shooting dogs

[jhco]

the last thing i ever want to do is use my piece in self defence but i will if i need to. with that said would any of you ever shoot a dog if it threatened to harm you and of course i mean more that just barking and haveing a menacing demenor. i do alot of walking and running and i carry when i do both and this has always been a concern for me because i have had to oc a dog before from a bike and it didnt have the effects on the dog that i wanted it to lucky the dogs owner came out and stopped the dog before i had to get phisical with it. my biggest fear is that when/ if this ever happens again and the oc dosnt work and i pull my weapon, a dog unlike a human isnt going to stop at the sight of a gun and me saying stop or ill shoot. so i ask if a dog is coming at you full speed on public property snarling and barking and an attack looks imminent at what point do you defend your self with the gun

[MrAnteater]

Self defense is self defense. Dogs can kill people.

If you have to use lethal force make sure to use good judgment. If a vicious dog is attacking I would shoot it if I had no other alternatives.

[Brian Williams]

This type of thread tends to get ugly and can go downhill very fast. Remember to keep it THR and no name calling.
I would shoot as soon as I know I can not escape or get others out of the danger area before they got hurt or get in the way of a good shot.

[unspellable]

The dog doesn't necessarily need to actually attack. I was out with a friend on our motorcycles. A dog rushed us and got wound up in my buddy's front wheel, dumping him on the pavement at about 35 mph.

[jhco]

thats the way i feel also i think an attack on my life no matter what life form its from is a justified use of force

[ashtxsniper]

Yes it is a possibility and yes I have shot several dogs.

[ArmedBear]

If you have to use lethal force make sure to use good judgment.

I'm assuming, by the way you wrote the post, jhco, that you're not the kind of guy who would shoot a dog that's rolling over at your feet, on its back with a big grin and its tail wagging. There are people on this board who think that's "aggressive behavior".

That said, a dog that is bred to be an attack dog not only will not back down when you pull out a gun, it will also not back down when it is shot.

Bulldogs, mastiffs, etc. don't respond to pain like we do. There are stories of dogs with their guts ripped out, still hanging onto bulls. It's not appropriate to use a choke chain or slip lead for training on these dogs, because if they get it in their head that there's something they want on the other side of the street, they'll just hang themselves, pulling with their own strength against the choke lead.

And most of these dogs (true Pit Bulls included) were not even bred to be aggressive towards humans. They're just bred to have a one-track mind and not let anything stop them. A dog that really is bred/trained to attack humans is a truly scary animal if it's out of control.

So, there's something really important. If you are dealing with a truly, viciously-aggressive dog, a gun shot that just causes pain will likely not stop the attack. If it does, then the dog probably wasn't much of a threat to begin with. That's why OC doesn't work in this situation.

If you shoot, you have to shoot to stop. Not to discourage. Think grizzly bear tactics, but a smaller animal.

If you haven't seen this video, watch it. These appear to be Belgian Malinois.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3383695521261916155

The Malinois is not even a big dog, and presents a tiny target. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Shepherd_Dog_(Malinois)

From this video, I'd say this. If the dog has this athletic ability and REALLY wants to attack you, you'd better be a damn good shot, and start shooting when it's 20 yards or more from you. And even then, you might as well kiss it goodbye.:)

One more thing. My wife was at the dog park and raised a chuck-it to throw a tennis ball for one of our dogs. A retired police dog, a huge German Shepherd, came over and grabbed her raised arm and wouldn't let go until its owner told it "release". He apologized, and she was unhurt, if a bit shocked. A trained police dog that's under command is both less, and more, of a threat than many other animals. It depends on who's giving the commands.

Also, someone who is having his dog attack you is committing assault with a deadly weapon, at least in most jurisdictions.

Just some thoughts...

[Vern Humphrey]

I shoot feral dogs because it's illegal to shoot the so-and-sos who turn them loose in the countryside.

[jhco]

well i never had any thought of shooting the dog to cause it pain if it or any other life form from mosquitos, humans and anything in between attacks me and im in fear of my life and i have to shoot it i want it to die

[ashtxsniper]

This is where my experience comes from. Same situation as Vern.

[LightningMan]

Hello, this happened not more than a month ago, a man was walking his Lab when he and his dog were attacked by 2 pit bulls running loose. He tried to hold them off with his umbrella & of course his dog defended itself to the best of it's ability. Someone in the area saw what was happening, called police and an officer arrived on the scene and had to shoot both pit bulls. The man had been bitten as well as his dog. If the police can do it, so should the average joe. If your being attacked you have a right to defend yourself, IMHO. LM.

[AndrewGWU]

I would have not problem shooting a dog in self-defense and would have no remorse over it like I would a human life. I would never take a dogs life for the pleasure of it, but if it come down to saving mine I would not hesitate.
Unspellable mentioned dogs rushing a motorcycle. I had a dog, who I later found out was a stray, rush my motorcycle and got in the front wheel with me going 45mhp. I flew threw the air about 20ft before sliding on a tar and gravel road. Had to have sugery on my hand, broke my wrist, and got all cut up. I had much rather someone had shot that dog than go through that.

[ArmedBear]

im in fear of my life and i have to shoot it i want it to die

I'm afraid you missed the point.

The point is, you probably have to kill it BEFORE it can get to you. Injuries might not even slow it down.

If it dies 5 minutes later, that doesn't help you. Hence, "grizzly bear tactics."

[copaup]

You'd be suprised how much damage a dog commited to a charge will withstand. I saw a pit take 4 rounds of 00 buck before it stopped. The dog was still very much alive when animal control took it away.

[1911Tuner]

I'm a bona fide, hard core dog lover. I've shot two dogs in self-defense.

Most "aggressive" dogs are simply defending territory...and 99% of the time, it's bluff. They circle, and feint, and wait for you to determine how the encounter will go. Fight of flight? Facing the dog and shouting "NO!" and "BAD DOG" while backing away slowly is sufficient for those who don't really mean to or want to attack. Do not turn and run.

The ones that are serious rarely circle and strut. They come straight in at full speed...and usually don't make a sound until they're within striking distance...roughly 6 feet or so...and sometimes not until they've actually got their teeth in you.

The most dangerous position that you can be in is on the ground. Stay on your feet at all costs.

Start shooting the dog as soon as you can get a clear shot. If he keeps coming after being hit...keep the gun out in front of you at arm's length. Unless he's trained to avoid weapons, he'll clamp down on the closest thing to him. When he grabs the gun's muzzle...pull the trigger.

For those who feel that a medium-sized dog isn't a real threat, and that you can "handle" him if he attacks...don't kid yourself. A 50-pound dog is twice as strong and three times faster than you think he is...and they've got canines that can reach your carotid, subclavian or femoral artery.

The best non-firearm defense against a dog is a 5-foot stick, about a half-inch in diameter...sharpened to a pencil point...and hardened over a flame.

Same deal as the pistol. Hold it out like a lance and let the dog clamp down on it...and shove it down his throat. Now is not the time to be gentle. Shove it in deep and keep pushing as the dog backs up. If he keeps fighting, yank it hard sideways and break it off so he can't close his mouth. If he can't bite you, he can't hurt you.

[Avenger29]

I shoot feral dogs because it's illegal to shoot the so-and-sos who turn them loose in the countryside.

Same here.

You'd be suprised how much damage a dog commited to a charge will withstand. I saw a pit take 4 rounds of 00 buck before it stopped. The dog was still very much alive when animal control took it away.

copaup, weren't you the one that had to shoot the dog? And then you convinced the PD to issue standard loads (instead of reduced recoil) because of that incident?

[jhco]

im afraid you missed the part when i said that i would do my best to KILL the animail and by attack i mean threaten to attack by acting in a way that makes me fear my life but lets just keep it cool and let it be

[Blacksmoke]

I have shot dogs (both feral and "pets") worrying my sheep and goats. Generally, I can run off an individual or a pair but when they pack a different mentality emerges. I mostly use a .30-30 but have used a .45 Colt in a Model 1873 Uberti clone. The later uses a 200 grain JHP at around 1200 fps at the muzzle.

