[patrolman]

Been reading up on the 45 super lately and have a few questions to those that are familiar with the cartridge.
It seems to me that a 1911 "converted" to 45 super is nothing more than a quality 1911 with a heavier (28-30 lb) recoil spring and a shock buff, so long as the barrel chamber offers sufficient case support.
I have also read that a "converted" 1911 should also sport a full-length guide rod, but I am uncertain as to whether this is needed in a 45 Super and if so, why?
In all, it would seem that "converting" one of my 1911s to fire 45 Super would add hunting capability for about $10.00, as opposed to rebarreling for a 460 Rowland or something similar for about $200.00.
Am I right or am I way off?
Thanks.

[roo_ster]

The guy at realguns.com thinks it is an $8 "conversion"

http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm

BTW, .45SMC is the Same Mother-something? Cartridge.

[rcmodel]

Just don't come whining about a cracked frame somewhere down the road. :D

IMHO: 1911's are about at their design limit with +P .45 ACP.

A stronger spring and thicker brass doesn't make them a 45 Magnum.

rcmodel

[roo_ster]

I dunno, I think .45Super is in their envelope of reasonable performance.

IMO, .45Super is a poor man's substitute for owning 1911s in both .45ACP and 10mm.

In other words, .45Super performance does not seem any more stressful than 10mm.

To split the slight difference between .45Super & 10mm, Corbon has .400Corbon, a .45ACP case necked down to 10mm/.40 cal.

.460 Rowland & .45 Winmag are in a whole 'nuther league.

[patrolman]

rcmodel,
won't come whining. promise. If I do go down this "conversion" road, there would only be a limited amount of Supers going downrange through the gun. regarding the cracked frame issue, would I be correct in thinking that stress cracks would develop over time, or is there a possibility of a frame "blowout" from the increased pressure? I would be looking to launch 230 gr at approximately 1100-1200 fps.

Jfruser,
A poor man’s substitute for a 10 milly is what I’m looking for. I don’t own a 10 milly, but I understand that they are structurally (e.g. frame and slide dimensions) identical to a .45 1911, right? Interested in that .45SMC, though. Does that share the same external case dimensions with 45 acp or no?

[1911Tuner]

It's not the frame that's at risk so much as the slide, and specifically the lugs...barrel and slide.

Just as the lugs and their recesses on a bolt-action rifle get pounded by the recoil forces, and start to increase headspace...so it goes for the locked breech/recoil operated autopistol.

The radial lugs of the 1911 are small, and even if they're all at optimum vertical engagement, and fully equalized in the horizontal plane...there's only about a half square inch of surface area bearing the brunt.

Then, there's the "stretch" area of the slide between the first lug wall and the breechface, and the sharp corners adjacent to the two breechface guide blocks and the first lug itself. Corners are areas of concentrated stress...called stress risers...and here is where a crack is most likely to form. Once the slide cracks in the stretch area...it's no longer safe to use even with low-powered "softball" loads. With each firing, the recoil forces are trying to separate the breechblock portion of the slide from the locking portion...and the crack allows the breech area to open...which lets the case back out of the chamber a little farther as the crack grows.

As the case backs further out, an increasing amount of head support is lost. Once it's gone far enough, the case bulges or bursts in the unsupported area at the barrel ramp. Hot gasses and brass shards are directed down into the magazine...possibly causing sympathetic detonation of one or more of the rounds there.

Not a pretty picture...is it?

I remember back when I was doin' the job...the .451 Detonics conversion was all the rage. We used to call it "The Lug Buster" and "The Slide Killer" around the shop. Some came back broken within a couple weeks, with as few as 100 rounds downrange.

This is not a good candidate for a "Drop-In" conversion. There were good reasons for Colt dropping the Delta Elite, and lack of sales wasn't one of them.


I would strongly suggest that you have a high-quality match-grade barrel carefully fitted to the gun for optimum lug engagement. If the gun has seen a lot of use, I also recommend having the slide magnafluxed to determine the structural integrity of the slide before starting with the project.

[BBBBill]

...I remember back when I was doin' the job...the .451 Detonics conversion was all the rage. We used to call it "The Lug Buster" and "The Slide Killer" around the shop. Some came back broken within a couple weeks, with as few as 100 rounds downrange...
There was a dude walking around the gunshows in the Southeast for years with 451 Detonics slide and guts. The front of the stainless slide had separated about 3/4" from the muzzle. According to him, it was on the first mag full. For some strange reason, he thought the pile of parts was worth a bunch of money just 'cause it said Detonics on the slide. :scrutiny: :confused:

[rcmodel]

There were good reasons for Colt dropping the Delta Elite, and lack of sales wasn't one of them.+1
We always hear about the 1911 in 10mm, and the Colt Delta Elite is always mentioned as proof that it works.

