[Nolo]

A while back I came up with a concept for a rifle/carbine that would be specifically designed to arm the people of a nation in combat. Certain requirements I laid out were:
-Be able to survive multiple weapons bans.
-Be semi-automatic (as if I were to make the rifle a bolty, thus increasing resistance to bans, I'd basically end up with the Mosin-Nagant or Enfield).
-Be chambered in a round that provides acceptable power in a semi-auto platform (later modified to: be chambered in 7.62 NATO).
-Have a ten-round detachable box magazine, with provisions for magwell modifications to suit caliber, mission and firearm bans (for instance, must be convertible to 7.62x39, 5.56, 7.62 NATO, 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, .280 Orion; must be able to be modified for a fixed magazine).
-Must have no flash hider/muzzle brake.
-Must have a full-length wooden stock.
-Must look as non-threatening as possible.
-Be made using stamped parts/modern construction techniques.
-Have a replaceable trigger group compatible with a full auto group.

And this is what I came up with:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa149/Nolo_photo/LynxCarbineRifle-1.jpg

What do you guys think?

[darkknight]

reminds me of an fn fal sks and M1a mixed together.

[MD_Willington]

Looks like a mini FN49?

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=FN49&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2

[Anteater1717]

Looks kinda like a VZ-52

[Nolo]

It's a lot of things mixed together. The idea originally came about when looking at the FN49 rifle. I even took that design "full-term" (my term for when I fully draw and shade something). Here's the picture:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa149/Nolo_photo/Forty-NinerRifleDrawingSmall.jpg
I then came up with the idea for the "citizen's rifle" or "militia carbine", designed specifically to give as much firepower as possible to citizens of a firearm-ban happy country. The next design took pages from the SKS, FN49, AK, Garand and other weapons. That design did not satisfy me either in looks or the actual product; it was too complicated to create. Then I found the wonderful Vz. 52 rifle. That rifle formed, by in large, the basis for this carbine, and many, many features are taken from it.

[Nolo]

Right on the money, Anteater!

[Chipperman]

Looks like a French MAS-49

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl10-e.htm


edit: you posted the second one while I was posting my reply. The frist one looks like the MAS.

[jmr40]

The AAR (Appalachian Assault Rifle), better know as a Marlin 30-30 has served in that role for years and meets most of your criteria.

All kidding aside, the second drawing reminds me of a Ruger mini-30, which could also meet most of your criteria.

[Nolo]

I suppose it does, kind of.
I never even considered the MAS 49.
The second drawing is far, far larger than the Mini-30, and that rifle does not fire a full-power round, has been singled out multiple times in AWBs, etc, etc.

[Vicious-Peanut]

I think the Mini-30 is a good choice, but it doesnt fire a full power round, but it isnt a poodle shooter either. 10 rounds mags are cheap, and 20-30s are available for us who live in free states. It looks PC, and its stone dead reliable.

[Nolo]

The Mini-30 was one of the rifles I referenced when making this gun. The reason I did not just go for the Mini-30 is because of its smaller cartridge (I wanted true rifle cartridge [i.e., 7.62x51mm NATO], with the option to use 7.62x39 [which is not experiencing the availability issues of the NATO]), and its bad PC history (the current rifles are plenty PC, but the old ones have established a history as an "Assault Weapon").

[Vityaz]

How about a California legal M1A?

[Deer Hunter]

Instead of planning our rifles we could have if another AW ban is put into play, we should be fighting tooth-and-nail against whatever ban the antis would try to throw at us.

[Wheeler44]

Real similar to a AG42B, the "Swede Garand" and parent of the Hakim rifle.

[Nolo]

Hmmm...
I suppose the Cali-Legal M1A would be a good choice, but ain't they rather expensive? Machined receivers and such. I'm looking at being able to crank these bad boys out for little more than a WASR-10.
Also, the M1A does not have the modularity of this weapon, and I believe is quite heavier.
The Ljungmann rifle was one of the rifles specifically referenced in the design of this weapon.
Deer Hunter: I do both.

[CBS220]

To reduce costs, perhaps remove that curvature on the bottom of the buttstock? It may have some ergonomic benefits, but for a rifle meant to arm the citizenry, economy is more important up to a point. Seems as if the less woodwork needed, the better...

[Nolo]

Are you talkin' about the curve at the bottom of the buttplate?
Yeah, I could do that, it'd be worth it.
Looked nicer that way, though. :D
I forgot to mention the buttplate! :D The buttplate is made of heavy brass or steel, perfect for smashin' tyrants upside the head.

[CBS220]

I think I misspoke, Nolo. Perhaps this will show you what I meant?

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3660/fortyninerrifledrawingskj0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I admit it looks better with the curve, but that seems like patriots could sacrifice aesthetics for economy :p

[Hoppy590]

sure looks like a number of guns

FN 49
MAS 59
Lungman
G43
VZ52

[Nolo]

CBS220, you're looking at the wrong rifle.
The first rifle is the rifle in question here. The second was an earlier design that was much more heavily influenced by the FN49. In fact, it pretty much is an FN49.
The newer design is the one in my first post, it's a lot smaller and lighter, and also has much simpler wood construction, though it still has that feature.
Hoppy, all of those rifles were referenced in the design of the Lynx.
Oh, I completely forgot to mention!
The weapon (the first one, not the one with big honkin' 20-rounder mag) is called the Lynx Battle Carbine.
The second one was called the "Forty-Niner" Rifle (in reference to the FN49), but I consider it to be obsolete as far as the requirements are concerned.

[CBS220]

Ah, I see.

However, the point still seems valid, I think. Russia couldn't have made what- 34 million Mosin Nagants? given extra work for each rifle.

[Heavy Metal Hero]

-Have a ten-round detachable box magazine, with provisions for magwell modifications to suit caliber, mission and firearm bans (for instance, must be convertible to 7.62x39; must be able to be modified for a fixed magazine).

How would it be protected from a CA ban? They only allow 5 rounds IIRC.

[Atla]

I see no point to it.

Sorry.

If you look at the more recent AWBII that has been considered, it bans a lot of guns BY NAME.

Nothing is ban proof.

Doesn't matter if it's the caliber, the looks, or the color. It can be banned because it is a firearm and a threat to liberals.

[Nolo]

How would it be protected from a CA ban? They only allow 5 rounds IIRC.
By shipping with the fixed five round mags. The weapons could still be produced with almost no tooling changes, as the weapon was designed from the outset to have a modular magwell for just such an occurrence.
However, the point still seems valid, I think. Russia couldn't have made what- 34 million Mosin Nagants? given extra work for each rifle.
Certainly. I'll think about a straight (what to they call that? English-style?) stock. Maybe Enfield-style or something.

[Nolo]

Alta, I realize that.
But it's only sacrificed a piece of paper and a lot of my expendable time, so it's not a big deal.
A good concept, I think, though. Nothing is ban-proof. This is supposed to be ban-resistant. And capable to boot.

[MAKster]

I think the rifle that best fits what you're aiming for would be similar to the SKS. The design is simple, reliable, and the 10 round fixed magazine is not a real handicap for these purposes.

[Andrewsky]

I don't understand the point of this rifle.

Are they supposed to be handed out?

People who tend to be interested in defending themselves wouldn't mind getting something more expensive like an AR-15.

[Nolo]

SKS, like the Mini-30, has the history of an "evil assault weapon". And it (at least the Yugo versions, not that anti-gunnies can tell the difference) has a grenade launcher. Big no-no.

[Nolo]

I don't understand the point of this rifle.

Are they supposed to be handed out?

People who tend to be interested in defending themselves wouldn't mind getting something more expensive like an AR-15.
Sort of.
They're supposed to be able to be produced by a legitimate firearms company still operating under multiple firearms bans. They are meant to be able to be legally owned by the majority of the populace pre-conflict, then handed out to militias post conflict. That is why they have characteristics of modern weapons (modularity, advanced construction techniques) under the guise of an old-school gun.

[Andrewsky]

Do you really think their will be bans if people are that willing to arm themselves?

[Nolo]

Do you really think their will be bans if people are that willing to arm themselves?
Don't you remember 1994-2004?
That sort of thing could come up again, should the government go even more downhill.
I'm all for trying to prevent that from happening. But I would like to prevent the militia fighting against the oppressive government relying on SKSs and Mosin-Nagants, both of which use imported ammo and parts.

[RancidSumo]

Move the rear sights as far back as you can to improve accuracy.

[Nolo]

Move the rear sights as far back as you can to improve accuracy.
Already did, it has a removable receiver cover.

[rock71]

Just raid the CMP and hand out Garands?????????????

[Andrewsky]

Don't you remember 1994-2004?
That sort of thing could come up again, should the government go even more downhill.
I'm all for trying to prevent that from happening. But I would like to prevent the militia fighting against the oppressive government relying on SKSs and Mosin-Nagants, both of which use imported ammo and parts.

Okay. Sounds good to me.:)

[Vaarok]

Volksturmgewehr.

http://www.vvm.com/~histpart/RJVG1.jpg

[Atla]

Sorry Nolo, I should have said it was a very nicely done drawing!

The SKS would work pretty well, except for that 'nasty' looking bayonet.

We all know how all of those crazy 'drive-by bayonetings' lead to the AWB changing the law on them.

[Nolo]

But it's only sacrificed a piece of paper and a lot of my expendable time, so it's not a big deal.
Alta, I did not mean for this to be offensive or aggressive, I meant it exactly as it is written. But thanks for the complement anyway. I have a lot of free time.
Vaarok, you've basically got the exact concept down. I doubt there's any tooling for that rifle left, though.
The SKS was originally the rifle that I would have relied upon. I looked at it again, and found that bayonet and GL are major downsides (for this purpose, anyway) and that the rifle is in stationary (not being produced anymore) quantities, as well as being an import also hurt the purpose.
And I like 7.62 NATO better, anyway.

[Trempel]

-Be able to survive multiple weapons bans.
-...with provisions for magwell modifications to suit caliber, mission and firearm bans (for instance, must be convertible to 7.62x39; must be able to be modified for a fixed magazine).
-Must have no flash hider/muzzle brake.
-Must have a full-length wooden stock.
-Must look as non-threatening as possible
You guys must be smoking crack. I swear, some people will try to rationalize and find logic in weapons bans that the socialist left tries to shove up your narrow asses, like they give a damn. Our stance as gun owners should be "NO F-ING WAY!" Because if not, you can forget about some limp-wristed "non-threatening", non-fat, no-whip, soy milt, wooden stock Fud rifle, just as much as you can kiss your AKs or ARs goodbye. You must be demented if you think that if the type of rifle you guys are proposing was the only one left, that Clintons or Obamas won't try to go after them as well.

