Is Open carry a Threat on you?


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BlazingAngel01
April 17, 2008, 01:50 AM
I thought of open carry came up today when I was at the range today.
We looked over all the Laws to fit all the "well thats legal..... and so on.

We went over the books and found out all the legal jargon.

One of the guys that worked there fought it out that, you will have problems..Police involvement..and so on but then he said that if he sees anyone with a gun out side of a Range, Open carry or something in that line, That he would draw his gun and disarm them because "He feels like it is a threat and if needed he would open fire".:what:

Can he do that?

If you CCW guys ever saw someone open carry, would you do this?

What qualifies as a threat in the CCW training? (States that need it)

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Pat-inCO
April 17, 2008, 01:53 AM
Do you recognize the phrase "loose cannon"? Sounds like you were talking to one. Either that or he was REALLY pulling your leg. :rolleyes:

Cuda
April 17, 2008, 01:56 AM
Sounds like he has a death wish..

I see people open carry all the time, no threat to me. I usually find it's an opportunity to chat with another 2A supporter...

C

WayneConrad
April 17, 2008, 01:56 AM
That he would draw his gun and disarm them
Please encourage the gentleman to go back to CCW class, with special emphasis on the legal requirements for when his sidearm should be used.

Did you ask him how a holstered sidearm could possibly be a threat to his life?

Pat-inCO must be right. Those are the only two choices that make sense.

BlazingAngel01
April 17, 2008, 01:57 AM
loose cannon

Yeah and even at 21 Very immature.

jakemccoy
April 17, 2008, 01:59 AM
He may be gay and trying to show you he's worthy of your affection. Seriously, that's what I'd be thinking if I heard something so flamboyant and ridiculous.

=====

Depending on the attire, I'd probably assume an open carry person is a plain clothes cop. Macho dude at your range would do exactly the same. However, right now, he sounds like a wannabe cop.

GhostlyKarliion
April 17, 2008, 01:59 AM
...but then he said that if he sees anyone with a gun out side of a Range, Open carry or something in that line, That he would draw his gun and disarm them because "He feels like it is a threat and if needed he would open fire".

Can he do that?

Absolutely, positively, 110% certain that he CAN NOT do that legally.

In fact, if he were to try it, he would doubtlessly be charged with a laundry list of felonies. Especially if the OCer is fully within the law.

Charged with felonies if he is lucky that is, if the guy he draws on doesn't end his one man vigilantly crusade with a well placed self defense shot.

that is the most braindead thing I have heard all week.

you are threatened if the person who has a gun is pointing it at you or someone else wthout legal justifiable cause.

if you draw on someone OCing, then you have just broken the law, and the man who said he would do that needs to go take a few hours of training, like 80 of them.

Jorg Nysgerrig
April 17, 2008, 02:00 AM
If you CCW guys ever saw someone open carry, would you do this?

No.

What qualifies as a threat in the CCW training? (States that need it)
Not open carry.

mnrivrat
April 17, 2008, 02:19 AM
that is the most braindead thing I have heard all week.

That is the best fit I have read all week ! :D

Grizfire
April 17, 2008, 02:22 AM
What a Bozo! Seriously, did he happen to mention what it is about seeing someone OC thats such a threat?

What qualifies as a threat in the CCW training?

I don't need training outside of hunters education where I live, but I would think, uh, let me see...SOMEONE POINTS A GUN AT YOU. Which doesn't happen if someone is open carrying and minding their own business.

Aguila Blanca
April 17, 2008, 02:44 AM
One of the guys that worked there fought it out that, you will have problems..Police involvement..and so on but then he said that if he sees anyone with a gun out side of a Range, Open carry or something in that line, That he would draw his gun and disarm them because "He feels like it is a threat and if needed he would open fire".
He can try.

If he does, he will be guilty of assault with a deadly weapon, and he will asking for someone to shoot him in (legitimate) self-defense. Me carrying a pistol in a holster on my belt is not a threat to anyone. Him pointing a gun at me and issuing irrational and illegal orders is a lethal threat to me ... and I am entitled to respond with lethal force.

Somebody beat me to it. The guy must have a death wish.

Treo
April 17, 2008, 02:51 AM
I wouldn't try to draw on someone who was pointing a gun at me , unless I had no other option.

I would however, sue the pants off the idiot before it was all over.

What does your freind intend to do after he's disarmed the OCer?

BlazingAngel01
April 17, 2008, 03:08 AM
What does your freind intend to do after he's disarmed the OCer?

I don't know after he said that, he started to talk about his time in Iraq.

Dksimon
April 17, 2008, 03:13 AM
wow, I would say that he is looking to get himself shot.
Under no circumstances would I disarm someone who is clearly not a threat. Because if I thought he was a threat with it in his holster he is damn sure going to be a threat when i shove a gun in his face.

Treo
April 17, 2008, 03:20 AM
I would find someplace other than where he's at to be and be there!

Feud
April 17, 2008, 03:26 AM
he said that if he sees anyone with a gun out side of a Range, Open carry or something in that line, That he would draw his gun and disarm them because "He feels like it is a threat and if needed he would open fire".

Since the first person he is likely to see OCing would probably be a uniformed police officer, I can't help but think that were he to ever attempt such an insane proposition, the magnitude of how bad an idea it is would very quickly be brought to his attention. :D

loop
April 17, 2008, 04:02 AM
Open carry is legal, by state constitution, here in Arizona. I live rurally and it is pretty common. I don't see it every day, but I do see it every week. I did it myself yesterday.

If someone were to point a gun at me and disarm me I would assume he was up to something unpleasant. I may give up my gun, but I'd pop the sucker in the head with my BUG as soon as he took his eyes off of me and be completely justified.

In the Intermountain West shooting police officers has been considered justifiable if the individual believed they were a threat to their life.

I would never challenge a uniformed officer, unless their behavior was extremely out of character, but, if someone would decide to disarm me and I had broken no law, I'd neutralize the threat at the earliest opportunity.

In the rural parts of Arizona police don't mess with people about their guns. Last time I got stopped we spent two hours BSing about his guns and my guns. I even got a tour of the cop car so we could compare notes.

Draw on me and you can have my primary, you can even have my backup, but you better make darn sure you have my hole card before you look away.

Your friend has a bit too much machismo going for him. He is reckless and reminds me of an old acquaintance. Guy was too macho and always answered the door with a pistol clearly visible.

He got pistol whipped with his own gun. He was lucky. He did not end up perforated.

Give him a little friendly advice. Tell him to calm down and not be such an idiot.

BruceRDucer
April 17, 2008, 09:31 AM
"Give him a little friendly advice. Tell him to calm down and not be such an idiot."---Loop

LOL. Loop, I thought this was hilarious. Right on.

