"Self defense is a Myth"


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Eroc
April 17, 2008, 06:56 AM
I was listening to the local mourning talk show this mourning, and they were having a show to remember Virginia Tech, and their guest was some shmo from the center against handgun violence, who said that "The whole notion of self defense is a myth" and what's worse is that he said nobody had ever been able to prove him wrong, he must have never spoken to anybody with a handy American Rifleman Magazine, with the Armed Citizen section.

The funny thing is, that the next guest, some guy who wrote a book on how to survive college, restated that self defense is a myth, and that the nobody on campus should be allowed carry handguns (except for wackjobs). And he said that the best thing to do in an 'active shooter' situation is to "Army crawl out of the building."

I just don't understand these people

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Dksimon
April 17, 2008, 07:05 AM
Seems like they have lost touch with reality

USMC 1975
April 17, 2008, 07:16 AM
What would Joe Schmoe from this center do if you handed him a loaded 45 and then brought in 5 gang bangers to ravage, rape and beat his wife ?

Would he still believe self defense is a myth ?

Would he use the 45 to stop the attack on his wife ?

Or would he lay the 45 down and plead his case to the gang bangers verbally ?

These people are about as dangerous to society as a psychopath with an arsenal of weapons at home. They lead people into a false sense of security and will make the easily convinced believe things that are just not true.

Chris

Eric F
April 17, 2008, 07:17 AM
I would like to know the rest of their point of view on this. maybe the whole thing makes sense but most likely not.

Alexfubar
April 17, 2008, 07:20 AM
When I was taught to "army crawl" it involved keeping the muzzle of my m16 out of the dirt...

Maybe the caller meant " "army crawl" Toward the shooter ...

abrink
April 17, 2008, 07:27 AM
USMC you said it all!:D

Standing Wolf
April 17, 2008, 07:27 AM
Self-defense is, indeed, a myth to those who can afford armed bodyguards. For us commoners, it's reality.

JWarren
April 17, 2008, 07:48 AM
"The whole notion of self defense is a myth" and what's worse is that he said nobody had ever been able to prove him wrong


I could prove him wrong from my own experiences.



Self-Defense isn't a myth. As John Dryden said:

Self-Defense is Nature's eldest law.



-- John

woodybrighton
April 17, 2008, 07:54 AM
if you can throw a burglar out of a window its a good kill :evil:
but use any sort of weapon and your in deep ****e:fire: in the uk so hit the steroids and bulk up if you want to be safe in the uk .
though spree killing is pretty rare in the uk.
unfortunately for the gun control people in the states its way way too late to make any useful gun control law that would be effective.
a vast number of weapons in circulation
b hunting, self defense from big scary creatures fact of life
all you could do is disarm law abiding people fact of the matter an Enfield a hunting shotgun or a mosun could get the same number of kills in a gun free zone probably more as the shooter would have to aim :(
don't really think ccw on campus's is really an effective answer to be honest but it can't hurt

Voodoochile
April 17, 2008, 07:59 AM
When I was taught to "army crawl" it involved keeping the muzzle of my m16 out of the dirt...

Maybe the caller meant " "army crawl" Toward the shooter ...

Tis the way I was taught...

Unfortunatly we live in a world that has the derranged & armed persons that can & possibly will do harm to us & not all the time there will be a officer redily available to take care of these situations where it falls apaun the individules to defend them selves in any way they possibly can.

Does everyone need to carry a firearm?
IMO no.
But to think that self defense is a myth is idiocy, we all should keep up our guard & have a sence that it is possible that we may have to defend our selves.

Larry E
April 17, 2008, 08:29 AM
The Violence Policy Center and Center Against Handgun Violence people live in their own little dream world, believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and Tooth Fairy no doubt, and never have a care in the world. Well, except for us evil gun owners that is. If they lived in the real world with us commoners they might change their minds - assuming they have minds to change that is. :eek:

Deanimator
April 17, 2008, 08:51 AM
It's the Holocaust revisionist tactic of keep lying until some dummy believes you. Apparently these folks believe that if you tell a sufficiently large and STUPID lie, enough times, people will be so astonished that they won't be able to respond. Too bad for them they're wrong...

BigO01
April 17, 2008, 08:52 AM
Army Crawl ??!! LOL now thats funny !

For some reason I read that and got a mental pic of a scene in the movie "The Green Berets" when their camp is being overrun by the VC .

Soldier gets hit and goes down and David Jansen is helping him up and asks "Can you Walk ?" "Soldier says "No but get me on my feet and I can Run!!!" "

Why in the world would you "Army Crawl" in an empty hall/stairway when you could make a dash for the door and get out of the building .

I can see it now left wing students take this moronic advice and the next shooting the killer shoots 100 dummies between the shoulder blades and back of their heads while they try to crawl away !!