To the socialists, all guns are threatening when they're in the hands of the average citizens.
To the socialists, all guns are bad enough to be banned.

[Nolo]

Tell, me Trempel, do you own a bolt-action weapon in .22LR?
Because that's exactly the kind of gun that Aussies are allowed, and they have "caved" to these bans.
(By the way, if you don't, shame on you; how will you train new shooters?)
It's not about complying, it's about being able to retain your factories and tooling when the SHTF, which I expect to come (if it does) around the period when semi-autos would be banned (not because of that ban, but because of the sort of authoritarianism that such a government would need to have to impose one on the American citizenry).
One feature I did not mention was that I wanted the trigger group to be easily replaceable, so that a fully automatic group could be installed.
Is that compliance, Trempel?
The modularity is what makes this rifle potent even after multiple bans.
And I definitely would want 30-round mags.
And to prove I'm not compliant, here's some other pics:
EDIT: I removed the pictures because this thread is about the rifle in the first post. :)
I assure you, this is the only weapon of it's kind in my portfolio.

[roscoe]

I think an American-made SKS in 6.5/6.8 with no bayonet/grenade launcher, in the compact range of the Chinese version, and with a rear peep-sight like the Tech-sight, would be a hell of a deal. No magazines needed, 50-state legal, good sights, versatile cartridge, and reliable/durable.

[W.E.G.]

Just make mine a FAL, and we'll not elect any ninconpoop politician who would threaten our rights.

You want a proper solution, not an appeasement.

Nice drawings.

[RedLion]

You'd have to make it a non-military caliber since a lot of countries have banned that, and 'modified to accept fixed magazines' or anything else that can be converted to fit the ban means nothing. They'll just say something along the lines of "once a ..... always a .....".


A metal stock like an FAL folder or M3 stock would be easier to manufacture than a wood stock. You could integrate the grip into the wire stock.

And why no bolt for it? An Enfield can keep pace with any semi-auto battlerifle, and is a lot simpler and more reliable. You could just modernize the Enfield. Maybe a more modern cartridge or lighter or something.

But......, I'm kinda under the belief that no gun is safe. And when the time comes to hide your guns, its a better time to take your guns out.

[SMLE]

How about a full-auto M16/M4 and we kick the banner's @$$es out of OUR country on the points of our bayonets. Then this would all be a moot point.

The time spent on these drawings would have been better spent writing letters, making phone calls and lobbying your elected representatives. Or Organizing and motivating your friends and neighbors to do the the same.

The people we are dealing with won't be appeased. No gun you could ever design would be OK by their standards as long as it was in the hands of one of us peasants. So if you must design rifles, design them for VICTORY, not appeasement.

[Nolo]

Just make mine a FAL, and we'll not elect any ninconpoop politician who would threaten our rights.

You want a proper solution, not an appeasement.

Nice drawings.
That is if they don't fix the election with electronic voting machines.
And why no bolt for it? An Enfield can keep pace with any semi-auto battlerifle, and is a lot simpler and more reliable. You could just modernize the Enfield. Maybe a more modern cartridge or lighter or something.
Welcome to the Ishapore. No innovation there. The Ishy fills its role, this weapon fills a slightly different one. If you've let them ban large caliber bolties, you've let them go too far. Wayyy too far.

[armoredman]

Sorry, have no idea what happened with that post. Edit to say, the SKS seems to bethe perfect "civilian" rifle at this point, simple, rugged, durable, and inexpensive, still.
Now the Saiga has a lot going for it, as well. A Saiga in 308 may be a perfect anwser to this question.

[Hoppy590]

third one is from the game "kill zone" :)

[Nolo]

third one is from the game "kill zone"
What?

[Acheron]

On the rifle designs I would recommend beefing up the stocks a bit. They look a little thin in the grip area and are likely break in melee combat. This was a big issue for the Germans with the StG44, as the stocks would snap clean off if you hit anything with it. I would add a bayo lug onto it as well (even though a bayo lug is more likely to be banned).

[stealth]

Firstly I'd like to comment on Nolos drawings, I saw alot of good ideas in the last drawings of shorties + select fires, some of which I know I wouldn't mind having.

The original 'Citizens Rifle' is a noble one, we need more people like Nolo to project these ideas forward but more importantly to impliment them. I will always praise new arms and ammo, and as a fellow THR'er sig reads "If it goes bang, Its alright in my book" (I hope it got that right).

Oddly enough the real issue here has been brought to the surface by a few recent posts,
W.E.G. Just make mine a FAL, and we'll not elect any ninconpoop politician who would threaten our rights.
SMLE How about a full-auto M16/M4 and we kick the banner's @$$es out of OUR country on the points of our bayonets. Then this would all be a moot point.

The time spent on these drawings would have been better spent writing letters, making phone calls and lobbying your elected representatives. Or Organizing and motivating your friends and neighbors to do the the same.

The people we are dealing with won't be appeased. No gun you could ever design would be OK by their standards as long as it was in the hands of one of us peasants. So if you must design rifles, design them for VICTORY, not appeasement.
RedLion I'm kinda under the belief that no gun is safe. And when the time comes to hide your guns, its a better time to take your guns out.


I'm sorry to quote so many, And yet I'm not so sorry, as the Many MUST reflect these ideals if we are to preserve our lives as we know it as law-abiding gunners. IMO The current state of gun rights is in peril, a state that it shouldn't be in. As a young shooter, enthusiast and proud owner of firearms and liberty thereof, I worry for Americas future.. the peoples future (just look at the patriot act,omgosh).

My only regret is simply not being articulate enough to express the importance and relevance of such an essential liberty.
I hope this makes sense, If I am proud of any aspect of my country, It is our rights.. and it is gun rights, The right to "keep and bear arms" that always makes me proud to be an American.

[JCMAG]

Hey Nolo, great sketches! They're really cool.

I'd definitely get one of your rifles. I'm of the opinion that, in the case of large bans, that it is imperative to have large stores of capable firearms already possessed. You are then threatened by seizures, at which point all questions of legality of the firearms go out the window--it's time to start unloading the stores and loading the magazines.

A ban resistant rifle isn't a bad idea, it just isn't likely. I'm not saying your design is faulty--I really like it. But if your rifle were to become popular, it, too, would be banned. :(

But in the meantime, take a look see into your state law on building your own firearms or make a project to "modify" an existing one. Get to work, see if you can't make that FAL-M1A come alive. Could be cool.

[Nolo]

I'll talk about the other rifles (and shotties) some other time.
I will certainly think about beefing up the stocks, however the stock of the Lynx was based on the stock of the Garand, which I believe is quite suitable for melee combat. A bayonet lug, while I would love this rifle to have one, would damage the reputation of the weapon. That's a "scary" feature, so it'd draw attention to the weapon, which is exactly what I don't want. Which is, by the way, why I made the primary melee weapon on this rifle the buttstock, to kind of compensate for the lack of a bayonet.
This rifle would be marketed as a "hunting" rifle, and distributed as such. If it were ever fitted with polymer stocks, they would be in woodland camo or something not black (pink!?). The point is basically to continue to have capable military rifles in the hands of citizens up until the point when we really can't take it any more.
If I were to go with a non-military caliber, I'd go with either .260 Remington or a caliber I (sort of) designed. It's basically just .280 British with the case slimmed down to the same diameter as the 7.62x39mm, retaining performance using more advanced powders (like the 6.8 SPC).

[Rifleman 173]

Nice looking rifle. Now which caliber(s) will it be made in? I would think that a rifle like that would do well in the 6.8 SPC caliber or the 6.5 Grendel caliber. I would NOT try to make it in the 7.62 X 39 cartridge because then you would merely be doubling what the SKS does. You could always try for a .270 Winchester that shoots semi-automatic fire.

[308sc]

looks like a sks mixed with an m-1 garand

[elmerfudd]

It needs to be easily capable of mounting optics. Many citizens don't have the greatest eyesight and all modern fighting rifles should be capable of mounting NV equipment. A simple rail along the top would allow for attaching iron sights, scopes, red dots and NV.

I like the idea however.

[Soap]

Why in the heck are we even considering designing rifles to meet some asinine ban? I have my Citizen's Rifle, it is called an AR-15.

The time spent on these drawings would have been better spent writing letters, making phone calls and lobbying your elected representatives. Or Organizing and motivating your friends and neighbors to do the the same.

The people we are dealing with won't be appeased. No gun you could ever design would be OK by their standards as long as it was in the hands of one of us peasants. So if you must design rifles, design them for VICTORY, not appeasement.

SMLE is right!

[bannockburn]

Nolo

How about the HK SL 6/7 rifles? Based on the proven HK 91 design in a non EBR package.

[MAKster]

If the purpose of this exercise is to design a rifle that will be least likely to be banned then you need to drop the semiauto requirement. All of the previous and proposed bans are focused on semiautos. The least likely to be banned would be a bolt, lever, or pump action. Maybe something like the Remington pump action rifles. Polymer stock, detachable mags, site mounts, and relatively quick to cycle.

[bannockburn]

MAKster

Something like the Remington Model 7615 then?

[Nolo]

Nolo

How about the HK SL 6/7 rifles? Based on the proven HK 91 design in a non EBR package.
Wow. That's almost exactly what I was envisioning. Very, very close. Doesn't appear to have modularity, though. But, then again, it was designed a long time ago.
If the purpose of this exercise is to design a rifle that will be least likely to be banned then you need to drop the semiauto requirement. All of the previous and proposed bans are focused on semiautos. The least likely to be banned would be a bolt, lever, or pump action. Maybe something like the Remington pump action rifles. Polymer stock, detachable mags, site mounts, and relatively quick to cycle.
I came to that conclusion earlier as well, however a couple of things stopped me from going that avenue:
-Those design paths appear to lead me to rifles that pretty much already exist (though I've already run into some of that here), such as the Enfield, Marlin 336, and the aforementioned Remmy pumps (especially the 7600, assuming we could fit, say, an FAL magazine).
-The rifle would need to have characteristics compliant with the second-latest ban of the period when one would estimate a violent revolution because the latest ban would be ignored due to armed fighting breaking out.

[BBroadside]

I think you are a fine artist, Nolo.

