CCW in Bars?


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rainbowbob
April 18, 2008, 01:32 PM
Let me preface this by saying I don't go out to clubs much anymore, and don't spend much time in bars of any kind.

Recently, however, I went to a movie with a friend. My friend was in this movie and this was a special screening for the folks involved and their friends and families. It is not a terrible part of town, but it is a dense urban area with its share of street crime - much like any city these days. I was CCW, of course.

I had thought we would be leaving right after because he had to get up early the next day. After the movie, the party moved to the nearest bar, and he insisted we join them for a beer. That sounded good to me – but CCW is illegal in bars here. We were blocks from his car, and I had never discussed CCW with him. Asking for his keys so I could lock my gun in his car would have been VERY awkward. I also would not be at all comfortable locking my gun in someone else’s car, over which I have no control, in an urban neighborhood, and then walk blocks back to the bar unarmed.

So I just went in the bar and had a beer. I know that concealed means just that, and there was no problem whatever…other than the fact that I was breaking the law.

It seemed to me that my only choices were to break the law, spoil my friends good time and tell him I can’t go in - and why, or ask for his keys. None of the choices felt right.

Any suggestions or comments?

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Rugerlvr
April 18, 2008, 01:40 PM
In Utah it's highly illegal to be intoxicated while carrying. I would have teetotaled in that situation, but I don't think it's illegal to carry in a bar absent being intoxicated.

Feud
April 18, 2008, 01:42 PM
I don't frequent bars, so I'm not familiar with the atmosphere that is normally there. But, even if you keep your own drinking under control, it seems that there are other problems that could arise. For example, a fight starting between a friend of yours and someone else that you get pulled (literally or figuratively) into, police come and you get searched. Or, someone with a few too many stumbling into you and accidentally grabbing the gun, and the whole bar potentially being made aware of it's presence.

Personally, I think it would have been better had you explained the situation to them, and ask for a rain check. If he's a real friend then he might be disappointed, but he will care more about your best interest and be fine with it.

csmkersh
April 18, 2008, 01:44 PM
In Texas, that would be a crime. In Virginia, CCW would be a crime but open carry would not. Salud, Virginia.

exar
April 18, 2008, 01:46 PM
Any suggestions or comments?

Well, I think you know the answer's. You could vote to change your law's(HAHAHAHAHA:neener:). You could move to a state that is more in-line with your life prefrence's, like IN, where carry is allowed in bar's:D. Or, you could follow the easiest advice: CONCEALED MEANS CONCEALED!!!:evil:

Kitchen_Duty
April 18, 2008, 01:46 PM
I go to seattle often and I try not to carry in bars, the whole: "you cannot carry in a place that requires you to be 21" kinda thing. I guess you could avoid trouble by not drinking anything just in case. the cops come, you could say you were not drinking. The police can use their brains in areas like this I assume, so everything you can do right will help in the thing you are doing wrong. Better to say that you couldn't lock it up somewhere and you were not drinking than slurring words and stumbling out of your chair and dropping a 1911 on the ground.


You could also reference the shooting outside of a nightclub, I don't know which one or exactly when, a couple of weeks ago. I know it was in Seattle, that's all I know.

Rachen
April 18, 2008, 01:47 PM
I support CCW in any place, including bars.

HOWEVER, if you get into trouble that you started yourself because you were drunk, then you should be responsible. The right to carry also carries with it great responsibility. And alcohol or drunkenness is not an excuse for anything. Stupidity means you will face the LAW.

Other than that, CCW should be universal.

ArcherandShooter
April 18, 2008, 01:50 PM
Tough spot to be in.

I think I'd have taken door number 2 and neither gone in to the bar nor risked the trip to the car and back, let alone leaving my weapon out of my personal control blocks away in someone else's vehicle.

Whether to tell him why or not would depend on the depth of our friendship, whether or not I thought an explanation of my CCW and the limits it puts on me would cause more problem than a "little-white-social" untruth - something on the lines of "I have to get up early tomorrow - you go ahead and have a good time. I'll just catch a cab home".

Whatever I did, I would not risk my freedom and any future RKBA by violating CCW in a bar. I don't know about your state, but down here in TX that's a felony. :eek:

hso
April 18, 2008, 01:51 PM
TN doesn't allow you to carry, much less consume, where alcoholic beverages are consumed on the premises.

Indiana allows CCW holders to carry and consume alcoholic beverages in a bar/restaurant

As another member pointed out in the Activism thread on TN's attempt to get a restaurant carry bill passed, Indiana's firearms death rate is lower than Tennessee's and yet Indianans with a CCW don't seem to get into drunken movie gunfights.

Is it because they all just decide that they won't consume alcoholic beverages when they go to the bar or have dinner at the restaurant in spite of the fact that it is perfectly legal for them to do so or is it because they decide not to get intoxicated while carrying?

I've always been a staunch opponent of mixing alcohol with ammunition, but the relative gun crime rate and gun death/injury rate differences between my state and one that does allow folks with a CCW to drink makes me think about the issue more.

Firehand
April 18, 2008, 01:51 PM
Bar or restaurant that has a bar? Reason I ask, in OK you cannot carry in a bar, but you can carry in a restaurant that has a bar; you cannot sit at the bar while carrying.

Superlite27
April 18, 2008, 01:59 PM
In Missouri, the establishment's main source of revenue has to come from something other than alcohol. So, basically, no taverns. If the bar has a grill, the cook should be working his butt off!

If friends want to go grab a beer, I always suggest going to Applebees, Chili's, or somewhere where we can do so without breaking the law.

Remember, should you get busted, that one beer will be the most expensive one you will ever drink. No more carrying for you again.

I reccommend begging off if it is illegal in your state. The price is just too high.

JerryM
April 18, 2008, 02:03 PM
I am personally against CCW in bars. However, in NM it is a 4th degree felony to carry where alcohol is served. That would make it a no brainer for me.

In the case here I would have not gone with the party. I would not risk a felony whether it spoiled another's evening or not.

Best,
Jerry

Old Dog
April 18, 2008, 02:12 PM
in OK you cannot carry in a bar, but you can carry in a restaurant that has a bar; you cannot sit at the bar while carrying.
That is, in a nutshell, about the equivilent of the Washington statute (RCW 94.41.300).

Rainbowbob, many of us Evergreen Staters run into this dilemma regularly ... there are essentially two options as I see it: (1) Only go into a restaurant that serves, do not sit in the separated lounge area, enjoy your one or two beers; or, (2) Discreetly secure your weapon in the vehicle (no matter how distasteful the idea is to you) -- if I know in advance this is gonna be a possibility, I carry of handgun of lesser value (both monetary and sentimental) when I go out.

You can always tell your friend something such as, "Hey, can I have your car keys -- I wanna leave my [cell phone/sunglasses/jacket/cap, etc.) in the car." Or just be honest -- sometimes you'll be surprised, even if you've never discussed guns or CCW with that/those persons previously.

The penalty is (only) a gross misdemeanor -- but it's gonna result in a permanent loss of your Washington CPL. Consequences are simply too great, so my advice is don't risk it, no matter how well you think you're concealing or how infinitesmal the chances are of being caught packing in violation of the law.

Kind of Blued
April 18, 2008, 02:13 PM
In Colorado, it's pretty much just "don't be drunk while carrying". If you can't legally drive, you can't legally carry. That seems like a very fair law to me.