If Colt couldn't figure out a way to keep the Delta Elite together, what chance do we have?

rcmodel

[patrolman]

tuner,

not a pretty picture at all. if i understand you correctly, the recoil forces generated by the excess pressure in Super cartridges are the prime suspect in slide failure. this being the case, do you think a properly functioning compensator (as much as I detest compensators) would alleviate enough pressure after unlocking to mitigate the effects you describe? assuming, of course, that the gun is properly timed (learned that from previous tuner lesson-thanks)? if the comp won't do, please let me know... don't want to be turning my 1911 into a hand grenade:eek:. by the way, now that I'm thinking of timing, the excess pressure would require changing the timing to prevent lug battering, wouldn't it?

[1911Tuner]

If Colt couldn't figure out a way to keep the Delta Elite together, what chance do we have?

Exactly. While the 1911 is a fine pistol...it's not an exceptionally strong pistol. The system of locking the breech just isn't massive enough to handle forces too far beyond standard mil-spec hardball. As was noted...+P is about it.

Patrolman...

Pressure isn't the killer. The gun is more than strong enough to stand the pressures. It's the recoil impulse that the locking system has to bear up under.

Think of bracing against a boxer's sharp left jab that generates about 200 ft-pounds of total force...as opposed to having him simply press his fist against your jaw with 200 ft-pounds of force.

[blindluck]

FWIW, here's some companies that think the 1911 can handle 10mm.

Colt is re-releasing the Delta Elite.
http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=44159&highlight=delta+elite

Dan Wesson continues to have their razorback:
http://czusa.net/product_detail.php?id=80

Kimber makes a number of models in 10mm:
http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/

And the newcomer Fusion Firearms has a number of 10mm 1911 models, including a longslide:
http://www.fusionfirearms.com/

I was also under the impression that only early Delta Elites had frame probs and that poor sales actually was the reason for their demise.

[1911Tuner]

I was also under the impression that only early Delta Elites had frame probs and that poor sales actually was the reason for their demise.

The frames were also coming under some pretty heavy damage in the impact abutments...but the slides were the main problem.

No. Sales weren't slow at all. Colt could barely keep up with demand...and then they couldn't keep up with the demand for replacement slides.

The 1911 hasn't changed much since 1912...aside from better steels and advanced heat-treatment methods...but it was still designed around a 230-grain bullet at 825-850 fps and a maximum of 20,000 pounds PSI. Bumping those figures up more than 50%...essentially .44 Magnum territory...will break your gun in short order.

Think of taking an engine to 9,000 rpms with a 5500 rpm redline...on a regular basis. Somethin' has gotta give, sooner rather than later.

[Ultima-Ratio]

To the OP and hopefully without insulting the mods here, I trust Clarks Custom Guns far more than anonymous online guncranks.

I've damaged no firearms using even the old Nonte .45 Super loads and the newer .450 SMC ammo by Triton.

Google is your friend!

[1911Tuner]

anonymous online guncranks.

I'll have to take exception to that.

I have seen 1911-pattern pistols damaged and destroyed with overloaded ammunition that didn't even approach .45 Super levels. Just recently, I saw a slide crack in the breech area after the owner fired 250 rounds of 230-grain cast RNs with 7.5 grains of Unique, while searching for that magic 1,000 fps line. He made it, too...but he also destroyed a low-mileage 1991A1 Colt slide in the process. I have the slide here, in case anyone who is within driving distance would like to examine it.

While Clark's Custom Guns builds a gun with the barrel optimally fitted, and thus more able to withstand the forces generated with what is essentially well above proof-level for the gun and cartridge...off-the-shelf factory assembled pistols aren't built with the sort of care that a custom smith uses...and the .45 Super conversions are most often done on a drop-in basis with less than optimum fitting.

Here's some companies that think the 1911 can handle 10mm.

They'll build whatever they can sell. If the demand was there, somebody would market a double-action revolver chambered for the .577 Nitro Express.