You wrote: "If it were ever fitted with polymer stocks, they would be in woodland camo or something not black (pink!?)" Interesting thought ... what's a color for polymer that the easily-scared wouldn't be scared of? How about a fake wood pattern? It would be the station wagon of rifles. Maybe gray? Sell it in white in Northern areas as "snow camo". On the whole I'm thinking a neutral khaki may be best. Of course, I'm just brainstorming, I don't really think any of this stuff matters.

I have mentally searched for the same thing a few times, and all I could come up with was the Remington 7400, modified to accept detachable magazines. How inexpensive and reliable such a conversion would be, I don't know. Also, a Rem 7400 would have open sights (which militaries don't seem to use any more) and it's out of production, replaced by the 750, which seems a few hundred $ more.

Tell me more about "with provisions for magwell modifications to suit caliber, mission and firearm bans" ... does that mean it would need an interchangeable barrel and bolt face for temporary caliber changes, or are you talking about permanent modifications? The former would be quite an interesting feature, but I really have no idea what is practicable. (Edit: this question was answered by your talking about modularity.)

The other day I was thinking, "What would really pass all the bans would be a nice semi-auto, non-detachable mag, in a good medium caliber along the lines of .30-30 (only rimless), with a non-scary wooden stock." Fail! I had serendipitously "invented" the SKS, which is often banned by name in anti-gun legislation. (I think Michael Douglas mentioned it The American President as an example of something he wanted to ban, but couldn't because of that darn gun lobby.)

So I guess my "thought experiment" was interesting even though it wasn't exactly successful. Should the pro-2nd amendment forces fail, and stuff gets banned, pretty much any semi-auto can get the axe. It wouldn't be so bad to fall back on bolt- and lever guns from a purely shooting standpoint, except that obviously the legislation wouldn't stop there, and soon those would be banned too.

"Whatcha keep that slingshot for, citizen?" Chills.

[Nolo]

Tell me more about "with provisions for magwell modifications to suit caliber, mission and firearm bans" ... does that mean it would need an interchangeable barrel and bolt face for temporary caliber changes, or are you talking about permanent modifications? The former would be quite an interesting feature, but I really have no idea what is practicable.
Well, caliber shortages are a fact of life for a fledgling army, which is of the sort we'd be dealing with if the SHTF, so I added separate magazine, barrel and bolt face assemblies so that you could change from 5.56/.223, 7.62x39, 7.62x51/.308, 6.5x39, 6.8x43 and 7x43 (which is a proprietary round that I sketched up). The rifle would be offered in all of these calibers, and, with simple changes, could be retrofitted for any of them. I wanted capability similar to the Masada in a rifle that wouldn't make the anti-gunnies piss their pants. Because if they do, they tend to pass legislation against it. I'm all for noncompliance, but I'd like to keep things legal for as long as possible. And I think this rifle takes me for as long as possible (shoving us back to 130-year-old technology? Not possible).

[Patrick_Henry]

Nolo,
OK, a couple of things I'm thinking...What about putting peep sights on it? That would give a greater accuracy level with iron sights in a situation where optics might not be much of an option and secondly, why not make this in a nonmilitary caliber so that it would be a "hunting rifle"? I do like a lot of the interchangeability on this thing though... I am definitely one to fight for the RKBA, but regardless of why your designing this I think it has potential to be a really cool gun!

[BullpupBen]

I like the idea, but how is this any different than any other semi-auto hunting rifle that feeds from a ten round magazine?
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=97118887

Remington 742 as an example

[SaMx]

The idea of an affordable semi auto rifle that is legal in all 50 states is worthwhile, even if some people are upset about the idea of designing guns to comply with bans.

sure it doesn't necessarily do anything a CA legal M1A, but the idea is to be cheaper.

I would say the saiga would meet the objectives, aside from a wood stock and being american made.

[armoredman]

Are there any stock replacements for the Saiga 308?

[Owlnmole]

I have to say that, while I admire the concept, I think the project would need to become much simpler to be practical. A rugged, simple hunting-style rifle with an integral magazine holding ten rounds or less but standard charger guides for stripper clips would be great. Think sporterized SKS or SKS-ized Mini-14/30 in a selection of calibers (say .223, 7.62x39mm and .308 to start, maybe .243 for countries that ban military calibers). Your concept is great, but I think it looks too expensive to actually meet the goal because a citizen's rifle, either self-bought or for emergency militias, must be inexpensive and easy to built quickly. Maybe the Volksturmgewehr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturmgewehr_1-5) could provide some inspiration?

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Great. So you drew a sketch of an FN-49.

[brentn]

Thats awesome!

Too bad you couldn't get particular people to help you out with all the different parts for manufacture so that you can actually make one for yourself! There are a few guys who have made copys or their own firearms that are pretty darned neat on another canadian forum I frequent. One of them was a copy of a STEN but altered so that it was not a variant, but looked the same. It was the legal way to own one, and it was pretty neat. Up here the sten is prohibited..

[Funderb]

the m1 garand is banned in the new AWB.

[Nolo]

OK, a couple of things I'm thinking...What about putting peep sights on it? That would give a greater accuracy level with iron sights in a situation where optics might not be much of an option and secondly, why not make this in a nonmilitary caliber so that it would be a "hunting rifle"? I do like a lot of the interchangeability on this thing though... I am definitely one to fight for the RKBA, but regardless of why your designing this I think it has potential to be a really cool gun!
The sights on this rifle are the same (essentially) as the Garand. Which, if I'm not much mistaken, has peep sights. I mentioned before (a couple times, I believe) the "7x43" round. This is essentially .280 British with the case diameter reduced to 11.3mm (the same as 7.62x39mm), but retaining the same performance (139gr at ~2550 f/s) thanks to modern powders. Being a nonmilitary caliber, it would be a fine choice.
I like the idea, but how is this any different than any other semi-auto hunting rifle that feeds from a ten round magazine?
How many of those hunting rifles do you know of that would be as cheap as an SKS, be able to change calibers with a simple disassembly, take 30-round magazines, and have a removable trigger group that can be replaced with a full-auto group?
sure it doesn't necessarily do anything a CA legal M1A [can't do],
See above.
I have to say that, while I admire the concept, I think the project would need to become much simpler to be practical. A rugged, simple hunting-style rifle with an integral magazine holding ten rounds or less but standard charger guides for stripper clips would be great. Think sporterized SKS or SKS-ized Mini-14/30 in a selection of calibers (say .223, 7.62x39mm and .308 to start, maybe .243 for countries that ban military calibers). Your concept is great, but I think it looks too expensive to actually meet the goal because a citizen's rifle, either self-bought or for emergency militias, must be inexpensive and easy to built quickly. Maybe the Volksturmgewehr could provide some inspiration?
How is it not simple? Oh, and it has standard charger guides, they're on the front of the bolt, like the SKS, but they're hidden under the front part of the receiver when the bolt is closed. I really should have copied my spec guide and shoved it in here on my first post.
Great. So you drew a sketch of an FN-49.
On the second drawing? Yes. Well, an FN-49 with a 20-round box mag. (which I believe the Argentines actually had in 7mm)
But we're not talking about the second drawing. We're talking about the first.
Too bad you couldn't get particular people to help you out with all the different parts for manufacture so that you can actually make one for yourself! There are a few guys who have made copys or their own firearms that are pretty darned neat on another canadian forum I frequent. One of them was a copy of a STEN but altered so that it was not a variant, but looked the same. It was the legal way to own one, and it was pretty neat. Up here the sten is prohibited..
I wish...

[Nolo]

By the way, here's 7x43 (.280 Orion):
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa149/Nolo_photo/280BritishRevisitedbmp.jpg

[lionking]

Nice drawing.


But as far as citizen's rifle I say it is suppose to be whatever a person decides he wants it to be.Realistically it is the AR-15,go to a range and you'll more often see more of those than any other rifle.And I doubt most of the owners would turn them in if they were banned from ownership,just wouldn't see them at the range much anymore.


Unlike Britian and Australians,Americans will be less inclined to turn them in for melting down,and I wonder how many Brits and Aussies actually stashed away instead.

[Patrick_Henry]

If these ever start being produced let me know...

[Nolo]

I will, Mr. Henry.
And I love your sig.

[Auburn1992]

is that not a french mas?

[Nolo]

Neither of them are, as was established earlier. Surprisingly, the MAS 49 was one of the few semiautomatic postwar rifles I did not reference.

[Nolo]

Whoop! I lied. Just found my semiautomatic rifle reference sheet I used extensively while designing this rifle; the MAS-49 is on it.

[Famaldehide Face]

Probably a modern derivative of the Cei-Rigotti?, A thumbhole stock would be cool on it.

http://encyclodesarmes.free.fr/pays/italie/fusil/CEI-RIGOTTI/CEI-RIGOTTI.htm

Not to forget if "The Nation" is NATO, It should be chambered in 5.56 as some of the citizens may have a small/weak stature and the ability to accept STANAG magazines if there are left over ammo supplies from NATO troops. The standard magazine for the "Citizen Rifle" would be 10 rounds. 20/30+ round magazines will only be legal in the event of war. The same thing goes to "The Nation" if it is a Warsaw Pact member but vice-versa.

I was thinking the "Citizen Rifle" can be a bullpup but like the 1901 Thorneycroft Carbine so it will not be classed as an assault weapon.

[Nolo]

Well, in concept, maybe.
Wasn't that the first assault rifle?

[Famaldehide Face]

Here are some edited images of a Warsaw Bloc "Citizen Rifle":

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/9320/citizensksbullpuptx4.jpg

The bottom one is designed to survive an "Assault Weapon" ban as pistol grips are illeagal in some states/countries. The idea is from the Monsterman Grip that is supposed to make AK's & AR's legal in California so i came up with the idea for a Bullpup to survive this situation.

[Funderb]

except the bolt carrier smacking you in the face, not to mention your eyes being poked out by the ejecting hot brass........ :D
It's awesome!!!!!

[Nolo]

Not to forget if "The Nation" is NATO, It should be chambered in 5.56 as some of the citizens may have a small/weak stature and the ability to accept STANAG magazines if there are left over ammo supplies from NATO troops. The standard magazine for the "Citizen Rifle" would be 10 rounds. 20/30+ round magazines will only be legal in the event of war. The same thing goes to "The Nation" if it is a Warsaw Pact member but vice-versa.
The 7mm cartridge should be fine for people of all statures. Even the Japanese can handle that sort of cartridge, I believe.
5.56 doesn't feel right for a semiauto. But remember I also had exchangeable magazine groups, one of which is for 5.56.