To the OP: That brings to mind the notion "What is more important? Your life or following the law." However, I feel that that rhetorical question only really applies in a world where carrying for self-defense is illegal outright and living a safe life can't be possible. I think you should have had more respect for the law than your friend's feelings and just done what (I think) you knew was right.

ctdonath
April 18, 2008, 02:15 PM
I have no problem with CCW in bars. You can choose to be responsible, or you can choose to be irresponsible - and that's your choice. Prohibiting because you might be stupid is stupid.

Depends entirely on your state - and the rules vary wildly.

For all the oppression in NY, carry while imbibing is perfectly legal (Rochester proper has a 0.01 BAC limit, though).

For all the freedom in GA, mere carry in a bar is illegal (even if unloaded, IIRC).

eric.cartman
April 18, 2008, 02:17 PM
In Florida, from: http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/Sec06.HTM

(12) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05; any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom; any polling place; any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any school administration building; any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any career center; any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile; inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. Any person who willfully violates any provision of this subsection commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

So at least it's not a felony in FL. But still, you may get your license suspended for a period of time; but you will be able to carry again some time in the future.

It is however LEGAL in FL to carry and be drunk. As long as the gun is not "readily accessible for immediate use == in ones hand".

JesseL
April 18, 2008, 02:24 PM
In Arizona carry in any establishment that serves alcohol for on premises consumption is illegal.

Thus the one place where I make doubly sure to be well concealed is in restaurants. I don't drink and I do my best to never be unarmed, so I take my chances. :uhoh:

The legislature has been working on getting restaurant carry legalized for years, but every time it gets through the state senate the governor vetos it.:banghead::fire:

Sniper X
April 18, 2008, 04:02 PM
I think under the circumstances no cop in his RIGHT mind would have hassled you for that situation. However, since you did have a drink, that could have made a difference, especially if you had been drinking a beer when caught CCW. If there was no way anyone could have known, seen it whatever, you were obviously fine. I have had to do the same thing, just would have walked away if they had been checking at the door like they do in "clubs" as opposed to a street bar.

rainbowbob
April 18, 2008, 04:23 PM
This was a pizza/bar where persons under 21 are prohibited. CCW in such an establishment is clearly prohibited in WA State.

I did not (and do not when CCW) drink to the point of intoxication. I also don't think drinking makes the average man into a homocidal maniac or even a brawler (at least it doesn't affect me that way).

The cost/benefit analysis goes like this:
The risk of being "made" and prosecuted for CCW in that situation is almost nil. So is the risk of being assualted on the street. Which is higher? Which occurence would present the most severe consequences? Losing my CPL would be unacceptable. So would losing my life.

I know that the legal course to follow is to leave the gun at home if there is any chance I will be entering a bar. But that leaves me unarmed at a time (night) and in a place (downtown) where I believe I am the most vulnerable. Lobbying to change the law - in light of the recent and frequent hip-hop bar shootings - is probably a non-starter.

Sniper X
April 18, 2008, 04:25 PM
Here in NM it is even considered a grey area, by some, to carry inot a package place, even if all they sell is Beer, like a convienence store! That my freinds is nuts.

romma
April 18, 2008, 04:34 PM
You can carry in bars in CT, but you best not be intoxicated...

Standing Wolf
April 18, 2008, 04:39 PM
In Colorado, it's pretty much just "don't be drunk while carrying". If you can't legally drive, you can't legally carry. That seems like a very fair law to me.

Not to quibble, but it's not a "pretty much" matter. It's legal to carry openly or concealed in Colorado bars and liquor stores, providing one's blood alcohol content remains below .08%. Open carry is illegal in Denver, the town that wants to be the San Francisco of the Rocky Mountains, and Telluride.

Biker
April 18, 2008, 04:42 PM
Burp.

Biker

rugerman07
April 18, 2008, 04:48 PM
I live in The Peoples Republic Of Illinois where concealed carry is illegal. But, if I lived in a state that had a concealed carry law, I would never, under any circumstances, carry a concealed weapon in a bar even if it was legal to do so. It's like the late, great, John Wayne said, in his classic movie, The Shootist, guns and hootch don't mix.

silverking
April 18, 2008, 04:57 PM
If it's illegal to ccw in a bar, I just won't do it. We all know that the laws vary by state. My story is just a bit different. Several months ago my favorite breakfast spot closed due to financial problems. It was a small diner and most of the customers were regulars. Even the deputy that ate there every morning knew i carried. (One of the waitresses "bumped into me accidentally and made the discovery) and the conversation went on from there.
After the closing, the bar owner down the street offered to open his place for breakfast if the girls from the diner would come to work there. They all reached their agreements and it was back to breakfast as usual for most of the regulars from the diner. But now we're in a bar environment and this guy knows the law. The weapon stays in the truck with BIG dog untill we leave. Even the deputy still has his breakfast there but he's in uniform and completly accessorized.

AKCOP
April 18, 2008, 05:02 PM
If the law is no CCW where you knowingly walked in and remained you broke the law, that was dumb. But if you friend is a real friend he would have bailed you out I'm sure. It always amazes me when people post and admit breaking the law and are looking for what?

rainbowbob
April 18, 2008, 05:04 PM
I would never, under any circumstances, carry a concealed weapon in a bar even if it was legal to do so.

That would imply that you don't trust yourself to remain sober and/or responsible in the presence of alcohol.

I would heartily endorse the colorado model wherein CCW is legal in a bar providing your blood alcohol does not exceed .08% - or whatever the DUI level is in a particular state.

It is fair and reasonable to assume that if you are competent to drive - you are competent to CCW.

M14/11B
April 18, 2008, 05:07 PM
Once again, make everything a crime so you're guilty of something no matter what. All they have to do is decide what grey area to pick.

W.E.G.
April 18, 2008, 05:08 PM
Show me ONE gun club that allows its members to drink any alcohol and then run around with loaded guns on the property.

You know, there really is a good reason for that.

Irrespective of any law books, drinking any alcohol whatsoever while in possession of a loaded firearm is always a big no-no.

Cut that out.

offshorebear
April 18, 2008, 05:13 PM
In PA we can OC or CC in a bar. No one has ever gotten drunk and shot up a bar with a legal concealed handgun. I'm glad that my state lets me choose to be responsible.

rainbowbob
April 18, 2008, 05:14 PM
It always amazes me when people post and admit breaking the law and are looking for what?

You are correct in stating that I have posted an admission of guilt. I am reasonably confident that this anonymous (and relatively innocuous) admission will not lead to prosecution.

What I am looking for is exactly what I am getting: An open discussion - including the advisability of "civil disobedience" versus disarming in this specific circumstance, and the various statutes that are in force in other states.

rainbowbob
April 18, 2008, 05:24 PM
...drinking any alcohol whatsoever while in possession of a loaded firearm is always a big no-no...

The law makes a distinction between driving while intoxicated and driving after having a drink (e.g., no DUI if BAL is less than .08%).

Why should firearms be treated differently? Both are obviously deadly weapons - and we all know there are far more accidents with cars than with guns.

fearless leader
April 18, 2008, 05:28 PM
In my State wide Firearms Licensure course in Florida, it was exlpained to me that you may go to the resturant part of an establishment, but not the bar portion.

Example, go to Red Lobster, you can sit in the restaurant area, but they have (here anyway) a specific bar portion, ideally aimed at those who just want to stop in for a drink.

It is illegal in the Gunshine state to be intoxicated in manual possession of a firearm, in a bar or anywhere else.