[blindluck]

1911tuner,

You know way more than me on the subject but Ted Yost might disagree with you.
http://www.customknivesandguns.com/ckgforums/showthread.php?t=9159&highlight=10mm
http://www.customknivesandguns.com/ckgforums/showthread.php?t=807&highlight=10mm
http://www.customknivesandguns.com/ckgforums/showthread.php?t=797&highlight=10mm
http://www.customknivesandguns.com/ckgforums/showthread.php?t=4395&highlight=10mm
http://www.customknivesandguns.com/ckgforums/showthread.php?t=5289&highlight=10mm

[Ultima-Ratio]

Take exception to what?

Guncrank?? If you are a gun guy you would recall the term guncrank was invented by none other than George Nonte describing himself...sorta complementary don'tyathink?

[1911Tuner]

I'm sure that Ted can build one that'll hold up as well as anybody...but he can't create extra steel...no matter how good he is. The stressed areas are still stressed areas. I'm talkin' limitations on the design here...not what can be done and made to work.

I'll leave the discussion with this:

If anyone believes that one can turn a .45 caliber 1911 pistol into a near .44 magnum with thick brass and a heavy recoil spring...without consequence...I won't bust his bubble.

I heard of a conversation between Ed brown and a customer who was having a few minor issues with one of his pistols. When Brown asked him what type of ammo he was using, the guy told him that it was the 200-grain H&G #68 at 950 fps.

Ed's response was:

"Whoa, man! You're gonna break my gun!"

Cheers

[Ultima-Ratio]

While Clark's Custom Guns builds a gun with the barrel optimally fitted, and thus more able to withstand the forces generated with what is essentially well above proof-level for the gun and cartridge...off-the-shelf factory assembled pistols aren't built with the sort of care that a custom smith uses...and the .45 Super conversions are most often done on a drop-in basis with less than optimum fitting

And sooo, are there many reports of the CCG drop in kits failing??

Also have to mention that the "magic" 230@1000fps was a production round from Super-Vel sold to the FBI in the 80s. Easy load to duplicate

[1911Tuner]

*sigh*

I knew better than to try and make sense on this discussion.

Lemme try again...

A parallel to the Super conversion is none other than the marvelous little K-frame Smith & Wesson revolver.

In its present incarnation, it was originally a fine .38 Special double-action revolver. At Bill Jordan's inisitence, Smith & Wesson rechambered it to take the .357 Magnum cartridge...and the trouble began shortly afterward.

Forcing cones cracked, and excessive headspace from topstraps stretched so badly that endshake washers couldn't correct it.

Why?

Because the gun was essentially being pushed far beyond its design limits, and even the upgraded metallurgy and heat-treat methods
could do little more than delay the inevitible.

Pretty soon, Smith & Wesson issued a suggestion to the effect:

"Ya'll need to take it a little easier on our revolvers, guys. How 'bout ya start usin' .38 Special for fun and hold off on the .357 stuff for business."

To no avail, it seems. People kept shooting the hot stuff in their little K-frames, and the guns kept breaking.

Sooooo....They introduced a new line of intermediate-framed revolvers that were designed to take the punishment of full-house .357 ammo, aimed at the segment of shooters who didn't like, or couldn't wrap their hands around, an N-frame revolver.

And sooo, are there many reports of the CCG drop in kits failing??

Give it time. I haven't even seen one yet...but I do remember all too well the carnage wrought by the .451 Detonics conversion...and that one was fairly mild compared to the Super's published ballistics.

[rcmodel]

Heres another way to look at it.

I was building National Match guns in 1969-70, on Colt & Remington-Rand GI frames that had been through two wars and a few police actions.

Those old GI guns got new recoil springs every war or two, whether they needed them or not.

How many of those .45 Super & 10mm guns will still be Match Grade material after 25+ years of continous use, thousands of rounds, one or two spring changes if lucky, and two or three wars?

You got to ask yourself that question.

rcmodel

[Ultima-Ratio]

rcmodel-
Your TWO examples are diametrically opposed..most GI guns have low round counts, at lest till they become competition guns.

In IPSC few frames crack, have an olde NM Colt three digit that finally cracked (stop drilled) at god knows how many rounds.

As for twenty five years of service, just buy another gun! Grin!

[blindluck]

Nobody is disagreeing with the concept that higher pressures lead to parts failing earlier or that there will be "some consequence" to a 1911 in 45 super or 10mm. Still, shoot them enough and they will ALL break including the 1911 in 45acp. Per this http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/other/Glock_vs_1911.htm the service life of a well made 1911 is 150,000 rounds including small parts breakage presumably running 21,000psi ammo. A well made 1911 in 10mm using 37,000psi loads will run how long with the same small parts breakage? 70,000 rounds? 30,000? Does a 28,000psi 45 Super split the difference?