[paintballdude902]

the idea of arifel designed to arm citizens reminds me of the swiss

a rifle for every man

[Nolo]

If I were going for purely that concept, I'd go with the Manx rifle (an automatic bullpup 6.5mm rifle that I'm designing).

[Patrick_Henry]

Nolo,
Are you always this overrun with good ideas?

[SaMx]

I agree the idea is good.

The only problem is that I'm not sure you could produce it cheaply as designed. being able to change calibers is great but would require some complex engineering.

I think it would make more sense to design it as a simple stamped receiver rifle that uses common mags for the caliber (AR-15 for .223 or 6.8 SPC, AK for 7.62x39 or 5.45, and FAL or M-14 for .308). That way people could use pre-ban mags in states where that is necessary.

[Nolo]

You can always produce it cheaply, the only issue is if you lose money on it.
In this case, I would not care. If selling it for a loss gets the rifle into every gun-loving household in America, I'd do it.
Plus I intend to be fabulously rich, anyway.
By the way, thank you to everyone for your input, praise and criticism.
Patrick, you should see my "Guns" folder on my computer. So many ideas, so little free time. This is why I only have a 3.25 (GPA)!

[Patrick_Henry]

I hope you get a chance to do something with these ideas. While there is always room for nitpicking, you have at least one very strong and well developed concept gun in the works (and it sounds like several). It would be a shame not to see such a well thought out machine not come to completion...

[Nolo]

Well, thank you, Mr. Henry. ;)
I'd like to add an addendum for some of those who are concerned:
This rifle is not about compliance. This rifle is about subversion. For this particular weapon, I do not care if some of it's features would be illegal for a civilian to own in a hoplophobic nation, as long as the gun-grabbers don't know it's illegal!
It's like infiltrating a building. You want to look like all the other harmless employees, such as janitorial staff. This rifle is designed to look like all the other 'harmless' hunting rifles, while in reality giving the average citizen as close to modern capability as they can get. This rifle can change its stripes very quickly, with the addition of an EBR-type package that would have its tooling prepared before the event of revolution could change into a powerful fully automatic rifle equal to or better than any modern rifle currently offered.
I'll have to make threads on my other weapons some other time.

[NoirFan]

Hi Nolo, let me start by saying I think it's a great looking design! I love the idea of classic wood-stocked rifles with modular capabilities and I would definitely buy one if they were real. I do question the intended purpose though, since we have no guarantee that past trends in firearms bans will continue into the future. We know that anti-gun legislation is fairly arbitrary when it comes to determining "evil" features, so it wouldn't take much for this rifle to lose its "camouflage" very quickly.

[cracked butt]

If the rifle is ever needed for what you've designed it for, it won't matter if it offends people or not when its brought out of hiding- just a thought. Another suggestion is to ixnay the detachable magazine unless the rifle is going to be made in vast numbers- a few damaged/lost magazines puts the gun out of commision otherwise. If you don't believe that, try to find a new magazine for a FN-49 or Mas without the use of the internet. This is where the M1 really shines- you can stockpile clips for around $1 each and really don't have to worry if you lose them.

A better idea might be widespread circulation of plans to build Sten Submachineguns. Large numbers of these were built right under the Nazis noses in occupied Norway. The parts for them can easily be made in a decentralized fashion in different factories without drawing much attention due to the fact that the individual parts don't look very gun-like.

[Patrick_Henry]

Have you considered putting a cleaning kit in the butt stock like on the SKS, this seems like a very useful feature to me...

[Nolo]

I could certainly build a cleaning kit into the buttstock.
I find that rifles are much better at war than SMGs, which is why, while I totally support building SMGs in wartime (I've even got that design base covered, a design named the Partisan), A rifle is almost always more useful.
I do question the intended purpose though, since we have no guarantee that past trends in firearms bans will continue into the future.
No one knew that an illegitimate Austrian painter would grow up to rule nearly all of Europe and kill almost 10 million people, either.
If the rifle is ever needed for what you've designed it for, it won't matter if it offends people or not when its brought out of hiding- just a thought.
Which is exactly why it's convertible into a machine gun.
Another suggestion is to ixnay the detachable magazine
This is the argument several Brits made when they were about to adopt the SMLE. It has largely been unfounded. The weapon can load from stripper clips if need be, so the argument is duly null.

[Acheron]

No one knew that an illegitimate Austrian painter would grow up to rule nearly all of Europe and kill almost 10 million people, either


And Godwin's Law is proven true yet again. Sigh.:(

[Nolo]

And Godwin's Law is proven true yet again. Sigh.
Godwin is a moron. People use Hitler as an example because he's a darn good one. It's like cellphones. People use them because they're darn useful. Are you saying that I should switch to telegraph because cellphones are overused?
I can think of ten other good comparisons that also fit the bill, Hitler was just the most prominent, and I'm too lazy to try and be unique for uniqueness' sake.

[Eroc]

I think its pretty cool, hopefully it wouldn't come to actually needing it.
BTW: you are a really good artist

[Nolo]

Thank you, Eroc.

[Tarvis]

Thoughts:
You're on the right idea with the design. The libs will never get them all, but as Tremple said:
To the socialists, all guns are threatening when they're in the hands of the average citizens.
To the socialists, all guns are bad enough to be banned.

An attempt at making a battle worthy rifle that sneaks around an AWB isn't necesarily a waste of time, but the real fix to the problem is to vote for conservatives. It is beyond me why liberals would support minority groups, but be willing to throw a consitutional ammendment under the bus :banghead:.

Enough of that, on the rifle:
I think the best idea would be to stick to mass produced cartridges, namely 5.56, 7.62x51, possibly 7.62x39. 6.8 spc isn't quite big enough yet, 6.5 grendel is just sprouting, and i have no idea what .280 orion is. In the case that it is a militia-issued weapon, ammo will be eaten up quick so the most abundant is the logical choice. If you had to chose just one, which would it be? I'd have to say 6.8 spc for its ballistic qualities, despite the ammo supply. I'd think the idea would be to create a rifle that anyone can fire and make them all the same so parts can be easily exchanged upon need. Everyone issued the rifle would have the same ammo and same mags. On the same thought, this would most likely be issued to someone that doesn't already have a battle-type rifle.

[lathedog]

I really respect your effort and I like the direction you are headed with this.

I know people who are stuck in one of the hell states where you cannot buy an AR-15 or whatever similar pistol gripped semi with a detachable mag. These people would really like to be able to buy something like this today.

Choices right now are lacking. I've owned mini-14's and cannot honestly recommend them to anyone. They are what they are, don't expect them to replace a miltary rifle. The keltec 16's look like they lack the robust qualities I would like in a rifle, but I have never owned one. Maybe if they made it with a solid fixed stock.

I like the FN-49 very much, but if it were lighter and in 5.56 it would rock. Especially if it took AR mags.

SKS meets the requirements but I miss having a peep sight and detachable mags. The SKS has other minor issues such as the stock fit. The main thing the SKS seems to do is exist as a low priced competitor to a rifle such as this thread describes.

I also like the idea of something like this in 6.8, or .308, for a bit more oomph in hunting.

The bottom line for me would be military style construction similar to a M-1A or Garand or FN-49. Modular, easy to replace (or upgrade) parts, robust performance, and a very common caliber (perferably same as used by US armed forces).

Someone mentioned the Remmy autos. I like the lines of the 7400, and think the 7615 is cool, but am I the only guy thinking it would not be horrible for them to make a 7415 already? Their gas system needs much help, but for crying out loud there are several good systems they could study or copy. It's not like it is still 1930 and no one has broken the "autoloading code" yet.

[Nolo]

I think the best idea would be to stick to mass produced cartridges, namely 5.56, 7.62x51, possibly 7.62x39. 6.8 spc isn't quite big enough yet, 6.5 grendel is just sprouting, and i have no idea what .280 orion is.
Both the Grendel and SPC are there in the event that the military, however unlikely it may be, adopts them. Plus, they're just popular calibers, like .260 Remington. .280 Orion does not exist. I merely wish it did.
Choices right now are lacking. I've owned mini-14's and cannot honestly recommend them to anyone. They are what they are, don't expect them to replace a miltary rifle. The keltec 16's look like they lack the robust qualities I would like in a rifle, but I have never owned one. Maybe if they made it with a solid fixed stock.
You can get bot a rugged rifle and an accurate rifle in the same package. It won't have ultra-match accuracy, but it'll be more than battle worthy. It also won't be as reliable as an AK, but nothing is as reliable as an AK, except the AK and its assorted knockoffs. That's the reward for having no precision whatsoever.
All you have to do is say "where are the areas that most matter for accuracy?". The barrel, obviously. Put extra time and effort into the barrel. Put extra time and effort into those areas most important to accuracy, then design everything else like you want your rifle to be the most reliable thing short of an AK. It's more than just a compromise, it's smart designing.

[TeeDub]

Nice pics of an SVT-40.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa149/Nolo_photo/LynxCarbineRifle-1.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/SVT-40_1941_Izhevsk_01.jpg/800px-SVT-40_1941_Izhevsk_01.jpg

[Regolith]

.280 Orion

That would be a kickass name for a cartridge. [/geek]

[RecycledTape]

I am a frequent guest to forums, particularly THR, ive not been prompted to join until i read this post. I have been designing firearms for 3 years, mechanically and aesthetically. To address the situation regarding now, I suggest a change to the criteria regarding your rifle. In a potential civil unrest, any formed resistance will rely on the enemy for ammo and supplies. Civilian nonmilitary ammo tends to run out first.

That being said we address the need of a gun design, we can use existing guns that we have to address the prewar supply. My criteria for resistance is, if they ban anything I currently own (grandfathered or not) I will go and answer the call. Now suggestible for a country in which weapons are already banned and inaccessable, we can suggest that the person can build his own provided that the methods tools and supplies are correct.

My suggested Criteria:

Homescale production (commercial enterprises are easily targeted, hard to fund, and just a whole stache ready to be taken up by them or us, nasty)

Simple

Common Cartridge

Reliable


With that addressed the typical communist category of small arms seemingly fits that bill. However many of these weapons are already banned in many areas.

A universal easy to produce design on the homescale level using minimum tools- complex in theory, simple in application. A drill, hacksaw, and a bit of plumbing and one can produce admirable home craftsmanship.

The design basis I recommend is a carbine format - to save resources in a strained production line. The weapons locking system needs to be affiliated with the gas system to produce uniformity. I suggest a piston-bolt carrier application much like the AK, that is easy to slide out and in of the gas tube.

