Kahr PM9 Break in issue


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WinkingTiger
April 18, 2008, 02:55 PM
I'm having an issue with my NIB Kahr PM9 during the break in period. I have about 150rounds through it and it has a problem extracting unfired rounds.

I'm using WWB. When I manually rack the slide to extract unfired rounds, the first round doesn't extract. Even if I pull the slide back has hard as possible (and violently work the slide) I can't get the extractor to send the round out of the gun. (The brass of the unfired round gets scratched up real good.)

I really freaked out the first time it happened because even after pulling the mag out I could not get the unfired round to extract. The way I get it out is to push my index finger on the round (or a pen/stick) and send the unfired round out the bottom where the mag used to be. This is a real PITA as the slide closes real fast as soon as I unjam the round. I make sure to hold the slide open with the other hand otherwise my finger/pen/stick gets hit by the slide.

I've tried manually cycling with JHP and they manually cycle fine.

While I was actually firing the gun performed fairly well with a few jams due to failure to extract.

Since I am almost out of the 200 round break-in period I wanted an opinion on what to do if the problems don't correct themselves.

1. Clean gun and send another 200 down range
2. Contact Kahr and try to send it back to the factory
3. Bring it to a gunsmith that can do a fluff and buff on some of the internal parts
4. Dump the Kahr, get bigger pockets, and get a Glock 26

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gilfo
April 18, 2008, 03:25 PM
I would call Kahr. Expect to pay to send it back to them. I hate to down grade the gun. But I had one sent it back to Kahr for repairs and got it back still troublesome. I sold it and bought a CZ Rami Poly and have fired about 500trouble free rounds. It is a little bigger and about 10oz heavier but the piece of mind for ccw is well worth it. You will hear many stories of how great a piece the PM9 is but it did not work out for me. Maybe you will have better luck than I did.

Larryect
April 18, 2008, 03:33 PM
I have never had this type of issue with my PM9. I would recommend calling Kahr.

The Bushmaster
April 18, 2008, 03:59 PM
Take it back to the gun shop where you bought it and raise hell. It should be under warrenty and if the shop is reputible they will make it good...

Muddflap
April 18, 2008, 04:01 PM
The way I get it out is to push my index finger on the round (or a pen/stick) and send the unfired round out the bottom where the mag used to be. This is a real PITA as the slide closes real fast as soon as I unjam the round. I make sure to hold the slide open with the other hand otherwise my finger/pen/stick gets hit by the slide.


Are you saying the empty is coming out of the chamber, but not getting ejected, or is the empty staying in the chamber, and not being extracted?
You do realize that it has a slide lock right? There is no reason to try and hold the slide back.

I agree, you need to call Kahr.

RNB65
April 18, 2008, 04:37 PM
You, my friend, are going to be joining the Kahr parade -- the parade of folks driving to their nearest UPS/FedEx depot to return their NIB Kahr poly gun to Kahr because it doesn't work. Sadly, there are many of us. :fire:
-

DAdams
April 18, 2008, 04:55 PM
Contrary to some statements. Typically you may have to pay the shipping to NY, but I know people who got the shipping covererd both ways. Tell them that S&W pays both ways. :D

Remember you will get more bees with honey.....

I sent mine back, had it returned to me in less than 10 days, and it has been fine ever since.

If it had to go back again it was going on the block, but so far, so good.

Cowboy2
April 18, 2008, 06:00 PM
If I'm reading it right, the gun will extract UNFIRED fmj rounds from the chamber, but does not eject them cleanly. No problem with hollow points, though. And no jams while firing. Is that right?

The Lone Haranguer
April 18, 2008, 06:03 PM
I've never had this problem with mine - ejected rounds go spinning and flying - but it sure sounds like an extractor problem. Take the slide off and see if the hook/claw (which should be sharp and square) is broken or burred. Or a weak spring may not be pushing the claw into the case groove sufficiently. Also check for debris between the claw and breech face.

Yes, they do tell you to break it in, but IMO any consistently occurring, major malfunctions like this are unacceptable, regardless of how many/few rounds through it.

dfariswheel
April 18, 2008, 08:17 PM
A good many of these micro and mini autos have problems ejecting UNFIRED rounds.

The problem is, these guns are right on the edge of what's possible with a full power cartridge, and there simply isn't much room to allow ejection of some loaded rounds.
Longer bullet rounds, or some more "square tip" hollow point rounds hang up on the front edge of the necessarily small ejection port.