I then hang the body on the fence along the highway for the owner to find. Mostly they do not say anything. One husband and wife complained. I showed them one of my doe goats that had her hind leg and and shoulder torn off by a German Shepard. They get the idea. The feral dog I bury.

I do not enjoy shooting dogs nor do I shoot coyotes unless they get too close to the herd/flock.

[Mr. Designer]

I kicked a chasing dog in the face once which was enough to stop it. If I had to, I would shoot a dog.

[ArmedBear]

im afraid you missed the part when i said that i would do my best to KILL the animail and by attack i mean threaten to attack by acting in a way that makes me fear my life but lets just keep it cool and let it be

This doesn't make any sense. Nor does it follow what I wrote. Maybe you don't understand the difference between "kill" and "drop immediately." There sure is one. "A gun is not a death ray."

Whatever. Good luck.

[JoeShmoe]

I have a large dog-mouth-shaped scar on my right leg that I received from my neighbor's pit bull like dog, while out running one day. This happened before I carried. I am convinced that the dog bit me in mid air as I ran past their house. The parents weren't home and their 10 year old had let the dog out. After the emergency room visit, and stitches, we went back there with the police to inform them of what happened, and determine if the dog had it's shots. They said the dog was "sweet" and had never hurt anyone before. They still let it loose, and it has threatened others in the neighborhood. I'd shoot it if it ever came near me again.

[Dksimon]

wouldnt hesitate for a second about pulling the trigger, but only if it meant keeping me or my family out of harms way.

[NG VI]

I hate aggressive dogs. I would not hesitate to shoot a strange dog if I felt I might possibly be harmed by it. I realize they don't have the same fear of black objects people do, but if any dog made me feel like I may end the day in the emergency room I would kill it. I can't afford to go to the hospital unless I absolutely can't avoid it, and being mauled is avoidable sometimes.

[Clipper]

I remember one of the mods declaring NO MORE DOG SHOOTING THREADS!

Well...?

[Steve C]

A note about chemical protection against dogs. Dogs don't have tear ducts like humans and OC, mace, or tear gas have little to no effect on them. They do have very sensitive smell and a spray bottle with some household ammonia will drive them away fast.

[leathermanwave]

The history of the dog matters, if the barks and charges every single time you walk past and every time it stops and goes back to it's yard leave it alone. If it does this on your own land it is a threat to you.

We had Some neighbors dogs that used to always go on our land and try their best to get at our goats and chickens we told the owner and they wouldn't stop them so we shot at them at about 70 yards with buckshot, anyway they had to bring the dogs to the vet to get the buckshot pellets removed. We saw them outside the next day building a fence. Problem solved.:)

[ArmedBear]

They do have very sensitive smell and a spray bottle with some household ammonia will drive them away fast.

I'll have to experiment with that (low dose). Sometimes, you even want to drive your own dogs away. Like when there's salmon on the dinner table.

BTW if I met someone in person who said he "hates" some animal or other, I'd question his mental stability and intelligence.

I just ate the meat of something I shot, for lunch today. I'm hardly a "bunny-hugger."

It's just not rational to "hate" an animal, even if you need to shoot it. A dog is not a person, and getting emotionally riled by anthropomorphizing its motivations is unproductive at best.

[41magsnub]

Same here, I have shot a dog in self defense while it was chasing me and had bitten me before even after a blast of pepper spray. I hated it but it needed to be done since the Sheriff and animal control failed repeatedly to do something about it. I would do it again.

[NG VI]

I don't want to be taken the wrong way, I love dogs in general but I am not about to get mauled because someone didn't properly socialize their animal. It seems like some peoples dogs are basically feral but coexist with their owners.

And I don't know if I care to carry around a bottle of windex everywhere I go, seems a bit inconvenient to me for a situation that usually won't happen.

[jgo296]

kinna odd but i have a bulldog that fears almost nothing
but i pointed a pistol at her and she got scared and got out of the way
i was really shocked shes never seen a gun fired , never had anything used on her that would resemble a gun, and i didnt do it in any kind of agressive manner
plus she doesnt get scared when you point a camera at her
i was kinna amazed still dont undersgand it though

[1911Tuner]

jgo...I've got a Collie that reacts the same way. He's never had any sort of reason to fear a gun...but he does, especially if he hears one go to battery or dry-fire.

Some dogs are just smarter than others.

[41magsnub]

Only dogs I had that were afraid of guns were afraid of squirt guns for obvious reasons when I was a kid.

[bensdad]

I haven't had to shoot a dog, but I would if it threatened me or mine. I shot a stud horse once with birdshot when I was a kid. It had broken down our fence and was mounting a Morgan Mare we had. He got down and ran home.

I'd also like to add emphasis to those who have mentioned the "tenacity" of a dog. I found a German Shepard in our barn one morning who had been shot in the hind quarters with a shotgun. He had entry wounds in his back legs, testicles, tail, hips. He was a mess: blood had pooled on the floor where he was laying. Nice enough dog - must have run through the wrong yard somewhere in the neighborhood. The nearest house was at least 1/4 mile away, and he had injuries that would have imobilized any man I know.

[Fat Boy]

Having read electric meters for a living at one time in my life, I have had a fair share of encounters with dogs, many of whom would have been perceived as bad, or dangerous. As has been stated, the vast majority of "bad" dogs will "talk trash", show you some teeth, act menacing, etc. Many of these animals will stop and move away when you shout at them, step towards them, and otherwise act a bit aggressively towards them. (this aggression on the persons part is only needed long enough for the person to remove themselves from the area) It is the exception, a truly nasty dog that can be a genuine threat, to limb and in extreme cases to life. I had a colleague who spent a few days in a hospital after being set upon by 3 german sheperds; he lost quite a bit of blood and it took lots of stitches to close him up. Fortunately, he was able to get away from the animals, and was eventually no worse for the wear. In those really bad situations, you may have to fight just to get away. However, it is worth noting that if you shoot a dog, (believe this or not), you may be explaining why you had a weapon with you, and why you shouldn't be charged with premeditated cruetly to animals. Just a thought, YMMV

[Moonclip]

I hate people that treat dogs as equal to humans and such though I love most dogs,pit bulls included. lets not go there though unless you want to PM me or something.

I hope this thread stays on the best course of action if forced to shoot a dog under dire circumstances. Not on the merits of dogs, their owners, ect.

Wheres the best place to shoot? Head, body? I've had dogs threaten to attack me when I was only armed with maybe a stick or a knife but usually unless a trained dog an agressive response sends them away. Yes they like to chase my motorcycle as well. I hate irresponsible owners who let their dogs roam free causing damage.

[tkendrick]

As a kid growing up on a ranch, we would go through spells.

We had one really bad year where we lost five calves in a month to feral dogs running in a pack. We shot IIRC 8 dogs in a week, that time.

Haven't had to do it since.

But a friend of mine in Phoenix was taken down, his mini-dobie killed and a mixed breed cocker had vet bills to the tune of $800.

Under the right circustances, would do it in a heart beat.

[USMCDK]

Hey guys I didn't read the whole thing but I don't BELIEVE that this wasn't covered in the thread yet...

Just remember that there is a leash law USA wide and in some, if not all or most, states there are also fence laws i.e. if your dog can touch the top of the fench with it's front paws while on it's hind legs you legally have to raise that fence 2ft higher.

With that said, if both those laws are violated and the dog attacks you, you have the right do defend yourself with lethal force, given the dog isn't a K-9 unit's dog i.e. police dog. I know this law to be true, because.

When I was 14y/o I was attacked by a Rotty in the street that had jumped the owners fence just to get at me. when I struggled to get away instinct of kill or be killed kicked in and that's when I did it. I gave up on getting away and wrapped myself around the dog's body with my legs and grabbed, with my free hand, the dogs head and twisted injuring the dog severly. the owner came running out of the house screaming his guts at me about how I harmed his precious dog, all while calling the Manchester PD to report the incident. When they arrived the dog had choke to death and the owner was heavily fined not only that they, the PD, told the owner that what I had done was totally legal and even if I mannaged to get away, with the dog still alive, and report it, they would have put the dog down anyway.