In trying to keep goodwill between the undecided people out there and those of us who choose to carry, it would be wise to stay in control of your faculties while carrying.

Every time a gun owner is found to be intoxicated, or in an actual shooting while intoxicated, ALL OF US ARE BEING JUDGED!!:uhoh:

Thek9
April 18, 2008, 05:34 PM
If your State Law dictates it's unlawful to CCW in a Bar then:

A) You must understand you may get arrested if caught, (Brushed by undercover, raid pat down or spotted.)

B) You may loose your weapon and your CCW.

C) Be the "Hero Of The Day" by stopping a Madman or Robber only to be arrested then latter sued.

Your choice to carry.

T-Out

doc2rn
April 18, 2008, 05:37 PM
I go proclaim myself DD, sit back and as Cosby once said "Have a Coke and a smile". I don't have to drink to have a good time, but I do like Quervo 1800.

rainbowbob
April 18, 2008, 05:47 PM
Every time a gun owner is found to be intoxicated, or in an actual shooting while intoxicated, ALL OF US ARE BEING JUDGED!!

I assumed in posting this thread that there was no question about the inadvisability of CCW while intoxicated - no more or less than driving while intoxicated.

There is absolutely no question in my mind about either.

My original concern has to do with going into a bar CCW for a beer or two over the course of an hour or so. That is NOT enough alcohol to cause me to be intoxicated or raise my BAL over the legal driving limitation (.08%).

SaxonPig
April 18, 2008, 05:58 PM
Here in AR you cannot go into a bar (restaurant that serves is OK as long as you don't drink) nor can you have ANY alcohol to drink while packing.

AR sort of sucks for CC because of all the many, many, many, many restricted locations.

Wetawd
April 18, 2008, 06:12 PM
sorry I didn't have the time to read every post but here in the evergreen state u are not allowed to carry where people under 21 are not permitted. Has to be all ages.

csmkersh
April 18, 2008, 06:37 PM
Back to Texas law.

Texas it's legal to carry in any business that sells alcohol for off premises consumption, including liquor stores. It is illegal to carry in any business that, "... derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption..."* It's an offense for a license holder to carry while intoxicared.**

*Texas PC §46.034(b)(1)
**Texas PC §46.035(d)

romma
April 18, 2008, 06:45 PM
Show me ONE gun club that allows its members to drink any alcohol and then run around with loaded guns on the property.



Not a gun club, but, there is a certain hunting ranch in South Texas I have been to (THAT SHALL NOT BE NAMED) where the guides will pack several beers in a cooler, and then drop you off in a blind anywhere from 2-4 hrs to hunt.

I don't drink anymore anyhow so I declined. I wouldn't have taken them even if I still drank... Of course I wouldn't have been hunting in Texas in the first place if I still drank, but that's another story!

rugerman07
April 18, 2008, 07:38 PM
That would imply that you don't trust yourself to remain sober and/or responsible in the presence of alcohol.

No, that was not my meaning. My meaning is plain and simple. Guns and alcohol don't mix. If your going out to a bar for a night of drinking and having a good time, leave your gun at home!

JesseL
April 18, 2008, 07:44 PM
But, if I lived in a state that had a concealed carry law, I would never, under any circumstances, carry a concealed weapon in a bar even if it was legal to do so.
My meaning is plain and simple. Guns and alcohol don't mix. If your going out to a bar for a night of drinking and having a good time, leave your gun at home!

So what if you're going out to a bar but not drinking? I don't drink, but I've spent my share of time in bars.

Seems like pretty reasonable circumstances to carry in a bar to me.

rugerman07
April 18, 2008, 08:02 PM
So what if you're going out to a bar but not drinking? I don't drink, but I've spent my share of time in bars.

Seems like pretty reasonable circumstances to carry in a bar to me. If you want to go to a bar packing heat, whether your drinking or not, that's your business. Personally, I wouldn't do it, but, that's just me.

AKCOP
April 18, 2008, 08:31 PM
Regardless of what we think the law should be if it is against the law to ccw in a bar we should not be breaking the law. When I talk to people who are against CCW I always state as one of justifications of allowing is that "law abiding" citizens should be allowed to carry. Then I read where my felow"law abiding" citizens and permit holders are not so "law abiding" and I wonder when that is going to bite us in the butt. If having a few drinks is OK when packing how would you feel about LEO's having a few drinks during meal breaks?

RPCVYemen
April 18, 2008, 08:42 PM
"civil disobedience"

Most people would not define "civil disobedience" as breaking the law discreetly, and hoping not to be caught. "Civil disobedience" is generally defined and openly and flagrantly breaking the law - and accepting the consequences - in an effort to make it clear the law is unjust and needs to be changed. I am not sure that drinking a beer or two while concealing a weapon counts. :)

Definitions aside, it might also be worth pondering the cost to your fellow CCW holders if you are caught. I make the argument, and I have heard other folks make the argument that CCW holder are by and large law abiding citizens, and meticulous about gun laws.

If you are caught breaking the law by carrying a gun in a bar, isn't that argument harder to make.

And if you were to use your gun in what would otherwise be a legitimate self-defense situation after leaving the bar, my guess is that your legal situation would be very complicated, "I didn't do nothing. He was drinking and came out of bar looking for a fight."

I don't have a recommendation - it's complicated. I do know that when I was a kid, and we were looking for a shooting range to join, my dad high tailed it out of nice local shooting club when we walked into a the clubhouse and there was a bar. He told me, "Guns an alcohol do not mix - not ever."

Mike

rainbowbob
April 18, 2008, 08:48 PM
When I talk to people who are against CCW I always state as one of justifications of allowing is that "law abiding" citizens should be allowed to carry....How would you feel about LEO's having a few drinks during meal breaks?

You make a good point about being "law-abiding" - and I use that same term as justifcation when talking to anti-CCW folks.

As for LEOs drinking on the job...or anyone else drinking while armed...It wouldn't bother me a bit if they had a beer for lunch but were not intoxicated. If they (or you or I) are not impaired - and not breaking the law - where is the harm?

Most people would not define "civil disobedience" as breaking the law discreetly, and hoping not to be caught....I am not sure that drinking a beer or two while concealing a weapon counts.

Awww...you got me there!

Cosmoline
April 18, 2008, 08:49 PM
What do you mean by "bar"? If you're talking restaurant that happens to be a brewpub, law aside I see no problems. If you're talking bar bar, a real bar, it's tactically foolish to ever set foot in one, and even more foolish to set foot in one unarmed. They are the number one breeding grounds for violent crime.

On top of which, real bars have real bouncers and observers. Real bars have two way mirrors. Real bars have trained people LOOKING for people who are packing, and if they find you it's a call to the cops. You'd have to be a complete igit to walk into that kind of trap.

If you were invited to go into a true bar, you should have simply declined the offer.

Biker
April 18, 2008, 08:57 PM
*Burp*.

Biker:)

AKCOP
April 18, 2008, 08:58 PM
As for LEOs drinking on the job...or anyone else drinking while armed...It wouldn't bother me a bit if they had a beer for lunch but were not intoxicated. If they (or you or I) are not impaired - and not breaking the law - where is the harm?

Cops drinking on duty? You are kidding right? Tell me you are kidding?
please tell me you are kidding?

Eyesac
April 18, 2008, 08:59 PM
Burp.

