How much does caliber really matter?

[Monkeybear]

You are attacked. You only have one shot. You fire and hit the attacker COM. The attacker is now 7 feet from you. Whatever platform you use is loaded with ammunition that is the designed to upmost limits of performance for your chosen caliber. In a nutshell all other things are equal except the caliber. If you cannot accept that all other things could possibly be equal for the purpose of this discussion pretend that you can. The importance of bullet design is understood but let us pretend that any bullet used in this situation is as well designed as any other.



In this situation how much dose caliber matter? Are you any better off with a 10mm than you would be with a .45acp? Than a 9mm? Better off with a .500s&W than a .357mag? At what point does caliber make a difference and where dose it not?


Let us for a moment pretend that we did not make up our minds the moment we read the title. If you are a 1911 guy and only shoot 1911s in .45acp pretend for the sake of this discussion that you are not. If you are a revolver guy please do the same. 9mm and 10mm guys; you too.

[MaterDei]

Bigger holes are better than smaller ones, always.

[LawofThirds]

.50 BMG (pick your round, I don't care and neither would the corpse in front of me)

If I only get one shot and all other factors besides stopping power then obviously I'm going to pick the biggest/most powerful round I can. That's one of the biggest reasons to carry a .357 J frame.

If I had to pick one round that I would have to balance ease of carry, recoil, size, and all the other considerations (gun being one of the greatest considerations, I may not be able to carry a large firearm to house my large round). .45 ACP for autoloader, .44 special for revolver (if it wasn't a 625)

I'm a fan of large permanent wound channels and big bullets tend to deposit a lot of energy without as much need for high velocity, which can lead to over penetration of soft targets.

[MachIVshooter]

All bullets kill by causing severe blood loss or destroying vital organs. Handgun rounds are traveling too slow to impart the hydrostatic shock and temporal cavity stretch, so the wounding mechanism is crushed/torn tissue. This means that the bullet must be able to penetrate deep enough and cause a sufficiently large cavity. Hence, a bigger bullet that penetrates deeper is more effective. Hollowpoints and other expanding designs allow the smaller caliber to create a larger wound, but at the price of reduced penetration. So to drive an expanded hollowpoint deep enough, you need more momentum (bullet weight and velocity). This is why rounds like the .357 magnum and 10mm have an edge; they develop enough energy to drive a fully expanded holowpoint very deep (or even completely through) the body.

So yes, caliber does matter. But shot placement is still paramount.

[Timthinker]

If I were restricted to a single-shot pistol such as a T/C Contender, then I would want to use the most powerful cartridge available to me since a rapid follow-up shot would not be possible. Of all the cartridges you mentioned, the .500 S&W seems like the best choice for a single COM shot at 7 feet. I hope this helps.


Timthinker

[Monkeybear]

Just to clarify I am not debating whether or not caliber matters but rather asking opinions as to what extent it matters. Placement is paramount but once you have that how much dose the actual bullet and its velocity matter.

How much?

Will a .45 with maximum penetration and expansion save your life where a 9mm with maximum penetration and expansion would not? How about a .380?

If the .45 failed with proper placement would a 10mm have not?

If the bullet is well designed and performs as designed, the untold multitude of random variables aside, can a slightly larger and or faster bullet be better enough to make a difference? At what point dose a bullet become bigger and faster enough to make a difference?

I understand that there is likely no real answer to be had, I just like reading your opinions.

[LawofThirds]

Placement is everything in handgun rounds for lethality. For stopping....your voodoo science is as good as my voodoo science, which is why we have people still yakking themselves blue in the face over which round is better (or even more arcane, which weight of bullet in a particular calibre is more effective). It's also how self defense ammo still sells for what it does and how companies like extreme shock stay in business.

Personally I subscribe to the bigger is better and the slow and heavy schools of thinking. Small and fast has several perceived disadvantages to my way of thinking, even though I will agree that there are very effective small rounds.

[Marbles]

Yes.

I can't afford anything other than 9mm for pistols. 9mm FMJ 115gr.