For interchange of cartridge using a bolt/barrel kit (produced smoothbore on a homescale level to replace obscure rifle cartridge if you did choose obscurity) Make the gas system independent in structure of the bolt and the barrel. This will allow you to change the barrel without fiddling with the gas tube.

The bolt barrel maximum should be high to accomodate more rounds and higher strengths to existing rounds.

Make the bolt carrier universal in that it can take multiple bolt sizes for different cartridges, that way you can just tilt the gun frame and switch out the bolt, for the desired cartridge ;). For the magazine well, make it like an AR and put two replaceable pins that contact the reciever so that you can switch out the well, along with a trigger group as needed. (complies with stanag to get you an SMG/carbine for all you AR buffs ;) )

All in all you can go from a full sized rifle with a long barrel and a large cartridge. Change out the stock, the caliber to that of a pistol, and a shorter barrel, and voila a subgun.

Will codesign at PM request

(wonder what would happen if you gave an AK an m16 bolt locking system, more accuracy?)

_____________________________________________________________

On another preshtf-war note. Use an existing design that is affordable, recruits will pay for lack of preparation in expedient arms :) .

Buy a few nagants and SKS's or hipoints to give your buddies.
Save the AR's and AK's for yourselves.

~Tape

[jason10mm]

What you really need to design is a bolt-action rifle that can accept a working Pedersen-type device to convert it to semi-auto. That way it will survive any semi-auto bans, can be made simply, yet can be converted to a more effective type of rifle using parts that are legal today, and impossible to trace or ban in the future.

Otherwise something like what recycledtape mentions. Sell it as a single sheet of steel with a template. Let everyone make their own. This is why the open-bolt subgun is so nice. Pistol caliber ammo is relatively low pressure and the open bolt eliminates all that complex trigger stuff. Think of it as a modern take on the liberator pistol :)

[Lonestar.45]

I don't understand the concept. Must survive multiple weapons bans? First, If there's more than one, whatever it is would probably be banned. No way to read the future either.
Second, would it survive an ammo ban, even if it survivied "multiple" weapons bans?

[Rifleman 173]

Let's make that new rifle in the new American 6.5 cartridge. The American 6.5, one that we'll dream up here and now, will have a bullet that weighs in at about 130 grains. The length of the brass will be... oh... about 43 to 45 millimeters long. Say 44 mm. So, our new round will be the 6.5 X 44. So, all of you whiz kids tell us how that new bullet, in theory, will work out. Should we change the bullet weight? The shoulders of the new cartridge should be like the present .223/5.56 cartridge or .308/7.62 NATO cartridge so that it will feed right. The present 6.5 Grendel, the barrel shape, isn't one that the military likes supposedly for feeding problems associated with it. So, we take what works and incorporate it into our designs.

[ryoushi]

I'd like to see a citizen's rifle Something you buy on your own to train with on your own. Simple birchwood stock, iron sights and 10 rd magazine. I'd like to see it chambered in someting like the .260 Remington and not weigh over 7.5 lbs.

[Nolo]

Ryoushi, look at my design. It already has many of those features, if not all.
RecycledTape, even though this rifle is aesthetically based off of many tilt-bolt lacking rifles, the Lynx's action is based most off of the AK, and can accommodate cartridges from 7.62 NATO to 7.62x39mm in length.
Second, would it survive an ammo ban, even if it survivied "multiple" weapons bans?
That is an excellent point to bring up. That's why it's chambered in "enemy" (that is, U.S. military) cartridges.
that can accept a working Pedersen-type device to convert it to semi-auto.
I think that is an excellent idea! I will begin working on it. Expect it to be based mostly off the SMLE.
Otherwise something like what recycledtape mentions. Sell it as a single sheet of steel with a template. Let everyone make their own. This is why the open-bolt subgun is so nice. Pistol caliber ammo is relatively low pressure and the open bolt eliminates all that complex trigger stuff. Think of it as a modern take on the liberator pistol
I think I could do that. But it would have similarities to the modular version, just produced post-breakout.

[RecycledTape]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Delayed_blow_back_breech_locking_rollers.svg - The image of a delayed blowback action, see the pits where the action delays itself? thats where you can make a rotating locking bolt go into place in the reciever, designed for a 60 degree turn bolt to allow fast lock and fast action, and still avail for a pederson action.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

TeeDub, check out the similarity between his drawing and an FN-49:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa149/Nolo_photo/LynxCarbineRifle-1.jpg
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/fn49_2.jpg

[Nolo]

Look, guys, I already told you that alot of the rifle is taken from other rifles, such is the way of the world. I think only Browning can seriously claim he wasn't influenced (heavily) by other makers' designs. For instance, the Garand has parts taken heavily from the French M1917.
Here's a list of all the rifles that influenced the Lynx Carbine heavily in development (some features of weapons, specifically the AK's, are internal. Others, as you have noticed, are external.):
-M1 Garand
-SVT-38 and -40
-AVS-36
-SKS
-Hakim
-AG-42 Ljungman
-Rashid
-Vz. 52 and 52/57
-SAFN-49
-M1 Carbine
-MAS-49
-Gewehr 41
-Gewehr 43
-Kbsp wz. 1938M
-Avtomat Kalashnikova
This list was developed when I started work on the project, before the first drawing of this rifle (but after the Forty-Niner, which was a near-copy of the FN-49) was ever produced.
So get off my back.
By the way, the largest resemblance in my rifle is to the Vz. 52 (action) and FN-49 (furniture). You'll find they almost exactly match. I did not plan it that way, it's just how the rifle turned out when I was finished with it. I took what I saw as the best parts and put them together. I did the insides first, then the outside. I'd always liked the FN's furniture, and I found the Vz.'s action to be an appropriate and simple design, though the internals of the Lynx's action are entirely different, far closer to an AK than any tilt-locker.

[Acheron]

Ease up on Nolo guys...he's trying his best to come up with something new that we all can own. We've reached a point in small arms development where it's really hard to come up with something entirely new (and effective). It's mostly just recycling proven designs into new packages.


I say good job. Let me know if you ever get any of your designs into production.

[Patrick_Henry]

Nolo,
Do you have more specs on how the insides of this thing work? I'd be interested in seeing other things you've incorporated into this design?

[RecycledTape]

I've codesigned with him a format of internal mechanics, we're opting on an enfield bolt action with a different frontal locking system, a more simplified bolt, and a semi automatic bolt conversion.

[Ontos]

Nolo, I like your rifle and I think your idea is correct on several levels.
Even is a new AW ban isn't put forwards in the immediate future, or is put forward but fails to pass, everyone knows that it will come up again and again. A rifle that is at least resistant to such foolishness makes a good line in the sand. If a weapon goes out of its way to be non-offensive to leftist eyes and weak nerves but they still seek to ban it, the last shred of the 'reasonable controls BS is cast aside. (certainly we all know that a limited ban isn't what they're after, but they do cling to that illusion. It would be nice to finally be able to pat the dirt over that one.)
I don't know why members have turned this into a 'guess which rifle it's based off of' contest. there is a long history of reusing good ideas in firearms design, as you've already pointed out. That said, I was glad to see that you appreciate some of the virtues of the VZ 52/57. I have one and like it a good deal.
All told, I think it's best to examine all of your options, and this idea is not a waste of time. Good job man.
The only thing I was thinking, is a convertable full-auto feature worth the bother? Ammo doesn't grow on trees for a citizen army, and most people (including me) don't have the training to control the satisfying brrrapp! of a auto rifle.

[Nolo]

I've codesigned with him a format of internal mechanics, we're opting on an enfield bolt action with a different frontal locking system, a more simplified bolt, and a semi automatic bolt conversion.
Yeah, while I still have a place in my heart for the Lynx carbine, it's usefulness has been overshadowed by the aformentioned design. We're basically taking what Jason said and running with it. It's coming along quite nicely, I must say. It'll be very effective in the role it is being assigned.
The only thing I was thinking, is a convertable full-auto feature worth the bother? Ammo doesn't grow on trees for a citizen army, and most people (including me) don't have the training to control the satisfying brrrapp! of a auto rifle.
Yeah, it is. They're not for the average person, they're to stand in for SAW gunners in the militia force. Trust me, automatic is good (at least in limited quantities).
It's mostly just recycling proven designs into new packages.
I'm happy to say that I've thought of at least one new (and actually useful) design (actual action, not just a little bit of this and that) for SAWs and GPMGs that I think will be a significant
improvement. However, I have not worked out the details yet, so that's all I'll say of it.
Do you have more specs on how the insides of this thing work? I'd be interested in seeing other things you've incorporated into this design?
I do, in my head. I've only just now got my butt into gear actually blueprinting the insides of my designs, and the only design to receive a blueprint has been an assault rifle of mine.
I will, however, list off the important features:
-Gas-operated action
-Adjustable gas system
-Rotating bolt
-Replaceable magwell system, able to receive magwells in the 57.5mm, 63.5mm, 65.0mm and 70.0mm OALs.
-Replaceable bolt head system, able to receive bolt heads in the 9.6mm, 10.0mm, 10.7mm, 11.3mm and 12.0mm diameters.
-Quick-change barrel system, able to receive barrels in the 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, 6.5x39mm, 6.8x43mm, 6.5x42mm (prop), 7x43mm (prop) and 7.62x51mm calibers.
Replaceable stock system, designed to be securely bedded in an EBR-type stock in the event of a lift of AWBs or a conflict.

[Famaldehide Face]

There is also a machine gun designed for the volksturm militia on the link below.

http://greyfalcon.us/Weapons.htm

[gvnwst]

For the magazine well, make it like an AR and put two replaceable pins that contact the reciever so that you can switch out the well, along with a trigger group as needed.

Hey, thats my idea.:D

[Golden Hound]

The new AWB has the M1 Carbine on it.

THE M1 CARBINE!

[Nolo]

The new AWB has the M1 Carbine on it.

THE M1 CARBINE!
And now we see the value of the idea...
But the new AWB isn't expected to really go anywhere, not with recent events, right?
Plus... I mean, right now there are RECORD AR-15 owners.
I can hardly imagine them just lying down for such a ban.

[cbrgator]

It's not about lying down. It's about a Democratic Congress and what might be a Democratic president.

[Nolo]

It's not about lying down. It's about a Democratic Congress and what might be a Democratic president.
To be quite blunt about it, none of those individuals are immune to bullets.
If you get us pissed enough, the fact that we have far more guns than they do will matter. Whether it's by shots fired, or the potential for shots to be fired.
Would they try legislation? Possibly. But they'd find that things wouldn't go very smoothly for them afterward, methinks.