The consequences of decreased service life will impact armorers, competitive shooters, manufacturer's warranty departments and those that think their 1911 will last forever. It's likely insignificant for the the vast majority of shooters who simply want a higher powered 1911.

Myself, I would be happy to have a gun that could reliably shoot a hypothetical 30,000 high pressure rounds before being retired.

[roo_ster]

1911Tuner:

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Lemme see if I can ferret out a little more detail, if you don't mind?

1. OK, it ain't the pressure, it is the pounding the lugs inside the frame gets.
So, it is a function of increased slide velocity, as it moves back & forth, or is it the stresses inflicted upon them after the cartridge discharges, while they are engaged, and before the system moves out of battery? If it is when the system is stationary, is it correct to state that an increased-strength recoil spring will not help in this case?

2. 10mm stress is enough to cause problems. Same with .45Super and .400Corbon. Problems will come sooner with factory guns, but be forestalled for some indeterminate time if a 'smith fits bbl to slide.
Clark's .460Rowland guns feature a compensator and they claim it is integral to their kit/system to prevent damage to the pistol. How would this reduce the stress to the lugs?

3. Are there any .45ACP-chambered pistols stout enough to withstand a steady diet of .45Super? The first that comes to mind as an alternative is the CZ-97.

[Big Boomer]

I do, I have done the conversion, works like a charm. It is NOT however $8. If you just throw in the recoil spring you are asking for trouble down the road.

You must get an EGW flat bottom firing pin stop. This will help with delaying the unlocking of the lugs, thus helping preventing shearing. And bringing the specs back to the way JMB had originally designed the gun.

This is not a science but more of an art.

1. Install EGW Flat bottom firing pin stop. (This will need to be fitted and is easy to do)

2. Install 24-20 lb recoil spring (start high go low)

3. FLGR is not required but does help with the recoil a bit.

4. Install extra power firing pin spring, and new firing pin (like a bullet proof one from wilson)

5. ONLY use 45 Super brass the webbing is thicker in the unsupported case area.

6. Shock buffs are not required but do help with frame battering, if you are going to ccw this don't put in the buffs, if they disintegrate while you are in need it can lock up the gun. But they are great for range practice.

7. Once again always start loads low and work your way up.

8. If you can have a smith check your barrel/slide lug engagement.

9. You may want to up your mainspring a little but don't over do it. I jumped up to a 25lb and it wouldn't even eject the spent casings. Way overpowered. Another thing is you lose that nice 3lb trigger too. (this is why it's more of an art than a science.) You have many things to modify and they all change the cycling quite a bit.

A few links in addition to the ones above...

The firing pin stop you need (check for series 70/80 first before buying there are 2)

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=6126&title=1911%20AUTO%20OVERSIZE%20FIRING%20PIN%20STOP

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=783780

Installing the EGW Firing Pin stop: Note you will need to be a member to see the pictures

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=13060

This pretty much sums it up.

You WILL notice the difference. There are some impressive energies to be had out of the 45 Super, and if you really want to try something great try the 460 Rowland I've got one of those too.

460 Rowland data:

http://www.realguns.com/loads/460Rowland.htm

45 Super data:

http://www.realguns.com/loads/45Super.htm

http://www.realguns.com/archives/020.htm

[1911Tuner]

My point in the response to the OP's query wasn't mean to stir the pot...only to make an assessment strictly from an engineering standpoint. It's an undeniable truth that stressing any design beyond its limits will shorten its service life, and...as noted...the 1911 has changed little since its debut.

There are still small lugs and load-bearing surfaces. The slides are still the same mass, and the steel in the critical area between the first lug wall and the breechface is still the same thickness.

So...Rather than continue to argue the point, I'll post this drawing. It accurately points to the weak spots. Let those who aspire to transform the pistol into something that it was never meant to be decide whether a shortened service life is worth the added 350 or so fps in muzzle velocity.

The two cracks in the port are recoil cracks, and are the most potentially dangerous. Keep a close eye on your slides for any indication of a crack here...on either side. If you see one...your slide is a paperweight. Don't fire the pistol...not even with downloaded "softball" ammunition.


The one at the spring tunnel is an impact crack. If this one starts and breaks all the way through, you get to find out how long it takes a surgeon to remove the slide from your sinus cavities.

