CCI #34 primers


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GarandOwner
April 17, 2008, 02:31 AM
Does anyone know of a place online that has CCI #34 primers in stock? I cant seem to find any and I need some to reload for my Garand.

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dmftoy1
April 17, 2008, 05:41 AM
Powder Valley says they have them in stock:

http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

Have a good one,
Dave

ReloaderFred
April 17, 2008, 10:37 AM
They had some at Sportsman's Warehouse in Salem, OR, the last time I was there. In fact, CCI primers were all they had.

Hope this helps.

Fred

WayneConrad
April 17, 2008, 10:43 AM
I think I got mine from Graf & Sons, a ways back. I think these are the critters (http://www.grafs.com/product/184981).

I forget... are primers hazmat of some kind, or do they get shipped normally?

LotI
April 17, 2008, 03:07 PM
I was just at Recob's (http://www.recobstargetshop.com)yesterday and they had them on the shelf...which means they probably have tons in the warehouse.

They are knee deep in CCI since that's what's available right now.

Sunray
April 17, 2008, 03:25 PM
Regular large rifle primers will work just fine. CCI #34 primers are a marketing gimmick. They're just a magnum primer. Mind you, you'll have to work up the load again.

WayneConrad
April 17, 2008, 04:29 PM
Regular large rifle primers will work just fine. CCI #34 primers are a marketing gimmick. They're just a magnum primer. Mind you, you'll have to work up the load again.
I've got at least one reloading manual with a strong caution that the NATO spec primers must be used in firearms with floating firing pins, specifically mentioning CCI #34. I ain't saying you're wrong, but I'd sure like to know what you have to back that up before I ignore that caution.

So are you saying that the CCI #34 aren't NATO spec? They're no harder than usual?

Jacka L Ope
April 17, 2008, 05:32 PM
The CCI #34 "Arsenal Primer", which the ballistic equivalent to the CCI #250 Magnum primer, is designed specifically for 7.62mm NATO, 30-06 and 7.62 x 39mm ammo due primer sensitivity is a more important consideration in military autoloading rifles than in bolt or single shot rifles. Mil-spec or equivalent primers have thicker or harder cups, a military type priming mixture and lower overall sensitivity.

LotI
April 17, 2008, 05:49 PM
Regular large rifle primers will work just fine. CCI #34 primers are a marketing gimmick. They're just a magnum primer. Mind you, you'll have to work up the load again.

Sources please?

WayneConrad
April 18, 2008, 02:00 AM
For reference, here is the warning reference CCI #34 primers, from Speer Number 13, p. 331:
NOTE: Many variants of the SKS rifle lack a firing pin retractor spring. These may inadvertently slam-fire (the cartridge fires as the bolt closes). High-seated primers, misfitted firing pins, incorrect headspaces and dirty chambers can contribute to this phenomenon. Seat all primers .003" to .005" below flush and keep the chamber clean. If your rifle slam-fires, discontinue its use immediately until you can have the rifle checked by a gunsmith familiar with these rifles. The CCI No. 34 primer has mil-spec sensitivity and can reduce the chance of a slam-fire.

GarandOwner
April 18, 2008, 03:00 AM
I read that the #34 isnt harder than a regular primer, it just as the anvil seated farther back so that it is less likely to ignite due to lighter impacts. I have used regular rifle primers before with no problem, but for the same price, it gives added security. Its not that using regular primers will cause a slam fire, its just that by using #34's it reduces the chance further.

Jacka L Ope
April 18, 2008, 04:43 PM
From the CCI website FAQ:

Q: What are CCI No. 34 and NO. 41 primers?
A: They are special rifle primers made to military sensitivity specs. They are one method to reduce the occurrence of slam-fires in gas-operated, military semi-auto rifles. See the Speer Reloading Manual for more details. No. 34 and No. 41 primers are MAGNUM primers.


http://www.cci-ammunition.com/education/faq.aspx

Another snip from Speer Number 13, p. 37:

Slam-fires

A slam-fire is the discharging of a cartridge in a firearm by the closing of the bolt without a pull of the trigger. In most cases this is a phenomenon associated with military-style sem-automatic rifles and handloaded ammunition. The slam-fire can be caused by a high primer or by a heavy, unsprung firing pin. High primers contribute to slam-fires because the closing bolt drives the high primer cup against its anvil. All handloads must be checked for high primers; this caution is even more important when shooting military-style semi-auto rifles.