The anti's remind me of an old coworker , every time he did what was the dumbest thing I had ever seen I'd give him a few weeks and he would top it !LOL

Deanimator
April 17, 2008, 08:56 AM
What would Joe Schmoe from this center do if you handed him a loaded 45 and then brought in 5 gang bangers to ravage, rape and beat his wife ?
He'd toss the .45, get a video camera and put the whole thing on U-Tube. Some of these guys are MAJOR misogynists, especially the Brits. I had one once tell me that women shouldn't be able to defend themselves with guns because he was afraid that he'd "be mistaken for a rapist and shot". In reply, I asked him how it was that he acted around women that he thought it likely that he'd be "mistaken" for a rapist. I then told him that his best bet was to put down the butcher knife, pull up his pants and go home.

BruceRDucer
April 17, 2008, 08:58 AM
"Army crawl out of the building."--Captain Obvious

Gee, Eroc, are you saying that students cannot crawl faster than a speeding bullet?

Everyone knows madmen always remain standing in one spot.

What are the chances a murderous maniac would walk up on someone doing an "Army crawl" and shoot them? Come on!!! (Blink.....Blink.....)

Or are you suggesting that a maniac would shoot someone in the back? What are the odds that a person would be both a maniac and UNETHICAL at the same time?

El Tejon
April 17, 2008, 09:06 AM
What if the lecture hall only has one door? What if the murderer comes for you?

Running away, or Army crawling away, is a myth.

chris in va
April 17, 2008, 09:15 AM
The kids at Columbine tried the 'Army crawl' thing. Didn't seem to work.

1911 guy
April 17, 2008, 09:15 AM
You know, I waver sometimes between two responses. On one hand, I get offended by the complete lack of realism in these idiots thinking and feel the need to respond if I can. Other times, (maybe when my meds are working :D) I just assume they are a lost cause and concentrate my efforts on those who are still able to think for themselves. I can't do the thinking for everyone, you know!

romma
April 17, 2008, 09:45 AM
Tuck, Duck and Crawl... Where do these people come up with the notion that self defense does not exist, or that crawling away is safer than shooting a madman in their tracks?

I hate to say it, but it is herd mentality thinking "I can crawl away and be safe, maybe the others behind me get murdered, but I am safe"...

This is what a society that claims to be the great protector has bred.

ZeSpectre
April 17, 2008, 10:14 AM
Seems like they have lost touch with reality
I was at a social gathering where a group of blissninnies were taking turns picking on a younger girl who had made the error of judgment to mention, in the course of conversation, that she had a CCW permit. (Yeah I thought the same thing...why go to the trouble of getting a permit and then tell everyone at a party?!?)

So I was just eavesdropping but not participating until some similarly stupid and naÔve stuff started coming out of the various mouths and then someone said "well I believe that people don't really want to hurt each other" and I couldn't take it any more. I remained completely calm and used a very "social voice" but I proceeded to describe, in explicit detail, a couple of the more gruesome situations I'd encountered in the past and finished it up with "So basically I've seen with my own eyes that trusting in the mercy of a criminal CAN be a fate worse than death". By the time I was done I think one of the girls ran off to the bathroom to vomit but the group had at least a teeny-tiny clue as to the sort of people that really are out in the world.

Conqueror
April 17, 2008, 10:14 AM
"Army crawl out of the building"

That will make it nice and easy for the madman to shoot you in the back of the head as you lie in your own urine. Enjoy!

WayneConrad
April 17, 2008, 10:25 AM
Self defense is a such a myth that there are only 2.5 million instances of self defense, per year, involving a gun per year according to the the National Self Defense Survey (http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html) conducted by Florida State University criminologists in 1994. Other studies find that the numbers are higher or lower, but not mythical.

Data trumps imagination.

JoeShmoe
April 17, 2008, 10:30 AM
What would Joe Schmoe from this center do if you handed him a loaded 45 and then brought in 5 gang bangers to ravage, rape and beat his wife ?

I would defend myself and family. :)

Old Fuff
April 17, 2008, 10:38 AM
... their guest was some shmo from the center against handgun violence, who said that "The whole notion of self defense is a myth".

He is absolutely right... :what: :what: :what:

If you happen to live in New York City, Chicago, or Washington D.C.... :uhoh:

And aren't part of the Socialist elite.

Rudy Kohn
April 17, 2008, 11:10 AM
Wow. What a fantastic new way to argue. Alright, I'm game.

"The notion that gun control of any kind is anything other than an attempt to institute fascist police-statism is a myth. And no one's been able to prove me wrong."

Alright. I'm going offline now. I guess nobody could prove me wrong.
:neener: (for good measure)

callgood
April 17, 2008, 11:19 AM
Self defense IS a myth. For some people. But not for me.

I avoid places where self defense is more likely to be necessary, try to keep aware in places where it should not be necessary and am willing to defend myself if necessary.

I refuse to sink to the level of the lowest common denominator where my life is concerned.