As example, the Colt Officer's ACP had a circular cut in the lower front of the ejection port, because the gun simply couldn't clear loaded rounds without it.
On these super tiny autos, you simply can't make the ejection port as large as often needed with some ammo without compromising the structure and strength of the slide.
Another popular gun that often has live round ejection problems is the .380 Walther PPK.

I doubt this is anything serious, and Kahr probably will radius the sharp inside edge of the slide's ejection port.

Your first step is to try a different brand/type of ammo.
Not all guns "like" all ammo, and it's for this reason you shoot a gun enough to insure it's fully reliable with the ammo selected.
If it isn't, try something else.
Ejection of live ammo is part of verifying reliable operation.
This is no different than discovering a specific ammo fails to feed properly, and the "cure" is usually no more complicated than different ammo.

The Lone Haranguer
April 18, 2008, 10:26 PM
The ejection port on this gun is relieved at the front, with a large radiused cutout extending over a quarter inch past the barrel locking shoulder. It should - and does - have no trouble ejecting a loaded round, let alone extracting a fired case and flinging it clear.

IMO (again) the break-in period is to deal with sporadic and minor (easily clearable) malfunctions like failure to fully eject or go into battery, not complete failures to extract as the OP is describing.

gym
April 19, 2008, 11:19 AM
I hesitate to say certain things that I know will set off a barrage of inflamatory responses, but I bought a Kahr, when they first got popular, about 10 years ago, prior or just about when the first 40 caliber came out. I believe the p9, in 9mm of course. I loved the weight and feel of the gun. It was smaller than my glocks, and a great size and shape to wear in an inside the belt, type holster. I ended up selling it because it constsntlly stovepiped. I have had at least 25-30, auto pistols, so I know it wasn't limp wristing or anything I was doing, after returning the gun and having it happen a couple more times at the range, I had to pass on kahr. I found that if I even have to think that my weapon may not work properlly,every time, that it's just not worth having that weapon. I am not speaking about the break in period. That has happemed on only two auto pistoles, and once it happened one time, it happened again. I just saw Dfaris'es post, that was the other gun, the ppk's, very interesting, that those were the same two pistols.

FredZiffle
April 19, 2008, 01:45 PM
Pm9 owner here...no problems at all...call or email Kahr...they respond quickly ...
I sent my Kahr in for night sight installation with the barrel and they polished the ramp free...

fred

I did pay shipping...

9mmepiphany
April 19, 2008, 07:47 PM
Are you saying the empty is coming out of the chamber, but not getting ejected, or is the empty staying in the chamber, and not being extracted?
You do realize that it has a slide lock right? There is no reason to try and hold the slide back.

i'm waiting for an answer to this one too.

at first i thought "ejector problem" but then the implication is that it was extracting, but not ejecting

dfariswheel
April 19, 2008, 08:36 PM
The Original poster said:

"When I manually rack the slide to extract unfired rounds, the first round doesn't extract. Even if I pull the slide back has hard as possible (and violently work the slide) I can't get the extractor to send the round out of the gun".

Key words are "Unfired round" and "send the round out of the gun".

This is usually a failure of the gun to EJECT an UNFIRED round, not EXTRACT it.
This is often a case of that specific gun having problems ejecting some loaded rounds due to bullet shape or overall cartridge length.

While that model of Kahr may be relieved on the front of the ejection port, some guns STILL have the problem.
This could be a cartridge problem or a gun problem.

Waiting for the OP to clarify as to how the gun SHOOTS, and whether he's tried different ammo.

9mmepiphany
April 20, 2008, 12:34 AM
you're right...i was just confused by the OP's misuse of the word extract rather than eject

Control
April 20, 2008, 04:43 AM
I have had 4 Kahr PM9s in my time. Kahr was difficult to get a hold of and I spent a fortune in shipping and time trying to get the darn things to run. Kahr tried to fixed them, replaced them entirely, sent parts, etc.

Bunny (Kahr rep) did try very hard when I could get her on the phone.

Failures to extract. Failures to go into battery. Frames that chip away...

My last PM9 which was another full replacement from Kahr was sold back to my dealer unfired at a loss.