Here's what happens when I see someone with a weapon, as long as he or she is just going about their business.

Inside I do a mental blink, then a very sobering feeling. Then I feel very comfortable.

BruceRDucer
April 17, 2008, 09:32 AM
:uhoh:

Daemon688
April 17, 2008, 09:55 AM
So here I am, sitting at the grocery store/target/gas station/hell anywhere and going about my daily business. It just so happens that today I wanted to open carry. And some moron comes out to me with their gun drawn? What do you think happens?

Who ever you were talking to has a death wish and not a bit of common sense. If there's anyone who's a threat and needs to be disarmed is the man you're speaking of.

#shooter
April 17, 2008, 10:00 AM
The open carry person could be an off duty cop, I think he was pulling your leg as well.

El Tejon
April 17, 2008, 10:02 AM
And people wonder why I call CCWers "Batmen".:D

I hope we was pulling your leg.:uhoh:

Deanimator
April 17, 2008, 11:45 AM
He sounds like a dangerously unstable buffoon.

Pilot
April 17, 2008, 11:51 AM
No threat to me, but if you have a CCW why OC?

M2 Carbine
April 17, 2008, 11:57 AM
That he would draw his gun and disarm them because "He feels like it is a threat and if needed he would open fire".

Idiot.

Ghost Tracker
April 17, 2008, 12:08 PM
I don't know about Michigan, but here in Kentucky, the visual recognition of a handgun on someone's hip ISN'T A THREAT. However, DRAWING & AIMING of a handgun in response to that visual recognition CERTAINLY IS a threat. This guy is well-ahead of his challengers for a Darwin Award - Voted "Most Likely to be Shot Dead".

Voodoochile
April 17, 2008, 12:33 PM
To me any one I see with OC is not a threat & I would probably just glance & go about my business but if a person OC or CC decided to point the weapon at some one "especially me or my family" then my threat assesment would be greatly different..

In the hunt club there are quite a few of us that OC out there, no need to hide em & are easier to get ahold to if a yote or rabid dog comes at any of us.

armoredman
April 17, 2008, 12:43 PM
Open carried for years in AZ before CCW became legal. I worked inside the law, wearing a vest over the rig, so the bottom of the holster, clearly visible AS a holster, hung out in plain view. Any cop would recognize it, but most sheeple, would not readily understand what it was, and thusly not panic, as some of our winter visitors may be wont to do, coming from restrictive states. So sorry, get a grip.
BTW, every single business that asked me to leave for open carry is out of business. Not that I really had anything to do with it, but it did happen. Especially loved the KFC that asked me to unload my sidearm before ordering. Before I had my "huh?" out, my wife was spinning around and exiting. She was OCing too!

Sergeant Sabre
April 17, 2008, 12:45 PM
...if he sees anyone with a gun out side of a Range, Open carry or something in that line, That he would draw his gun and disarm them because "He feels like it is a threat and if needed he would open fire".

Can he do that?

I just had to stop here.

That's felonious assault. At best, he'd be going to jail. At worst, the other guy would shoot him and be completely justified in doing so.

In reality, he's probably a range blow-hard and wouldn't do a darn thing.

mtnmedic11
April 17, 2008, 12:53 PM
Homeboy needs to get to the VA and get some counseling if he's talking about his time in Iraq and shooting people with holstered open carried weapons. Sounds like a real winner...

JShirley
April 17, 2008, 12:57 PM
I've open carried before, in places where it was legal.

At such times, I and my companions went out of our way to be polite, tip extremely well, and be obviously outstanding citizens in general.

I was OC'ing in a restaurant in 2000 or so, when another customer, obviously upset that my group was carrying, complained to the waitress. The conversation couldn't be heard, but it was also obvious the waitress told her to mind her own damn business.

The waitress got a 50% tip. :)

If an unknown entity, in a public place, covers me with a firearm, I am going to feel my life is in danger. If that person orders me to disarm, I will feel an immediate threat.

If I think I'm going to die anyway, I'm going down fighting- I have nothing to lose, and a lot to gain.

(edit)I will say that my unit, when coming back from deployment to Afghanistan, was forced to watch some movies. One included propaganda that basically said "seek counseling if you feel the need to carry a gun". It didn't address whether that might have been one's normal custom before deployment- it was an obvious anti-gun bias.

John

Funderb
April 17, 2008, 01:13 PM
He seriously said that? This must be a beyond tastefully late april fools day joke.
Even here in sunny florida if I saw a person with a firearm, (obviously not OC, it's not legal here) I would pretty much ignore them, provided they weren't aiming at me. (in which case there is only flight of chastise)
What's wrong with this guy?
He went on to talk about Iraq? This is America, not iraq. He must have been required to leave Iraq under the specification of "section 8"
What a dumbpoop.


I do have a question-

Are you allowed to OC in another legal state when you hail from a state where it is illegal?

Tropical Buzz
April 17, 2008, 01:42 PM
First of all, your friend is either dangerously delusional or having fun pulling your leg. Maybe he has anger management issues and cannot express his disdain for open carry in a rational manner. At the risk of being flambeed, let's see if I can do any better.

In places where open carry is legal and relatively common, most would and should not bat an eye or feel threatened by someone in plain clothes walking around with a holstered gun in plain view. In areas where OC is not legal or common, we all walk past LEO's and armed security guards without a second thought - except like me, maybe a glance to check out what kind of gun is in the holster. So the problen is not the gun itself, as long as it is seen in a context that people accept as "normal", legitimate or justified.

I'll go out on a limb, however, and admit that in areas where a weapon is not necessarily a tool or feature of everyday life like farm, ranch, rural, snake, bear or mountain country, I just don't see the point of openly carrying a weapon OF ANY KIND when there is a good chance that it will ONLY serve to alarm or disturb most of the people around you even if they don't visibly freak out or audibly express their apprehension. That includes going to the cinema or a restaurant or shopping mall in an ordinary urban setting wearing a gun, large knife, bush machette, or even carrying a baseball bat. Why would anyone want to draw so much scrutiny and attention to themselves? What are you accomplishing that you can't do better (personal protection-wise) with a concealed weapon? If someone really needs a "LOOKITMEEE!!" fix, why not just jump up on a table, drop your pants and sing "Amazing Grace" at the top of your voice?

Two recent points that were expressed in favour of open carry are the feeling of confidence it brought and the activism approach of exercising your right to do so with the double benefit of sensitizing the sheeple to the sight of guns in the hands (or holsters) of ordinary citizens.