So bare in mind my little run in with a dog that attack outside of it's, legally set, territory.

If it happens to you, you have the right to kill it hands down LEGALLY!!!

Thank you.

So to answer the OP's question... you are damn right I would shoot and kill a dog that has and or is attacking me.

[Confederate]

There are so many other effective ways of dealing with dogs that shooting them should always be the final option.

Most dogs won't attack someone with a staff in their hands. If attacked by multiple dogs, that's something else entirely. In that case, you have to determine which one is the pack leader and take him out. After that, the others should scatter.

I'm more of a cat person myself and would unhesitatingly shoot a dog on my property that was an immediate threat to either me or the cat. But again, it would be a last resort.

I once knew a fellow who trained soldiers to kill dogs with their bare hands. "The number one point I try to get across to them," he said, "is that almost any able-bodied man can kill almost any healthy dog with no training, if they keep their wits."

Killing Shepherds is one thing. They're pretty predictable whether they've been trained or not; however Dobermans and Pit Bulls are far more dangerous—the Dobermans because they look for openings and are smart enough to devise tactics, and the Pit Bulls because of their tenacity.

I knew of one fellow who shot a Pit Bull that was attacking his neighbor. He'd just bought a Broomhandle Mauser and was in the middle of inspecting it when he heard the cries next door. He quickly loaded a clip, and ran outside with his Mauser. Spotting the dog, he said it had the woman by her thigh and that it was trying to rip it off her leg. Aiming at the chest, he fired off a round. The dog lurched a bit, released the woman to spit out a part of its lung, and then returned to its grisley attack. The second time this fellow aimed for its neck and squeezed off another round. This time the round almost decapitated the dog and the attact was over.

Now it turned out that the dog belonged to the owner and that it had just attacked for seemingly no reason. The woman was trying to get into her car when her neighbor appeared, but she was too distracted by the dog's vicious onslaught. Had he not appeared, the end of the story would have been much different. As it was, she was seriously injured, but survived.

[XDKingslayer]

I once knew a fellow who trained soldiers to kill dogs with their bare hands. "The number one point I try to get across to them," he said, "is that almost any able-bodied man can kill almost any healthy dog with no training, if they keep their wits."

Keeping your wits about you isn't an easy thing to do when you have a 100lb. chainsaw having it's way with you...

The problem with shooting dogs is that you truly don't know the dogs intent. I've had people shy away from my dog when he's simply sitting beside my left leg like he's trained to do. They dog park clears out when I show up with my dog because people think he's automatically going to eat their dog.

They watch and wait for it to eat the little old lady's miniature poodle while they chase each other around the park for hours.

People are so ingrained to think any mean looking dog (oh noes! a pit bull!) is going to attack, even if they aren't a threat to attack. It's mindless prejudice.

Almost none of you would shoot at a woman running at you out of the blue. Almost all of you would shoot a dog running at you out of the blue.

Women have killed more people than pit bulls...

[bowl443]

If I'm carrying, and I can't shoot a dog when my life is perceived to be in danger, then I shouldn't be carrying.

[saunderscc]

I agree with bowl443. I am carrying for protection. Killing a dog who is heading towards me and I have no other option than to shoot, I shoot. As with humans, lethal force should be a last resort. I have always had dogs in my life from childhood to now. It would kill me to shoot the dog, but if there were no other option...I would.

[malakas07]

So everyone that has had to shoot a dog in self defense or for the defense of others within CITY LIMITS.

What happened after the Police arrived? What did they say to you?

[leathermanwave]

My sister used to have 3 dogs and we have goats a horse and chickens. We always have geese fly over our house because there is a gravel pit next door so we used to watch for geese and bolt out the door with the shotgun and start shooting:evil:, It got so the sight of a shotgun or racking the slide would create a mad rush for the dog house and barn. It's true that a lot of animals seem to know that a gun pointed at them is not good even if they have never seen a gun before.

I think it is kind of funny that these self defense against dogs threads seem to cause more of a stir than a self defense against humans thread.:scrutiny:

[glocker82]

That's why I only own border collies...they are smart enough not to attack someone with a gun! at least mine is..he hates guns!

[PawDaddy]

I love dogs very much and have owned dogs most of my life. A dog is a wonderful companion and a great addition to the family. They can and often are thought of as family members.

Having said that, I would not have a problem killing a dog if I had to.

I was sitting in the woods once while deer hunting. I had my Rem. 1100 and was sitting on the ground on a hillside overlooking a trail. I heard something as saw two dogs meandering through the woods. One was a German Shepherd and the other looked like a bulldog. For some reason chills ran up my spine at the sight of them. As they got closer I slipped the safety off and waited. I had a certain distance that I was going to allow them to get to before taking action. They turned off just before they got there. They never saw me and went on down the trail.

I would have never thought twice about dropping them both in their tracts.

[Cosmoline]

They do have very sensitive smell and a spray bottle with some household ammonia will drive them away fast.

Not a great idea. The ammonia mist can get right back in your face if you shoot into a headwind, and unlike pepper spray ammonia can leave you blind for the rest of your life.

When to shoot a dog is like when to shoot a human. You have to make a determination based on facts and circumstances. You can't shoot a dog just because it comes up to you anymore than you can kill a human for coming near you. You have to use common sense and listen to the little voice in your head. 99 times out of 100 the dog is either goofing around or at most hoping for a sucker bite and will back off if you stand ground. But there are times when things look *wrong* and you have to take action.

[NG VI]

I think it is kind of funny that these self defense against dogs threads seem to cause more of a stir than a self defense against humans thread.

I think that is because any human old enough to be a threat to anything larger than a mouse knows they better cut it out when someone draws on them, and if they don't then they have made their own decision, what happens when they catch 2-10 bullets is the direct result of their own decisions, no one elses.

Dogs and other animals for the most part don't recognize or take similiar situations the same way. Plus then you get into the fuzz of dogs who just posture and act aggressively but "mean no harm".

[USMCDK]

Dogs are also a lil different from humans... Yes we are both territorial creatures, but dogs territory, unless trainned, is far bigger than ours. I.E. a dog that roams the streets on it own vs. a fenced in dog. Yes fenced n dogs will consider what is out side the fence it's territory some times.

With that said, dogs make a totally different judgement called based on that. You come into my territory and I am, not, sure you are authorized I just might bite you to get you to get lost. Dogs don't know the laws of man, they can't tell you RSA 13:9.2b (just something I came up with it's not real at least not that I know of) states that... Blah Blah BLAH... so they handle it in the only way that they can... instinctively.

I am not saying that shooting a dog is wrong or right. and I will tell you this. I would find it just as hard to shoot one as I would a human being. It's not liek I am hunting deer to put on my dinner plate, totally different ball game. In the event that the laws have been broken just like in my story, then yes I would shoot and shoot to kill for that matter dog or human, and have my sadness and regret afterwards and hundress of $ in theropy probably just to get over it.

[owlhoot]

On the whole I like most dogs better than I like most people. And I've met many more bad people than I have bad dogs. But both are out there and need to be dealt with in like manner.

PawDaddy, just what would have been your justification for shooting those two dogs taking a walk in the woods?

[copaup]

Yep that was me. Not really able to claim credit for the ammo change, but like to think I had some part in it.

I worked a scene once where a medium sized mixed breed of about 50lbs took a grown and healthy man to the ground and nearly killed him, very nearly removing one of his hands in the process. You do not want to fight a dog. Period.

That said, I adopted a pit puppy I found in an abandoned house at work and she is the sweetest, goofiest dog ever. I also have a 125lb Rottie mix that wouldn't hurt a flea and shows belly to the neighborhood poodle. The problem isn't the dogs, its the owners.

[loop]

We moved from a ranch with lots of space in the past year. A lot of people dumped their dogs out in the country and they would "pack up."