In this sad state of America, not everybody can afford even hollowpoints. I can't afford them. 9mm is a very nice, easy round to shoot, and I like it.

Is any other round good? Yes. But I can't afford it.

[Snapping Twig]

As a general rule, bigger is better. Also speed is a factor as is bullet type/construction.

I get only one shot...? OK, let's say a .44 mag, 180g HP at 1500fps, that ought to do it!

Round nose and FMJ are typically under performers as they disrupt less tissue than other rounds. SWC and other rounds with a large flat face (metplat) are excellent choices for hunting as they penetrate well and impart hydrostatic shock, do this with a big enough caliber and the blood loss from entry and exit holes, not to mention all the secondary missiles (bone fragments) and temporary cavity should do the trick.

Speed up a small caliber enough and it gains power. Hollow point bullets made to expand at handgun (magnum) velocities ought to be sufficient to completely penetrate human targets from a CM perspective. The point here is that the HP expands and penetrates making it in effect a larger caliber. I say, why not shoot a large bore bullet - they're pre-expanded without expanding.

To my mind, anything you can accurately place would be far more effective than something huge that you can't accurately place. If all you have is a .38spl, but you shoot it well, would be more than enough to do the work.

I prefer large bore pistols and my first choice for social work would have to be .45acp from a 1911. I also favor .44spl (home loaded) as a .429 bullet of 240g @ 900fps is a stopper.

[LawofThirds]

A single box of something like black hills blue box (remanufactured) JHP 115 grain will run you about 20 per 50 cartridges and would be an inexpensive round to keep for home defense, especially since 9mm ball has been proven to over penetrate.

[Marbles]

A single box of something like black hills blue box (remanufactured) JHP 115 grain will run you about 20 per 50 cartridges and would be an inexpensive round to keep for home defense, especially since 9mm ball has been proven to over penetrate.

They don't sell that where I live. :sigh:

I am much more concerned about being able to shoot at the target and hit him. Over penetration does not bother me. :)

EDIT: a WWB box of 9mm FMJ 115gr ran me about 19.99 or so (probably 21.99) on sale. 50 round box of UMC 9mm FMJ 115gr ran me about 13.99, on sale. I can't afford to buy ammo -NOT- on sale.

[CWL]

I read your post 3x and I'm still not sure I'm following you.

For the sake of self defense: your 1st shot is the most important because you may never get to fire a 2nd.

I'll stick with my M1911 and any .45ACP round that I have in the pipe that day. Against an unarmored opponent, I'll take my chances with a single .45ACP to his/her COM.

No need second-guessing my choice of firearm & caliber at this point.

[LawofThirds]

To Marbles:
Winchester does a hollowpoint in their white box, I've seen it for sale at my local sportsman's warehouse for as low as 17.99/100 during an easter sale (9mm-cause that easter bunny is gonna do some b&e)

I would be inclined to purchase it not just from a safety/stopping power stand point but also from a legal standpoint. While obviously location is all important in real estate and shots, having the bullet pass through him (happened quite a few times for the NYPD with 9mm) and wound someone (who's going to sue for sure)(or that you care about (who might still sue)) would be a worry to me.

Still, if you live by yourself in a brick building in a rural area, then go for the FMJ, and in the end it's your choice, I can only explain my reasons for me buying JHP's.

To CWL:
I understand the question I think. It's a somewhat roundabout way of asking about single bullet stopping power. While empirical evidence points to a .357, I think that evidence is skewed by the function of it being the number 1 police handgun round for a great number of years and the tendency of police in more recent times with high capacity autoloaders to believe in the "if one is good, lots is better" line of thinking for shooting combatant miscreants.

I'm still sticking with .50 BMG since technically it's the largest round chambered in a handgun and we are in the handgun forum. If I will never have another shot and I know I'll hit center mass, I'm going pick the largest round I can. Your 1911 in .45 ACP is a great choice as a self defense weapon, however it is designed to hold more than one round. Assume an amazing one shot derringer in any calibre currently contained in a handgun that will shoot someone COM (say right through the breastbone) every time and then disintegrate, what round would you pick?