To the first, my reaction is that if someone needs to swagger around with a gun on his hip in a public, urban setting to feel confident, then there are other issues that require attention. It sounds more like a need for attention, respect and recognition more than anything else and begs one to wonder what they will do next when people don't openly react to the gun and they start feeling ignored or invisible again.

The activism point is far more understandable, given that all gun enthusiasts become at some point frustrated by the anti-gun mentality that a gun is an evil entity and it's mere presence in the hands of anyone but a policeman or a (friendly) soldier spells imminent doom to them and their families. So one decides to wear his gun openly and legally in areas where they know it might be perceived as unusual or out of place. "Exercising the Right", as they say.

In reality, all he is accomplishing is making the people around him uncomfortable and drawing attention to himself. Why? Because that is just the way society happens to be at this place and time. Much like a smoker who deliberately fires one up in an open place, but upwind of people he knows it's going to bother. To h-ll with them and their sheepish sensitivities!! I'm exercising my rights!

I am not saying that because that is the way things are we must simply accept it and make no attempt to influence change, but remember that real activism is a big job and walking around legaly making others uncomfortable is a far cry from the commitment to a high profile act civil disobedience combined with a rational, persuasive argument that polarizses supporters and influences a movement towards positive change. One is a self centered act of egotism and the other is a commitment of selfless dedication to a worthwhile cause.

I love guns and I always have, but I must admit that I don't think It's appropriate or necessary carry them around openly in quiet, public urban settings. What for?? :confused: I accept that this only my opinion and I in no way think it holds more validity than anyone else's. I also acccept the flames, but it would nicer to be persuaded by an argument that is simply better than mine.:)

glock530
April 17, 2008, 02:12 PM
Would you (or anyone) hold your tongue and keep your opinions to yourself if it made others around you uncomfortable to hear what you had to say on a subject?

Should your second amendment rights be any less important than your first amendment rights?

* For example:
If I were to say something like "Tropical Buzz, your opinion of open carry makes me really uncomfortable, would you mind refraining from posting things like that in the future" Something like that would probably not sit well with you, and I really doubt you'd stop posting things like that just because I felt uncomfortable with what you had to say.

Tropical Buzz
April 17, 2008, 02:26 PM
If what I had to say was declared offensive by a significant enough number of people, then, yes, I would be forced to at least examine my behavior to see if it is really out of line with what is acceptable here. As it is I am on a discussion board that invites on-topic debate without insults or offensive language, so I feel so far that my conduct is quite ok.

EDIT TO ADD:

Free speech rights are not unlimited or unrestricted. They are regulated by libel and slander laws as well as things like disturbing the peace and plain old decency, politeness and common sense.

armoredman
April 17, 2008, 02:26 PM
To the first, my reaction is that if someone needs to swagger around with a gun on his hip in a public, urban setting to feel confident, then there are other issues that require attention. It sounds more like a need for attention, respect and recognition more than anything else and begs one to wonder what they will do next when people don't openly react to the gun and they start feeling ignored or invisible again.
Judging by the above, you are from, born and raised, a location that does not allow open carry. If you had been, you would realize how insulting those statements are. When I open carry, I do not "swagger", nor did I do anything other than be on my best behavior, and usually well dressed, to avoid the impressions I made on others to reflect on the firearms owners as a whole. Yes, I actually did think that through... :)
There was no need for "respect" or "recognition" - I would rather NOT be recognized, but CCW was NOT an option at the time.
In reality, all he is accomplishing is making the people around him uncomfortable and drawing attention to himself.
No, I was carrying a tool. Nothing less, nothing more. Out here, it was recognized as such. In locations where OC is UNcommon, and statutes exist about "carrying to cause panic" or some such, then your residents may certainly call for help against a non-existant problem.

Dahwg
April 17, 2008, 02:35 PM
No, I was carrying a tool. Nothing less, nothing more. Out here, it was recognized as such. In locations where OC is UNcommon, and statutes exist about "carrying to cause panic" or some such, then your residents may certainly call for help against a non-existant problem.

Agreed. I see open carry all the time here, and this is quite the urban setting and probably the most left-leaning city in an otherwise conservative state.

I OC and do not swagger- in fact, that would be counterproductive. The only way OC will work as a tool of activism is if we do it in such a way as to make it seem like the most normal thing in the world. If we swagger or worse yet, act self-conscious about LEGALLY exercising our 2A rights, then there's no point, all we are doing is perpetuating a stereotype about Rambo gun owners.

For the record, it's been at or around 90 degrees since Saturday here- OC is just downright more comfortable than CC, so add that to the list of "why open carry" questions that come up on a regular basis.

jfountain2
April 17, 2008, 02:38 PM
BlazingAngel01
Quote:
What does your freind intend to do after he's disarmed the OCer?

I don't know after he said that, he started to talk about his time in Iraq.

Perhaps your friend experienced to many threats while in Iraq and needs to seek professional help to resolve those issues before he gets himself or someone else shot.

Mainsail
April 17, 2008, 02:57 PM
Öbut it would nicer to be persuaded by an argument that is simply better than mine.

Your concealed firearm does nothing to prevent a violent crime, it can only be used as a reaction to a crime already committed. I carry openly because I would rather not have to draw, or worse, shoot someone.

A concealed weapon cannot help you if the bad guy gets the drop on you either. Are you seriously going to pull your concealed pistol while a mugger has a knife on you or your wife? Maybe you can while heís leaving and shoot him in the back, but donít count on prevailing in court if you shoot someone who is no longer a threat.

I know several people who carry openly in Seattle and Tacoma, large cities in anyoneís book, and none of them swaggers or carries for the nonsensical reasons you cited. We carry openly and are well behaved, friendly, and responsible citizens.

If youíre going to have an opinion, great, but please endeavor to have an informed opinion.

bogie
April 17, 2008, 03:02 PM
When I see someone open carrying (rare around here - the po-po picks you up, and you get charged with brandishing...), I look for a couple of things...

Does the person look like the boomstick belongs? Or are they wearing it as an extension of their personality?

Does the person look a little "off?" Aggressive, etc?

Is the person wearing a "tactical" holster, tactical rest of the stuff? I don't wanna be around a wannabee who might be deciding if this is the moment to go nutso...

Way I see it, you can can have a personal protection tool, or you can have a political statement. But the two rarely merge.

Tropical Buzz
April 17, 2008, 03:18 PM
Judging by the above, you are from, born and raised, a location that does not allow open carry. If you had been, you would realize hoe insulting those statements are.

The "swagger" word was intended to illustrate the image of someone consciously and deliberately carrying openly in a setting in which OC is legal but uncommon and arguably inappropriate. I can see it being taken as an insulting generalization about all OC'ers and that was definitely not my intent. I stand corrected and I apologize.