We had a lot of dangerous stuff in terms of animals - rattlesnakes, coyotes and mountain lions. Rattlers required caution before being disposed of, coyotes required caution, but not as much. Mountain lions ran off as soon as they knew there was a human threat.

But, feral dogs were a completely different story. The wife and kids had standing orders that if you saw more than three dogs together you got behind a door.

We only had one real incident and that was when three got to one of my goats, but feral dogs can be more dangerous than wild animals. They've lost their fear of man and work together.

When I was faced with them I'd use a gun and a lariat. We ended up with a couple good dogs that way. Once out of the pack they were looking for a new leader - me.

Never shot one, never needed to. They fear and respect authority.

I have five dogs. Four of them don't add up to 40 pounds. I don't need a dog for self defense. All I need them to do is let me know I have to take care of something. And, oh yeah, the fifth dog weighs in at 20 pounds.

All my dogs are rat terriers. I don't have to worry about the 20-pounder. He could bring down a horse if he wanted. He's 13 inches at the whithers and when i walk in the door he taps his front paws on my shoulders until I bend over to pay attention to him. I'm only 6-2.

Threats from dogs are in the mind of the beholder. My lariat is the best weapon I have for an errant dog. They get real easy to handle when you have a rope around their necks.

Only had one gave me real trouble. Had to give him to the Humane Society the third time I caught him.

Y'all ought to learn to rope. Good lariat only costs about $35 to 50.

[The Bushmaster]

The dog is dead!! I would much rather shoot the owner for not protecting their dog by keeping him under control. It's more their fault then the dog. Of course I would end up in prison if I did shoot the owner...Self defence is just that. I wish to live without injuries or scares from injuries. So...The dog is dead!! And if I can get the owner in trouble with the law I will do that too.

I have already dispatched a dog messing with my pregnant mare. Had her cornered in a small paddock when she was 10 months along.

[abrink]

I would treat the dog in the same manner i would shoot a human. If my life or other lives are in danger it's going to be the dog and not me.

[gym]

I honestlly can't see why a question like this is even asked, other than to initiate an argument and a barrage of posts either way. Another biased leading question. Many here including myself have and love dogs, so you may as well ask if anyone would shoot grandparents or nieces and nephews, if your 4yr old grandaughter or you 89 year old uncle was coming at you at a high rate of speed shaking his cane, or swinging his bedpan at you. That kind of question is just not warrented in a place where most of us are in life. You should know when you are in danger and when your not, and handle things accordinglly

[PawDaddy]

PawDaddy, just what would have been your justification for shooting those two dogs taking a walk in the woods?

It would have depended on how they acted when they got to the point that I had "allowed" them. If they had spotted me and went the other way, I would have let them go. It they had kept coming towards me after seeing me I would have shot them both. (THAT IS, IF THEY WERE NOT ACTING IN A FRIENDLY MANNER) If they had been wagging tails and acting in an unthreatening way I would have tried to keep my distance and encourage them to move on. They were two BIG dogs that could have easily hurt or killed someone. I was not going to take that chance.

[Confederate]

I knew a federal agent who was called to investigate threats to an IRS agent. When he and his partner arrived at the scene of the problem, a woman sicced her dog on them—one of these little battery operated dogs that yapped. Often underestimated, this dog was too quick for the agents. My friend's partner drew his revolver and emptied it trying to hit the dog. He missed all five times. He then grabbed the nearest thing he could find, an old aluminum trash can lid, and literally beat the dog to death with it. The woman, who had been laughing during the entire attack, was now crying uncontrollably and swearing loudly at the two agents. They arrested her, put the dog's body in a plastic bag and then sought out a doctor to treat the one agent's injuries to his leg and ankle.

Pepper spray is probably a better alternative than firearms in most cases, but having spoken to a number of dog trainers, I've yet to talk to one that will have ANYTHING to do with a Pit Bull. There are people in this world who will defend Pit Bulls to the end, and there are people who used to defend Pit Bulls until theirs attacked them or a neighbor, seemingly without cause.

[Funderb]

ith that said would any of you ever shoot a dog if it threatened to harm you and of course i mean more that just barking and haveing a menacing demenor.


Yes I would. I have seen what dogs can do, and somehow they can kill and mutilate without firearms, which boggles the brady mind.

[Dr_2_B]

You guys'll find this story interesting. The next door neighbor's miniature collie seriously has some emotional problems - serious anxiety evident by erratic behavior. Anyway, the thing kept getting through the gap in its fence and charging me. And I mean, it was CHARGING me with clear intent to do me harm. After about a dozen times, when the neighbors did nothing to prevent this, I began to carry pepper spray. I hit the dog a couple times with pepper spray and he retreated immediately back to his yard.

But that's not the best part. The best part is that the dog no-doubt carried that pepper spray irritant into the home on its coat and probably caused some pretty good discomfort to the family. Immediately they sealed the gap in the fence. Problem solved.

Wasn't it Hannibal on The A Team who used to say through his cigar-clenched teeth, "I love it when a plan comes together."

[icebones]

i have (sadly) had to shoot 2 dogs, (one was rabid, and one was a stray pitbull that had already jumped on and killed a beagle) i have no predijuce aganst a pit bull or any other breed of dog, but rather the owner that make them into agressive dogs.

its like what ArmedBear said about some dog breeds.

i have two bullmastiffs, and the temperment of the dog depeds on the owner.

those two dogs are calm and gentile, i trust those dogs enough to play with my 3 year old cousin, and they have never attacked a human, they HAVE killed snakes, coyoties and other varmits that have found their way into the chicken coop before.

the only time i have ever seen those dogs act agressive towards a human, was the time when the local "thug" had a little too much to drink and decided he wanted to go around looking for trouble.
just so happened he wound up at my driveway.

the police were on the way, and a guy holding a shotgun and two large dogs was enough to turn him around, long story short, he spent the rest of that night and the next day in the "drunk tank" at the local sherrifs office.

dogs are mans best friend, and a good dog is a loyal companion, needles to say, they are people out there who turn dogs into vicious animals.

[MCgunner]

I have killed an attacking dog. Actually, he attacked my two cats in the yard, I waded into it kicking him, he turned on me. I shot him before he did me much harm, though my tom cat got bit on the foot and mama got a busted leg out of the deal and had to go to the vet. He bit me on the leg, but I was moving and it was a glancing blow. That's what made me decide to take him out. I got arrested, spent 2800 on a lawyer and it got dismissed. So, think about it first even if you're being attacked. Seems dogs have more rights than humans. There's a whole animal cruelty statute all its own in Texas law. Legal defenses to prosecution are if it's klling live stock or self defense or defense of property, but that don't mean you won't get arrested and let he courts sort it out at your expense. If you got a knife, you might wanna risk a few bites for a silent kill. Stab, shovel, and shut up.

There is a guy in north Houston that strangled a dog to death, but it tore him up pretty good before he got it killed. Up to you as to how much pain. I'm wishing I'd have done that. I didn't know if the dog was stray or what, just that it was attacking and mean as hell. If I'd let it get to me, I could have sued the people down the street, I guess. That would help out my retirement a bit, though they ain't got much other than their house, but hey, I'd put 'em on the street. We have a leash law in this town and they own 3 such vicious dogs. Damned things get off the leash all the time.

Yeah, I've shot a few feral dogs, too. Chaps me off that people dump dogs like that, but they do. I've found a deer skeleton on my place once that I'm pretty sure was dogs. Coyotes or a bobcat would have ate it and scattered the bones more. Funny thing, though, I have more problems with feral packs in town than out there, go figure.

I had a lab for a while. I just can't keep a dog in town, though, they have a way of breaking the leash and I refuse to keep 'em penned up. That dog was a fantastic retriever, though. He got killed or stolen, not sure. He was here one day, gone the next. I was off hunting in west Texas and the wife was here. If I had a big run, maybe, but in town, keeping a bigger dog is a pain. I'm not real sure why those people down the street mess with it. I had a Beagle for a while, too, got bit by a rattler and died. Poor little fellow, was a good rabbit hound. I have a thing for labs being a life long duck hunter. Nothing like having a hunting buddy that's just waiting on YOU to go. I've always liked Beagles, too, guess because a friend had a good one when I was growing up that I loved to shoot rabbits over.