[Monkeybear]

CWL- How much dose caliber matter? The rest of what I wrote is just to keep everything that is not caliber out of the discussion. Many caliber discussions are filled with what is actually great advice like "whatever you shoot best" or "placement is key" however I wanted to keep this topic about when caliber makes enough of a difference and when it dose not.

To illustrate lets say you placed one very well designed .380 bullet COM on your attacker. The attacker is only 7 feet away. If this single well designed well placed bullet penetrated and expanded as designed and yet failed to save your life would a 9mm have failed as well? Would a .45 have failed?

At what point dose caliber make enough of a difference to save your life from this close range attack?

In a nutshell: If everything else goes right, where dose caliber start to make a difference?



Sorry if my question is poorly worded, its pretty late for me. :p

[LawofThirds]

Honestly, COM is not the ideal placement. CNS is ideal placement as COM is going to rely on bleed out effect which can take between 15-30 seconds depending on your attackers condition. Which is plenty of time for him to stab you to death with his sharpened toothbrush.

[Monkeybear]

CNS may be ideal in real life but here it just makes the discussion about caliber a lot harder. With a CNS hit it won't matter if you used a .25acp or a .50bmg. If it doesn't matter there is nothing to discuss and if there is nothing to discuss there is nothing to share or learn and thus no fun to be had.

[LawofThirds]

Well, CNS shots still have to penetrate the cranial cavity, something that's pretty hard for alot of handgun bullets. I do not know if this statistic is true but I have heard that as little as 50% of handgun rounds fired (that connect) with a person's skull penetrate.

If I get one shot, still taking that .50 BMG. Failing that, I wonder if I can get a TC contender in .700 Express or .577 Tyrannosaurus. The broken arm wouldn't be much fun though ;)

[Zoogster]

Bigger will always be better with just one COM shot. However 3-4 shots in the same time with a less powerful round can be more effective and faster than 2 shots with a caliber more powerful than necessary for the human torso with slow follow up shots.

So bigger is better for 1 shot like in your scenario, which is why they are great for hunting.
However when you factor in more than 1 shot, and that most common pistol calibers often have random immediate results on the target, time between follow up shots can be one of the most important factors if the first shot was not enough.

Further you don't want to penetrate right through the person, the car behind him, and hit the next person with as much energy as a medium caliber at the muzzle. So using say a .500S&W even with the best expanding ammunition would probably be a bit inconsiderate. Now loaded with frangible ammo or even multiple projectiles per round (when shooting 400 grain pills at those velocities you will still be okay if instead it shot 4 100 grain projectiles at the same velocity.)

In several well documented videos you can reference of police shootouts involving just one officer and one criminal dozens of rounds have been fired. That is fairly common.
That is especialy true when around vehicles, and with the other side shooting back. It is easy to criticize someone for not being more precise when they have incoming rounds but data seems to show higher round count can be beneficial in some cases.
Even the military has shown that the number of small arms kills is propertional to a very high round count in most combat situations when people are taking cover and fighting it out(obviously some great marksmen, and some high rate of fire machineguns make shot per kill data a bit erratic.)

It is just easier to duck behind cover and fire 10 rounds with mediocre accuracy in about a foot radious at the enemy than it is to fire a few precision rounds while he is shooting at you.
5 imperfect shots from cover that wound the enemy while taking none in return beats 1 or 2 perfect shots that cause you to be hit as well from the point of view of the officer.
Pistol rounds rarely immediately incapacitate the reciever. So a determined attacker can continue to get some rounds off even after being hit. Which means even a great shooter can take return fire in the time it takes for the wound to down the individual.
It is not a wild west movie, the quickest draw and shot does not always remain uninjured just because he hit his mark first. Someone can take a dozen rounds from a submachinegun in the chest and still return fire in the 10-15 seconds of consciousness they have left.So unlike in the movies, two individuals pointing weapons at eachother who then open fire are quite likely to exchange bullets, not have one escape uninjured and the other be immediately incapacitated.

[loop]

The question is flawed. A shot to COM will not stop any faster than 10 to 15 seconds if everything works to its optimum capability. COM shots depend on bleed out or shock to stop. Bleed out takes time. Shock can be immediate.