Biker

HAhahaha! +1

Look, it's against the law there, you knew it, you decided to break the law in the name of convenience. You got away with it, you're probably not going to be faced with that situation again for a long time. Don't sweat it. Or just move to Nevada :neener:

Huddog
April 18, 2008, 09:14 PM
Until recently GA law was no carry in an establishment that served alcohol. The legislature recently changed that but I don't know if it has been signed by the Gov. yet. I have yet to read the new law to see if "bars" are distinguished from restaurants with a bar area. I have to admit that there were times when we would go to a restaurant that had a bar area and i would maintain the concealed. My personal safety and that of my family are the most important things to me. I don't consume alcoholic beverages so for me that does not become a part of the equation. I have to agree with the earlier thread that I would have beggged off. Of course here in GA a movie might be considered a public gathering in some jurisdictions and you would have already violated the law.

rainbowbob
April 18, 2008, 09:24 PM
You got away with it, you're probably not going to be faced with that situation again for a long time.

Well...I won't be faced with that situation as long as I resign myself to leaving my gun at home if there is any chance I will be going to a bar - or never going to a bar again.

Eyesac
April 18, 2008, 10:20 PM
Well...I won't be faced with that situation as long as I resign myself to leaving my gun at home if there is any chance I will be going to a bar - or never going to a bar again.

ha! I have a 3mo old, and this pretty much sums it up for me:

Let me preface this by saying I don't go out to clubs much anymore, and don't spend much time in bars of any kind

crew590
April 18, 2008, 10:25 PM
Well, in WV it's not against the law to carry in bars (or anywhere else alcohol is served). The only laws are nowhere posted and if the owner asks you to leave (the usual things :)) That being said I'm not a drinker, but I do have friends that do go out.

Jay

W.E.G.
April 18, 2008, 10:33 PM
The law makes a distinction between driving while intoxicated and driving after having a drink (e.g., no DUI if BAL is less than .08%).

Why should firearms be treated differently? Both are obviously deadly weapons - and we all know there are far more accidents with cars than with guns.

For the same reason you don't want to be on the receiving end of a deposition when the issue is whether or not your actions were negligent. If you feel comfortable having a jury decide negligence, while knowing that you (the shooter) had alcohol in your system, feel free to ignore my comments.

As for the ranch serving hunters beer during a hunt, that sounds like a good way for the owner of the ranch to turn over the title to the ranch to any person who is injured on the ranch by a drunk with a gun.

rainbowbob
April 18, 2008, 10:53 PM
For the same reason you don't want to be on the receiving end of a deposition when the issue is whether or not your actions were negligent.

I am not clear how a BAL of say, .04% would impact the question of whether my actions were negligent? Isn't a negligent act equally negligent whether my BAL is .00%....04%...or .10%?

For that matter, I could be sitting at home with a BAL of .20% and a handgun in my pocket. As far as I know, I am not breaking any law in my state in so doing (although I agree it would be imprudent). If a tweaker invaded my home with a knife in his hand, I would be legally justified in shooting him. My BAL would have no material impact in judging whether or not I was negligent.

American_Pit_Bull
April 18, 2008, 10:53 PM
It is legal here and I have eaten many wings, while armed, in sports bars.

XLMiguel
April 18, 2008, 10:58 PM
The law in NM changed last July that allows you to carry in a place that sells alcohol (e.g. grocery. convenience store, etc) for off premise consumption, but not any place that serves alcohol for on premise consumption.

OTOH, (hypothetically speaking, of course) if I were CCW & out & about with a group of friends that stopped for a bite somewhere that served and there was no reasonable way to secure my weapon off premise, I'd probably just go along and stick to iced tea or soda and keep my mouth shut. I'd definitely avoid someplace that was an obvious high potential as a source of trouble (i.e. real bar, no food), but I probably wouldn't think too hard about Olive Garden, Appleby's, etc., during daylight hours.

Biker
April 18, 2008, 10:58 PM
Rainbowbob...

Be careful - you're talking common sense here.

Biker

sailortoo
April 19, 2008, 12:12 AM
XLMiguel raises a good point, just what Rainbow Bob ran into. You are dependent on another persons transportation, or even afoot, and CCW. Your group/partner go to a restaurant that serves alcohol, not planned ahead. You have no safe way to lock or otherwise secure your weapon. NOW what? Not impossible, but very awkward, especially if you are not known as a CCW person, and want to keep it that way, for any number of valid reasons. All the more reason for the persons in states that do not allow any reasonable carry in restaurants that serve alcohol, to get with their local representative and senator to try, try again, to get the laws more reasonable. I carry in Colorado and Washington in restaurants that serve, and am legal and responsible (I don't drink in a restaurant). In NM, I cannot do that, and I find that illogical. Anyway, political change is the ultimate answer, and that takes time and dedication.
sailor

Albatross
April 19, 2008, 02:02 AM
Concealed Carry in bars is legal in Oregon. I and many others do it all the time. Furthermore, we drink while we're there. Sure is weird that all the bars in Oregon haven't been shot to pieces by all of us out of control drunkards.

Growing up, we often mixed a bit of booze, .22's and a sunny afternoons. It was great.

I've also find it disconcerting the amount of law worship around here.

Remember illegal does not equal immoral or even wrong.

/I didn't know there were so many quakers in the gun culture.

gym
April 19, 2008, 10:51 AM
I never sit at the Bar, in restaurants. If a couple says we will meet you a few minutes earlier at the bar, I use my "back problem" as an excuse. If you are seated in the restaurant at a table having dinner, you should not have a problem carrying. May I go as far as to say, 1 drink, with dinner you should be ok. As a young man I sometimes would get stuck in that position, the choices are few, either leave the gun in the car, "in NY you take a chance of loosing your gun if left in the car", if somone steals it, it's a tough thing to explain, and in some states like NY, or CA, you may loose your license while they investigate. Or take the chance of going in and not drinking, if you are sober, you may get a pass, as long you are just sitting at a table or booth nursing a soda. Or go home

Intune
April 19, 2008, 12:49 PM
No one should not be allowed to carry in a bar. The only reason to go there is to drink & fight. Nevermind that I am there all night playing music & loading out tens of thousands of dollars in a dark alley @ 3 AM. At least I can get drunk & fight. I can't be trusted.

The local grocery store sells tons of beer. I can't carry there because I cannot resist the urge to pop a top & let loose a few rounds just to keep folks on their toes. I am not to be trusted.

My children hitchhike to doctor appointments during school hours. I should be able to sign them out and take them but I can't. I carry a gun. So many targets and they all need to be taught a lesson. I'll show them what school is really all about. Save the children, disarm me. A person with a gun & no badge cannot be trusted.

I think my children play sports. My wife takes them to this nice place that the city owns. Manicured green soccer fields, baseball diamonds, playground equipment and this sign right at the entrance that forbids my type from entering. I think it's because of the ducks & geese that hang out at this "park" place. Everybody knows that you have to shoot at birds even if you only have a pistol. After all, I have a gun & I'm gonna use it. Do not make the mistake of trusting me with it.

I have friends that live in Chicago. I've never seen their house because they drive down and meet me on the side of the road right across the state line. They do it to save the people of Illinois. There is something about that state that makes guns go off right when the line is crossed. We can't meet at a rest stop either because they have signs. And maps. My guns hate maps. Don't trust me. Put up a sign. You'll be safe. I promise...

I can't go to any hockey, football or baseball games. There are people there. They yell. I don't like it when people yell. Put up a sign. I'll honor it. Those noisy people have to come out sometime. I'm out there waiting. Don't trust me...