BUT, that's why I have cats for pets. They stay around. They're fixed, so they don't prowl so much. Well, tom cat got killed by dogs....again. I've had four litters killed by dog packs right on my front porch and several adult cats over the last several years. I'm down to one now, not sure how long she'll last. Maybe I'll try fish, next. :rolleyes: The cats sure keep the rats down out in my old shop building, though. That makes 'em useful.

One morning, when I chased the dogs off my front porch after they'd killed off several cats about 4AM, I called the cops just to get 'em down here to take my statement and record it. The cop told me he was called out to the bay front out in front of my house about 150 yards by two guys wade fishing. That dog pack (sounded like the same one) was stalkin' them and they were afraid to get out of the water. PD dispatch told him to shoot 'em if he could, but he said they moved on. I'm not the only one with the problem down this street, either. A friend with a cat a mile and a half down the road lost his cat to them. They're really bad in this town.

Another true story, friend of mine called just the other day, says a friend of his, local MD, had bought an old house and was cleaning it up to fix it up for sale. It's an old house and the renters were 6 months back on their rent when he ran 'em off. The left a friggin' pot bellied pig in the house. He didn't know what to do with it, my buddy decides he's going to try to slaughter it. Well, he says to me he got a rope around it and went to drag it out and he couldn't do it and it bit him. ROFL! Guy was scared of the danged pig. So, on the way over there to help him, I asked him how much the thing weighs. He says "150 to 200 lbs". Guess that was the fear talkin' cause when I opened the bathroom door where he was, he was all of maybe 60-75 lbs. ROFL! I got a rope over his neck and drug him out no problem kickin' and squeelin' and stuck him in the back of the truck. Now, my buddy knows what I went through with an attacking dog and I told him I don't know what they law would be on shootin' a pet pig, screwed up as animal cruelty laws are. We were going to run down to the gun range and pop it, out of town, but he decided to take it to a farmer friend of his to pen it for a while. He bought some feed corn to fatten it up. It was kind of scrawny being abandoned in that house for who knows how long.

Long post, but just be aware that animal cruelty laws are super stupid now days. Yeah, I don't believe in shooting pets, didn't wanna shoot that stupid pig! Hell, I've killed a buncha pigs, wild ones, stabbed 'em with a knife, killed 'em in a trap with a handgun, shot 'em from a stand and while still hunting. Those were wild. But, hey, if a dog attacks you like it did me and you shoot it, you could be spending the night in lock up waiting on the judge to set bail next morning. Just a word to the wise.

[The Bushmaster]

icebones...My sentiments exactly. That's why I said that I'd rather shoot the owner...

Yup, MCgunner...The "3-S's" are a good rule...

[nosliw]

i love all animals. and it saddens the hell out of me to kill anything. with that said, i've had to put down-

4 dogs, had animal control come and pick them up
6 coyotes, bonfire
12 raccoons, in the trash
3 possums, in the trash

because they were all cornering or attacking either my dog or one of my cats.

so...... 9mm or 45acp for dogs? :D

[PawDaddy]

Killing a dog that needs killing is not like killing a pet. In the summer of 05 my daughter's kitten was killed on our front porch by a chow that had been running the streets. The animal control folks actually had her captured, but someone claimed her and then she was back running around the neighborhood. She had two or three puppies running with her.

After she killed the kitten, I went on a hunt for her. I never saw her again. But, if I had and especially if she was in my yard I would have shot her down. Hopefully she got ran over or came to an end of some kind.

I have killed a couple of dogs, but not just to kill them. I have put many old strays in flight with a few BB's to the rump when I was a kid.

[tipoc]

For perspective...

From 1991-2003 in the U.S. there have been an average of 6 Mountain Lion attacks on humans per year resulting in an average of 1 death per year for those years covered.

For the last 100 years in all of North America (U.S., Canada, Arctic areas) there has been an average of 1 reported death per year from bear attacks. This includes Black, Brown and Polar bears.

From 1991-2001 there were 208 reported deaths in the U.S. from dog attacks. Many more maimings, many serious.

Of course 533 people died from stings from bees, wasps, and hornets during the same period, 91-01.

tipoc

[The Bushmaster]

Guess we better consentrate on shooting more things that sting, huh...:D

[tipoc]

Here...

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

The other thing a person can glean from the info. here is how many folks buy a dog because they feel it is a "tough" dog that fits their image then they don't properly train it or look after it.
tipoc

[MCgunner]

Of course 533 people died from stings from bees, wasps, and hornets during the same period, 91-01

A girl that my daughter went to school with had her dad killed by a killer bee swarm. I've heard of a few others in the area, sorta freaks ya out. However, I bet a lot thes statistics are people allergic to stings. Some folks are terribly allergic to insect stings. I'm glad I'm not. I'd have been dead a long, long time ago.


The other thing a person can glean from the info. here is how many folks buy a dog because they feel it is a "tough" dog that fits their image then they don't properly train it or look after it.
tipoc

Yeah, for sure. I think the guy down the street who's dog I shot (BTW, 9mm is plenty :D) is afflicted with this testosterone syndrome. He was a trucker, not sure what he does now. Retired, I guess. Hell, I ain't seen him in a long time, might be in prison for all I know. His boys were always in trouble, daughter knew 'em in school. Cops showed up at the graduation party over there, drag racing down the street stoned/drunk. Arrested the lot. This guy came home one day and this kid was beating the crap out of his kid in their front yard. He took one of those long pipes they use to ratchet down the chains on the load and beat the kid to death, broke his skull. Guy got no billed for it, "protecting his son." Guess so, I wasn't on the grand jury and don't know details. Probably a drug fight or something and the kid might well have been armed.

This type of folk seem to have the mean dogs. It's a macho thing and in his case, might have been protecting a meth lab or the grow lights and pot plants in his garage or something. Lord knows...:rolleyes:

[10-Ring]

In a heart beat.

A few years ago, I had 2 dogs come after me. I got one, but the other bit me on the leg...since then, I haven't been much of a dog fan & since then I've decided if it were ever to happen again, I would take down both dogs.

[WVMountainBoy]

I have two doggy notches to my gun belt. Both tried to come at me in my yard. Both belonged to neighbors. In both cases they were dogs that were normally tied but slipped their chains. A .38 dispatched them both with ease. In one case it was very early and in another it was very late. I got in touch with the owners as soon as I could and told them what had happened. In the first case they were very snotty and rude, but in the second case they apologized and were very sorry that the dog had tried to come at me. If you keep a dog that will bite, you're only asking for trouble.

[1911Tuner]

If you keep a dog that will bite, you're only asking for trouble.


Yep. While I hate the thought of having to shoot a dog...even one that seems bent on doing me harm...I'm not about to let one chew on me in order to prove that I'm a dog lover.

I've shot two myself...and even though I was justified...it still caused me no small measure of grief. I lay the blame on the owners.
They neglected their responsibility and the dogs paid with their lives.

[RickH]

I had an experience with an aggressive pit bull once. It came charging across the street at me, looking all business. I had my coat over my left arm and I spun it to give a nice thick padded forearm for the first bite. I then pulled my knife (all I was carrying at the time) which did not impress the dog at all. I backed up yelling "bad dog" over and over. The dog finally turned and pranced off, happy with her performance. It was all bluff. If I had a gun on me I probably would have shot that damn dog.
If you have a dog bigger than punt (the verb, as in kick it 30 yards) size, keep it leashed or fenced in.

[MachIVshooter]

would any of you ever shoot a dog if it threatened to harm you and of course i mean more that just barking and haveing a menacing demenor.

Yes I would, and have. And if the dog is on my property, menacing demeanor is enough. Dogs that act agressively toward people without provocation need to be destroyed. Now when I say that, understand that I don't mean a dog that growls at strangers coming onto the property that the dog belongs to. I mean dogs like the Australian Sheperd my ex had that once snapped at my friend's 5 year old daughter's face for no reason. The dog was disciplined, and my ex was informed that if the dog ever went after a person again, I would put it down post haste.