Your best chance of inducing immediate shock is with a flat-nosed bullet, such as a wadcutter. It has a direct impact on more nerve endings than a round-nosed bullet or hollowpoint, both of which tend to move nerve endings out of the way. The hollowpoint may produce more rapid bleeding, but in your query you are talking seven yards - a short enough distance that if I had a baseball bat and you had a .45ACP you'd be dead before I would.

The only truly instant incapacitating shot is a CNS hit.

If I could I'd use the largest bore size possible with a flat-faced bullet, ie: wadcutter.

Just by way of information, last week at our pistol match I got hit in the arm by one of my .45 rounds on a ricochet off a steel plate. Got a pretty decent gash. I got cold and had goose pimples and even felt a little light headed, but I finished the course of fire and turned in a respectable score. We found the bullet (I bled pretty good so we searched for it). It was a nearly intact 230-grain .45. If it hit me at about 600 fps in a more sensitive place I may have whited out.

As Julian Hatcher determined nearly 100 years ago, big and slow is the best stopper. I would agree. Hatcher's Notebook should be required reading for anyone who carries for self defense.

[Marbles]

To Marbles:
Winchester does a hollowpoint in their white box, I've seen it for sale at my local sportsman's warehouse for as low as 17.99/100 during an easter sale (9mm-cause that easter bunny is gonna do some b&e)

I would be inclined to purchase it not just from a safety/stopping power stand point but also from a legal standpoint. While obviously location is all important in real estate and shots, having the bullet pass through him (happened quite a few times for the NYPD with 9mm) and wound someone (who's going to sue for sure)(or that you care about (who might still sue)) would be a worry to me.

Still, if you live by yourself in a brick building in a rural area, then go for the FMJ, and in the end it's your choice, I can only explain my reasons for me buying JHP's.

Good point.

The only WWBs we have here is FMJ. At just above minimum wage I can't afford much more than UMC ammo. But if I see some of that JHP I might pick it up. There are a lot of people in my wage bracket, and we simply cannot afford Cor-bon .357 SIG +P+ JHP premium ammo that clocks in the hot 10mm areas.


Personally, I think we are asking too much from a handgun round. Here is what we want:

1. High power/energy.
2. Low recoil.
3. Excellent penetration of windshields, bricks, multiple cars, and doors and body armor.
4. High magazine capacity.
5. Smaller rounds over bigger rounds, for the sake of portability. (ie. if a 155mm howitizer does the same exact effect as a 240mm, go with 155)
6. Cheap. Cheap. Cheap. Plentiful. Legal.
7. Stops the -whoever- in one shot. Anywhere.
8. Stops inside the BG with no exit wound.
9. Massive internal injury.
10. Doesn't hurt anything else except target and obstacles in front of him.
11. Accurate. Really, really accurate. Flat shooting round too.
12. No missfires, hangfires, KBs, etc. Perfect stuff.
13. Reloadable.

We do not want the inverse of all of the above. Does anybody see a pattern for those requirements!?

I'll cut the chase. It's a rifle round. We don't know the caliber, but it is probably .223 and above, and probably less than .270. Somewhere in between there.

We are requesting hyperbolic requirements from our handguns. We want it to penetrate barriers, but not over penetrate. We want it to be powerful, but cheap and have high capacity, low recoil.

I believe 9mm is an EXCELLENT compromise. You cannot have everything in that list in a handgun. 9mm is also very good for people who are recoil sensitive. It is easy to shoot, it is plentiful.

I met somebody else at the range, who let me shoot a couple of their firearms. Very, very nice people. I didn't know people like this existed. :) We agreed that .22LR, .223, 9mm...POPULAR rounds that can be found ANYWHERE are best. Are you going to find .218 Bee in Katrina type situation? .220 Swift? .41 Magnum? .500 S/W? .22 Agrilla?

Think about it. .45 is good. You can find it in a lot of places. But not everybody can afford it. We should not be bashing (not saying anywhere here did it) people who cannot afford $3k Kimber compacts with very expensive "premium self defense" ammunition.