If these boobs really believe that, maybe I could make a fast buck selling tshirts and sweats with that philosophy imprinted.:D

RoadkingLarry
April 17, 2008, 11:27 AM
I can't help but wonder if the dolt meant that the RIGHT to self defense was a myth...
I think that is an area we need to focus on, that we as human beings have a fundamental RIGHT to self defense and that for the vast majority of people a firearm is the most effextive means of being able to exercise that right.

Kitchen_Duty
April 17, 2008, 11:33 AM
I'll army crawl just far enough to tip over some concealment/cover and draw out my carry pistol. Write your senators, we need CC on campus

Duramaximum
April 17, 2008, 11:44 AM
"Army crawl out of the building!?!?!" Why do I get the feeling this hoser has never been in the Army, or the Corp, or the Navy, or the Air Force?

Army crawl so that you can be a slow target with a large center of mass instead of booking it out of there! Brilliant! :banghead:

What will they think of next? Put your finger in the tip of barrel so they can't shoot you like Bugs Bunny.;)

FieroCDSP
April 17, 2008, 12:10 PM
Folks, you have to remember that these people are under the belief that the average joe can't handle the truth. It's the same idea the government was pushing about nukes back in the 50's. "Duck and Cover." For some reason they left out the part about kissing your a** goodbye.
It's the same thing with dealing with a shooter in a crowd. Get down and crawl away, so you don't see the bullet coming. It'll hurt more if you see it coming. :banghead:

The truth that we know is that it's better to stop the shooter by any means than to cower and wait for death to claim you. It's better to be armed than unarmed.
Some people would rather cower in a hole than face real-life decisions in the moment. I'm sure some pshrink would explain that it's caused by a lack of self worth and confidence.

safetyjoe
April 17, 2008, 02:27 PM
A friend and I were discussing the VT shooting at lunch yesterday and he said that he had read somewhere that the guy (Cho) had practiced shooting at targets lying on the ground. The conversation went on to me saying that he killed 32 people with what 3 handguns(?) but if there had been 3 people who e had a CCW then the initial 2 or 3 that were shot might have been all that were killed/wounded. Campus CCW might or might not work, but if it saves one person isn't it worth trying? I'll get my tongue out of my cheek now.
I made my mind up long ago, that if ever confronted with a situation like that, the BG is going to shoot me in my backside as I am running out, if I am going to die in my own waste, it's going to be after my muscles let go, not after I wet/soil myself waiting for the guy to come after me. Call it macho, call it whatever anyone wants, I'm 50 yo, not in the greatest shape, and am sure no hero, but I believe that I will do whatever I can to save myself and others that are willing to try.

Larryect
April 17, 2008, 02:41 PM
You can't prove anyone wrong if they are unwilling to listen to argument, facts and statistics. When they are basing their argument on "feelings" of course you can't prove them wrong. Much like wrestling with a pig in the mud - you get dirty and frustrated while the pig is having fun.

BlackBearME
April 17, 2008, 02:44 PM
What would Joe Schmoe from this center do if you handed him a loaded 45 and then brought in 5 gang bangers to ravage, rape and beat his wife ?

Would he still believe self defense is a myth ?

Would he use the 45 to stop the attack on his wife ?

I hate to be pedantic, but technically this wouldn't be self defense. I know what you're trying to say, though. The worst part is that good ol' Joe probably wouldn't even touch the gun.

coloradokevin
April 17, 2008, 02:56 PM
Right...

(to paraphrase Col Grossman):

And, fires are a 'myth' too. Yet, our schools have fire extinguishers, sprinklers, alarms, fire escapes, etc.

Remind me again, how many people have been killed by fires in schools in the past couple of years?

But, suggest that we prepare to defend ourselves from violence, and we must be a bunch of fanatics!

I've never had a fire at my house, yet I have fresh batteries in my smoke detector. Is it any more strange for someone to keep a gun for defense, despite having not yet been attacked?

MachIVshooter
April 17, 2008, 03:07 PM
maybe I could make a fast buck selling tshirts and sweats with that philosophy imprinted.

Don't forget the bullseye on the back.

ZeSpectre
April 17, 2008, 03:18 PM
MachIVshooter
So we're talking "hit or myth"?

glocker82
April 17, 2008, 03:19 PM
Yeah army crawl out of the building and then get capped in the buns.

PvtPyle
April 17, 2008, 03:45 PM
Maybe because they dont see article or stories on selfdefense. I mean after all, here are two stories on the VT shooting and they clearly illustrated the points the anti's are making.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/crime/2008/04/14/intv.goddard.vt.survivor.cnn

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/04/15/vo.wi.grocery.shootout.wisn


I posted this on my blog, and I think it ties right in with what the anti's are saying.



There are a few things that jump out at me that sadden me greatly about the whole thing. The first thing is that these people all laid down and allowed themselves to be killed like pigs at the slaughter. How pathetic. Where were their parents when the children were learning about the sanctity of life? Where were the lessons about God helps those who help themselves?