Actually I grew up with guns and until 20 or so years ago gun ownership was largely relaxed and relatively un regulated. Since many people in the suburban and rural areas either lived or worked on relatively large sections of private land, guns carried openly were not uncommon at all, but only "out in the bush" as they say.

No, I was carrying a tool. Nothing less, nothing more.

Ok, so why a gun and not a cordless drill or a plunger? KIDDING...JUST KIDDING;)

Question; If you were OC'ing at, say, a restaurant and it became obvious to you that there was no immediate threat to your safety but a lot of people were looking nervous or uncomfortable because of the gun, would you continue to OC there next time you went?

JesseL
April 17, 2008, 03:23 PM
Way I see it, you can can have a personal protection tool, or you can have a political statement. But the two rarely merge.

:confused:
I don't quite follow you there.

If I choose to carry the most convenient and effective personal protection tool I can manage (and I do); the political statement that "I believe in my natural right to defend myself to the best of my ability and with the best available tool, and do so unashamedly" seems to follow pretty naturally.

I can't really see how the tool compromises the statement, or the statement compromises the tool. They are very complementary.

JesseL
April 17, 2008, 03:32 PM
Question; If you were OC'ing at, say, a restaurant and it became obvious to you that there was no immediate threat to your safety but a lot of people were looking nervous or uncomfortable because of the gun, would you continue to OC there next time you went?

If you were eating at a restaurant where all the other patrons were a different ethnicity than yourself and your presence was clearly making some of the others nervous or uncomfortable, would you apply makeup to disguise your skin tone before you went back?

WayneConrad
April 17, 2008, 03:37 PM
Question; If you were OC'ing at, say, a restaurant and it became obvious to you that there was no immediate threat to your safety but a lot of people were looking nervous or uncomfortable because of the gun, would you continue to OC there next time you went?

Question; If you were black at, say, a restaurant and it became obvious to you that there was no immediate threat to your safety but a lot of people were looking nervous or uncomfortable because of your skin, would you continue to show your skin there the next time you went?

What? There's a difference between your unalienable right to self defense, that you were born with, and the skin you were born with, that you should have to hide one and not the other? Convince me.

Ok, maybe you have trouble with that one. Let me make it easier for you.

Question; If you were Christian at, say, a restaurant and it became obvious to you that there was no immediate threat to your safety but a lot of people were looking nervous or uncomfortable because of your cross, would you continue to show your cross there the next time you went?

WayneConrad
April 17, 2008, 03:40 PM
JesseL and I are not psychically linked. I swear it.

glock530
April 17, 2008, 03:47 PM
IMHO, me not doing something thats legal and my right just because I might offend someones delicate sensibilities is the most absurd thing I can think of.

I neither swagger nor do I picture myself as some sort of urban Rambo but I will OC as long as it is legal.

As much as I hate the word "Sheeple" it's hard not to have it come to mind when I encounter conformist attitudes.

Tropical Buzz
April 17, 2008, 04:09 PM
Your concealed firearm does nothing to prevent a violent crime, it can only be used as a reaction to a crime already committed. I carry openly because I would rather not have to draw, or worse, shoot someone.

A concealed weapon cannot help you if the bad guy gets the drop on you either. Are you seriously going to pull your concealed pistol while a mugger has a knife on you or your wife? Maybe you can while heís leaving and shoot him in the back, but donít count on prevailing in court if you shoot someone who is no longer a threat.

If you live in or frequent a place where you seriously feel that you need to carry a gun openly to dissuade someone from attacking you, it may be wise consider a change of venue.

Are YOU seriously going to pull your UNCONCEALED PISTOL while a mugger who gets the drop on you has a knife on you or your wife??? Ruling out a ridiculously incompetent mugger and granted a slightly faster draw depending on your method of carry and your level of skill/training/practice, in the situation you describe where your situational awareness has already failed (overconfidence in your OC weapon?) and with the attacker in position to deliver an immediate strike - tell me what's the difference? A cool head and maybe your unarmed combat ability might well be more important than your gun in that scenario. I will agree that only a determined or irrational mugger (but... many of them are) would knowingly attack a visibly armed man.

If a criminal with a concealed weapon was casing the joint and saw you eating crab claws with your back to him and a gun on your hip, he has the advantage of knowing your hand and targeting you first while the un assuming looking CC'er at the next table might take him out when he makes his move. The elements of surprise and situational awareness are, to me, far more valuable in almost any scenario than standing out like a beacon and drawing unnecessary attention.

I repeat that my opinion only refers to places where OC may be legal but NOT common practice.

If youíre going to have an opinion, great, but please endeavor to have an informed opinion.

I'll always endevour to have an informed opinion even if it means my opinion being changed by someone with a better argument. Yours wasn't it.;)

CountGlockula
April 17, 2008, 04:13 PM
No, because either he/she is an undercover officer or a law abiding citizen practicing their rights.

That range guy watches too many Rambo movies.

Tropical Buzz
April 17, 2008, 04:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tropical Buzz
Question; If you were OC'ing at, say, a restaurant and it became obvious to you that there was no immediate threat to your safety but a lot of people were looking nervous or uncomfortable because of the gun, would you continue to OC there next time you went?

If you were eating at a restaurant where all the other patrons were a different ethnicity than yourself and your presence was clearly making some of the others nervous or uncomfortable, would you apply makeup to disguise your skin tone before you went back?

Quote:
Question; If you were OC'ing at, say, a restaurant and it became obvious to you that there was no immediate threat to your safety but a lot of people were looking nervous or uncomfortable because of the gun, would you continue to OC there next time you went?

Question; If you were black at, say, a restaurant and it became obvious to you that there was no immediate threat to your safety but a lot of people were looking nervous or uncomfortable because of your skin, would you continue to show your skin there the next time you went?

What? There's a difference between your unalienable right to self defense, that you were born with, and the skin you were born with, that you should have to hide one and not the other? Convince me.

Ok, maybe you have trouble with that one. Let me make it easier for you.

Question; If you were Christian at, say, a restaurant and it became obvious to you that there was no immediate threat to your safety but a lot of people were looking nervous or uncomfortable because of your cross, would you continue to show your cross there the next time you went?

LMAO! Good point, but a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. My ethnicity and skin colour (assuming your assumptions are correct) are things I cannot change as opposed to a deliberate and conscious behavior that I can choose to do or not depending among other things on the effect it has on others.

I have no trouble understanding you Wayne.

IMHO, me not doing something thats legal and my right just because I might offend someones delicate sensibilities is the most absurd thing I can think of.