Slam-fires have been reported even when primers were properly seated. Many semi-auto service rifles have no firing pin spring and the firing pin itself is quite heavy. The inertia of the firing pin may cause it to snap forward as the bolt stops, firing the cartridge. If the bolt is not yet fully locked, the result can be a ruptured case with the potential for gun damage and injury to the shooter. Military primers are less sensitive than commercial primers to minimize this hazard.

In 1994, CCI introduced the No. 34 and No. 41 primers for military semi-auto rifles. The No. 34 primer is ballistically equivalent to the CCI 250 Magnum primer, and the No. 41 is equivalent to the CCI 450 Magnum primer. Any load showing a CCI 250 or 450 primer can be assembled with the No. 34 and No. 41 primer respectively. No. 34 primers are recommended for reloading 7.62mm NATO, 30-06 and 7.62x39 ammo for military semi-auto firearms. The No. 41 primers are recommended for 5.56mm NATO and 30 Carbine.

No. 34 and No.41 primers feature mil-spec sensitivity to minimize slam-fires. However, no primer can provide 100% protection against slam-fires if the loader doesn't seat the primers deeply enough, or the rifle has a headspace problem or an out-of-spec firing pin.

For an excellent discussion of slam-fires and their solutions, pick up a copy of The U.S. 30 Caliber Gas-Operated Service Rifles: A Shop Manual by Jerry Kuhnhausen, published by Heritage Gun Books (PO Box 887, McCall, ID 83638).

The "discussion" referred to in Jerry Kuhnhausen's shop manual is an extensive, in-detail 20 pages worth of information that I'm not even going to attempt to reprint here due to its length not to mention copyright. Suffice to say that he does mention CCI #34 & 41 primers, and states that mil-spec or military equivalent primers should be used in reloaded cartridges for use in military auto loading rifles.

In the gun and gunsmith world, the name of Jerry Kuhnhausen speaks of itself. If someone would like to take a shot at knocking his knowledge and experience as a "marketing gimmick", give it your very best. ;)

All said and done, to each their own reloading bench, ammunition, firearms, fun and risk of life and limb.

Cheers! http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a62/lakcaJLOpe/beerchug.gif

30Cal
April 18, 2008, 10:54 PM
Not to poke sticks at Kuhnhausen, but his lawyer has to eat just like everyone else's who publishes load data.

I've shot upwards to 10k WLR primers and about 3k Rem primers through the M1 and M1a. I don't think the #34 primer is necessary, but the risk of slamfire is out there and measures of some type should be taken to avoid it.

zxcvbob
April 18, 2008, 11:18 PM
CCI #34 primers are a marketing gimmick.

You mean I got screwed when I bought a case of 'em for $75 when I could have bought regular LR or LRM primers for $100? (powdervalleyinc about a month or two ago)

Wiljen
April 19, 2008, 07:40 AM
I think the mil-spec primers are a good suggestion in Military rifles that are owned by the military and treated as such.

For most of us, getting our beloved M1 or M1a full of mud and failing to clean it is not very likely. Slam fires in these weapons are a result of a non-rebounding firing pin (no spring). If cleaned and well taken care of, the pin shouldn't stick in the forward position and cause a problem. I shot Remington and Federal match primers in my Garand for years shooting NM and never once had or saw anyone who had a slamfire on the line. I suspect care of the weapons makes a huge difference in the likelihood of that problem.

Peter M. Eick
April 19, 2008, 12:12 PM
Your analysis of the problem is reasonable. It is weapon dependent or at least that is my opinion also.

So now we are faced with a quandary.