A dog that is on my property and is a threat to any of my pets will also be killed. I don't see it as being any different than a person who comes to my home wishing to do harm to someone in my household.

[Richmond]

Do you have some citation for a "nationwide leash law"?

Just remember that there is a leash law USA wide and in some, if not all or most, states there are also fence laws i.e. if your dog can touch the top of the fench with it's front paws while on it's hind legs you legally have to raise that fence 2ft higher.

That certainly is not the law in the jurisdiction I live in. In fact, immediately around me I have:

state parks - dogs on leash only

state forest land - dogs specifically allowed off leash

federal conservancy lands - dogs specifically allowed off leash in many areas (which is good, since this is prime waterfowl hunting land)

municipal conservancy/wilderness areas - some on leash required, some specifically dogs off leash, some are designated wetlands training areas for retrievers

city parks - some no dogs at all, some dogs on leash only, but there is one area that allows dogs off leash. Frankly, the idea of turning my dogs off leash in a city park does not appeal to me much, even though they are well trained on voice commands, but I see people there with their dogs off leash, chasing balls and frisbees, and so on.

Federal parks under the nps have a leash requirement. This can cover some areas such as parkways, etc.

Point is, there may a a wide variety of laws that apply. The laws applying to shooting a dog, or other domestic animals, also vary widely both by jurisdiction and circumstance. The vast majority of states now have statutes that can get you charged with a felony if you shoot an animal in circumstances not deemed justified. While a bona fide threat to safety or that of livestock is generally justified. shooting an animal on the street or even on your property can get you charged - and fast. I have several such cases right now. They really are becoming more common. This will vary a lot geographically, of course.

It is best to take the time to learn the specific laws of the jurisdiction you live in, hunt in, etc.

[1911 guy]

Yappy or growling dog? Probably not. Dog coming at me in a dead run with ears laid back and looking to bite my legs off and chew the stumps? Yes.

I like dogs, have always had at least one dog most of my life. That doesn't negate the fact that some dogs are just bad eggs, due to how they were treated or some accident of bad genetics.

Just like carrying against two legged predators, be sure you really are in danger. Some dogs will come charging at you just to get their ears scratched. I'd hate to shoot one of those types.

[MCgunner]

Leash laws are generally city ordinances. Ours is. The constitution doesn't allow (tenth amendment) for such a national law.

I just paid off my lawyer today, final $625 I owed him. All that CRAP is history now, case dismissed, got my carry permit back, got my 9mm and my NAA .22 back. Still miffs me off when I think about it, but I'll get over it, I guess.

[ZeSpectre]

A dog that appears aggressive gets the same MMO (Means, motive, opportunity) assessment that I give just about any other potential threat.

Used to live near a military base and at the time you could hike their nature/training trails (but you had to be unarmed to go on base). During one hike this BIG German shep comes bounding up the trail, freezes for a second, and goes completely into aggressive mode, teeth bared, growling, and starts to creep towards me.

Oh SNAP, all I've got is a 5ft oak walking staff. Well I'm just about to start swinging at the dog and another guy comes around the bend and calls the dog to him.

Me - It's a good thing you showed up.
Him - He's just a big baby, he'd never hurt anyone.
Me - That may be so but I had no way to know that so you might want to get your dog back on a leash so nobody has a misunderstanding or gets hurt.
Him - Hey it's a free f***ing country so why don't you mind your own business.
Me - I -was- minding my own business until your dog came charging along the trail.
Him - Yeah whatever (and he stalks off in a huff).

Met up with an MP friend of mine and we waited at the trailhead until that joker showed up (dog still running free off the leash in violation of clearly posted regulations).

I consider it extremely likely that I would have shot that dog if I'd been armed at the time and as it turns out I would have been justified since the guy had already been told to keep his dog off base because it had bitten someone previously.

[USMCDK]

You will get over it after, oh I don't know, 500 rounds a piece down at you local indoor firing range, MCgunner. Kudos to you winning the case and rabbit pellets (I mean $#!t) to those that arrested you and the law statue that made you have to go through all that rig-a-maraw

[Flopsy]

I'm afraid I would. This was my neighbor's dog. He moved away before anything happened. Good for him.

I took these in advance of taking any action in order to protect myself.

[Moonclip]

Nice doggy! But how did you take pics and point gun at same time?:)

[Flopsy]

I didn't have a gun when I took those pics. I bought my Mossy a few days later. A few days after that, the guy moved away.

Funny, that.

[Ruger1280]

I wouldn't hesitate - remember almost always its the owners that have made the dog that way; he(the dog) usually can't help it, but usually pays the price.

I have had to shoot several dogs in my lifetime, It has NEVER been good or fun - it just had to be. (Mostly because of stupid owners)

Sorry ...

Dave

[Confederate]

I think that is because any human old enough to be a threat to anything larger than a mouse knows they better cut it out when someone draws on them, and if they don't then they have made their own decision, what happens when they catch 2-10 bullets is the direct result of their own decisions, no one else's.
True, but many dogs also know what guns do. They may not know the way a gun functions, but many of them have seen the results. Also, a man with a weapon tops almost any dog in existence. Many dogs will thus not attack a man with a staff or a machete.

I had a friend who was out mending fences on a ranch one day. A cougar dropped from a nearby tree and charged him in broad daylight. He had a Dan Wesson .357 mag and dropped it with one shot. Suspicious, he sent the head to the Center for Disease Control in Denver and they confirmed it was rabid.

My father grew up in western Kentucky back before rabies shots. Bein' from the country, he recalls a man bit by a rabid dog. There's two types of rabies—ferocious and paralytic—and this guy had the former. He said that as his mind began going they tied him to a log to keep him from running off or harming someone else. If it had been a dog, they would have shot him. In fact, my dad said he lost one of his favorite hunting dogs to rabies. It was just like Old Yeller. Once it began to exhibit signs, he had to shoot it with his .22 rifle. It really did him in emotionally.

With rabies, one really shouldn't take too many chances with dogs. I live in a populated area and had two dogs come at me, both setters. They got out of a back yard and were clearly working in concert. Living in Maryland, I can't get a permit and I had no other weapon with me. After that, I bought one of these unfolding aluminum police batons. You can beat a dog to death with one of those. Also works on people.

[coyotehitman]

I have shot plenty of dogs, some sick, some injured, some ready to eat me. If you have prepared yourself, you'll be amazed at how fast you break leather, take aim, and double tap a threat.

[BullfrogKen]

Like 1911Tuner, I am an avid dog lover. I don't elevate them to human status, but my dogs are an integral part of my family.

I have Jack Russells. They are bred to hunt. The first three years we had them, we had a terrible time keeping them in our fenced yard. It wasn't until I created a literal fortress with concrete and hardware cloth staked in the ground that finally stopped them from getting loose. I cringed every time I came home and discovered they had escaped. I also was thankful that in my rural area no gun owner shot them, thinking my dogs were simply some feral pack. They look a whole lot different after running the fields looking for the groundhogs and fox around here. There are times I didn't recognize them myself.


However, if someone had shot them, I would have understood it. My wife would not have. But I would have cried, gotten mad as hell, and buried them. I also would have a chip on my shoulder for my neighbor for a long, long time.


Remember that when you shoot a dog that belongs to a family, it is often a part of that family. The fight doesn't end when you shoot that dog. My dogs aren't the type to hurt anyone. But my male Jack is very territorial, and has a tendancy to protect his home, and protect those he loves - us. The part of his pack. Its instinctual.


We own dogs because we like that about them. They protect us. We are part of their pack, their pack leaders. The owner can be a responsible pack leader, or not. In the end, if a dog attacks someone its the dog that pays the price. If someone shot my dogs when they got loose, I understood I might be recovering a corpse. If I wasn't convinced they were a threat when they got shot, I'd become enraged. That's not conducive for neighborly relations.