I'll also repeat my original advice to the effect that...if that's your cup of tea...to have a good smith fit the barrel carefully.

Drawing courtesy of Dana Kamm.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e243/1911Tuner/StressCracks.jpg

[patrolman]

big boomer,
thanks for the info on your conversion.

tuner,
thanks for the info and insight, as always.

[BBBBill]

Those who wish to pursue this might want to think about why FN put a thicker slide on the Hi Power for the 40 S&W variant. Not to discourage anyone. Heck, I've got a 10MM that I built on a CASPIAN frame. I certainly don't know enough about 1911s to be certain, but my engineering background tells me not to be surprised if it doesn't live as long as my 45s even with the "enhancements" like the hard fit barrel and EGW stop plate.

[1911Tuner]

think about why FN put a thicker slide on the Hi Power for the 40 S&W variant.

Yep...and FN felt that this was a necessary design change for roughly equivalent pressures and velocities with a heavier bullet.

[BBBBill]

Yep...and FN felt that this was a necessary design change....

Exactly! :) Now if someone would build 1911 slides heavier in the critical areas, that would go a long way toward mitigating some of the extra stress. It won't get it all, but it would be a start. I would prefer to see more available locking surface for the barrel (third lug or Glock/Sig style?) and perhaps a cam lock system similar to the Peters-Stahl or Jarvis.

[1911Tuner]

I would prefer to see more available locking surface for the barrel (third lug or Glock/Sig style?) and .

Actually, that's the first lug...but we ain't gonna pick nits. :)

The space available in the standard 1911 slide limits the size of the lugs, and the height of the bore axis limits the vertical depth of engagement.
If it gets in deeper...it has to drop further in order to get clear of the slide...so another major design change would be required. If we keep trying to turn it into a .44 Magnum...pretty soon, it won't even look like a 1911 any more.

perhaps a cam lock system similar to the Peters-Stahl or Jarvis

"Lock" is a misleading term. The breech locks under pressure when the gun fires...and the lugs engage horizontally against the shearing force that's trying to rip them off the barrel and out of the slide. This is described in Browning's original patents.

I'm not familiar with either of the designs mentioned...but if a camming action is used, which actually toggles the barrel vertically into the slide...it does achieve a lock of sorts, but mainly serves to put the barrel in the same place between shots, and doesn't add to the strength of the lockup. In order to do that, the lugs have to be larger...more massive...because the pounding that they take is all in the horizontal plane.

[sniper350]

Well, as most of you know COLT is going to try making the Delta Elite again in 10mm of course.

I will be curious at what design changes they have made to solve some of the problems discussed here.

I know they have gone to a BULL BARREL design .......don't know how that impacts the stress riser problems ???

I have a Stainless Delta Elite right now that had litterally eaten itself up.
The Slide's disconnect slot is completely destroyed ......so much for hammer rebound on those thin series 80 disconnect walls !! So many problems -- don't know where to begin the rebuild. I now know and can see first hand what had Colt pulling the plug on this model.

My dad always told me " You can't stuff 10 lbs of potatoes in a 5 lbs bag".

JF.

[1911Tuner]

I will be curious at what design changes they have made to solve some of the problems discussed here.

My guess would be fillets in the sharp corners, and possibly a little thicker material to combat the stretch. Not enough to make the gun obviously heavier...but I'll bet that it you weigh an old Delta slide beside one of the reissuses, you'll find that it's gained an ounce or so.

A bull barrel wouldn't help, and could possibly make it worse. Remember that the slide will be pulling the barrel rearward. The heavier the barrel...the more stress it will incur in trying to accelerate the mass. The upper lugs need to be thicker, and...if possible...fitted for equal engagement horizontally.

[ljnowell]

My guess would be fillets in the sharp corners, and possibly a little thicker material to combat the stretch. Not enough to make the gun obviously heavier...but I'll bet that it you weigh an old Delta slide beside one of the reissuses, you'll find that it's gained an ounce or so.

A bull barrel wouldn't help, and could possibly make it worse. Remember that the slide will be pulling the barrel rearward. The heavier the barrel...the more stress it will incur in trying to accelerate the mass. The upper lugs need to be thicker, and...if possible...fitted for equal engagement horizontally.

Being an auto mechanic and former automotive machinist, I can tell you know what you speak of. Not many people understand the concept of fillets proper radius to improve the strength of an item. I can take a stock Chevy crank and make it way stronger than most stock ones with the proper radius at the journals and the proper fillet.