The other thing is, the victims lives had ZERO value. Not to their parents who loved them dearly. Not to their friends who grieve the loss of these people. THEY decided their lives had no value. Anything worth something is worth fighting for. THEY decided that their lives were not worth fighting to save. ONE madman with killer intent kept dozens of people at bay because NONE of them had the will to survive. How pathetic is your life when you do not have the will to survive at all costs. In cases like these, where a madman has the intent and desire to kill you, you have nothing to loose. Why not take the chance and DO SOMETHING! The heros of Flight 92 knew they were going to die. THEY decided to do something about it so that others would not perish as well. THEY at least tried to save themselves and others. They died doing it, but how many lives did they save? If one person at Virginia Tech had know that their life was worth fighting for, maybe they could have saved others.


We are a nation of servants, sheep and pansies. The hippies say violence isnít the answer, and they may be right. But sometimes violence is the SOLUTION! Madmen can only be dealt with thru violence of action. They must be stopped with force. Students here, at Columbine and other shooting have all been documented begging for their lives. Did it work?


Maybe if they thought their lives had value and were worth fighting for the outcome would have been different.

Ltlabner
April 17, 2008, 04:04 PM
In the "what if you gave an anti a gun and let the gangbangers go after his wife" scenario, I am confident that they would, in fact, lay the gun down and try to reason with the evil-doers.

They wouldn't want to "enrage" the BG's by threatening them.

They are confident that by the woman yelling "stop" really loud and doing some ti-bo moves the BG's will go away.

They swear the police are right there to swoop in and prevent injustace.

No matter what, it's not fair that these gangbangers didn't have a nice school and a chance at a job, so really it's the man & his wife's fault they are out being rufians in the first place.

These are the sorts of people who are so arogent they actually believe they can "negotiate" with terrorists. That's right. You want to fly an airplane into a building? No prob, lets have a frapachino and try to hash things out. So I have no doubt these arrogent fools think they could talk to the BG's and convicnce them to take their evil deeds elsewhere.

Henry Bowman
April 17, 2008, 04:08 PM
PvtPyle: There are several accounts of VT students and staff who did fight back using the only tools available to them (desks, tables, doors,...). Some of them likely saved their own life or the lives of others by buying enough time for escape. At least one prof died trying. I expect there were some who did not have the necessary mindset and lay down like sheep as well. Others in other classrooms who would have done each of the above.

It's a bit broad brush to suggest that none of them valued their lives or acted in a way consistent with the same.

SuperNaut
April 17, 2008, 04:19 PM
If self-defense is a myth so is self-determination, self-improvement, self-control, and self-ownership. Since you cannot give away what you do not own, that eliminates self-lessness too.

I don't believe in hell, but a world devoid of will, devoid of deliberate action, that would pretty much be hell.

James T Thomas
April 17, 2008, 04:28 PM
The acessment by LtlAbner is correct; arrogance.
These elitists have taken on the King of the Hill assumption, and absolutely nothing you can say, logical or not, will be considered, or certainly will not be aknowledged.

After all, they have their crown to loose.

These types have been around for ages.
"Eyes to see, but cannot see, and ears to hear, but cannot hear."

That comes from God's Holy Word; written in the twelfth chapter of Ezekiel.
The cause for such an affliction is stated as because of rebellion towards God himself. A spiritual matter that almost cannot be changed by human efforts.

LtlAbner: Please say hello to Daisy Mae or her cousin Ellie Mae; Donna Douglas. Or Miss Daisy Duke, or...

PvtPyle
April 17, 2008, 10:16 PM
I would be interested in seeing those reports. So far I have seen people locking the doors and such, but not using deadly force to stop this madman. But I am talking about the ones that laid down and died because they had no value on their lives or will to live. I thought that was clear, but I will try better next time to be specific.

jakemccoy
April 17, 2008, 10:25 PM
The speakers' statements are immoral. Students at Virginia Tech did exactly what the other sheep taught them. They huddled under desks in the backs of rooms. Those students experienced a firing squad when all they wanted to do was listen to a lecture. Now, the sheep are teaching a revised version of an army crawl. What's next after that obviously won't work? The speakers here are immorally experimenting with people's lives.

geekWithA.45
April 17, 2008, 10:38 PM
There are guys that will tell you the sky is green, if it suits their ideological purpose.

Wheeler
April 17, 2008, 10:52 PM
Most of the folks that I have talked to that are "anti gun" are actually scared of the responsibility that the ownership and use of a firearm entails. I get comments like "I could never kill, shoot, hurt anyone." or "Guns are scary, dangerous." Or my personal favorite, "What do you need that thing for?"

Simply put, these folks are scared of guns, can't stand the thought of someone else not being scared like they are, so feel that you have to drop down to their denominator so they don't feel inferior.