[Erik]

"How much does caliber really matter?"

Objectively, as long as a given caliber provided between 12 and 18 inches of penetration in bare gelatin, preferably coupled with reliabe expansion, not much.

Subjectively, as long as the above is coupled with acceptable recoil levels for a given shooter, not much.

[CWL]

To illustrate lets say you placed one very well designed .380 bullet COM on your attacker. The attacker is only 7 feet away. If this single well designed well placed bullet penetrated and expanded as designed and yet failed to save your life would a 9mm have failed as well? Would a .45 have failed?

Monkeybear, OK, I'm following you now. There is unfortunately no answer to your question. You might shoot a 300lb bully with a .22lr and he gives up crying, but you might also shoot a 115lb meth-head with a .44 mag but who doesn't realize that he's already dead so he still kills you with a steak knife.

As for your .380 example, generally these guns will be fired from small guns with short barrels, so velocity & potential expansion is not optimal. In my case, a .45ACP bullet fired from my 5" barrel M1911 is going to be at design optimal in performance.

It really still comes own to where you hit with the first shot. Caliber sure contributes to the equation.

[Mac45]

Bigger bullets are always better than little bullets.
They let more air in, and more blood out, which is of course the object of the exercise.
Having said that, carry what YOU shoot best.
Much better to be able to use a .22LR well, than lug around a .47 caliber Loudenboomer that you can't hit anything with.
Just my $.02

[Timthinker]

I thought an interesting historical footnote might be appropriate here. In terms of rifle technology, as firepower rates increased, the size of caliber has tended to decrease. Yes, this thread is about a single-shot handgun round. But this generalization seems to have merit here. Smoothbore muskets tended to have a larger bore diameter than rifles. Breech loading rifles tended to have a smaller caliber than muzzleloading rifles. Repeater rifles, for the military, tended to have a smaller caliber size than single-shot breech loaders. My point is that if you are limited to one shot before reloading, then a larger caliber weapon seems appropriate. Just thought I would share this tidbit of information.


Timthinker

[Markbo]

I don't have anything to add that would mean anything other than a personal opinion, but I remember seeing someones signature here once... forgive me if it is not perfect:

"The argument about most effective one shot stop .45 vs 9mm is not due to a lack of bodies to study"

Surely this subject has some definative data available to back up all these theories being thrown about as fact.

[DougDubya]

A Thompson Contender in .45-90 or .45-100?

I mean, only one shot... plus you get the bonus of a muzzle flash which would make a Def-Tec distraction device seem like a chipmunk squeak.

[ArchAngelCD]

I didn't read all the posts, especially those LONG posts so I'm sorry if I'm repeating answers already given.

I think I understand your question. IMO, if you place a .32 Auto or .380 Auto round in someone's heart they will die and do so quickly. The trouble is, you can't guarantee you will hit a vital organ even when shooting from 7 feet away. If you agree with that statement then you will also agree a larger hole will cause more and quicker bleeding thus having a better chance of stopping the target faster. Even though I'm a big fan of the 38/357 if you can only shoot once I would want to shoot the larges bullet available because it will have the best change of stopping an attack. Is it needed, not always, but why take the chance? If I were assured of a heart, lung or spinal column hit I would use a .38 Special but that can't be assured.

[1895GS]

As someone may have mentioned, bigger is always better. I tend to like a .40 or .357 SIG or .357 or .38 at least. A .357, 44 mag, or 45 Colt if the attacker might be four legged. But.... generally I end up carrying a .380 Mustang, I suppose a S&W .500 would be the best choice, but not if you don't carry it.

[Phil DeGraves]

When you think you're going to get into a gunfight, the first thought that goes through your mind is "I wish I had something bigger and had more bullets."

Let's say instead of being able to shoot the guy, all you get is one swing of either a quarter inch diameter steel rod or a sixteen pound bowling ball. Which would you choose?

[Markbo]

A Thompson Contender in .45-90 or .45-100?
I mean, only one shot... plus you get the bonus of a muzzle flash which would make a Def-Tec distraction device seem like a chipmunk squeak.