If I could actually find this perfect Kahr PM9 that others seem to have I would own one. I was not that lucky. Get Kahr to refund you or send you a full new replacement. Then either take the money or sell the replacement unfired back to your dealer and get a Glock 26 or snubby revolver. They work.

WinkingTiger
April 23, 2008, 10:22 PM
I've been away from the PC for a few days.

The first pic shows the unfired catridge not being ejected (extracted) when pulling the slide back.

The second pic shows the slide completely locked up during this condition.
The jammed round holds the slide open.

I cannot use the slide stop lever the hold the slide open as the slide is completely jammed up. (picture 2)

The only think I can do it push hard with a finger or hard object and watch the slide slam shut on it.
Picture 3 shows the slide held open normally with the slide stop lever.

I'm headed to the range sometime next week so I will let you know if the condition gets better after I fire another 100.

If I still have problems I'll give Kahr a call.

When I went to purchase this gun I kept telling myself "It'll be fine, lots of people got good ones straight from the factory" and "they fixed all the bugs".

BTW, how do you quote people to properly reply to questions?

WinkingTiger
April 23, 2008, 10:26 PM
I appreciate everyone comments. I'll go to the range sometime next week.

I'll try different ammo as well.

9mmepiphany
April 24, 2008, 04:47 AM
in your first picture the round is extracted, it just isn't being ejected.

is the rim of the case being held by the extractor hook?

chuwee81
April 24, 2008, 12:45 PM
i dunno if this would help but i've been shooting my 10/22 (rifle) and installed a target barrel - it came with a warning "live rounds may not be extracted" due to tight tolerances. BUt it will eject ANY round while firing. Seems like your gun is new, i'd suggest shooting it more like you said (200 more rds) and see if you could do it manually. If not send the gun in.

9mmepiphany
April 24, 2008, 05:42 PM
the warning on the target barrel for the 10/22 has to do with it's target chamber.

the tighter cut chamber actually "grabs" the bullet when it's chambered

rlgreen
May 5, 2008, 07:19 PM
vsix:

i bought my pm45 on saturday morning 5/2. i had this isssue new out of box and still after 100 rounds of wwb 230fmj and jhp on saturday afternoon. for me, it was happening on both fmj and jhp.

on sunday i then shot another 200 rounds in a combination of wwb, federal premium 165 grain low recoil, and some junky blazer 230 grain i got cheap at walmart. problem disappeared right around round 208.

i'm attributing the issue to the unusual way Kahr barrels slide back/forth and up down, together with the insanely tight tolerances on the gun out of the box. right as a round is chambered, the barrel actually moves up and forward to be re-locked into the frame (that's why the barrel looks canted if viewed from the side with the slide to the rear). when the gun was brand new, the nose of the round (the rim for my jhp's) coming out of the mag was, i believe, catching on the upward moving barrel...which is why we couldn't get the slide back any further. the space in the chamber had literally changed (that is, momentarily shrunk).

anyway, once the thing shot thru its warm up (even my kimber gold match took the recommended 400 rounds to really operate smoothly) it was fine both at the range and hand cycling all sorts of ammo and snap caps.

i'd be interested in an update on what you did and how its going.

rlgreen
May 5, 2008, 07:33 PM
actually, i've thought about this some more and think i have it backwards, its not the barrel coming forward we're catching on, its the barrel coming back. the barrel moves back and down as the slide goes back. that's were the chamber shrinks, which is ok if the round has been fired and the only thing that needs to clear is case, but when we hand cycle, we're trying to put a projectile and a case in the same space engineered for only a case....anyway, if my experience wasn't a fluke. keep shooting it and it'll be fine.

420Stainless
May 5, 2008, 09:11 PM
I must be missing something. I've never expected a pistol to fling a cartridge clear of the weapon. Usually when I unload, I remove the magazine and then roll the pistol over so that the ejection port is facing down. Then pull the slide and hold it back until the round falls out the port or down through the grip.

I always assumed there was never intended to be enough force to fling the cartridge with the weight of the bullet still present. Only the empty brass.

Should a pistol be expected to cleanly eject an unfired cartridge in the upright position with the magazine still in place?

1911Tuner
May 5, 2008, 09:14 PM
A recommended break-in period in order to get the gun to function is a myth and a misleading notion. It shouldn't be required. It's a machine. If it's built correctly, it'll run. It doesn't have a choice.

Send it back.