A lot of the foot soldiers for Brady, MMM, etc. are young, idealistic kids that have been peer pressured into joining, then essentially brainwashed into working the drudgery. They are not true believers per se, just young, idealistic, enthusuastic kids taht have been fed a line that they want to believe in.

Wheeler

Zoogster
April 17, 2008, 10:57 PM
There are guys that will tell you the sky is green, if it suits their ideological purpose. It is! You just have to open your eyes (and put on the special glasses I tell you)!

Self defense is a myth.
So is people putting out thier own fires with fire extinguishers!
Administering various first aid or CPR to people and saving thier life is yet another myth!

In fact anything that includes a proactive response and does not simply include calling a professional and waiting until they arrive has never been proven to save anyone and is simply a myth that puts more people in more danger.

There is professionals for all of those things, and any tools which encourage such actions by non experts put people in more danger than them doing nothing and always waiting for the professionals.

(sarcasm off)

Travis Lee
April 17, 2008, 11:11 PM
I disagree with Pvtpyle that the victims at VT didn't value their own lives.

I think they had just been indoctrinated all their lives that, "violence never solves anything", and that any problems can be talked out, bargained, or negotiated away. Our culture over the last 60 years has managed to convince itself that evil doesn't really exist, or that it always strikes someone else, somewhere else.

When faced with a murderous lunatic, a lot of his victims simply had no programming available which would help them survive.

Life can get dangerous, and any parent who does not teach his children that fact, from an early age, invites catastrophe.

--Travis--

DougDubya
April 18, 2008, 03:11 AM
See, if they "army crawl" they'll die more easily, thus giving them more corpses to wag in front of TV cameras in order to convince John Q. Public that it's inert objects and useless laws that are the problem and solution, not the capability for a person to stand up and kill someone trying to murder dozens.

HK G3
April 18, 2008, 03:15 AM
The whole notion of self defense is a myth

I guess I must not be living in reality, since the home invaders I scared off with my rifle must have been all a really bad dream if that's true. :rolleyes:

People that can actually say things like this with a straight face just piss me off. It takes a special kind of smug, arrogant, :cuss: to disseminate such blatant lies.

John Rogers
April 18, 2008, 03:36 AM
I work at a university that one might expect would have a stereotypically head-in-the-sand approach to preparing for a violent incident. I was therefore pleased to see in a recent edition of the student paper:

----
University Police Chief Kirk Gaston and SF State’s emergency preparedness coordinator Gayle Orr-Smith were on site for the drill.

Orr-Smith said maintaining a “survival mindset” can be crucial in an active shooter crisis, adding it’s important not to give in to despair.

“Never count yourself out,” she said. “Not as long as you’re breathing.”

Orr-Smith’s first advice is to avoid being an available target, that getting away or hiding out should be the first priority.

But if you find yourself trapped and confronted, she added, you may want to fight back.

“It’s one gun,” she said. “One bullet.” Attempting to disable the assailant with a book or a chair might buy time or save your life, Orr-Smith said.

She acknowledged that campus shootings are a sensitive subject. Many people would prefer not to think about the issue at all, but preparation and honesty are key.

Ultimately, Orr-Smith said, the police response to an active shooter crisis is only part of the answer.

“Thirty thousand people on this campus need to take care of themselves as individuals,” she said.

----

Now this is San Francisco so I can hardly hold it against the individuals quoted that they did not care to discuss the possibility of students or faculty carrying firearms. But I was certainly pleased that the individuals quoted are emphasizing personal responsibility and that students should be prepared to fight back.

The full article is at http://xpress.sfsu.edu/archives/news/010791.html.

Dksimon
April 18, 2008, 03:57 AM
The safety that campuses offer is minimal. Never once have we had a professor even mention alternate exits incase of a shooting. I'm not saying that these kids just lied down to die but they didn't know where to go.
Since this is the case at my school I always make sure to survey classrooms for alternate exits, windows, fire escapes etc. If we have a shooter at our school he (or she) is going to see my hind end as I am fleeing towards the nearest exit. Id rather be shot in the back while trying to do something to procure safety than double tapped while cowering in a corner.

Ltlabner
April 18, 2008, 08:26 AM
Most of the folks that I have talked to that are "anti gun" are actually scared of the responsibility that the ownership and use of a firearm entails. I get comments like "I could never kill, shoot, hurt anyone." or "Guns are scary, dangerous." Or my personal favorite, "What do you need that thing for?"

Simply put, these folks are scared of guns, can't stand the thought of someone else not being scared like they are, so feel that you have to drop down to their denominator so they don't feel inferior.

Wow. Very good insight. I agree 100%.

A simular aspect, a lot of anti's don't like that they have to face life scared, but someone else can walk a bit taller because they have taken their security serriously. It's not fair that you have taken charge of your life, decided you aren't going to be a victim and can actually do something if threatened.