The only place I can legally carry is my home. But I had to take down all the mirrors. Seeing people with guns scares me. You know what I'll do if I get scared. I'm going to take my medicine now. Trust me...

The gun laws all make sense if you look at the purpose they serve & reason they exist. They are made to protect people from nuts like me. Be thankful & go about your business in peace & safety.


This :rolleyes: applies to all the above. Mostly. :evil:

tntwatt
April 19, 2008, 12:55 PM
Here in Georgia, the new law waiting for Gov. Perdue to sign will let CCW in bars as I've heard. Anyone feel free to correct me. But the new law also says you can't drink alcohol if you do carry into a bar.
Put in your situation, which I actually have been, I didn't drink any alcohol.

siglite
April 19, 2008, 01:22 PM
There's an awful lot of what the head-shrinkers call "projection" going on in this thread. Seems to be an awful lot of folks who apparently fear they'd be untrustworthy in the proximity of alcohol and a firearm. And since they fear they'd be untrustworthy, they're projecting that fear onto the rest of society by screaming for teetotalling while carrying.

Such screams say more about your own fears of being able to drink responsibly than they do anything else. It's a microcosm of the antis "shootouts over parking spaces" fears.

So for those of you who espouse this position, please do not drink in the proximity of large sticks. Please do not drink a beer while working on the garden, as your shovel likewise is a deadly weapon. You may go crazy and bludgeon people to death in a drunken rage. Please do not drink at baseball games. Someone may brush into you, and discover that you have one of those novelty wooden bats. Then you'll have to explain why you're carrying a deadly weapon in a ballpark. And someone might start a fight over something silly, like a bad call at first, and then you and your novelty bat might get drug into a deadly force encounter where you might be faced with the choice of whether or not to beat someone to death.

Likewise, please do not drink in any establishment, restaurant, or home with a pool table. Pool queues are deadly, and people who have been drinking are not to be trusted with deadly weapons and alcohol. Please remove all pool queues from the premises before opening a cold one.

Also, please avoid drinking alcohol at steak-houses. Steaks require large, sharp, and dangerous knives to eat. Alcohol and deadly weapons do not mix, per your own statements. We should not allow anyone who's intoxicated to be in possession of such a deadly implement. We don't want some slobbering fool to stab the waiter over a delusional drunken suspicion that he spit in the salad.

For those of you that espouse this "zero alcohol and guns" position, if you drink, I suggest you do it in the middle of a large desert (a sand dune desert, no large, and potentially deadly rocks may be present) mostly naked, with no potentially deadly implements within a ten hour walking distance.

Bobarino
April 19, 2008, 01:37 PM
Rob,

living in WA, i have found myself if the exact same spot as you a few times. if i had carried into a bar (and i'm not saying i have ;)) i would have sat someplace where there was no possibility of someone walking behind me and brushing up against my gun like in a booth or back against a wall, and limited my alcohol consumption to sipping down a beer every hour and a half or so. having my car stolen 3 different times taught me that locked in my car is not the safest place for the gun be. in my immediate control is best. its quite easy to exercise control with regards to alcohol. no alcohol while carrying is of course best but, having a beer or a glass of wine with dinner and friends is certainly nothing to get bent outta shape over unless you have the alcohol tolerance of a 102 lb college freshman.

either way, the laws in WA can put you in a tough spot sometimes. for those times, i just use my brains, and concealed means concealed.

Bobby

eric.cartman
April 19, 2008, 06:08 PM
biker: *&% BURP %&*
eric.cartman: *&% BURP %&*

Well snap. I'm 27. I drink. And I go to bars.
I often have a beer or whiskey at home, while a pistol sits in my pocket. Amazingly my wife, friends and neighbors are still alive.
It's too bad you can't *legally* CCW in a bar in FL... oh well ;)

tntwatt
April 20, 2008, 01:16 AM
siglite...
In Georgia if you get in an auto accident and have ANY alcohol in your system, they can charge you with DUI. What do you think would happen if you had alcohol in your system and had to shoot someone? It is common sense not to do anything dangerous while intoxicated. It has been proven in every way possible that alcohol dulls your senses, slows your reflexes, and impairs your judgement. One of the few ways to prove self defense is to prove you thought your life was in danger at the time you used deadly force. If you have been drinking, any 2bit lawyer on earth could convince the jury that your perceptions were flawed due to alcohol and it was an unjust killing vs self defense.

proud2deviate
April 20, 2008, 01:50 AM
Little things like this make me really appreciate that "shall not be a criminal offense," bit in Missouri's CCW laws. . .

The application process here sucks, (huzzah for non-resident licenses!) but they got most of the other stuff fairly right.

siglite
April 20, 2008, 02:00 AM
siglite...
In Georgia if you get in an auto accident and have ANY alcohol in your system, they can charge you with DUI. What do you think would happen if you had alcohol in your system and had to shoot someone? It is common sense not to do anything dangerous while intoxicated. It has been proven in every way possible that alcohol dulls your senses, slows your reflexes, and impairs your judgement. One of the few ways to prove self defense is to prove you thought your life was in danger at the time you used deadly force. If you have been drinking, any 2bit lawyer on earth could convince the jury that your perceptions were flawed due to alcohol and it was an unjust killing vs self defense.

Then you'd better never ever drink except in a bunker surrounded by heavily armed marines, deep in an underground vault. Because, if you happen to have alcohol in your system, and you're forced to defend yourself, some attorney somewhere will charge that you were intoxicated.

In fact, if you've had a drink, apparently the only sensible course of action is to allow any attacker to simply do as he pleases, as, you'll probably be charged if you attempt to defend yourself. If you've had a beer....

1. Do not drive a car.
2. Do not carry a gun.
3. Do not place yourself in close proximity to pool queues.
4. Refrain from eating steak, except with a very dull butter knife. Preferably, use a spoon. And please, stay out of the kitchen. There are entirely too many deadly weapons in there for you to be trusted in their proximity.
5. Avoid baseball parks that give away little wooden novelty bats.
6. Stay clear of trees, as they are chock full of potentially lethal clubs.

Valkman
April 20, 2008, 04:07 AM
Geez, just move to NV and don't worry about it. I guess all the "I'd NEVER carry in bars" worriers would feel the same about casinos? We pack in 'em all the time, and the only bloodletting is in Laughlin during the River Run. :)

jlbraun
April 20, 2008, 04:26 AM
I'm in CO too. Carry into bars all the time, sometimes have a solitary beer while doing so. I haven't shot any bars up yet, but will keep you all posted.

searcher451
April 20, 2008, 10:09 AM
Regardless of individual state laws, the simple fact of the matter is that alcohol and guns are often a deadly combination, even in the hands of otherwise responsible individuals. It's the equivalent of smoking while you pump gas: you might get away with it, but it's not too bright.

cassandrasdaddy
April 20, 2008, 10:25 AM
tough call for me i don't drink cause i drink way too much.

i have had in my life the sad experience of a number of my friends shooting one another. 3 so far. so far none of em were sober when it happened. it makes me chose to not be around random folks drinking and carrying.someone i know gets evaluated on a case by case basis.

Nate C.
April 20, 2008, 10:42 AM
"I've also find it disconcerting the amount of law worship around here.

Remember illegal does not equal immoral or even wrong."


The contrasting ambivalence towards the law is what I find disconcerting. If one disagrees with a law, one should work within the system to have the offending law revised or removed. Ignoring the law simply because one disagrees with it is the road to anarchy.