DAdams
May 5, 2008, 10:11 PM
factory technician I worked with when my PM 9 was at the magical 400 round break-in and mine was getting worse instead of getting better and with light strikes being the end all said this...."the PM 9 should run any quality manufactured ammunition regardless of JHP nose configuration".

I tend to agree with Larry Seecamp (I am paraphrasing) who says break-in on a handgun is bunk. It should wear out with time, (the rest of the analogy is mine) not get better with age as in a good single malt. ;)

What's the update??

rlgreen
May 6, 2008, 05:02 PM
I wanna be clear at the outset that i follow 1911Tuner's posts like religion on this board, so (gulp) am loath to even whisper to the contrary, but i've certainly had my share of all types of autos where it took a good couple hundred rounds for things like the slide stop to be smooth and workable with just the thumb of the shooting hand, or the mag release to be an easy shooting thumb press for a release. they're not only machines, they are machined. and (teaching fish to swim here i know) that machining is done to a spec that has a tolerance so (example only) a spec might say .001 to .004 mm gap between slide and rail. a quality machine job will be done to the tightest tolerance the spec permits taking for granted that over time, operation will work it back to the other side of the spec and...as you say...eventually deteriorate beyond the acceptable parameters of the spec. back in my days as a ground pounder in Uncle Sam's Maintenance Crew, we used to run from new 1911 'cuz the inevitable sand and dirt would jam them. in those days, a little rattle twixt slide and frame meant a gun was "good to go"....nowadays, when i'm spending $1k or close to it for a gun, and have grown a bit to old to be crawling in as much dirt and sand as i used to, i want my guns machined nice and tight.

to 420, we're not talking about "flinging" here, if you look at the pics vsix posted you'll see we're talking about the ability to get the round out of the ejection port *AT ALL* as its jamming b/n the back end of the barrel/feed ramp and the back of the chamber/striker housing

420Stainless
May 6, 2008, 06:33 PM
to 420, we're not talking about "flinging" here, if you look at the pics vsix posted you'll see we're talking about the ability to get the round out of the ejection port *AT ALL* as its jamming b/n the back end of the barrel/feed ramp and the back of the chamber/striker housing

I can't tell anything about whether or not the round could clear the port from that picture. All I can tell is that it is in the upright position and there is a round beneath it. The wording in the OP post suggests that he would expect a loaded cartridge to clear the weapon by racking the slide as if to load an empty chamber. I was just pointing out that I would not expect the round to clear in that position and was asking if I should.

I can't say that I've tried it often, but I have the feeling many, if not most, pistols will jam if you retract and release the slide with a loaded round in the upright position and have another round following in the magazine. If you don't take some action by tilting the gun, or by removing the magazine and allowing the round to fall out of the mag well, there is no place left for it to go.

possum
May 6, 2008, 06:42 PM
i would call kahr. the polymer models seem to have the issues, my steel framed model k-40 and all the ones that i have shot in the past have been excellent i don't know what is up with kahr and there ploymer models.

1911Tuner
May 6, 2008, 06:46 PM
loath to even whisper to the contrary,

Hey! Don't whisper. If it worked...shout. It's not that sometimes a couple hundred rounds doesn't improve one, and it's not like it never, ever works. Nothing "never" or "always" does anything.

It's just that, if we keep accepting this sort of thing, there's no reason for the manufacturers to take the necessary steps to effect an overall product improvement...and we keep throwing our money at guns that are assumed to be OUR responsibility for makin'em work. The notion of burnin' up a half case or more of what is gettin' to be expensive ammunition...in hopes that it'll straighten out a problem that shouldn't have been a problem...is a bit unrealistic. With the CNC machining in today's gun industry, there's no reason that we can't have the best firearms that we've ever had...but it seems to be headed in the other direction.

jocko
May 6, 2008, 07:06 PM
My para carry nine was not good at first but after about 200+ rounds, it was flawless. I could live with that, very few auto's do u buy where they just tell you to drive it like you stole it and instead of being alittle gently with it for x number of miles. Call it break in or range time. My kahr didn't need any break in at all, I just figured kahr and many other mfg-ers use the x number of rounds for break in to possably avoid one sending it back with 20 rounds through it etc . Might be wrong there also.

jocko
May 6, 2008, 07:08 PM
Most all of the polymer kahrs today were excellent.

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