CCW Instructor's Action Invalidate Permit?


PDA






rjohnson4405
April 18, 2008, 08:55 PM
My friend took his concealed carry course with an instructor here in Ohio and we aren't sure he exactly followed the course requirements.

There was a test, but it was taken with the students to lunch and open book (even highlighted answers).

Also, there was range time but proficiency was never really measured.

So, my questions are these:

1. Are these actions against the law/requirements for CCW in Ohio?
- We talked to some people about it but they weren't completely sure. They viewed these as unethical but couldn't decide if it was legal or not.

2. If so, can the instructor's action render student CCW licenses invalid for improper instruction or something?

Thanks in advance!

If you enjoyed reading about "CCW Instructor's Action Invalidate Permit?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
misANTHrope
April 18, 2008, 10:54 PM
I don't know about OH, but here in TN I understand that if a school is busted for not fulfilling the course requirements, the state can revoke the permit of every former student. My course was questionable in some regards, but I'm keeping my mouth shut.

mekender
April 18, 2008, 11:26 PM
it can happen in NC too...

Kentak
April 19, 2008, 12:11 AM
Sounds like someone is trying to make an easy buck at the expense of teaching what the law requires and cheating their students out of the knowledge and skills they paid for and deserve.

I was fortunate that my instructor in central Ohio was top notch and very conscientious.

K

TheBluesMan
April 19, 2008, 12:29 AM
I've attached a .pdf that spells out exactly what is necessary regarding concealed carry training in the State of Ohio. This document is from the Ohio Attorney General.

If you are in doubt as to whether the instructor is legit, feel free to contact the county sheriff or the NRA (If the instructor is NRA certified.)

I hope this helps. :)

Linda
April 19, 2008, 12:29 AM
Most instructors I know, do an open book test. Perfectly legal. There is nothing in the law saying it can not be open book.

How do you know the instructor was not measuring proficency? I guess I'd like to know more about the situation than just this statement. Sure, if you've got a student shooting up the walls or ceiling of the range, there should be serious issues.

boggyboy72
April 19, 2008, 12:57 AM
Will you give the name of the class?Just want to see if it's the one I went to.

SomeKid
April 19, 2008, 02:56 AM
anthro,

I may have missed that, where in the law does it allow permits to be revoked because of instructor incompetence later?

misANTHrope
April 19, 2008, 04:54 AM
I really have no idea where it might be in the law... I'm basing this on a discussion over at TGO, where it was said that students would be required to retake the course at their own cost and could have their permits revoked. It's basically hearsay, but it wouldn't surprise me at all for this to be the case...

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6056

WayneConrad
April 19, 2008, 06:36 AM
SomeKid, If it does exists in the law, it's likely to be case law, not something you'll find in the statutes.

SomeKid
April 19, 2008, 07:13 AM
That is what I expected, I just read the entire section on suspension/revocation of permits. Nowhere does it list any reason for an instructor issue to be grounds for suspension/revocation of an existing permit.

For those interested, 39-17-1352 is the relevant statute.

http://www.michie.com/tennessee/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&cp=tncode

Wayne, I highly doubt it came from there.

All that said, laws can be twisted. There may be some grounds or route they can use through the maze of laws I am unaware of. IANAL and all that. It is an interesting question, though I don't think they have a legal leg to stand on.

Linda
April 19, 2008, 07:55 AM
I licensee could have their license suspended if it was learned the instructor was not teaching a 12 hour course. We've heard of many who are taking money and significantly cutting off many hours off the class.:fire: Per law, it is 10 hours classroom plus 2 hours range. If you hear of such, turn them in.

Also, there was a case that surfaced up in NE Ohio a year or so back that the instructor only used air soft guns for range time. (we often wondered if it may be that the instructor himself was not allowed to posess handguns???)That's a huge disqualifier. There were about 100 people who had their licenses suspended over that one.

If it don't feel right, it probably isn't.

Don Gwinn
April 19, 2008, 10:41 AM
So, as per Linda, the answer is that if the instructor violated the requirements, then yes, your permit can be revoked for that reason.

The remaining question is whether your instructor met the requirements. It sounds like open-book tests and fairly freewheeling range time could still meet the requirements.