There are no laws that I know of against breaking wind in an elevator:uhoh:, but I dont feel compelled to just because I can and I am inclined to avoid doing it if at all possible even though it is within my rights.

armoredman
April 17, 2008, 04:28 PM
T Buzz, let me clue you in on something. First, I work with criminals 5 days a week. Criminals tend to be cowardly, unless in packs. I have seen MANY aggressive inmates, once removed from thier "backing" of thier buddies, deflate to something pea sized, sometimes blubbering like little kids. Some don't but many do. Criminals do not WANT thier tender pink skin punctured, so they run in packs, to minimize which one of them gets hurt slightly, while dealing major hurt to thier hapless victim. Even Chuck Norris had to have his TV enemies come at him one at a time...better filmography that way. ;)
So, criminals are less likely to attack someone who is open carrying AND in condition orange. If you are OC, and in white, you might as well leave it at home. You'll be telling the Responding Officer, (if you're alive), "I never saw him coming!" A mugger with a knife, who knows you have a gun, (he is losing to begin with), and he knows you see him - he's likely gone, looking for easier prey. Yes, it CAN happen that you will be targeted FOR the sidearm, but less likely.
As for the resteraunt analogy, it was three separate resteraunts I was asked to leave - all three franchises are out of business. If I am not welcome there armed, I am not welcome there period.
Lastly, how do I know there is no threat? Lubbys' in Texas was very peaceful, right before Suzanne Gratia-Hupp's parents were gunned down in front of her by a homicidal maniac...while her firearm rested comfortably 100 yards away.

glock530
April 17, 2008, 04:32 PM
What I truly fail to understand here is why an inanimate object (firearm) makes people uncomfortable.

If you saw someone walking down the street with a tool belt on and a hammer dangling from it would it make you nervous, he could just as easily assault you with the hammer. Should we call for an end to the open carry of hammers? Maybe it's a pen in his pocket (You could put an eye out with those).

If people say OC is not socially acceptable, maybe thats true simply because we don't exercise our rights to make it acceptable.

Fish828
April 17, 2008, 04:33 PM
i hope that guy was just playing or else he sounds like he's a little off his rocker. as long as the weapon remains holstered and the individual's hand remains off of the weapon, i see no problem with open carry.

Eightball
April 17, 2008, 04:35 PM
That guy's nuts. If he drew on you, unprovoked.....methinks bad things could happen to him. He drew first, after all.

JesseL
April 17, 2008, 04:38 PM
If you live in or frequent a place where you seriously feel that you need to carry a gun openly to dissuade someone from attacking you, it may be wise consider a change of venue.

The same goes for if you live in or frequent a place where you seriously feel you need to keep a concealed weapon to defend yourself.

We all do our best to avoid trouble when possible, and some of us feel that an openly carried sidearm is a valuable extra layer of trouble avoidance.

If a criminal with a concealed weapon was casing the joint and saw you eating crab claws with your back to him and a gun on your hip, he has the advantage of knowing your hand and targeting you first while the un assuming looking CC'er at the next table might take him out when he makes his move. The elements of surprise and situational awareness are, to me, far more valuable in almost any scenario than standing out like a beacon and drawing unnecessary attention.

You would sit in a restaurant where your back was exposed and you couldn't watch the doors?:eek:

The elements of deterrence and situational awareness are IMHO at least equal to surprise and situational awareness. It's always better to avoid a fight than to win one.

In nature, practically every creature that is equipped with a powerful defensive tool goes to significant lengths to advertise that it is dangerous and not to be trifled with - think poisonous frogs and insects, blowfish, skunks, antlered/horned mamals, etc. I believe that there is a valuable lesson in this.

Tropical Buzz
April 17, 2008, 05:12 PM
In nature, practically every creature that is equipped with a powerful defensive tool goes to significant lengths to advertise that it is dangerous and not to be trifled with - think poisonous frogs and insects, blowfish, skunks, antlered/horned mamals, etc. I believe that there is a valuable lesson in this.

That's the truth. Underwater or in the rainforest, you are generally wise to avoid trifling with or trying to eat anything that is too flamboyant or brightly coloured because there's a good chance that they're poisonous or venomous. So - can I interpret that when you OC you are in fact advertising, like the critters that you refer to, and intentionally standing out with your display of weaponry to show others that you're dangerous and not to be messed with? That is what I have a personal issue with. I can easily relate to the practicality of open carry of a gun as a tool in certain environments. The whole advertizing and attention thing is what I cannot relate to. It works in the wild when you can be certain that the second you are vulnerable, you WILL be eaten. Has society gotten that bad already?. I feel it's more effective to emulate the profile the REAL dangerous animals in nature - The ones that blend in and remain silent and hopefully unseen until it is the right time to strike.

BTW did you read my reply to to the ethnicity / skin colour argument?

Tropical Buzz
April 17, 2008, 05:19 PM
If you saw someone walking down the street with a tool belt on and a hammer dangling from it would it make you nervous, he could just as easily assault you with the hammer. Should we call for an end to the open carry of hammers? Maybe it's a pen in his pocket (You could put an eye out with those).

If I saw someone walk into a restaurant carrying a hammer, he would certainly get and hold my attention. At least until he started repairing the furniture.:D

WayneConrad
April 17, 2008, 05:24 PM
TropicalBuzz, You can hide your skin color through makeup and clothing. How is that different than hiding your sidearm?

You also ignored my second hypothetical:

Question; If you were Christian at, say, a restaurant and it became obvious to you that there was no immediate threat to your safety but a lot of people were looking nervous or uncomfortable because of your cross, would you continue to show your cross there the next time you went?

You have every right to your religion and its symbols. Are you going to cover it up because the people around you don't like it? Would you expect anyone to?

Tropical Buzz
April 17, 2008, 05:40 PM
It was apples to oranges when you first posted it and it still is now. Unavoidable physical characteristics vs. a deliberate, conscious behaviour. As for the religious argument, most Catholics or Christians I know are not instantly recognizable. You may not even notice the cross unless you steal a peep down their shirts. If someone wears a cross huge and flamboyant enough to attract the attention of strangers, then they fall into the same conscious, deliberate attention drawing behaviour pattern that we are discussing.

Race, Religion ...what's next? Politics?:D

JesseL
April 17, 2008, 05:43 PM
So - can I interpret that when you OC you are in fact advertising, like the critters that you refer to, and intentionally standing out with your display of weaponry to show others that you're dangerous and not to be messed with?

Not exactly. I don't open carry in a way that's particularly flamboyant or anything. I just wear an ordinary gun in a tasteful leather holster. I try not to look like a victim. I stand straight, smile, and look people in the eye.

That is what I have a personal issue with - the whole advertizing and attention thing.

The funny thing is, it's not really obvious to most people. Very few people seem to notice open carry at all. The ones who do notice don't react much. In my experience, the only people likely to be examining you that closely are the predators sizing up their prey.