Do I buy c-34's and not-risk having my rifle blow up in my face because I don't want to pay extra for a less sensitive primer and I am so sure I am right that I am willing to risk it?

Or do I buy standard rifle primers and hope that my rifle does not require C-34's?


Interesting problem isn't it. Sort of like the lottery, if you know you are going to win, they don't call it gambling, it is investing. Unfortunately, most of us are forced to gamble.


Me, I shoot c-34's and never look back. I read the books, I read the information that Speer and Springfield put out on slam fires and figured "why risk it".

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/eickpm/sm_targets2.jpg

At 100 yards off the bench, my Supermatch does not seem to have a problem putting 50 shots in a row in a reasonable group. Thus I am not too concerned about any downsides to c-34's and am happy for the peace of mind they give me.

"you pay your money and take your chances" so to speak.

cracked butt
April 19, 2008, 12:42 PM
I'm going with 'marketing gimmic' myself.

A lot of 'milspec' products are common everyday products that happen to have gone through the proper bureaucratic channels to get qualified as an item that can be purchased through .gov contracts. Just like any other mall ninja gear, 'milspec' will command a higher price that some people will be more willing to pay (just ask any Colt owner).

I've used the No. 34 primers, but I've found better loads using WLR primers for the M1 and have shot through more than 1K of them without a problem.


And yes reloading manuals need to cover their butts. They don't want to be blamed is some dope seats their WLR primers high and has a slamfire- at least with the 'milspec' primers they can cicle back and say- "see it wasn't the primer's fault that it went off."

SlamFire1
April 21, 2008, 10:23 AM
I'm going with 'marketing gimmic' myself.

You can always call CCI at 800-627-3640 1, 1, and talk to the technical guy. I called CCI when their "Mil Spec" primers first came out on the market. I asked them about the sensitivity of the primers and was told that these were originally part of their military product line. They brought them on the market after the Clinton primer scare.

The CCI rep told me that this product line is less sensitive ("harder") than the commerical line and that these are magnum level primers.

When Winchester changed their product line in 1999, I called them and was told that the new brass finish primers are more sensitive.

Of course they all could be lying, and it could all be a marketing gimmick. But I don't see why they would be. After all there is a group of people who want less sensitive primers, and there is a group who want extremely sensitive primers.

The "extremely sensitive" primer group is primarily composed of "spring changers". These folks swap out mainsprings to get the lightest possible trigger pull and then blame the primer when the gun does not go off.

As to primer sensitive, there is a two level drop test which is used to lot test primer. The low height is called the H-2s and I think it corresponds to "none fire". And the high height, H + 5S, is the "all fire"

I recommend finding George E. Frost's book “Ammunition Making” for a good description and procedure for calculating the sensitivity numbers in a primer test. According to his book, Of interest, the H – 2S (two standard deviations) means that 4 primers in 900 would be expected to fire, and H + 5S means 3 in 10, 000, 000 primers are expected to misfire. So it can be seen that even at the lowest drop, there is a probability of ignition.

(If I have garbled this, someone please clarify)

That is why, in a gas gun with a free floating firing pin, it is important to use a less sensitive "hard” primer to reduce the chance of an out of battery slamfire.

I have had two slamfires with Garands, using Federal primers, one slamfire blew the back of the receiver off. I have talked to others who have had slamfires. All with Federal primers and Garands. One guy had an M1a slamfire with Federal primers. Folks don't like being labled as stupid accident prone gits, and so they don't go around broadcasting their accidents. You really have to dig in a non judgemental way to discover these things.

And, I use CCI #34's in my Garands and M1a's. They shoot just fine.

This target of ten shots, was shot at 100 yards in practice, prone with a sling, using the iron sights on one of my match Garands. I have not had any problems with the accuracy from CCI #34 primers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/M1Garand30-06168Nosler47.jpg

dmftoy1
April 21, 2008, 10:52 AM
I was going with the "BS" route myself on Saturday . . . .after all it had never happened to me over 2500 rounds of 30-06 and .223 . . .on Sunday my mind was changed.