Some of the "scared of their own shadows" group of anti's would never, ever admitt that they are terrified of the world around them. In their condecending, arrogent way they feal they have everything figured out and undercontrol.

But deep down inside, they are terrorfied because they know they just *can not* controll the world around them, no matter how hard they try.

And it pisses them off that YOU don't have to deal with being scared that the boogie man will get you.

moooose102
April 18, 2008, 09:11 AM
i wonder how the person stating that
'self defense is a myth
', if he was being attacked, and somebody with a ccw came along and protected him. if he might change his mind, or just continue his rediculous belief. if he would thank the person for saving him, or go on believing that there was no need for such intervention, that the police would be there shortly to protect him. some people! i would never wish bad on anyone who hadn't harmed me, but some people need a serious dose of reality dumped into their laps, if for no other reason than to wake them up!

Ltlabner
April 18, 2008, 10:11 AM
I'm going to quit driving my car.

The breaks might not work when I need them, so it's too dangerous to be zipping around at 55mph in a 3000lbs missle.

Sebastian the Ibis
April 18, 2008, 10:22 AM
"Active Shooter Situation" "Self-Defense Mindset" - I've heard this rubbish before your university has been watching the same training video's that the University of Miami has:

http://www6.miami.edu/UMH/CDA/UMH_Main/0,1770,2573-1;54011-2,00.html

There is nothing more dangerous than a liberal with a plan.

BruceRDucer
April 18, 2008, 11:08 AM
Regarding Army Crawl as the best practical Self Defense:

In fact, some of the greatest nations in history...probably were successful because they upheld the glorious tradition of crawling away from all conflict on their bellies.

Adopting this, their citizens embodied the wondrous principle of standing up for nothing, fighting for nothing, and honoring nothing. I guess this proves that Self-Defense ain't all its cracked up to be?:neener::neener::neener:

/

Ithaca37
April 18, 2008, 11:37 AM
I heard a sound bite from the same interview that the OP was talking about. In it the guy who wrote the book on staying safe on campus stated that arming students was a bad idea because:

1. You wouldn't react fast enough to prevent the shooter from killing somebody. (I guess if you can't save everybody you shouldn't try?)

2. Police are generally not very good shots in firefights therefore "untrained civilians" (direct quote) would not be able to hit the assailant and again, would not be able to save anybody.

GrammatonCleric
April 19, 2008, 04:09 AM
Why bother arguing with people like that? Ignorant fools such as the aforementioned anti-gunners are entirely devoid of any cognitive capacity whatsoever.

BruceRDucer
April 20, 2008, 12:32 AM
"What will they think of next? Put your finger in the tip of barrel so they can't shoot you like Bugs Bunny."----DurMaximum

mmmm....sources familiar with the Myth of Self-Defense, do indeed advise aggressive action as the best course, and in particular, sticking your finger into the gun barrel is very much desired to avoid further injury to all concerned.

In fact, no scientific study in history shows that any homicidal maniac waved his gun around to avoid the insertion of a brave person's finger. Some would-be Heroes were shot, but it was believed these were accidental shootings on the part of the homicidal maniac.

Authorities recommend measuring the gun's aperture first to determine if one's finger will insert into the barrel. Also, if you find that your finger will not fit actually fit inside the barrel, try to locate a young lady with a small finger and ask her to plug the barrel.

This failing....do the Army Crawl.

Most importantly though, post signs everywhere, identifying all areas as "GUN-FREE-ZONES" and if you cannot hold up a "GUN-FREE-ZONE" during a homicidal maniac's rampage, try "HOLDING-THE-THOUGHT" until help arrives.

/

/

Honu
April 20, 2008, 05:17 AM
the sad thing is if someone had a gun and shot a bad guy who was shooting up a school
chances are the left would attack and want to prosecute them for putting people in danger !!!! and shooting

then they would go on to say how sad it was the poor (bad guy) shooter had a tough child hood and he should not have been shot but talked to instead !

the anti gun fanatics are that whacked

UnknownSailor
April 20, 2008, 08:17 AM
I was listening to an interview with a college age girl on the radio on the anniversery day of the VT shooting. All of the old unproven BS stated before in this thread were presented as fact, with no-one to offer any kind of rebuttal. She preceded every line with, "I feel..."
All of us should instantly jump a person's case when they say that. Feelings have no place in this context. We are all rational human beings, who think about things (well, some of us, anyway).
I could care less about how you feel about something, tell me what you think!.

Hokkmike
April 20, 2008, 08:47 AM
Reminds me of when I was a kid and we practiced the "duck and cover" under our school desks to protect us against nuclear blasts!

Deanimator
April 20, 2008, 09:26 AM
A simular aspect, a lot of anti's don't like that they have to face life scared, but someone else can walk a bit taller because they have taken their security serriously. It's not fair that you have taken charge of your life, decided you aren't going to be a victim and can actually do something if threatened.