In the end, its all situational specific. If I had to shoot a dog, I would. But I'd make damned sure I had literally no other options.

[LKB3rd]

I would, under the same circumstances I would shoot a human in self defense. If I was in danger of death or great bodily harm. I actually worry more about dogs attacking children than attacking me, as I am pretty big, and not afraid of dogs generally(unless they are very large and in a full sprint towards me). If I saw a dog attacking another person, putting them in jeopardy of death or great bodily harm, I would also shoot it.

[Sato Ord]

First, yes, if I'm willing to defend myself, I'm willing to defend myself. I would definitely kill a dog that is a threat to me.

I've handled and trained dogs for many years. I've trained police dogs, bomb squad dogs, drug sniffing dogs, personal protection dogs, and guard dogs, as well as done a whole lot of obedience training on regular mutts. For my next project I am actually considering getting a good dog like a Belgian Shepherd and training for search and rescue.

Now that my qualifications are hanging out there I'll make a few comments.

Bulldogs, mastiffs, etc. don't respond to pain like we do. There are stories of dogs with their guts ripped out, still hanging onto bulls. It's not appropriate to use a choke chain or slip lead for training on these dogs, because if they get it in their head that there's something they want on the other side of the street, they'll just hang themselves, pulling with their own strength against the choke lead

Like so many who post about these dogs you have some things right and some wrong.

You're right, once these types of dogs get wound up pain isn't the deterrent that it is for other animals. They get an adrenalin rush and keep going. But remember, the stories of dogs with their intestines trailing behind them are retold as "stories of glory" because they were unusual in nature. Blood loss and shock are still effective tools when dealing with such an animal.

As for not being able to use choke chains, that's big news to me. I've been training such dogs effectively with choke chains and a standard six to ten foot lead for a long time. The dogs respond well and learn quickly; shame I've been doing it wrong for all of these years.

Don't mistake poor handling on the part of the dog's owner for bad behavior on the part of the dog.

I currently own a Great Dane. That's one of the mastiff breeds in reality. My dog is a sweet heart, and when I walk her she stays right beside my left knee at heel with slack in the lead. She has tried to take me for a drag once and the choke chain put an end to that quickly because I know how to use properly. She wasn't hurt by the correction, but she got the idea quickly and hasn't pulled a similar stunt.

Properly used a choke chain is a communication tool, not a punishment device. All dogs will respond to them, even Pits, Mastiffs, other Bulls, Rotties, and Dobes.

I haven't read every response so I may be saying this prematurely, but at least I haven't seen the old garbage about Pits having "jaws that lock". That is a load of nonsense. Pits and all other Bull Dogs, do not have "special locking jaws" that are configured differently than other dogs, they simply have a lot of jaw strength. When they latch on they are able to hold on, and crush bone.

Now for some basic safety concerning dogs. Dogs are territorial, if you are in their perceived territory they will defend it. This usually involves mostly display. The advice of backing away that was given wasn't bad. However, I might not shout at the dog while doing so. Dogs often take shouting as aggression and respond in kind.

Never turn and run. First, you can't outrun a dog, they are faster. Second, running can activate the hunting instinct and actually cause them to run you down and bite.

Make eye contact, but don't do it aggressively. Predators make eye contact, prey avoid it. However, don't get into a dominance game with unfamiliar dog, you might lose, especially if the dog is being territorial. Let the animal know you see him, but don't make him think you are "staring him down".

Also, it was pointed out that the dog will go for your extended hand, or a stick. That's instinct, and that instinct is used to good effect when training dogs to defend against weapons. That's why they can be trained to go for the gun in the guy's hand so easily.

If you think the dog is just posturing and will let you back away, keep your hands down. Putting your hand up is a sign of aggression and an attack could be the result of your behavior in such a case.

The biggest instance of this type of attack usually goes something like this.

Stranger: "Does your dog bite?"

Owner: "No, she's the sweetest puppy in the world."

Stranger reaches suddenly over, palm down, hand coming down from about waist high to pet the dog on top of the head.

Dog thinks this idiot is reaching down to smack her the head and bites preemptively.

Owner doesn't understand the dogs behavior and chastises causing a neurotic reaction that is later passed on to other strangers in an attempt to avoid being chastised for no goos reason. Stranger get stitches and decides that the dog is vicious.

Honestly, folks, I highly recommend that you read some books about dog behavior. They really do use sound and body language to communicate.

Try starting with a book titled "Adam's Task" by Vicki Hearne

As for drawing your weapon when threatened by a dog, that is a judgment call just like any other self defense situation. Remember, you don't have long to decide. The average dog can run at speeds in excess of 35 miles per hour; they can cross a yard or park lawn much more quickly than you might be thinking. Also, as it has been said, they are a small target as well as fast moving. If you are going to shoot, make the first one count because they just might not shy from the noise.

[Flopsy]

I agree that all other reasonable options should be exhausted, if possible. In my case, I had once maced the dog in my pictures when it came after me. I had also kicked it square in the face once when it charged me. It flipped on its back and then tried to flank me around the back of a car, before its owner intervened. Once, I had to beat it with a collapsible baton when it came after me. And all during, I gave it food and water (pushing it close with a stick) when its owner neglected it in order to try to get it to like me, or at least not hate me. The thing was literally determined to kill me. Finally, I bought the gun.

[MCgunner]

The rabies thing is a good point. I reckon it's better to err on the safe side if you don't know the dog and suspect it's feral. Otherwise, it if has a collar or I know the dog, I might just take it on with a knife and sue the owner if it chews me up. Hopefully, I can bolster my retirement income with the pain and suffering. LOL I'll take their house, take their car, whatever. I think civil suit would make a better deterrent than just killin' their dog. I'd be willing to get a few stitches at the emergency room for a couple hundred grand.

If you have prepared yourself, you'll be amazed at how fast you break leather, take aim, and double tap a threat.

That's one thing that amazed me about my incident. I carry and practice with a Kel Tec P11, a DAO pocket auto that is very accurate, but has a long 10 lb trigger (the old trigger spring, new ones are 8 lbs). I am a good DA shooter and prefer the trigger for pocket carry. I get nervous if the gun has too light or short a trigger even in a good pocket holster.

Anyway, when that dog attacked me, I had my adrenalin levels up already from trying to get the thing off my cats, I drew the gun without even thinking about it and that DA trigger felt like a 2 lb 1911 trigger, LOL! Seriously, it was almost as if the gun aimed and fired itself. I just got a flash sight picture of a front sight on fur and BOOM! It was so fast, yet it was almost like slow mo when it was happening. Guess that was the adrenalin slowing things down. I guess it was a good test of my preparation and practice, if an expensive test in the end. I never got that sort of experience out of IDPA or any other competition. In competition, you might be a bit nervous about doing well, but you still consciously think about the process. It was as if I didn't even have to think, it just happened. This is the first time in my 55 years I've ever had to fire my weapon in self defense. I pulled a .25 on a mugger with a knife once, but he ran for the hills at first sight of a gun. I shot a wounded hog once that was coming after me when I tracked him down in the brush, got some adrenalin going on that one to the point I had to sit down and stop shaking after the fact. But, this was a novel experience. I already had the gun ready and out of the leather with that hog. This dog attack, I drew and fired and didn't even have to think about it.

[plexreticle]

The temperament of a dog says a lot about the owner.

[XDKingslayer]

Honestly, folks, I highly recommend that you read some books about dog behavior.

Why? It's much easier to simply shoot something than it is to understand it...

[MCgunner]

I've owned a lot of dogs. I probably know as much as you about dog behavior. I've even trained retrievers. You can toss the book out the window, though, when a dog comes in your yard and starts attacking your cats and then you when you try to save 'em. IMHO, that dog NEEDED killin', owners fault or not. I have no remorse about it. I was protecting my cats and it was just a damned dog, after all. :rolleyes: I don't think it deserved to live any more than the two cats it was attacking, or me for that matter. Don't anthropomorphize animals. That's what PETA does.

[XDKingslayer]

Don't anthropomorphize animals.