It works in the wild when you can be certain that the second you are vulnerable, you WILL be eaten. Has society gotten that bad already?

It doesn't matter how civilized (or uncivilized) society is. There will always be a dangerous minority who don't hold any qualms about robbing/raping/injuring/killing others, and only await the opportunity.

I feel it's more effective to emulate the profile the REAL dangerous animals in nature - The ones that blend in and remain silent and hopefully unseen until it is the right time to strike.

Those are predators that survive by killing weaker prey. I have no desire to be a predator. I just want to go about my life unmolested.

BTW did you read my reply to to the ethnicity / skin colour argument?

Yes.
1. You could use makeup to change your skin color to avoid offending people that don't like it the way it is. The question is, why should you? Being offended by skin color or a visibly carried defensive weapon is a sign of irrational and prejudicial thinking.

2. Breaking wind in an elevator produces an unavoidable odor that is inherently and objectively offensive. People have good reasons to avoid smells redolent of feces.

The sight of a firearm is inherently neutral. It is a tool that may be used for good or evil (though if you intend to use it for evil, you'll probably hide it to avoid alerting your victim). The only reason to find it offensive is due to irrational and misplaced bias.

WayneConrad
April 17, 2008, 05:56 PM
If someone wears a cross huge and flamboyant enough to attract the attention of strangers, then they fall into the same conscious, deliberate attention drawing behaviour pattern that we are discussing.
So, small cross, OK, large cross, bad.

Check.

What about a large head scarf? What about a yamaka?

Mainsail
April 17, 2008, 05:58 PM
If you live in or frequent a place where you seriously feel that you need to carry a gun openly to dissuade someone from attacking you, it may be wise consider a change of venue.

As much as I would like the criminal scumbags to stay in their own areas, it would be a violation of their civil rights to demand they do so.

Are YOU seriously going to pull your UNCONCEALED PISTOL while a mugger who gets the drop on you has a knife on you or your wife???

Yes, absolutely. He might get one slash or stab in, but I will get one to nine rounds of .45 caliber Federal HSTs into him. Of course your scenario is not even close to realistic and hardly worthy of a response.

If a criminal with a concealed weapon was casing the joint and saw you eating crab claws with your back to him and a gun on your hip, he has the advantage of knowing your hand and targeting you first while the un assuming looking CC'er at the next table might take him out when he makes his move.

Again, this is a not a realistic scenario. Every study, not most, but every study Iíve ever read on criminal behavior indicate that a bad guy (or girl) will go to great lengths to avoid an armed person. Seriously now, is it any less than ridiculous to think a criminal is going to murder someone just for the opportunity to rob the Crab Shack? What planet are you from? As I said before, the Ďother guyí you mention with the CCW can only react to the robbery. Can you shoot a man for demanding money from the cashier at the Crab Shack? If heís facing away from you talking to the cashier and only motioned to the gun in his waistband, you wonít even know heís armed. The realistic outcome of your scenario has the bad guy seeing my .45 and departing quickly for easier pastures, and the Crab Shack does not get robbed at all.

The elements of surprise and situational awareness are, to me, far more valuable in almost any scenario than standing out like a beacon and drawing unnecessary attention.

Sneaky. You somehow attach ďsurprise and situational awarenessĒ as though situational awareness is only the territory of someone with a concealed weapon. I didnít rack up 5600+ flight hours in military heavies without a keen understanding of what situational awareness is. A personís SA is not dependant on their manner of carry, thus your argument is moot. As for surprise, it sounds like youíre saying you want to be in a criminal encounter, or that itís preferable to be in a criminal encounter rather than deter the criminal in the first place. Thatís a bizarre logic.

I'll always endevour to have an informed opinion even if it means my opinion being changed by someone with a better argument. Yours wasn't it.

I guess itís true; you can lead a horse to water but you canít make him drink. If you choose to put the weight of your argument on outrageous and extremely unlikely scenarios, then I expect your mind will never change.

Tropical Buzz
April 17, 2008, 06:02 PM
The elements of deterrence and situational awareness are IMHO at least equal to surprise and situational awareness. It's always better to avoid a fight than to win one.

Jesse, sorry I missed that point in my last reply. It's a good point. The advantage value of the deterrence factor vs. the surprise factor and how it stacks up against being a beacon of attention is quite arguable and probably, in the end, relative to the situation that presents itself.

.cheese.
April 17, 2008, 06:28 PM
open carry doesn't bother me in the least.

The threat you should worry about is the one you won't see.

Tropical Buzz
April 17, 2008, 06:43 PM
As much as I would like the criminal scumbags to stay in their own areas, it would be a violation of their civil rights to demand they do so.

LMAO. You funny.


Of course your scenario is not even close to realistic and hardly worthy of a response.

Yes, and yet you still responded. Besides I was only responding to a scenario presented by another poster.


Seriously now, is it any less than ridiculous to think a criminal is going to murder someone just for the opportunity to rob the Crab Shack? What planet are you from?

How is that any more ridiculous than a criminal murdering someone to rob the 7-11?:confused: Third rock from the sun. :neener: You REALLY funny.


Sneaky. You somehow attach ďsurprise and situational awarenessĒ as though situational awareness is only the territory of someone with a concealed weapon. I didnít rack up 5600+ flight hours in military heavies without a keen understanding of what situational awareness is. A personís SA is not dependant on their manner of carry, thus your argument is moot. As for surprise, it sounds like youíre saying you want to be in a criminal encounter, or that itís preferable to be in a criminal encounter rather than deter the criminal in the first place. Thatís a bizarre logic..

Chill. This is not about YOU and your umpteen flight hours in military heavies. Bully for you. I never implied YOU or anyone else was lacking in SA. Nor did I imply that SA was in any way related to method of carry. If you were'nt so keen on looking for an angle to turn this into a fight you would have understood that my position is that I would prefer to be situationally aware and inconspicuous than the center of attention whether situationally aware or not. Thus your attack is unfounded and predictable, therefore moot and ineffective.

I have aknowleged the value of the deterrence argument though I am not convinced that it is worth the downside of being the only one walking around with a gun on my hip in a public place where that is not the norm.


Originally Posted by Tropical Buzz
I'll always endevour to have an informed opinion even if it means my opinion being changed by someone with a better argument. Yours wasn't it.

I guess itís true; you can lead a horse to water but you canít make him drink. If you choose to put the weight of your argument on outrageous and extremely unlikely scenarios, then I expect your mind will never change.