To Paraphrase Mr Wayans - "You're on fiiiaaahhhh!":fire:

[wcb]

In this sad state of America, not everybody can afford even hollowpoints. I can't afford them. 9mm is a very nice, easy round to shoot, and I like it.

Is any other round good? Yes. But I can't afford it.

Buy a box of 20 (Gold Dots) to load your carry weapon and practice with the closest equivalent.

[wcb]

I carry a 44 Special since it's the most carry-able gun I have (Charter Arms, Bull Dog Pug); I target shoot with my 45 ACP 1911's but would likely carry one if it fit my dress better.

From what I've seen and read, from 9 mm to .45 there isn't a whole lot of difference. Then depending on the season and how much your assailant weighs things change. In the winter, believe it or not, you're better off with a 9 mm to pierce the heavy clothing you have to deal with that coupled with an over weight assailant you have a lot of barrier to absorb energy and a tough shot to stop the attack.

I read a story where a cop emptied his (I believe) 9 mm into a big BG who was unfazed then BG fired one .22 at the cop and a lucky shot went through the arm hole in his bullet proof vest and killed the cop. There's something to be said for placement.

I saw a picture of a block of ballistic jell with comparative shots in it (sorry dont have the URL) and quite frankly, there wasn't a huge difference between a 9 mm up to a .45 in expansion damage. Yes there was a difference but not so as to say you've got to have a .45 to win a gun fight.

I posted this in another thread, read some of these articles; they may just shock you as to how hard it is to stop someone with a handgun.

http://firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm

Bottom line, dont count so much on the size of the gun (within reason) learn to shoot and if it's a big guy, one to the torso to slow him down then a head shot.

[Markbo]

Let's say instead of being able to shoot the guy, all you get is one swing of either a quarter inch diameter steel rod or a sixteen pound bowling ball. Which would you choose?


How long of a rod? :)

[Mr. Designer]

You are attacked. You only have one shot.12 Gauge 00 Buckshot

[wcb]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeybear
You are attacked. You only have one shot.

12 Gauge 00 Buckshot

Best answer yet.

[MCgunner]

Bigger holes are better than smaller ones, always.

From shooting pigs, I have seen bigger exit holes from .357 magnum than .45ACP. Harry Callahan's "blow your head clean off" ain't far off the mark for a magnum revolver. So, caliber? Well, so long as it's .355 or bigger, I'm happy with it for carry. I don't do .32s. Everyone has their minimums and opinions on the topic. Makes for good arguments on gun boards. :D

Let's say instead of being able to shoot the guy, all you get is one swing of either a quarter inch diameter steel rod or a sixteen pound bowling ball. Which would you choose?

Well, when I bowled league, I only carried a 160 average. I'm thinkin' the rod. I'm a better fisherman than bowler and accuracy is what matters. :D

BTW, what's a "winter"?

[wcb]

BTW, what's a "winter"?

I have often wanted to put a snow shovel on my shoulder and walk south till someone says "What's that?"

[McCall911]

In this situation how much dose caliber matter?

:uhoh:

Isn't this how caliber wars get started?

[freakshow10mm]

"Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified".

[givo08]

Shot for shot, a bigger hole made w/ more energy is obviously better than a smaller hole w/ less energy. It may be a very fine line where one bullet does not work and another does all else being equal and 99.99% of the time the result will be the same no matter which caliber if the bullet was put in the exact same spot.

However, this misses all other important factors that should come into consideration for your decision such as recoil/follow up speed, capacity, ease of reloading, ease of concealing, how quick you can get on target and pull the trigger (more platform dependent), etc.

[freakshow10mm]

A Thompson Contender in .45-90 or .45-100?

I mean, only one shot... plus you get the bonus of a muzzle flash which would make a Def-Tec distraction device seem like a chipmunk squeak.
Nope. TC Encore pistol in 375 H&H Magnum should do the trick.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Encore%20Pistol/P4140009.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/Encore%20Pistol/P4140010.jpg

[MCgunner]

Uh, I'll stick to my .30-30 contender, thanks. I wanna kill the deer/hog, not break my arm....:D

[freakshow10mm]

Nothin' like a 335gr lead RN at 2025fps from a 15.5" bbl.