Obviously, that's not very rigorous training, so maybe in your case it depends more on what you were after. If you wanted this course for the training value, and not just to check a box so you could get the permit, then it sounds like you feel you were shorted whether the law agrees or not.

Not much you can do about that now except tailor your recommendations to prospective students accordingly and go take a course designed to be rigorous training.
Sorry.

tntwatt
April 19, 2008, 10:49 AM
In reading the file provided by TheBluesMan, it says you must demonstrate competancy in safe handling, not proficiency in hitting your target. It also says that the training methods pass/fail as determined by the sherrif.

mtnmedic11
April 19, 2008, 10:53 AM
I took one in MA and the guy was to the letter! He was crazy, dont get me wrong, but a few people failed and had to take it over again...maybe thats just because it was in MA

rjohnson4405
April 19, 2008, 01:12 PM
Boggy,

The instructor was in Bellbrook, if you still want his name, I'll PM you.

Measuring proficiency wasn't really possible in that multiple people were shooting at the same target at 25 yards. Who had what hits would've been impossible to determine.

So far the answer is: It has happened that they were revoked, but the training methods acceptability is up to the sheriff? So as long as he signed off on it, it's valid?

Linda
April 20, 2008, 10:17 AM
25 yards

25 yards or 25 feet? 25 yards would be an insane distance for basic pistol.

The sheriff's dept. would have no idea if the training was adequet or not, unless the instructor was ratted out by someone. Then there would be an investigation, and most likely, all this guys former students would be revoked/suspended.

It burns me when I hear of instructors cutting serious corners with their students. :fire: They need to be turned in and have their NRA instructor creditials stripped from them forever. It puts those of us who are going above and beyond the requirements, in a bad light as well.

In Ohio, we have a 12 hour training requirement. I hear there are instructors out there who are only teaching the NRA's basic pistol course. Nothing more/nothing less. I think those instructors are doing their students a huge disservice in not taking the class to the next step and instructing a TRUE concealed carry class. If they are not giving any mindset, or going over the laws, or adding holster selection to their classes, they are not giving their students the full benefit of learning "how" to conceal carry. I talked to one "instructor" last week who only teaches basic pistol and he told me ALL of their shooting is from the benchrest position. :banghead: I had to wonder to myself: what is it that his students are taking away from that class that has taught them how to conceal carry?

rjohnson4405
April 20, 2008, 03:36 PM
25 yards, I'm sure, there is no shorter distance at the range he uses. I agree it's a huge disservice which is why I'm using someone else other than him.

TechAlG
April 20, 2008, 03:47 PM
Linda -- Being new to Ohio, and searching for a good class, would you be willing to recommend some? I am worried about paying for a class and having it be the NRA Basic Pistol class. I have had a PA CCP for 8 years (since the day I turned 21), and I have been shooting at least 20. My father was an LEO, so he made sure I was shooting every chance I got. I don't want to pay for a class which I have already taken, just so I can get an OH CCP. Your definition of the class sounds interesting.

larry_minn
April 20, 2008, 04:05 PM
Is it much different from any state/fed mandated training/certification? I can't recall when I have actually done EVERY hr of "required training" From EMT and many refreshers, Security, firearms, and many refreshers. Mn new CCWP requirements. Automobile, 15 pass van, semi driving. I doublt I have every completed the hrs. Class is 6pm to 10 pm two nights a week for (IIRC EMT was 100hrs) Well we never left later then 9:30 so ONE HR shorted every week.
Last "required" firearms course. We were not only short hrs but instructor was lost much of time. (when he did not wave a loaded gun)

I wouldn't sweat it but when you go for refresher ask questions before you sign up. If instructor not willing to spend extra time you find another.

eagle45
April 20, 2008, 07:23 PM
Some of the issues being discussed in this thread can be found in past discussions on Ohioans for Concealed Carry's website. There is also a handy link for finding an instructor in your area.

You can also ask on OFCC's forum for recommendations for an instructor.

http://www.ohioccw.org/

TechAlG
April 20, 2008, 10:05 PM
Thanks for the link. I stumbled upon that site earlier today, and am just completing the registration.