[Loomis]

Hey nolo, I totally love the idea. It shouldn't be limited to americans only. Think canada, europe, australia, south america, etc.

Here's a couple suggestions from me...

1. lose the upper forestock
2. sell it with a cheapo tasco scope mounted on it...makes it less assault weapon-ish
3. sell it with a tiny 3 round magazine.

[Nolo]

Good ideas, Loomis. However, I have pretty much moved onto another design. But those ideas are still applicable there.

[Dr. Fresh]

What about a hi-capacity variant of the Winchester 1895 in .308? Maybe with detachable 20-round mags? It's a lever-action, so it's PC, and with 5-round mags would look nonthreatening. I don't know if this would work, though. I don't know enough about the mechanics of the rifle.

EDIT: Heh, the lever would hit the mag, wouldn't it? :-S

[sarduy]

srd-1 and srd-2

[ziggy222]

1st off,even thinking about designing a gun the antigunners would aproove of is enough to may me sick.2nd,and this is more important,there will be no fighting.we will slowly give our gun rights away.it will happen some day.then food will be taken away and only the elite and their servants will be left.look up executive orders on wikipedia.the constitutions already been overpowered by the new executive orders.they just have'nt used them yet.no one seems to care though.you wanna fight someone?become more aware of politics and law and open others eyes to whats going on.

[Nolo]

1st off,even thinking about designing a gun the antigunners would aproove of is enough to may me sick.2nd,and this is more important,there will be no fighting.we will slowly give our gun rights away.it will happen some day.then food will be taken away and only the elite and their servants will be left.look up executive orders on wikipedia.the constitutions already been overpowered by the new executive orders.they just have'nt used them yet.no one seems to care though.you wanna fight someone?become more aware of politics and law and open others eyes to whats going on.
I am currently involved in a campaign for a libertarian representative in Congress, and I offer to take everyone I meet to the range. I have four takers who are currently getting impatient.
What more do you want me to do?
srd-1 and srd-2
They already have those:
It's called the SIG 556.
And those hardly fill the criterion for this concept.

[ziggy222]

sorry,i guess i kinda jumped on you.the gun does look nice.i just don't think guns are going to help us much if the shtf.if you have a gun,i guess you can take a few with you,or kill someone that killed your family to get even before your wiped out.i just think awareness will go alot farther towards delaying it.

[Nolo]

sorry,i guess i kinda jumped on you.the gun does look nice.i just don't think guns are going to help us much if the shtf.if you have a gun,i guess you can take a few with you,or kill someone that killed your family to get even before your wiped out.i just think awareness will go alot farther towards delaying it.
Really, you underestimate what a determined, populous, armed group of folks can do.
And I am aware. And active. This is an insurance policy.
And thank you for you apology. It takes a cool head and guts to say that.

[Still 2 Many Choices!?]

I like the mag-fed lever gun idea. A crafty designer(maybe even an average one)could figure a way to make the MAGAZINE, INTO THE LEVER. Im going to have to play with that idea :) .

[Dr. Fresh]

You mean move the entire mag to cycle the action? That's a lot of weight.

[mosinmadness]

malitia mens rifle, an sks in .308. Feed by dtachable magazines 10- 15 rds to keep the weight down. thick rigid recivers, and synthetic bedded stocks

[ziggy222]

you would be better off going the route of the sniper rifle and stay away from the 308 round.if the shtf it will be the hardest round to get,followed by anything that needs to be imported into this country like the 7.62x39.223rem will always be around and rounds like 222,22-250-243,7-08,30-06,30-30,you get the idea.remember the original malitia was all snipers.oh and the 12 guage pump,it strikes terror and people don't need alot of practice.

[556A2]

The SKS, Mini-14, M1A, and Saiga are close enough.

[mosinmadness]

im gonna get flamed for this but the m1a is a pos. they shoot very well but mud or rain and they die.

[Goblin]

Do you guys remember the H&K SL-6\7.It met those reqmts. I'll go look for a pic!!!

Here it is!
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q109/epstanton/sl71.jpg

[amprecon]

mosinmadness, yeah, your probably gonna get flamed for that statement, cause it's B.S.

[jordan1948]

How about a Browning or Remington auto-loader with hi-cap mags, they're intended for huinting but slap on a hi-cap mag and synthetic stock and it's an assault rifle, btw awesome sketches and I'll have to keep a look out for these in the future

[jordan1948]

Remington 700 modified to take a modified M1A mag, you could do this with the autoloader

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs9nDWcoIq0

[mr.trooper]

i think the NRA edition Mini-14 is about as close as you can get. With Rugers current magazine offer, you can have a 16" barrel mini, and 5 20 round factory magazines for less than $800. The extra $200+ you save over an AR would put a good dent in an ammo stockpile.

[jordan1948]

True but it sounds to me like Nolo wants to move away from the .223

[Solsys]

If we're talking about a rifle that is going to be produced in peacetime, warehoused and then distributed to conscripts / militiamen, then the AK has been designed specifically for this.

Goverment-issue "Citizen Rifle"

What I understand under "Citizen Rifle" is a rifle that would be considered "unalienable", a rifle that every US citizen would have the right to possess so as to respect the Second Amendment - and thus would enable to get rid of THE REST OF THEM, of course.

True citizens are not letting any government dictate them how much force they ought to have, so let's imagine a rifle from the government's point of view, then.

Any strong government dislikes citizens too powerful to overthrow it. This means the weapons should not be able to provide its user with a high rate of fire, for instance. e.g. Exit semi-auto.

Too light a round is not good as it enables each citizen to carry more of them. A heavy round means less ammo carried, especially in the hazardous logistics of a civil war / insurrection etc. Similarly, it must not have a military caliber, so insurgents won't be able to use captured ammo. Anything less than a .270 would not be accepted, if only because of the hunters.

So we down to, basically, a hunting rifle.

I come from France, and I can tell you that's just how much rifle you can buy without asking for a special authorisation from the county. But a lot of people have such authorisation, and a lot of french shooters have AR-15. But these are to be in the custody of the police in case of a state of emergency - and the hunting rifles, less so.

Still, the hunting rifle has its niche, in harassing techniques, sniping etc., but it requires trained shooters. Hence, few insurgents would be able to concentrate enough firepower with it to pose an immediate threat to the State.

Franc-Tireur Rifle

In 1870 the french army was meant to be supplemented by patriotic shooters, who would form a sort of milita, armed with their own weapons. These groups were called "Francs-Tireurs" and had a limited effect on the war, mainly due to the poor discipline of some of them. Nevertheless the Prussians went completely hysterical over them, and it's with the "Francs-Tireurs" in mind that the Laws of War regarding partisans (necessity to have a recognition symbol etc.) were made.

If we we to devise a "Citizen Rifle" that would be used by a "Francs-Tireurs" system in the US, then it could be a different rifle than the hunting rifle above.

In such a system, the Franc-Tireur has to purchase his own weapon and uniform, and practicaly, he has to bring his own ammo with him. A lot of Franc-Tireur had non-standard weapons and calibers, just like we would.

In this "voluntarily conscript" system, we would go closer to the AK again, but without the logistics of vast conscript armies like the soviet one, meaning "spray and pray" as well as suppressive fire techniques would not be appropriate. Given the relatively poor training and fitness of the Francs-Tireurs (when compared to a soldier), their rules of engagement should not be the same, especially regarding the range of engagement.

Hence, we could indeed contemplate the use of the .308 cartridge, which has a longer range than .223. .308 is already popular as a hunting caliber, so it is generally available, and occasional resupply could be done by the regular army as well.

In our time, scopes are no longer a luxury, and should evidently be installed on such a rifle, because of its long-range use.

The Franc-Tireur would then be a sort of marksman (not unlike the french "Chasseur" of the same 1870-1871 war) capabale of supporting regular troops or to be used in delaying the enemy, harassment, and general partisan warfare.

Weapons in this category would be the Zastava M76, scoped M14, MAS 49/56 etc.

My personal note would be to make it in a bullpup configuration, because urban combat is going to be the main form of combat (with more than half of the human population living in cities), but it requires additional training, so a traditional configuration would be better suited for all.

ADD to EDIT : Because of the affordability issue, it would be Saiga .308 with a fixed-magnification scope.

[RP88]

that gun you drew is semi-auto, and takes a detachable mag. It's already banned in a liberal world without being specifically named.

Think of it like this: If SKS is banned, then so is anything else like it or better

Your only bet would be something like your lever-actions and bolt rifles. Hell, if they accomplish a permenant ban on EBRs, then you can bet the next thing will be to further restrict ammo capacities to the point where a rifled musket would be as good as any choice to have in the next battle for the US.

[seeker_two]

If the gun-banners get their way, then this discussion is moot.....and the rifle we'll need will be whatever the military/police are using....because we'll have to "obtain" them from those sources.... ;)

[Nolo]

Really, the best bet is the modular bolt action described earlier.
A Pedersen-like replaceable semiauto bolt would allow a rifle looking no more threatening than a Winchester Model 70 (Evil Sniper Assault Rifle label notwithstanding), yet be able to convert easily into something like a BAR, a SAW or an assault rifle. All based on the same set of interchangeable parts.

[Sam]

You would be better served learning the route to your representatives district office and paying him regular visits, likewise your Senator.
Do not suit your designs to meet the whims of your legislator, change teh legislator.

If his/her staffers don't know who you are, you aren't doing it right or often enough.

Sam

[Nolo]

You would be better served learning the route to your representatives district office and paying him regular visits, likewise your Senator.
Do not suit your designs to meet the whims of your legislator, change teh legislator.

If his/her staffers don't know who you are, you aren't doing it right or often enough.

Sam
Hahahahahahahaha!!!!
You've obviously never met Steny Hoyer! :D
I have addressed this before. I am active in politics.
Seriously, though, Steny won't hear anything. He's is about as deaf ears as it comes. Thus, I have been active in a campaign to unseat him.

[Sam]

Continue working to unseat him.

When was the last time you took a stroll by Steny's house?
Do not call, do not email, GO THERE. Libtards love it when you are just a faceless name. You can be ignored easily but they lack any courage at all when you are in their face. They $#!t britches when you make it personal.