[SlamFire1]

I forget where I read the thread, but a Coroner from Atlanta posted some of his thoughts about handgun performance based on what he saw from the “slab”.

It was an interesting thread, but he quit because the ideologues were biting too hard.

My recollection was that he liked bigger bullets. He had seen multiple gunshot victims where light caliber bullets were deflected by the ribs, or other bones. From what he saw, heavy bullets were much more predictable.

Bullet deflection could be a mixed blessing, if the bullet was aimed at a vital organ, and deflected away, it could take more shots to stop the perpetrator. If however, you were as unfortunate as a friend I knew, he was killed when a .22LR deflected off a back rib or spine, directly in to his heart.

High power rifles were particularly deadly. He made a comment about internal organs pouring out like jelly from body cavities of people shot by a high power rifle.

And he had one softball player on his slab. The poor guy was addled with beer, and someone brought a potato gun to the game. The softball player got into batting practice with the guy with the potato gun. Unfortunately the potato did not go down the center of the plate, and the batter was killed by the impact.

From what I understand, you are better off with big over small, and a long gun over a handgun.

Make my seven foot single shot weapon a 12Ga with buckshot.

[Guitargod1985]

It's not the size that counts, it's how you use it. Bigger is better, though - if you can handle it.

[easyrider6042004@yahoo.ca]

Agree with all those who said bigger is better: with an extra qualification, maximum possible velocity.

A single heart shot will not guarantee the quick "dead-in-his-tracks" effect that we all dream (or have nightmares) about. The projectile that makes the largest, deepest hole in the quickest possible time will ensure the highest probability of this effect happening, by i.e. turning his heart into mush, or blowing it out his back. Still, his brain is still functioning and 7 feet is near enough for this already, or soon to be, dead BG to take you with him!

I'd opine that a drug crazed, athletic 250 lb BG might require, at the minimum, a reliable-expanding 200 grain hollowpoint .429 caliber bullet travelling 1,400 fps

[Funderb]

hand grenade. always takes care of the problem. Always better than a pistol, rifle, shotgun, bat, harsh words, etc.

[wcb]

Nope. TC Encore pistol in 375 H&H Magnum should do the trick.

You've got to be kidding me!!!! I'm guessing the best part of shooting a hand gun like that is it blows you down the street to a safe distance with the recoil.

[-v-]

If we get only 1 shot? Anything with 16"-18" of penetration.

If we want near 100% guaranteed 1-shot stop, lets go with a .50BMG with a 750gr JHP "elephant-stopper" or a HE-FRAG-esque projectile. I guess if we blow the BG in twain he's fairly harmless...

[wcb]

If we want near 100% guaranteed 1-shot stop, lets go with a .50BMG with a 750gr JHP "elephant-stopper" or a HE-FRAG-esque projectile. I guess if we blow the BG in twain he's fairly harmless...

That just might stop half the neighborhood though. LOL

[LawofThirds]

Does anyone make a frangible for the .50 BMG? I can imagine that the wound would look roughly like the trail left by a pack of rabid hedgehogs

[MCgunner]

High power rifles were particularly deadly. He made a comment about internal organs pouring out like jelly from body cavities of people shot by a high power rifle.

Anyone who hunts can relate to this. I've seen it shooting deer with a 150 grain 7mm Sierra Game King at 3300 fps muzzle velocity. Not a lung to be found, vaporized, amazing. You push a small bullet fast enough, you don't need no stinkin' bowlin' ball. Dr. Michael Courtney, who has posted links to his published research on the affects of pressure waves on neural systems and tissue, has stated that 1000 ft lbs is about the breaking point for tissue damage, but that some affects occur from over 500 ft lbs in, say, .357 magnum. My hunting experiences jive with that, but he did the actual research. I think I'm quoting him right. Was a low number compared to the Fackler gurus, anyway, and I know some HUNTERS who shoot RIFLES that think bigger bore is better and hunt deer with 35 remingtons figurin' it'll kill game faster than a 7mm STW. :rolleyes: Whatever works for you, I guess. But, I can tell ya, my 7 mag will take 'em from 20 yards to 350 bang flop. Been there, done that. Still takes decent bullet placement, but the 7 is more forgiving of that.