The law is meant to ensure public safety through conformity, bringing those on the fringes into compliance with the wishes of the majority, as can be found codified in law. Sure, everyone on this forum may well have all of the responsibility, self-restraint and good judgment required to successfully avoid mayhem if they went into a bar armed. The law is to prevent problems with those guys lacking in said good sense or self-restraint.

Using this logic, should we decriminalize murder as well? I mean, none of you guys would ever murder anybody, right?

siglite
April 20, 2008, 10:51 AM
The law is to prevent problems with those guys lacking in said good sense or self-restraint.

And as I've stated, we should clearly outlaw pool tables and steak knives in the same establishments, since the law is to prevent problems with restraint. But instead, we focus on the tool, instead of the criminal. "Guns r bad, mkay?" Never mind that enough lethal objects are present in any bar setting to kill a platoon of unarmed folks.

Biker
April 20, 2008, 11:08 AM
Just 'cause it's legal don't make it right, and just 'cause it's illegal, don't make it wrong.

Never did believe in mob rule.

Biker

siglite
April 20, 2008, 11:09 AM
Never did believe in mob rule.

I believe the phrase used by some fairly thoughtful folks was "the tyranny of the majority."

buck00
April 20, 2008, 11:58 AM
So I just went in the bar and had a beer. I know that concealed means just that, and there was no problem whatever…other than the fact that I was breaking the law.

If you had 10 beers in a row, yeah I'd say that is a problem. But I see no issue here.

On paper, there are restrictions about CCW. In the real world, you can CCW almost anywhere as long as you keep it concealed. Of course you get guys blurting out "but law XYZ says this!" And your point is?

I still have a fundamental issue with this- let's say we comply with the law 100 percent, but you end up being killed because you are unarmed. Do you go to your grave thinking "well at least I obeyed the law....."

Getting back to it, the biggest issue with a CCW in a bar is individual responsibility and the level of drinking. If you are irresponsible and drink a lot while CCWing, I think that is a problem. If you have to use your CCW in self-defense while intoxicated, yup you are going to have to face the music for it.


However, it could be the same in your own home. If have access to alcohol in your home- should they make a law banning guns in your house if you have alcohol there? Overall as a country, we need to move towards responsibility for our own actions rather than relying on (and assuming that) laws create responsibility.

cassandrasdaddy
April 20, 2008, 12:03 PM
responsibilty? for ones own actions?!
HERESY!

tntwatt
April 20, 2008, 02:38 PM
siglite,

I never said you can't have a beer just because you carry. Just like you can have a beer and get behind the wheel of a car.

Sarcasm aside, the belief that people will drink responsibly is flawed by one major example.

17,000 drunkdriving related deaths every year. That's just the fatalities, and does not include the actual number on non-fatal injuries.

I consider carrying a weapon a huge responsibility. Just like I don't want my LEO, doctor, nurse, truckdriver, pilot, dentist,teacher, or anyone else in a position of responsibility drinking alcohol.

I haven't been able to legally carry in bars or restaurants for 20 years. Now I might get the chance. If not drinking alcohol will allow me to do that then it is a small sacrifice. Alcohol doesn't mean that much to me.

For me it is just common sense. Alcohol and guns don't mix.

BRASSM
April 20, 2008, 03:05 PM
The only people that can get away with CCW in a bar are off-duty LEO's.

tntwatt
April 20, 2008, 03:08 PM
responsibilty? for ones own actions?!
HERESY!


+1 made me smile

Valkman
April 20, 2008, 03:11 PM
The only people that can get away with CCW in a bar are off-duty LEO's.

Sorry, some states like NV allow it for us "little people".

Sans Authoritas
April 20, 2008, 03:20 PM
Tntwatt,

Whether or not I agree with your idea of prior restraint, the question remains:

Are the people who go into bars to get hammered and cause trouble going to respect the law that says they can't have firearms in a bar? Just like they respect the one that says they can't assault someone in a bar with any weapon? Just like they respect the one that says they can't get drunk and drive?

Let the troublemakers carry firearms. They'll cancel each other out, while the rest of us peaceful people can be in peace, having the ability to defend ourselves if they start trouble with someone who was minding his own business.

-Sans Authoritas

tntwatt
April 20, 2008, 05:01 PM
Sans,
Let the troublemakers carry firearms. They'll cancel each other out

Do you want to be standing there when they do?

You're talking about close environments. Not just bars but also retaurants.

What happens when a CCW whose has one too many while he's having supper? Not drunk, just enough to screw with his aim. I for one don't want to be anywhere near him.

Search the net for yourself, read the studies on alcohol and relflex and motor control. I think you'll be amazed at how little alcohol it takes to affect your motor control. I'm not talking about the anti-alcohol sites. Their stats will be slanted against alcohol. I'm talking about the purely medical research type sites.

We all know how hard it can be to hit your target. Now add to that the stress of a self defense senario and the decreased motor control the fight or flight response causes. Then add alcohol.

This isn't about the right to carry. I am so pro-carry that it drives my wife nuts. This is about the responsibilty we have to carry safely and if necessary to hit the target and not the innocents.

By the way, I do drink on occasion. I just make sure it's in the safest environment possible. Bars and restaurants are not safe environments and should always carry a yellow level. You can't be alert if your senses are dulled.

tntwatt
April 20, 2008, 05:30 PM
Valkman,
even in NV it is illegal to be under the influence of alcohol while in posession of a firearm. The statutes define under the influence as an alcohol level of 0.10 or "to a degree which renders him incapable of safely exercising actual physical control of a firearm."

here's the link: http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-202.html#NRS202Sec257

This is basically the same as NV law for driving. It all boils down to can you prove you are sober enough.

Albatross
April 21, 2008, 07:43 PM
A few of my buds read this thread and they brought it up in conversation Saturday afternoon right before we were headed out for the evening.

Everyone was feeling pretty sorry for all you fellows who can't or won't carry in bars so we decided to "pour one for the homies" so to speak and drink a few for all of those who can't.

We musta hit half the bars in town and then finished the evening off at a seedy strip club, everyone with a concealed handgun.

I don't have much recollection regarding my buddies conditions but I certainly got absolutely smashed. Weirdly, my 1911 still didn't hop out of it's holster and blow anyone away.

Valkman
April 21, 2008, 09:09 PM
Valkman,
even in NV it is illegal to be under the influence of alcohol while in posession of a firearm. The statutes define under the influence as an alcohol level of 0.10 or "to a degree which renders him incapable of safely exercising actual physical control of a firearm."


We weren't talking about that - of course CCW while intoxicated is illegal. I said CCW in bars and casinos is perfectly legal and I have done it many, many times. I don't drink anyway so being intoxicated isn't going to be a problem. The problem is idiotic laws banning CCW holders from places like these.

siglite
April 21, 2008, 09:25 PM
I don't have much recollection regarding my buddies conditions but I certainly got absolutely smashed. Weirdly, my 1911 still didn't hop out of it's holster and blow anyone away.

I want to go on record saying that I do NOT advocate that. ^^

janobles14
April 22, 2008, 02:13 AM
let me go on record as saying that there really arent too many situations AT ALL that i would say someone should not be able to ccw. this though is one. so before anyone destroys me let me just say that i am all about the drinks and the weps.

in a nutshell....

im sure that all of us here are capable of inbibing (drinking adult bevs for those of us in AL :neener:) without pulling our weapon and putting 3 in the first a-hole that mouths off. however...there are those who have passed whatever prereq's that your state requires and will feel the need to at least brandish their piece. this hurts the rest of us who never would.

bottom line without arguing for 3 pages...although it may suck...if you cant carry and want to...dont go!

p.s. , caveat, adendum:

better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. ("cough cough" but with a serious tone :) )

ShooterMcGavin
April 22, 2008, 03:53 AM
The following situations, suggestions, and ideas are all completely hypothetical and probably never happened....