As nice as it is to get them defeated in elections it is even better when you make the job so taxing that they just quit.:evil:

Sam

[MyRoad]

I was after something similar, of course I was not building from the ground up so I had to start with an existing platform. I did not get the box magazine I would have preferred, and I did require a low-power (4x) scope that could be used in a addition to the iron sights, in this case a ghost ring rear.

Not a great picture, but you can get the idea. It started as a Yugo, so I had the grenade launcher and bayonet removed, then added the synthetic stock, the rear sight, had a Choate scope mount drilled and tapped, and added the short mag scope. Also had a trigger job done. Biggest pitfalls of this rifle IMO: not a chrome lined barrel, not box-magazine fed, and its heavier than it needs to be.

In the end I think it does accomplish the goal of being a rugged reliable sport rifle, good for hunting or personal defense.

http://www.xlr8nrg.com/images/sks_sport.jpg

It's not a complete match to your criteria, but similar enough in concept that I thought it might be interesting. Its basically a "de-militerized" rifle, or in other words, "sporterized" military rifle. For a ground up build, I go back and forth between x39 and .308. When pushed to choose an "if I could only have one" caliber, I lean towards .308, but if its not my only rifle and I were looking for a "handy versatile rifle" for my local woods, I would gravitate towards x39.

[gvnwst]

Nice looking rifle there MyRoad.

[Wolfgang2000]

MyRoad,
Can you still use stripper clips with the scope installed?

I've done something similar. I started with a Chi-Com SKS carbine (16"barrel) a Choate stock and a ATI scope mount that is drilled and tapped. I put a discontinued Simmons 1.5 to 5 scope on it. I fixed it so I could still use stripper clips even though the eye relief is a tad short.

The 16" barrel really makes it handy in the brush.

[ccsniper]

so is this rifle actually going to ever go into production? if so i want a rifle that can be easily changed into 7.62x51 and 7.62x39. i like the idea.

[JImbothefiveth]

A ban-proof semi-auto low cost rifle, that can transition between 7.62x51 and 7.62x39, with at least a 10-round magazine? That sounds pretty good to me! You might want to make sure it's modifiable to use en-bloc clips, instead of fixed magazines, for better reloading speed.

BTW what is with this "the citizen's" trend? We have the Citizen's rifle, the Citizen's machine gun, and I think the "Citizen's jetpack" thread was deleted.

[JImbothefiveth]

What about a hi-capacity variant of the Winchester 1895 in .308? Maybe with detachable 20-round mags? It's a lever-action, so it's PC, and with 5-round mags would look nonthreatening. I don't know if this would work, though. I don't know enough about the mechanics of the rifle.

EDIT: Heh, the lever would hit the mag, wouldn't it? :-S

What about a pump-action?

[Nolo]

BTW what is with this "the citizen's" trend? We have the Citizen's rifle, the Citizen's machine gun, and I think the "Citizen's jetpack" thread was deleted.
The "Citizens Jetpack" thread was making fun of the "Citizen's Machine Gun" thread, which may or may not have been making fun of this thread.
I am very confused by them as well.
Kinda immature to make fun of other people's ideas, especially if they aren't wildly impractical.
The "citizen's rifle" concept is interesting, but it may be moot. I honestly don't know whether it would do any good.
However, the aspect of incredible modularity is an interesting one, and that I am exploring pretty deeply. Even for standard military action, having common parts between ALL your small arms is attractive.

[MyRoad]

Can you still use stripper clips with the scope installed?

No, I lost that capability. There were going to be compromises, that's one I made.

It would be possible with a different optic - most likely a red dot - to retain the ability to use stripper clips.

[JImbothefiveth]

Too bad they got rid of the jetpack one, I thought it was pretty funny.

Kinda immature to make fun of other people's ideas, especially if they aren't wildly impractical.
The "citizen's rifle" concept is interesting, but it may be moot.
The rifle the OP of this thread described is very interesting, as I said earlier, and I wouldn't mind buying one myself, especially with all the modularity mentioned, if it was reasonably priced.
Has he considered an AR with wood furniture that does not have that really high aperture sight?
(I like it for civilian uses, however, and I think the OP intended it for militia use.)

[jordan1948]

There's a pump action rifle made right now that accepts AR-15 mags if only I could remember what company makes them.


Got it. It's the Remington 7615. It only comes chambered in .223 though but like most firearms you could just make a larger version that accepts AR-10 mags and chamber it in 7.62NATO.

[NonConformist]

Reminds me a German G43 rifle, and all the offspring and copies thereof-

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i205/NonC/g43-01.jpg

Also looks like the later HK SL6/7

[gvnwst]

I like it for civilian uses, however, and I think the OP intended it for militia use

With this kind of modularity, it would kick butt at both.

[NonConformist]

(I like it for civilian uses, however, and I think the OP intended it for militia use.)


The 'civilian' populace IS the 'Militia'! :)

[Dr. Fresh]

Actually, the Remington 7615 would totally work.

[gvnwst]

Quote:
(I like it for civilian uses, however, and I think the OP intended it for militia use.)


The 'civilian' populace IS the 'Militia'!


I think he meant "sporting uses", i said about the same thing, thats what i ment...

[Nolo]

Actually, the Remington 7615 would totally work.
'Cept you can't change calibers, can't change configurations, can't make a machine gun out of it, etc.
I think I illustrated my OpCon pretty well earlier, but maybe not.
I may make a post outlining the role and requirements, here goes:

[Nolo]

PLEASE READ THIS POST
Citizens' Rifle
Task: Provide modern military small arms weaponry to a civilian populace beset by classic "Assault Weapon" bans (esp. HR 1022) in a legal, or not overtly illegal manner.
Purpose: To ensure the survival of an effectively armed populace under the effective repeal of the 2nd Amendment
Requirements:
-Weapon must be sold as a bolt-action firearm
-Weapon must be sold at prices that make it the market leader. Profit loss is a non-issue.
-Weapon must be simple and cheap to manufacture. Machined parts are to be kept to a minimum.
-Weapon must be able to be converted into each of the following modes: Semi-automatic, fully automatic closed bolt, fully automatic open bolt, blowback.
-Weapon must be able to, with the proper parts set, chamber and fire the following cartridges: 5.56x45mm NATO/.223Remington, 7.62x51mm NATO/.308 Winchester, 9x19mm Parabellum NATO, .45 Automatic Colt Pistol, 7.62x39mm Soviet, .22 Long Rifle. Ability to chamber and fire other common cartridges is also preferred.
-Weapon must be able to exchange barrels instantaneously and without tools.
-Weapon must be able to accept different length and style stocks, and must have adaptors for both AR-15 stocks and AK-47 stocks.
-Weapon must LACK a bayonet lug on marketed barrels.
-Weapon must LACK a flash hider/compensator on marketed barrels.
-Weapon must be able to accept standard (20 or 30 rounds) and high (40+ rounds) magazines.
-Weapon must be be able to accept units that convert it to feed 5.56 NATO and 7.62 NATO standard ammunition belts.
Potential solutions:
Utilizing the a redesigned frame of the MAS-36 rifle as well as a significantly redesigned and modified Pedersen Device, a rifle could be built for optimum modularity and flexibility. Such a weapon could be continuously marketed as a standard bolt action rifle in the $300-$400 dollar range (2008 USD) with the ability to easily change calibers. Exchangeable parts should include magazine well, barrel, receiver plate, bolt, bolt head, and stocks.
Such a weapon would be highly resistant to anti-"Assault Weapon" bans and legislation.
In order to maintain the integrity of the plan, the extra parts necessary for conversion to a military weapon must be kept secret and private. THESE PARTS CANNOT BE PUT ON MARKET, EVEN IF ALLOWED BY LAW! The entire goal of the system is lost if legislators' attention is turned to this rifle.

[Dr. Fresh]

I wasn't saying it fit your requirements. Just saying it's PC enough to escape some bans, but still takes AR mags.

[jordan1948]

And like I suggested you could make one chambered in .308 and just use AR-10 mags, also even if you can't make a machine gun out of it you could still probably make it semi-auto which would give you a higher ROF than pump action

[NonConformist]

Dont let the naysayers keep you down, run w/ it!

[Nolo]

I wasn't saying it fit your requirements. Just saying it's PC enough to escape some bans, but still takes AR mags.
That post wasn't addressing you. I forgot to post earlier that I think that's neat. It's a good looking rifle.
The post was addressing people who were asking me why I copied the FN-49 and who were criticizing me for "giving in to the antis".
Right. I has provision for full-auto, and it's giving into the antis. :rolleyes:
Seriously, good rifle.

[JShirley]

You're getting too complicated. A better solution than the ULTIMATE! Modular Action Rifle would be 2 or 3 rifles for the citizen to choose from. Making an inexpensive and reliable semi-auto would be simpler than making an inexpensive but dependable wonder-rifle that turns into a truck and a robot and Santa's sleigh.

I think a CZ-527, slightly redesigned to reduce complexity and cost, would be just about the perfect do-everything rifle (or, as close as we can come in the real world). In 6.5x39 or 6.8x43mm, it would work just fine for big game and medium-long shots, too.

John

[Nolo]

You're getting too complicated. A better solution than the ULTIMATE! Modular Action Rifle would be 2 or 3 rifles for the citizen to choose from. Making an inexpensive and reliable semi-auto would be simpler than making an inexpensive but dependable wonder-rifle that turns into a truck and a robot and Santa's sleigh.

I think a CZ-527, slightly redesigned to reduce complexity and cost, would be just about the perfect do-everything rifle. In 6.5x39 or 6.8x43mm, it would work just fine for big game and medium-long shots, too.
JShirley, who said anything about big game?
This is a military rifle. It is designed, in the event that such action is needed, to be able to combat a military force. Possibly our own military force.
While we could take the government with bolt action rifles, a weapon such as this would help improve our chances.
Task: Provide modern military small arms weaponry to a civilian populace beset by classic "Assault Weapon" bans (esp. HR 1022) in a legal, or not overtly illegal manner.
Purpose: To ensure the survival of an effectively armed populace under the effective repeal of the 2nd Amendment

[goon]

Questions:
If the necessary parts to convert these fictional bolt action rifles to semi-auto aren't ever to be placed on the market, even if they are legal, how is the civilian population supposed to acquire them?
If they're meant to be stored at distribution points and passed out in the event that things really deteriorate, who will be in charge of deciding when to pass them out?
Who will pay to make these conversion units?

Not trying to dissuade you and this may have been covered already - I didn't read the whole thread, but I'd think this is as important of a consideration as the actual design.