That's the "herd defense". They don't believe in anyone having ANY defense against violence beyond random chance.

RDak
April 20, 2008, 10:58 AM
I must be getting older and dumber.

I simply don't understand what the sheep from the handgun violence prevention center meant when he said "the notion of self defense is a myth"?

I simply don't have a clue as to what that means.

I mean, the universal law throughout the USA allows us to defend ourselves when our lives are threatened, etc. And it's been the law of the land for centuries.

Can someone please explain his statement to me? Like I said, I honestly have no idea what he meant. It follows absolutely no logic in my old, slow brain.

Thank you for any explanations, I simply have no idea what that "notion of self defense is a myth" statement means. :confused:

CannonFodder
April 20, 2008, 11:48 AM
Folks, I really do feel that you're not giving the "sit tight and wait for help." strategy a fair shake. It has been used throughout history, so there's plenty of support for his position.

Just a few famous examples:
The Siege of Troy
The Siege of Jerusalem
The Maginot Line

Consider these when you shape your argument.






I don't really need sarcasm tags on that, do I?

jad0110
April 20, 2008, 12:18 PM
Quote:
Most of the folks that I have talked to that are "anti gun" are actually scared of the responsibility that the ownership and use of a firearm entails. I get comments like "I could never kill, shoot, hurt anyone." or "Guns are scary, dangerous." Or my personal favorite, "What do you need that thing for?"

Simply put, these folks are scared of guns, can't stand the thought of someone else not being scared like they are, so feel that you have to drop down to their denominator so they don't feel inferior.

Wow. Very good insight. I agree 100%.

A simular aspect, a lot of anti's don't like that they have to face life scared, but someone else can walk a bit taller because they have taken their security serriously. It's not fair that you have taken charge of your life, decided you aren't going to be a victim and can actually do something if threatened.

Some of the "scared of their own shadows" group of anti's would never, ever admitt that they are terrified of the world around them. In their condecending, arrogent way they feal they have everything figured out and undercontrol.

But deep down inside, they are terrorfied because they know they just *can not* controll the world around them, no matter how hard they try.

And it pisses them off that YOU don't have to deal with being scared that the boogie man will get you.

Actually, it may have more to do with this: people like us who take responsibility for ourselves remind the blissninnies that evil does exist in the world. They are trying to ignore the threats, be it out of fear or just plain old fashioned cowardice. We are resented for "disturbing their bubble". We provoke the evil that threatens them harm is how they see the world.

In their minds, I guess bad things happen because criminals are mad that we own guns :confused:. Kinda like how they think that spraying a badguy with pepper spray or mace (or begging/groveling) is 110% effective, but if you shoot the same BG in the chest 4 times with a 357 Magnum, it will only make him angry.

Most of the folks that I have talked to that are "anti gun" are actually scared of the responsibility that the ownership and use of a firearm entails.

I have a ton of respect for people who choose not to own guns because they see it as a big responsibility. Well, it is! What I have a problem with is when people decide that since they are unable to handle the responsibility, no one else should be trusted either. I may not be able to perform brain surgery, but that doesn't mean that no one else can.

rickomatic
April 20, 2008, 12:44 PM
The Violence Policy Center and Center Against Handgun Violence people live in their own little dream world, believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and Tooth Fairy no doubt, and never have a care in the world.

I think it is time to treat these people and groups as the anti freedom, neo-facists they are, rather than simply misguided polyannas. I am convinced that they are way beyond utopian dreamers. Their arguments have long since been debunked as totally lacking in any credible evidence. My only conclusion then, is that their goal is an evil, unAmerican plan to subvert the very freedoms upon which this nation was founded.
I was just watching a news story critisizing John McCain for his legendary temper. Maybe it's time we adopt some of that anger towards these traitors. It is well past time to stop suffering these fools. I hereby pledge from this day forward to call them out. I'm done playing nice.

Wes Janson
April 20, 2008, 01:14 PM
Hey now, at least "Duck and Cover" might actually save some lives depending on distance from hypocenter, and warhead yield. Better to be down low and behind protection of some kind when the overpressure wave hits.

TEDDY
April 20, 2008, 02:11 PM
actually these people know they are better than the common herd,better educated and know whats best for us low lifes.the reality is we may be better educated,and I know I can shoot better than most police.I as well as a lot of others have had military training.AOM3C.and I dont push easy,but I dont look for confrontations.but have had several.and I am still here at 83.
and yes its time we fought back and put these nutcakes in place.sara brady testifies in congress and lies,make here swear to tell the truth and charge her when she lies.no more nice guy it does not work.:fire:-:uhoh:-:rolleyes:
:banghead:

marksman13
April 20, 2008, 04:00 PM
I honestly don't think the number of deaths at VT had as much to do with victims not valuing their lives, as it did with victims not knowing how to protect their lives.