I find the WA law regarding CCW in bars to be very irritating. I have posted about it before. I would never break any law so, of course, I do not carry in any bar.

In addition to the usual fallacies regarding weapons restrictions (i.e. only the law abiding will be disarmed), there are other problems with the restriction of firearms in bars.
1. Outlawing CCW increases the chances of firearm theft in some circumstances. I ride a motorcycle with almost no storage on it. There is no secure way to lock my gun in my bike when a group of friends decides (without any forewarning) to have lunch at a "bar". I can leave my gun "locked" in my bike, and very vulnerable to theft, or I can leave. I often tend to leave the group at bars in a very awkward manner, since I rarely know every person in the group well enough to tell them about carrying.
BTW, I do not drink, EVEN ONE DRINK, EVER, while I am riding the motorcycle! Yet, I am still prohibitted from carrying when my friends have chosen a bar or casino for lunch.
2. If anyone were ever to illegally carry a gun into a bar, they may be more likely to drink more. That's right. If you are illegal anyway, why not have 3 or 4 beers? I am not saying that this is right or prudent. If the law gave a minimum BAC, even if it were 0.00%, I would abide by it and be happy. As it is now, I abide by it and I am not happy :(

Be safe, rainbowbob.

rainbowbob
April 22, 2008, 04:17 AM
Thanks, ShooterMcGavin - and all those that have provided some insight here.

tntwatt
April 22, 2008, 04:33 AM
Sorry if I offended or pushed any buttons in this thread. Got run over by a drunk in '04 and spent 18 months in a wheelchair. The subject of alcohol tends to get me on my sanctimonious soap box.

Intune
April 22, 2008, 08:02 AM
Naw, don't worry about it. That situation would tend to make anybody a bit hypersensitive. Hope you mended up O.K.

This thread is all over the place because of the wildly differing opinions. The OP might want to turn it into a poll. ;)

Opinions range from:
A. Do not even walk past a bar whilst carrying, the fumes alone will make one draw.

To:

B. I got so toasted last night that I don't even remember going to the last three bars! My gun is missing but that's happened before. It'll turn up. The guys told me it was pretty funny watching me drive them home. :(

Surely, (quit calling me Shirley!) there is a common middle ground that we, as gunnies, can agree to. How the heck are we even going to broach the subject with an uninformed/anti if we can't even find a consensus amongst ourselves?

Such as:

C. Concealed carry allowed in bars, BAC of no more than 1/2 of your state driving allowance. Would this pass scrutiny?

RPCVYemen
April 22, 2008, 08:23 AM
I don't have much recollection regarding my buddies conditions but I certainly got absolutely smashed.

I am thinking that this behavior is precisely why they have "no CCW in bars" law.

Mike

MillCreek
April 22, 2008, 09:10 AM
My opinion on the matter is the same as Old Dog. As a life-long Washington resident, I just don't carry into bars since the legal consequences are too severe. I lock it in my vehicle, or if I don't have that option, I don't go into that bar.

The other week, my wife and I were up in the Lynden area, and we did not cross over into Canada since I had a handgun in the vehicle or on my person. Now the chances of a middle-aged couple driving a nice car being searched at the border is probably pretty darn low, but suffice it to say that there would have been significant legal problems had I carried up into Canada and been discovered. Heck, I was careful to stay on the American side of the Peace Arch park in Blaine.

I can say concealed means concealed all I want to, but when I go to the courthouse on business and have to pass the metal detector, concealed doesn't cut it. If I am going to a concert and they are wanding people at the door, concealed doesn't cut it. Losing my Washington and Utah CPL just isn't worth it, and there are many situations in which I cannot carry at all times. I have learned to live with it.

Pilot
April 22, 2008, 09:19 AM
No one should not be allowed to carry in a bar. The only reason to go there is to drink & fight. Nevermind that I am there all night playing music & loading out tens of thousands of dollars in a dark alley @ 3 AM. At least I can get drunk & fight. I can't be trusted.

Well maybe you go into just drink and fight, but many of us go with our spouses or girlfriends (not at the same time) to have a drink and get something to eat. I have never been in a bar fight and if someone got obnoxious with me, I'd just leave. That being said, I don't carry in any establishment that serves alcohol because its against the law.

WayneConrad
April 22, 2008, 09:21 AM
Nevermind. Said better above.

Intune
April 22, 2008, 10:24 AM
Quote:
No one should not be allowed to carry in a bar. The only reason to go there is to drink & fight. Nevermind that I am there all night playing music & loading out tens of thousands of dollars in a dark alley @ 3 AM. At least I can get drunk & fight. I can't be trusted.

Well maybe you go into just drink and fight, but many of us go with our spouses or girldfriends (not at the same time) to have a drink and get something to eat. I have never been in a bar fight and if someone got obnoxious with me, I'd just leave. That being said, I don't carry in any establishment that serves alcohol because its against the law.

Taken out of context, the rest of my post must have freaked you out. Schools, parks, etc. I'm a bad man.
Please take note of the following at the end of my original post.
This :rolleyes: applies to all the above.

Sarcasm does not seem to convey well within text.


I am a professional musician. I do not drink when I am working. In fact, other than a glass or two of a nice cab with a med rare steak, I hardly drink at all. Getting drunk loses its charm once you’ve done it enough. :cool:

The consensus seems to be that bars are dangerous places where drunken people congregate. Yet it appears that only a minority of people believe that a 100% sober person there for whatever reason they choose, (designated driver, work, music, fun & games, etc,) should have the ability to CCW. Hmm…

The two paragraphs above a certified sarcasm-free. Well, the “Hmm…” may be pushing the dreaded envelope.

Kentak
April 22, 2008, 11:01 AM
I think under the circumstances no cop in his RIGHT mind would have hassled you for that situation.

Oh, I seriously doubt that. A cop who catches a glimpse of a gun or a fairly obvious print in a bar where it is strictly prohibited by law is not going to assume you are a law-abiding CCW permit holder. After all, a law-abiding permit holder wouldn't break the law by carrying in a bar. Hence, the cop would likely assume you are some kind of gangster or other criminal and confront you about the gun. Even after running your ID to show no warrants or criminal history, the cop probably will feel it's a violation he can't ignore. Good-bye CCW permit.

K

rainbowbob
April 22, 2008, 12:38 PM
I don't have much recollection regarding my buddies conditions but I certainly got absolutely smashed. Weirdly, my 1911 still didn't hop out of it's holster and blow anyone away.

Are you sure? Did you check the magazine? It sounds like you wouldn't have remembered if you DID fire it. :rolleyes:

...there are many situations in which I cannot carry at all times. I have learned to live with it...

It is unfortunate that this is true. But learning to live with it may be the most sensible comment here. Many have weighed in with similar advice. Losing the CPL for ANY reason would be unacceptable.

This thread is all over the place because of the wildly differing opinions. The OP might want to turn it into a poll.

That's not a bad idea. Can you add a poll to a thread - or do you need to start a new thread?