Your belligerant and confrontational attitude goes a long way towards convincing me of one thing: you do seem like the type who wants to OC for all the wrong reasons. My opinion can definitely be influenced by a superior argument, but you will never insult or bully me into changing my mind about anything, no matter how much you foam at the mouth. Yours definitely wasn't it - in fact you might want to consider handing the guns in for safe keeping until you learn to deal with minor disagreements without feeling threatened and getting all worked up and aggressive. Good luck with that.:cool:

Mainsail
April 17, 2008, 06:55 PM
I was being neither belligerent nor confrontational. What you may not realize is that every time open carry is mentioned in these forums someone comes along to trot out the same tired horse. It didnít run then and it isnít going to run now.


Öin fact you might want to consider handing the guns in for safe keeping until you learn to deal with minor disagreements without feeling threatened and getting all worked up and aggressive.
I donít know where youíre seeing that, unless you feel threatened by the fact that you are not supporting your end of the debate. My writing was never meant to convey an attitude of anger or insult. I was saying that your arguments are based on non-typical scenarios, things that simply donít happen, and thatís a silly way to discuss an issue. You seem almost unnaturally sensitive.

Additionally, you never responded to this:

As for surprise, it sounds like youíre saying you want to be in a criminal encounter, or that itís preferable to be in a criminal encounter rather than deter the criminal in the first place. Thatís a bizarre logic.

Tropical Buzz
April 17, 2008, 07:58 PM
Wayne and Jesse and others - I agree that many people do have an irrational and unreasonable fear of guns. And you are right that judging the motives of people that own guns is no less a form of prejudice than judging someone based on their skin colour or ethnicity. These points are not lost on me but outside of a practical need to OC in certain environments and the activism angle which I question the effectiveness of, what I originally questioned was the need or the desire to carry openly in a place where it is unusual, generally considered out of place and likely to cause discomfort to others. The deterrent factor holds water but with all the other things we can do do reduce our viability as targets, is it worth the downsides? And isn't it worthwhile to want to avoid causing discomfort to others when it is not absolutely necessary to do so? Personal choices, I guess and to each his own. Overall, it's still not for me, but I am less negative about OC than I was when this discussion began.

Bandanas, etc? Wear what you like. Just be aware that certain symbols and modes of dress come with certain images and reactions that may or may not be applicable to the real you. Make your choices and live with the consequences, I say. Ethnicity also comes with the same stereotypes (I am more or less "black" by the way) but you cannot really change what you are and shouldn't want to. You can absolutely change how you behave, though, and at the end of the day that's what really matters, doesn't it?
What's a yamaka again?:D

MAINSAIL
I was being neither belligerent nor confrontational.

AND

I don’t know where you’re seeing that,

AND

You seem almost unnaturally sensitive.

What planet did you say you're from again?


Additionally, you never responded to this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
As for surprise, it sounds like you’re saying you want to be in a criminal encounter, or that it’s preferable to be in a criminal encounter rather than deter the criminal in the first place. That’s a bizarre logic.

You're right about one thing. I didn't respond to that.

Sato Ord
April 17, 2008, 08:08 PM
To get back to the original post for a moment.

The guy who says he would draw down on anyone he saw Open Carrying would be wrong, possibly dead wrong. If he wins the gun fight he'll most likely get himself a new lover named Bubba.

Of course he sounds like a mouthy kid who needs to stop watching too much TV and get a real life. Most likely he would do nothing and mind his own business. Don't take braggarts like that too seriously.

Now back to your regularly scheduled argument that I seem to have interrupted.

Gunnerpalace
April 17, 2008, 08:12 PM
No problem with me, Iam more concerned about the person carrying.

gym
April 17, 2008, 08:25 PM
Anyone who points a gun at anyone for no reason, who isn't a law enforcement officer plays a dangerous game. Like many said the guy's trying to impress you, be congenial and avoid future conversations. Chances are he won't be in your life much longer.

JesseL
April 17, 2008, 08:32 PM
, what I originally questioned was the need or the desire to carry openly in a place where it is unusual, generally considered out of place and likely to cause discomfort to others.

To be fair; Wayne and I live in a region where although it's not exactly common; open carry isn't particularly unusual either. There are undoubtedly some people who feel uncomfortable in the presence of an openly carried sidearm here.

The reason I don't worry about causing people discomfort, is because I'm not causing their discomfort - they are. Me and my gun aren't doing anything to cause discomfort. All the discomfort they feel is due to their internal mental processes. There is an important distinction here. If I (to use your example) break wind in an elevator, play music too loud in public, step on someone's toes, or cut someone off in traffic; I have done something that directly and tangibly infringes on their rights. Alternatively if someone takes offense at my clothing, skin color, religion, or sidearm; they have chosen to be upset by something that they could just as easily ignore.

There is no limit to what some people might decide is offensive, but I don't have any obligation to placate them. As long as what I do isn't having an objective, tangible, negative effect on their rights; it's not my problem. This may sound callous or self-centered, but I try to extend the same courtesy to others. I don't make a fuss and try to manipulate the behavior of others when I can just as easily ignore them. There are people who would gladly force my wife to wear a burkha or insist that I do no work on Sundays - I feel no less obligated to kowtow to those people than I do to the people who would throw a hissy fit over my pistol.

The deterrent factor holds water but with all the other things we can do do reduce our viability as targets, is it worth the downsides?

In my experience, the downsides are largely imaginary.

Tropical Buzz
April 17, 2008, 09:13 PM
Not much to argue with there. At this point it simply boils down to choices.

On a lighter note, after my last post, a friend who is staying with us came in and told me a large rat was sneaking onto the patio by the pool to steal chunks of bread that fell out of the bird feeder. I got my old trusty .22 cal air rifle out and waited quietly at a table about 25' away on the other side of the pool. Sure enough, he came back but it was difficult to get a shot off because he was darting for the bread and I was aiming into a dark background, making it hard to see the front sight. I decided to sight a little to the right of the next chunk closest to his hiding spot behind a planter. He darted again and I fired. Perfect head shot. No suffering.

Now, I could have deterred that rat by standing there with the gun and making myself visible but I couldn't do it forever and he would just choose another time and place to commit his crime. So there! OC'ing would not have worked!:D
Just kidding, guys! Honest! I don't want to apply this scenario to real life. Please believe me!! (it was a great shot, though.)
Actually, I did enjoy most of the debate and came away with a slightly more enlightened perspective.

abrink
April 17, 2008, 09:20 PM
I open carry myself so i wouldn't see another OC'er as a threat. I would see the guy waving a gun at me as a threat and a few well placed COM shots would reduce the threat. Seriously if that guy say me OC'ing and he did that i would take action and i would be in the right to do so.