Throw a two-year-old into a pond and tell him to swim. He'll drown, right? Well, most of them anyway. When it comes to self-defense, most of the people in my generation, I'm 23, have never been taught how to fight back. They have never had their lives or well-being threatened.

They go into shock just like that two-year-old will. Their infantalized minds can't handle that kind trauma. They will drown, so to speak, because noone has ever taught them to swim.

The biggest decision that most people my age have ever made was where to go to college or where to go to work. They have never had to make choices with life or death consequences. Many of them have never witnessed the death of someone their age. They think that death is for the old, the sick and the weak. They don't realize that death chooses who it will.

My tour in Iraq opened my eyes up alot. I am amazed at the immaturity I see in the kids on campus. They consider themselves educated, better than most of society, untouchable. One day they will be running the shell of what is left of this country. God help us all.

Patrick_Henry
April 20, 2008, 08:27 PM
For them self defense does not exist because the self does not exist. You must be absorbed into the collective and function within the preset variations of society, freedom is inconvenient and must be given up.

That is the lie they are trying to cram down our throats folks! It is time now to stand for freedom or we may just lose it, and in the name of the great lie "security"

rainbowbob
April 20, 2008, 08:45 PM
What would Joe Schmoe from this center do if you handed him a loaded 45 and then brought in 5 gang bangers to ravage, rape and beat his wife ?

Would he use the 45 to stop the attack on his wife ?

Or would he lay the 45 down and plead his case to the gang bangers verbally?

Perhaps he would "Army crawl out of the building."

RDak
April 21, 2008, 09:55 AM
Guys, I've read all the posts in this thread and simply do not know what "the notion of self-defense is a myth" means.

Does it mean that a person is incapable of defending his or herself?

Is that wacko saying that if someone gets a rifle and decides to shoot people that no one is capable of defending themselves against that attack?

If so, he is a complete idiot.

I guess my confusion is this: If the notion of murder is not a myth, why would the notion of self-defense be a myth?

Throughout the years, statements like this from anti's have really confused me because they have no basis in reality or logic.

What did that anti mean? Someone please explain it to me.:confused:

(I'm not trying to be a smart aleck.)

Sato Ord
April 21, 2008, 10:12 AM
The interesting thing is that these idiots say that the last thing you want is a person with a gun trying to stop the insane person who is shooting everyone in sight. So just low-crawl away (:rolleyes:) and hopefully someone else with a gun (these highly trained police) will show up and save your helpless backside.

Yep, sounds like circular logic to me, or at least some kind of circle ...

another okie
April 21, 2008, 06:22 PM
I think what the guy means is that self-defense with a gun doesn't happen often enough to matter to him. In other words, no one he knows has defended themselves with a gun, therefore no one ever has.

If someone reads and listens only to national news there is a good chance they will never hear of a self-defense incident with a firearm. It's not big enough news for CNN or ABC. You have to read or listen to local news to get those stories. (Or read American Rifleman.)

RDak
April 23, 2008, 07:38 AM
I see Okie, he is so sheltered and naive that he equates what he sees in his circle of sheep as being applicable to society as a whole.

Makes sense, the guy's an idiot.

Sato Ord
April 23, 2008, 07:49 AM
Also, never forget that this guy has an agenda. You would have to prove that self defense using a fire arm is viable to his satisfaction. That's a loop hole you could drive a truck through. No matter what proof you come up with he will counter with statistics and his own evidence even if the statistics and evidence he has are stacked and obviously flawed.

I believe it's already been mentioned that wasting time on these left wing idiots isn't productive. It's better to try and educate a few folks who are truly ignorant and in need of the knowledge than wasting your time and energy arguing with someone who will refuse to admit he's wrong regardless of the preponderance of evidence with which he is presented.

RDak
April 23, 2008, 07:53 AM
Good points Sato.

Deanimator
April 23, 2008, 08:49 AM
I think what the guy means is that self-defense with a gun doesn't happen often enough to matter to him. In other words, no one he knows has defended themselves with a gun, therefore no one ever has.
Those kinds of smug assumptions are almost always embarrassing to those who make them.

It reminds me of the first time I met my best friend's now wife. We were in the officer's club in Seoul joking about the Village People and how in college we used to drive the farmers out of Pizza Hut by playing them over and over on the jukebox. She didn't get the joke, and it took us a while to delicately explain the Village People to her. A look of unalloyed horror came across her face and she solemnly declared, "I think there are NO people like THAT in Korea!"

rainbowbob
April 23, 2008, 02:00 PM
...wasting your time and energy arguing with someone who will refuse to admit he's wrong regardless of the preponderance of evidence with which he is presented...

And haven't we all found ourselves at some point spittin' into that wind?

another okie
April 23, 2008, 07:19 PM
If you have the temperment for it, I think it is worthwhile to go ahead and state your case even to the most hardened antis. At least you are showing them that not everyone agrees with them, which many of them honestly believe.

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