Mr. Designer
April 22, 2008, 12:43 PM
I support conceal carry ANYWHERE. I don't recall the second amendment saying you have the right to bare arms unless consuming alcohol. In PA there are no laws prohibiting carrying into bars. However, I'm moving to SC and there is. Stupid law in my opinion.

rainbowbob
April 22, 2008, 12:47 PM
I don't recall the second amendment saying you have the right to bare arms unless consuming alcohol.

My understanding is that nearly everyone drank all day back then - starting with large quantitites of beer for breakfast!

Biker
April 22, 2008, 01:12 PM
Beer...it's not just for breakfast anymore.

Biker

Intune
April 22, 2008, 01:58 PM
That's not a bad idea. Can you add a poll to a thread - or do you need to start a new thread?
I've never tried. Hey, I'm just the idea guy here, O.K.? Dang, get the nuts & bolts folks working on it. Sheesh, do I have to do everything? Just who do you think you are, Mr. Big Stuff? :fire:




Good thing we're not in a bar carrying... That was close. I almost lost it.

:evil:

:D

Mr. Designer
April 22, 2008, 03:00 PM
I don't recall the second amendment saying you have the right to bare arms unless consuming alcohol.
My understanding is that nearly everyone drank all day back then - starting with large quantitites of beer for breakfast!I believe you're right. I don't like ANY limitations put on my freedoms. Us excepting limitations on our God given rights just embolden Government to push for more and more restrictions. This may seem extreme to some but I think Barry Goldwater said it perfectly: "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

ctdonath
April 22, 2008, 06:33 PM
In Georgia if you get in an auto accident and have ANY alcohol in your system, they can charge you with DUI. What do you think would happen if you had alcohol in your system and had to shoot someone?
(...and many other similar posts.)

Guys, if you pull the trigger on someone, you're doing so because you believe you will die if you don't.

With that in context, the whole discussion kinda becomes moot.

Old Dog
April 22, 2008, 06:53 PM
Laws prohibiting carry of firearms in saloons are nothing new.
My understanding is that nearly everyone drank all day back then - starting with large quantitites of beer for breakfast!Apparently, some need to brush up on their history ... Many towns in the Old West quickly realized the need to pass ordinances prohibiting the carry of firearms in the city limits and many required handguns be turned into the local sheriff's/marshal's office prior to embarking on a long night of reveling ... just too many cowboys and buffalo hunters losing their inhibitions while packin' their six-shooters ...

Originally Posted by Mr. Designer
I don't recall the second amendment saying you have the right to bare arms unless consuming alcohol. I prefer short sleeves while drinking, especially since the bar gets a little wet after the drunks start sloshing their beers around ...

Intune
April 22, 2008, 11:03 PM
Many towns in the Old West quickly realized the need to pass ordinances prohibiting the carry of firearms in the city limits and many required handguns be turned into the local sheriff's/marshal's office prior to embarking on a long night of reveling
"...realized the need..." Please. And the infringement began. Less than 100 years old. Add another 100+ & look where we are now. Baa.

Does anyone for one moment believe that it was the miners & cowpokes who came up with the ordinance to disarm citizens? Is there any chance whatsoever that it was the slick mayor or the plump banker from back East? Hmm? "Daggnabit, Sheriff, if you don't do something about those cowpokes blastin' up my saloon I'm callin' in that note on yer spread. That last shot broke a glass not twenty feet from me. It's scaring people, I'm tellin' ya & it's bad fer business! Don't forget who pays yer salary"

I would concede "some" towns & cities. I think it is a stretch to say many, especially West of the Miss. But I'm all for a clarification. ;)

rainbowbob
April 23, 2008, 02:53 AM
Apparently, some need to brush up on their history ...


Will this do for starters?


As an example of Party Time During the Colonial Period. The year was 1787. The banquet was in honor of General George Washington. The place was Philadelphia's City Tavern. It was a wild party -- political types and men dressed in wigs. In total, 55 revelers were there, down on Second Street. And this is what they drank: Fifty-four bottles of Madeira; 60 bottles of claret; 8 bottles of old stock; 22 bottles of porter; 8 bottles of hard cider; 12 bottles of beer; and 7 large bowls of punch.

How else did you think America's founding fathers kept warm during the terrible winters of the 18th century? In the early days of America, alcoholic beverages were seen as more healthful than water. They warmed a person on cold nights and kept off chills and fevers. Indeed, the colonists consumed more alcohol than modern Americans.

Most alcohol was consumed in the form of beer, rum and cider. Wine had to be imported and was a rare commodity. During the period of colonial rule, European wines were so heavily taxed that the price was prohibitive. Only the wines of Madeira, from the Portuguese island off the African coast, were exempt from the British tax, making them a favorite among the revolutionaries.

Despite the price, many of the founding fathers had a special fondness for wine. Benjamin Franklin wrote that wine was ``constant proof that God loves us, and loves to see us happy.'' George Washington adored Champagne. One colonist for whom wine was a particularly serious passion -- indeed he called it ``a necessity of life'' -- was , again, Thomas Jefferson, statesman, diplomat and third president of the United States. He was also one of the most experienced and knowledgeable wine connoisseurs of his age. Within two weeks of arriving in Paris as the ambassador to France in 1784, he had purchased 276 bottles of wine, primarily Bordeaux vintages.


And this...

Early Americans really did not care what anybody thought about their love of alcohol. As a Georgian wrote: "If I take a settler after my coffee, a cooler at nine, a bracer at ten, a whetter at eleven and two or three stiffners during the forenoon, who has any right to complain?"

In 1790, United States government figures showed that annual per-capita alcohol consumption for everybody over fifteen amounted to thirty-four gallons of beer and cider, five gallons of distilled spirits, and one gallon of wine.

Americans thought alcohol was healthful. To their minds, drink kept people warm, aided digestion, and increased strength. Not only did alcohol prevent health problems, but it could cure or at least mitigate them. They took whiskey for colic and laryngitis. Hot brandy punch addressed cholera. Rum-soaked cherries helped with a cold. Pregnant women and women in labor received a shot to ease their discomfort.

Water, on the other hand, could make you sick.

Essex County
April 23, 2008, 02:05 PM
I seldom go to bars, but I can polish off a few Martinis and dont turn into a Jerk. Again, it's back to personable responsible responsibility...Essex

MillCreek
April 23, 2008, 03:03 PM
Not to be too far off topic, but as a long-time homebrewer who has read up on the history, I can attest to the popularity of beer in the Middle Ages and beyond. The typical beer brewed then had a low alcohol content, and was seen as safer and better to drink than water. They had a point, since the boiling of the beer during brewing made it far more sanitary than the typical water supply of the time.

springmom
April 23, 2008, 05:01 PM
They took whiskey for colic and laryngitis. Hot brandy punch addressed cholera. Rum-soaked cherries helped with a cold.

WOO HOO!!!!!!! I not only have a cold, but my voice is getting hoarse! Party time tonight!!!!! :evil::evil::evil:

And let us not forget St. Paul's admonition to Timothy to "take a little wine for your stomach, since you are sick so often."

I'll drink to that.

Springmom

stevereno1
April 23, 2008, 05:12 PM
We're trying to get the law straightened out here in Georgia. hb-89 states that concealed carry would be allowed in establishments that get 50% of their income from food (think Applebees), providing that said permit holder abstains from drinking alcohol. We're just waiting on sonny perdue to sign it.

stevereno1
April 23, 2008, 05:14 PM
I like beer. Beer good!

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