3rd Generation American
April 17, 2008, 09:33 PM
I'm a member on another site (calguns.net) that is in Ca. and this is one post of what a bunch of brave 2A people did; http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=96226
As you see it can be done with out problems

WayneConrad
April 17, 2008, 10:12 PM
I'm a member on another site (calguns.net) that is in Ca. and this is one post of what a bunch of brave 2A people did; http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ad.php?t=96226
As you see it can be done with out problems
Open carry in California! Who woulda thunk it. I am seriously impressed.

Hey. Guys. Follow that link. Great reading. These guys replaced yackity-yack with "dunnit!" in a place most of us never would have thought possible. And nothing happened.

plexreticle
April 17, 2008, 10:18 PM
That he would draw his gun and disarm them because "He feels like it is a threat and if needed he would open fire".

Wow, that a good way to get yourself killed.

bogie
April 17, 2008, 11:31 PM
What worries me is the BS competitive aggression you see in a lot of folks... If you're wearing a gun -and- wearing an attitude that says "just try to mess with me," that's fundamentally wrong.

Guys, take it from an old hippie... mellow out, and the world will flow to you... get uptight, and the world flows away...

plexreticle
April 17, 2008, 11:40 PM
Guys, take it from an old hippie... mellow out, and the world will flow to you... get uptight, and the world flows away...

Amen brother.

Blacksmoke
April 18, 2008, 12:20 AM
Question: does Open Carry bother me?

Only if the wearer is Ike Clanton, John Wesley Hardin, or Joaquin Murieta.

SsevenN
April 18, 2008, 12:34 AM
What worries me is the BS competitive aggression you see in a lot of folks... If you're wearing a gun -and- wearing an attitude that says "just try to mess with me," that's fundamentally wrong.



Come get some you old hippie!:D

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk137/SsevenN_photo/Blackhawk.jpg

Bezoar
April 18, 2008, 01:04 AM
someone walking down the sidewalk looking at coffee shops while having their glock exposed, ala open carry in a nice galco holster on the hip is NOT A THREAT.
someone running at you then pulling a gun on ya, and demanding you hand over personal property + mugging armed robbery, agravated assault, and in most states legally allowed shooting.

JesseL
April 18, 2008, 01:04 AM
What worries me is the BS competitive aggression you see in a lot of folks... If you're wearing a gun -and- wearing an attitude that says "just try to mess with me," that's fundamentally wrong.

I absolutely agree, and I hope I never gave any impression otherwise.

I do my very best to be calm, polite and friendly while OC'ing, as well as striving to avoid the appearance of being a victim. Just a pleasant, friendly, and confident guy with a gun.

CajunBass
April 18, 2008, 09:52 AM
I open carry alot. If someone came at me with a gun yelling "Citizens arrest, citizens arrest." (You gotta be old to remember that.) I don't know rather I'd draw down on him, or laugh out loud. I really don't.

The only comments I've ever gotten to open carry are along the lines of "Can I do that too?" Well once a fellow did ask "What kind of 1911 is that? A Colt?"

glock530
April 18, 2008, 10:47 AM
When I open carry I have no more of an attitude than if it were my cell phone on my hip instead of my Glock. How you perceive yourself goes a long way towards how others perceive you.

MiddleAgedKen
April 18, 2008, 03:26 PM
CajunBass (any relation to Ernest T. ;)), I seem to hear the voice of Jim Nabors yelling "Citizens' arrest! Citizens' arrest!"

As for the individual referenced by the OP: "Lighten up, Francis," comes to mind.

Dave Workman
April 18, 2008, 04:51 PM
Only if the wearer is Ike Clanton, John Wesley Hardin, or Joaquin Murieta.

They are all dead. Probably not much of a threat OC or CC anymore

Ike had at least the good sense to NOT carry either way on Oct. 26, 1881 at about 2 o'clock in the afternoon.

Poor ol' Joaquin ended up with his head in a glass jar in a saloon.

Hardin, of course...never snore in his proximity, and don't stand next to him while he's shooting craps in anyplace called the Acme Saloon if a galoot named Selman is lurking around.

fearless leader
April 18, 2008, 06:04 PM
Once, I was on the way home from my armor car job, an developed a migrane headache. I stopped at one of the stores with which we were contracted, to get a Goody's Powder, still carrying my nickel Colt Cobra on my side. My head hurt so bad, I had forgotten about it.:uhoh:

I was there maybe 2 minutes, the clerks there knew me and were used to seeing us. Just then, a Jacksonville Sheriff's Officer stopped me and said,"You can check with your supervisor on this, but I don't think you're supposed to be wearing your gun off the clock." :rolleyes: He was right, of course, so I picked it up from my holster and I saw his eyes get big as saucers!:what: He made no move to react, other than to say, "Oh ****!" with his body language. I dropped the Colt in my pocket, and got in my car. He was still stunned when I drove away.

Another one in Flagler County, pulled me over for speeding, and was so surprised to see an armed individual step out of the van marked Armored Car, that he forgot to put his car in park and nearly hit me and the van. It was comical.:)

In Virginia, cops saw me open carry and didn't say anything to me. I was walking on the Downtown Mall in Charlottesville, right past Charlottesville Police that weren't alarmed in the least. :cool:

It was not a detriment for me, but I wonder about the mindset of the police not even orienting their hands toward their weapon. I fear that someday, they may come on a real deal and not go home.:(

Sage of Seattle
April 18, 2008, 07:31 PM
What worries me is the BS competitive aggression you see in a lot of folks... If you're wearing a gun -and- wearing an attitude that says "just try to mess with me," that's fundamentally wrong.

Guys, take it from an old hippie... mellow out, and the world will flow to you... get uptight, and the world flows away...

Geez, I like you bogie, and I like what you say especially when activism is needed, but this... man I hope I'm reading you wrong here.

We all (theoretically) carry guns here, but to say that just because your shirt tail is covering your .45, you're walking the path of the Buddha throwing peace signs everywhere you go, while an openly carried gun is only for uptight, angry people with something to prove.

Like, wow, man. That's a pretty heavy trip you're laying on us, bro!

bogie
April 18, 2008, 07:49 PM
I think you -are- reading me wrong... But if you're wearing a gun as a political statement, that's already one step on the "competitive aggression" side... If you've got an attitude going where you're HOPING that someone's gonna make something of it, that's a bad thing, and will cause bad karma. If you do not have the attitude, I'll guess that the good vibes emanating from your persona will calm otherwise twitchy folks...

If you are uptight and angry, don't open carry. When you strap on a weapon, you need to put your attitude in the safe. And if you're open carrying, you need to double-lock the safe.

Sage of Seattle
April 18, 2008, 08:01 PM
Sorry then, my bad. Sometimes it's hard to tell without the rest of the 90% of unspoken communication! :)

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