I was shooting the ISRA's Garand Match yesterday and a guy was there with a nice Service Grade Garand. Looked to me to have been very well maintained. He was shooting "American Eagle" factory 30-06 loads. (150 grain, FMJ) and in the Offhand Slow fire stage (single loading, no clips) he had a slam fire just releasing the bolt. Scared the bejesus out of the guy shooting. (I had finished, cleared my gun and was sitting back and watching the guys who were smart enough to have not rushed like did. :) )

Just my .02

Regards,
Dave

SlamFire1
April 21, 2008, 11:42 AM
He was shooting "American Eagle" factory 30-06 loads. (150 grain, FMJ) and in the Offhand Slow fire stage (single loading, no clips) he had a slam fire just releasing the bolt. Scared the bejesus out of the guy shooting. (I had finished, cleared my gun and was sitting back and watching the guys who were smart enough to have not rushed like did

Interesting, and it happened with factory ammunition.

I assume the slamfire was in battery, because if it was an out of battery slamfire, he could have blown the back of the receiver off and there would have been significant damage to the rifle.

So, how does it feel to read all the posts which say slamfires are "BS", and yet, you saw one?

strat81
April 21, 2008, 11:50 AM
I've used a few hundred CCI Large Rifle Primers in M43 reloads fired through my AK with no problems. I'd prefer the arsenal primers, but I couldn't find any at the time. I just make sure to seat them below the rim and take care to clean the bolt well after using.

I'm using #41 primers for my AR reloading and they're fine. No additional cost over regular magnum primers.

YMMV.

cracked butt
April 21, 2008, 11:55 AM
Federal primers are well known to be 'soft' or 'sensitive' I won't use them in an autoloader.

For singleloaded slamfires- there's a reason for 'SLEDS' or at the very least riding the bolt handle 1/2 way down when a round isn't chambered from a clip or magazine.

30Cal
April 21, 2008, 12:47 PM
Federal primers are well known to be 'soft' or 'sensitive' I won't use them in an autoloader.

I don't shoot them, but mountains of FedGMM has been fired through M1a's over the years. That's supposedly the most sensitive primer available.

WayneConrad
April 21, 2008, 01:08 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/M1Garand30-06168Nosler47.jpg

Very nice shooting, and done properly and not from a bench. Very apropos nick.

dmftoy1
April 21, 2008, 01:58 PM
Yup, as far as I can tell he was in battery when it fired. He wasn't slamming the bolt forward but I'm sure he was just nudging it and letting it put it home.

he had the muzzle slightly depressed and so the round went into the ground about 20-30 feet in front of the line.

SlamFire1
April 21, 2008, 03:50 PM
Very nice shooting, and done properly and not from a bench. Very apropos nick.

Thanks. But I only post the "pretty" targets. ;)

And they are so rare.....:o

Jacka L Ope
April 21, 2008, 08:06 PM
Also, to duplicate and improve upon military cartridge primer/bolt face clearance, I ream and uniform the primer pocket depth to .131" (industry specification is .132" max.), square the bottom corners and seat primers to a uniform depth of approximately .006" below flush (industry max. seating depth is .008"). It's certainly not required, adds more work to my case preparation process but it's an extra margin of safety against slam-fires (in cartridges for 7.62mm/CCI #34 & 5.56mm/CCI #41 both).

dirtman
April 21, 2008, 11:37 PM
Mag primers work very well in cold weather. I have used them for years in my 308, been out at -40 and colder... they always do the job.

res45
April 22, 2008, 12:29 PM
Quote:
CCI #34 primers are a marketing gimmick.
You mean I got screwed when I bought a case of 'em for $75 when I could have bought regular LR or LRM primers for $100? (powdervalleyinc about a month or two ago)

Gimmick or not,which i don't believe it is I like the added insurance. It sure doesn't hurt my reloads I use in my YUGO SKS.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/rhsikes/NoLoad-1.jpg

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