[Nolo]

Questions:
If the necessary parts to convert these fictional bolt action rifles to semi-auto aren't ever to be placed on the market, even if they are legal, how is the civilian population supposed to acquire them?
A devoted firearm company would hold them until needed, as you guessed below.
If they're meant to be stored at distribution points and passed out in the event that things really deteriorate, who will be in charge of deciding when to pass them out? The aforementioned company would be in charge. Who would head that company? There are two likely candidates: no one, and me.
Who will pay to make these conversion units?
Again, no one, or me.

Not trying to dissuade you and this may have been covered already - I didn't read the whole thread, but I'd think this is as important of a consideration as the actual design.
You aren't. I am well aware of the financial implications. Which is why I intend to be fabulously wealthy when I am older. Should I not become wealthy, this, and many other projects, would become moot.

[JShirley]

JShirley, who said anything about big game?

Note the too.

a weapon such as this would help improve our chances

1. This is (your) opinion only.

2. Convincing everyone to buy your rifle will be at least as great a challenge as designing and making it. Making the design useful for other things will assist in this greatly. Combat rifle? Eh. Useful and handy hunting carbine for a bargain price? Sold. AS I MENTIONED, having several useful designs available in several different configurations and price points is a better strategy. Then the riot nerds can have their dedicated When-The-Robot-Ninja Bears-Come rifle for $2500, and others can have a neat little rifle for $290.

John

[Nolo]

1. This is (your) opinion only.

2. Convincing everyone to buy your rifle will be at least as great a challenge as designing and making it. Making the design useful for other things will assist in this greatly. Combat rifle? Eh. Useful and handy hunting carbine for a bargain price? Sold. AS I MENTIONED, having several useful designs available in several different configurations and price points is a better strategy. Then the riot nerds can have their dedicated When-The-Robot-Ninja Bears-Come rifle for $2500, and others can have a neat little rifle for $290.
Uhhh... I think it would help our chances. There's a reason modern militaries don't use bolt guns anymore...
:uhoh:
Also, recall:
Such a weapon could be continuously marketed as a standard bolt action rifle in the $300-$400 dollar range (2008 USD) with the ability to easily change calibers.
Tell me that isn't attractive.
Someone who is determined enough and wealthy enough would certainly be able to take a profit loss on the rifles. Costs $500 to make one? Sell for $350 anyway.
Making the design useful for other things will assist in this greatly.
Where'd you get that it wouldn't be useful for anything else? It's disguised as a "sporting rifle" anyway.
AS I MENTIONED, having several useful designs available in several different configurations and price points is a better strategy.
I don't see how that strategy is any different than the one that I am proposing. The only parts I am witholding are the ones that make it "evil", all the caliber configuration parts would be marketed.

[Prod]

Honestly, I think the M1 Garand is about the best rifle to own. It's semi, doesn't really have any evil features, looks like a hunting rifle, and .30-06 is a very common and useful round. Reloading a Garand is faster than reloading a detachable mag as well.

[goon]

So...
If a patriotic gun company is going to be hanging on to the conversion parts and keeping them squirreled away in a secret location from which they will only be released in the event of open war or totalitarian regime, why not use that effort to just lock away a bunch of "real" guns?
Why not manufacture individual gun parts in your production facilities and then have committed patriots assemble them in secret, then store those now finished firearms in your bunkers?
I don't know about the costs associated with converting a bolt action to semi-auto but I wonder if it wouldn't be cheaper and easier to just come up with some sort of polymer and stamped PDW type weapon that can accept a suppressor and optics and has an effective range of about 200 yard.
The P-90 uses a straight blowback system, doesn't it? (been awhile since I've read about them), Maybe come up with something along those lines only utterly, crudely, spot-welded and pinned together simple.
Think of a Liberator on steroids and maybe you'll get a mental image of what I'm picturing. :)

It does have couple strong points:
1. Could be made utterly simply. Look to the Sten or Soviet SMG's for inspiration. It should be simpler to produce than something firing a more powerful cartridge because you can omit a locking mechanism and engineer it to fire from an open bolt with the firing pin just machined into the bolt face.
2. No foresight on the part of the owner is necessary. For the current idea to work, a bunch of guys who would actually potentially use their rifles to oppose a dictator have to buy one of your rifles. No special rifle made by your company = no easily converted weapon. And since they're sitting around planning to keep their AK's and AR's, why would they buy your bolt action? So they can convert it later... But not if no one is telling them that there is a plan in the works to allow these rifles to be converted to military style weapons later.
Seems like kind of a Catch 22.
3. More immune to any law or confiscation. Your secret bunkers are secret and so is what's in them. Just seems that if your going to go to such lengths to keep your conversion parts a secret, why not hide a whole gun? Then if a total ban ever were passed, all the sporting rifles in the nation could be confiscated and destroyed and you'd still have something.
4. Angry populace needs weapons - OK, great!
Now what do we arm them with?
Well... These guys were OK with the gov't. right up until the "agents of the state can rape you, your wife, and your kids any time they want" act. As such, they didn't feel the need to own a gun so they didn't buy one of your rifles. Now, they're willing to take up arms.
Would you rather be passing out conversion kits to guns they don't own or simple little SMG's or carbines that any buffoon can learn to use in ten minutes or less?

Don't get me wrong here - your reasons for trying to work this out are admirable. I actually kind of hope there are some extremely wealthy patriots out there stashing weapons right now in case the need for them should ever arise.
And my points might not even make much sense at all when I read this thread again in the morning.
Just some random thoughts...
Hope you can think of a way past them.

[Nolo]

So...
If a patriotic gun company is going to be hanging on to the conversion parts and keeping them squirreled away in a secret location from which they will only be released in the event of open war or totalitarian regime, why not use that effort to just lock away a bunch of "real" guns?
I have thought the very same thing myself. I have proceeded with the design despite a satisfying answer either way. The best rationale I have is that this method is less likely to get me thrown in jail.
Why not manufacture individual gun parts in your production facilities and then have committed patriots assemble them in secret, then store those now finished firearms in your bunkers?
See above.
I don't know about the costs associated with converting a bolt action to semi-auto but I wonder if it wouldn't be cheaper and easier to just come up with some sort of polymer and stamped PDW type weapon that can accept a suppressor and optics and has an effective range of about 200 yard.
The P-90 uses a straight blowback system, doesn't it? (been awhile since I've read about them), Maybe come up with something along those lines only utterly, crudely, spot-welded and pinned together simple.
Think of a Liberator on steroids and maybe you'll get a mental image of what I'm picturing.
I am not sure that, once all the development is done, it will be all that complex.
It does have couple strong points:
1. Could be made utterly simply. Look to the Sten or Soviet SMG's for inspiration. It should be simpler to produce than something firing a more powerful cartridge because you can omit a locking mechanism and engineer it to fire from an open bolt with the firing pin just machined into the bolt face.
2. No foresight on the part of the owner is necessary.
You could do that with a space-delayed blowback gun in, say, 5.56 NATO. No need for a PDW. Of course, you couldn't do it in the standard cartridge, a new cartridge would be needed.
For the current idea to work, a bunch of guys who would actually potentially use their rifles to oppose a dictator have to buy one of your rifles. No special rifle made by your company = no easily converted weapon. And since they're sitting around planning to keep their AK's and AR's, why would they buy your bolt action? So they can convert it later... But not if no one is telling them that there is a plan in the works to allow these rifles to be converted to military style weapons later.
Seems like kind of a Catch 22.
Millions of people own Mosins. Why? They are a great value. Same principle applies here. The market can distribute these rifles much better than I ever could.
3. More immune to any law or confiscation. Your secret bunkers are secret and so is what's in them. Those weapons don't exist on any paperwork anywhere so presumably, even if there were a mass confiscation, no one would know to look for them. For the other idea to work, the rifles would have to slide past any ban. Personally, I don't think a totalitarian regime would want any of us armed with anything, even if it is only a bolt action.
4. Angry populace needs weapons - OK, great!
Now what do we arm them with?
Well... These guys were OK with the gov't. right up until the "agents of the state can rape you, your wife, and your kids any time they want" act. As such, they didn't feel the need to own a gun so they didn't buy one of your rifles. Now, they're willing to take up arms.
Would you rather be passing out conversion kits to guns they don't own or simple little SMG's or carbines that any buffoon can learn to hose down the street with in ten minutes or less?
Both. You assume the plans are exclusive. Another project of mine, the "Partisan" is exactly what you described. It has since gone from an SMG to an assault rifle.
Don't get me wrong here - your reasons for trying to work this out are admirable. I actually kind of hope there are some extremely wealthy patriots out there stashing weapons right now in case the need for them should ever arise.
And my points might not even make much sense at all when I read this thread again in the morning.
Just some random thoughts...
Hope you can think of a way past them.
Your points are very good, and I was waiting for someone to bring them up.
Maybe Ronnie Barrett is...

[JImbothefiveth]

The 'civilian' populace IS the 'Militia'!
Kind of like gvnwst said, by "civilian use" I meant hunting, target shooting, and home defense. The militia may be the civilian populace, but fighting against foreign invaders is not what I consider "civilian purposes".


Combat rifle? Eh. Useful and handy hunting carbine for a bargain price? Sold.
Exactly! I wouldn't buy the bolt-action version(not a big bolt action fan) but an inexpensive, semi-auto that can easily and cheaply change calibers, with reliable 20-30 round magazines to be had for each caliber,(Well, now it's starting to sound like an AR.) that doesn't have that "tacticool evil black rifle" look?
Sold!
I myself had sort of been wanting something along those lines for awhile now, but the best I could come up with was maybe an AR-15 with wood furniture, or the right paint job.

[goon]

Another project of mine, the "Partisan" is exactly what you described. It has since gone from an SMG to an assault rifle.


Aha!
In that case, I think the AR-18 was originally designed to be a 5.56mm rifle that could be put into production with a minimum of machining necessary.
Maybe with a little updating...

[Nolo]

Aha!
In that case, I think the AR-18 was originally designed to be a 5.56mm rifle that could be put into production with a minimum of machining necessary.
Maybe with a little updating...
Actually, I was going along the lines of a STEN in a modified 5.56mm.
Or what would essentially end up as an HK33.

[Deer Hunter]

Wouldn't a "citizen" rifle be a rifle owned by a citizen?

;)

[Renwyn]

If any of these ideas get out of the design phase, you let me know, alright? BTW, that 'Lynx' carbine looks awesome! :D I wish that the muzzle end was a suppressor, but that wouldn't exactly survive numerous bans. :D