We aren't. We're just tired of all the ignorance and prejudice when it comes to dogs.

Here's an excerpt from the wikipedia entry on pit bulls on general misconceptions of the breed. Each and every one of these misconceptions were covered here by this very thread by people who THINK they know what they're talking about.

Misconceptions

[edit] Locking jaws
Many sources propagate the myth that pit bulls have a "locking jaw" mechanism, and that the dog cannot let go once it has bitten. This is untrue. According to Dr. I. Brisbin, a senior researcher with the Savannah River Ecology Laboratory, University of South Carolina: [37]

“ The few studies which have been conducted of the structure of the skulls, mandibles and teeth of pit bulls show that, in proportion to their size, their jaw structure and thus its inferred functional morphology, is no different from that of any breed of dog.
There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of 'locking mechanism' unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier.
”

[38]

Furthermore, the pit bulls that compete successfully in protection sports such as Schutzhund obviously do not display an inability to release their grips after biting, as releasing the decoy's sleeve on command is an integral part of scoring the competition. [39] Reports of pit bull type dogs refusing to release a bite grip is more likely a function of the breed's gameness—a willingness to engage in a task despite pain and discomfort.

A variant of the "locking jaw" story is told by Tom Skeldon, Lucas County (Ohio), dog warden, who said that an impounded pit bull that had been used in fighting started "going wild," biting at the walls of the kennel.[40] He shot the dog with a tranquilizer, and then left it for five minutes to let it pass out. When he came back the dog had indeed passed out, but not before it had leaped up and clamped its jaws on a cable used to open the door of the kennel. "Everything else was relaxed, the dog was out cold, but its jaws wouldn't let go of that cable, and he was hanging in midair," said Skeldon. "Not even a jaguar will do that."

However, an incident reported by the Associated Press suggests that other breeds may also fail to relax their jaws when they become unconscious. An Albuquerque police officer was attacked, in October 2005, by a Belgian Malinois, a dog used for herding and police work, with no significant commonality with "pit bulls." The dog bit the officer on the arm. When the officer couldn't shake free, she shot the dog, killing it. Still, other officers had to come to her aid, and pry the dead dog's jaws off the officer's arm.


[edit] Inability to feel pain
Another common misconception is that pit bulls don't feel pain. However, pit bulls have the same nervous system as any other breed, and they can and do feel pain. Historically, those dogs that would tolerate or ignore discomfort and pain and finish the task they were required to perform were the dogs that were bred and the sort of dogs breeders strove to produce. This is the trait of “gameness” that so many breed fanciers speak of, which may be defined as “The desire to continue on and/or complete a task despite pain and discomfort”. Therefore, the difficulty in deterring a pit bull from its task is in fact not an inability to feel pain but rather a desirable trait in any trained working dog. It is clearly shown in herding dogs which continue to herd despite a broken limb.


[edit] Only breed unaffected by pepper spray or other pain when attacking
Another urban myth surrounding this breed states that pit bulls are the only type of dog that are not affected by capsaicin-based dog-repellent sprays. In fact, many other dog breeds also display this resistance to pepper spray when they are attacking. Documented cases include Bull Mastiffs, Rottweilers and many German Shepherds (including Police K-9's).[41] In the words of two police officers, it is "not unusual for pepper spray not to work on dogs" [42] and "just as OC spray doesn't work on all humans, it won't work on all canines." [43]

It is also untrue that the pit bull is the only dog that will keep attacking after being sub-lethally shot. Rottweilers, Mastiffs and German Shepherds have all exhibited this capacity. [44][45]


[edit] Unpredictable
Research performed by Goodpooch.com director, the late Marjorie Darby, finds that dogs involved in attacks overwhelmingly have a known history of aggression, even though their owners may deny or minimize this fact.[46] The neighbors are usually a better source for documenting negative aspects of a dog's history than the owners are. As such, it is further evidence that dogs, including "pit bulls", don't just "turn" on their owners. A follow-up to a CDC report on dog bite fatalities came to a similar conclusion. [47]

[MCgunner]

Well, dog or human, you attack me, I shoot you. That's why I carry, to protect myself against attack. I'm not going to try to reason with you. I'm not going to offer you a doggy biscuit. I'm just going to put you down before you do me harm. It's that simple. You're on MY property attacking MY cats, then you won't run off, but attack ME when I try to run you off? You're dead, fido. Game over, especially since I didn't know you from a rabid stray. I really don't care about the owners or who's at fault for your behavior, you're goin' down. I won't walk onto your turf and shoot you. Do me a favor and don't walk on my turf and attack me.

[MarcusWendt]

Watch the dog whisperer. :) Don't shoot dogs... Unless it's an absolute last resort.

I'm a near middle aged guy, healthy, pretty strong. I think I'd fight first. Of course a lot depends on the type and number of dogs attacking.

If my child were with me, it would be a different story. I'd likely shoot sooner.

Still, I hate to even contemplate that scenario. I think any dog that is not secured and is the type that would attack... well, I'd rather shoot the irresponsible owner before I'd want to hurt the animal.

[MCgunner]

Most of the dogs I've had problems with here have no owner, feral. I did not know about this dog and he had been in my yard with a feral pack before killin' cats when I chased 'em off. None of 'em had ever attacked me before until he did.

Anyway, my cats are my kids. :D Well, maybe not, but when my house cat got out one night and they killed her and I found her dead a few days later mowing the back yard, that REALLY pissed me off. This feral dog stuff had been going on for a couple of years leading up to this dog attack. Yet, a few weeks before I'd run one of those people's dogs off my yard who was after my cats. He didn't attack me, I didn't shoot him.

I am not doing to mess with a dog if it attacks me, I'm sorry. I'm not a ninja, I'll just shoot if that's the only weapon I can get at, unless I happen to have a nice baseball bat or axe handy, maybe a chain saw. You can get pretty chewed up stabbin' a dog and if there's any chance of rabies, I don't think taking the risk is what I wanna do.

What is really the difference in shooting a feral dog or a coyote???? Well, the feral dogs kills to be killin'. The coyote only kills what he can eat. Yet, folks kill coyotes. I've shot a few off the deer stand, myself. I've killed a hell of a lot of animals in my day. I'm licensed by the state of Texas and the Department of the interior to do it, it's called a hunting license.

. well, I'd rather shoot the irresponsible owner before I'd want to hurt the animal.

Well, now days, laws screwed up as they are, you'd probably get probation for first degree murder. You'd get 20 years in the electric chair for shooting a dog. Guess you have a point. :rolleyes:

[Flopsy]

I know a lot about dog behavior, so I don't need a preachin'. I'm a former volunteer at an animal shelter, where I worked with anti-social dogs to try to get them to a point where they were adoptable to families so they wouldn't get put down. I've put in the time, sweat, and tears just because I wanted to and never took a dime.

No amount of understanding is going to make me want to have an animal rip my throat out.

Dog was trying to kill me. Look at the pics!



Edit: And I didn't include the pics of the rawhide treat I gave it to try to calm it down, or the bowl of water I gave it because the owner left it in the hot sun without water, or the pics of it running around without a lead, etc.

[XDKingslayer]

MCGunner: Don't anthropomorphize animals.

MCGunner: Anyway, my cats are my kids.

And you expect me to take you seriously from this point forward? Little anti-dog are we?

[coyotehitman]

Nice doggy! But how did you take pics and point gun at same time?

You haven't seen the cameras that attach to a picatinny rail?

[MCgunner]

And you expect me to take you seriously from this point forward? Little anti-dog are we?

No, I'm not anti dog. I'm anti having dogs come in my yard and kill off every cat I get in the past 4 years. Who gives you the right to let your dog into my yard to kill my cats? You torture cats when you were a kid? That's cruelty, ya know. Why is it not cruelty to let your dogs kill my cats, but it's cruelty when I catch 'em in the act and shoot the dog when it attacks me? You got something against cats? I've never heard of a house cat killing a man. Can't say the same for dogs. I'd treat a man just like I treated that dog if he came in this yard attacking me.

[BullfrogKen]

And on that note . . .