Linda
April 20, 2008, 10:31 PM
Linda -- Being new to Ohio, and searching for a good class, would you be willing to recommend some?

Come take my class. We've had students come from all over the state because of the great reputation we've built for ourselves. I'm in central Ohio, but had 2 guys from Fremont in the last class. Had several people from Sandusky, Cleveland, Dayton, among other corners of the state.

You can also find a list of instructors through Buckeye Firearms website.
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Ohio-CCW-Instructors

TheBluesMan
April 20, 2008, 10:51 PM
Linda is right on the mark. If you're looking for a qualified instructor, ask what is covered in the class. Basic pistol alone does not meet the standards set forth in the Ohio CCW law. Both the NRA personal protection classes do.

My classes use the Basic Pistol book, but like Linda said above, I also include holster selection, carry positions, conditional colors, use of force, how to conduct yourself during an encounter with a peace officer, mindset, etc. I like to include sections from the Personal Protection class that pertain to CCW.

On the range, we shoot from 15 feet into a 10" paper plate. After qualification, I have students shoot from different positions, kneeling, behind cover, left-handed, from retention ready, etc.

Take a look at the curriculum I've attached. That is much more than what you would learn in a typical Ohio CCW class, but it will help you quiz your prospective instructor to find out what you will be learning.

Hope this helps. :)

rjohnson4405
April 22, 2008, 10:44 AM
Thanks everybody for the information and interest. I will certainly keep all this in mind as I register.

Linda, what is the name of the group you offer the class with on Buckeye Firearms and in what county?

-rjohnson4405

MechAg94
April 22, 2008, 11:33 AM
Interesting. The instructors down here I have had were very careful to follow the letter of the requirements. They are not allowed to read the questions to the students or show us the test, but they can go through them and ask similar questions. :) Most people could walk in cold and pass that test; most of it makes sense pretty well.

The range I shot at last is 25 yards. They set up barrels in front of each target at the required distance and had the students stand at the barrel to fire. The other students waited behind the 25 yard benches. It worked pretty good.

Linda
April 22, 2008, 11:35 AM
Linda, what is the name of the group you offer the class with on Buckeye Firearms and in what county?


rjohnson4405, I am in western Licking County, east of Columbus about 15 miles. I own my training company, DBA "On The Defense, LLC". My co-instructor is Clint Lake, DBA "Right Defense, LLC".

bbowen
September 29, 2009, 01:31 PM
It really steams me when people get screwed. Its just plain inconsiderate and irresponsible. Me ana friend both took CCW classes (http://www.nasr.com/ohio-ccw-training/) from Aim Hi (nasr.com) near Columbus and both felt we got our money's worth.

I know this is an older thread but I thought it might be helpful for those like me, that stumble on this thread more than a year later.

Keep up the good fight friends,
Ben

ar10
September 29, 2009, 02:18 PM
Without stepping on any toes here's my view of the trainers I'm familiar with in Ohio.
When Ohio passed the CCW law in 2004 there was this huge rush to for NRA members to qualify as certified instructors to teach the CCW classes. The many ranges and gun stores also jumped on the same band wagon, and it seems that it had everything to do with money. It had little to do with being qualified to actually teach prospective CHL holders how to responsibly carry and handle a handgun. For instance in the class I took at a local indoor range, (the 12 hr single day class), the instructor was a current certified NRA instructor followed the basic outline as required by law, and everyone passed the class. In my opinion it was inadequate and had little to do with instructing students the responsibilities they have to always keep in mind when they decide they want to carry a gun.
I'm happy Ohio passed the CC laws. I'm not with the current system of instructor training or certification.

Deanimator
September 29, 2009, 02:45 PM
In my opinion it was inadequate and had little to do with instructing students the responsibilities they have to always keep in mind when they decide they want to carry a gun.
What did you think was lacking?

ar10
September 29, 2009, 11:55 PM
What did you think was lacking?

Actually quite a bit. Experience and teaching are probably the most obvious with actual content knowledge in the field of they are teaching third.

If you enjoyed reading about "CCW Instructor's Action Invalidate Permit?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!