Bottom line, with handguns, even magnum handguns, tissue damage is more important than pressure wave affects in the neural system, but I've seen more tissue damage and bigger exit holes on game from a .357 magnum than from a standard pressure .45ACP. That's a fact. I've shot hogs in the trap with .357 140 grain speer JHPs at 600 ft lbs and had MASSIVE exit wounds. I have confidence in magnum revolvers to do the job. Frankly, I have confidence in a well placed 9mm and it's a lot easier to conceal. I've shot pigs with the .38 special shooting the same speer bullet and while the exit wound and wound channel wasn't nearly as impressive as the .357 (probably more due to less bullet expansion than pressure wave affects), it sure got full penetration! If a bullet like that expands and fully penetrates, that's about all you can hope for. I start getting concerned about .380ACP for penetration, but I know .38, 9mm, and up will do the job. That's why they have normally chosen as service calibers, I reckon. Only in Europe is there a military history from mouse gun calibers and that's pretty well history now days even there.

Here's a link I searched. http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=292871&highlight=Michael+Courtney

[leathermanwave]

357 mm























I know it's .357 mag but if I only get one shot I want a cannon.:)

[MagnumDweeb]

I've actually contemplated this similar scenario. But first, my cousin once killed a robber who had one of his employees at gun point leading her to the back. Now my cousin normally keeps a few guns on him at almost any given time, his carry that day was a .38spl in an ankle holster, a .38pl in his left pocket and 629 4" 44 magnum(I've shot it and it's why I have fallen in love with magnums). Now he could of gone dirty harry and plugged the guy in the shoulder and probably seen an exit wound come out the other shoulder while the spine was likely damaged in the process but...He went with .38spl he tells me because it's his 'precision' caliber, he says it's like a "a paintbrush to a savant artist"(yes his words) and is more or less an extension of his hand, and from that I coined for myself the phrase "point-and-click". At around fifteen feet away and little time to react, he went with his 'precision' caliber and dropped the guy with a blue-tip glaser safety round, he told me the guy literally slumped over the instant my cousin saw the hole appear near his ear, there was a little exit wounding as some bits (a total of seven) escaped and after the report and take away that he wiped away with some cloth and windex.

So I borrow a note from the that book, have a 'precision' or "point-and-click" caliber. For the purposes of this scenario I'm going with my Arcus 94-C 9mm loaded with it's usual haul of simple Blazer 124 gr JHP (it's what I shoot out of it the most often and the gun is meant to be BUG to my .357 snubby which I pocket carry as a 'throw up a wall of lead'). Grab the gun and put the round between the eyes. I can hit near center on playing cards at 20 yards with my Arcus and load of Blazers and I can double tap out a magazine of 12+1 at fifteen feet inside a playing card and snap draw the gun and point shoot near center of the playing card at 15 feet.

Admittedly I do nearly all my shooting at playing cards or outlines of them depending on the range I go to. My great grandpa's dad taught him and it served him in WWI and the Boxer rebellion and he taught his son and it served him well in WWII and Korea, and he taught his son and it served him well in 'Nam.

[freakshow10mm]

You've got to be kidding me!!!! I'm guessing the best part of shooting a hand gun like that is it blows you down the street to a safe distance with the recoil.
Recoil isn't that bad. I'm 150# and handle it fine. Just lean into it.

This load is a starting charge of 62gr Varget and a 250gr Sierra.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdIY6BgXfXA

[Wolfeye]

I think caliber boils down to a big gray area mixed with personal preference, even despite all that we're told and all the methods used to quantify their effectiveness. I like mulitiple-use calibers like .357 mag and .44 mag. This preference is arbitrary, but it's what I've settled on. I think people pick their calibers based on what seems to have been proven anecdotally or through experience.

I know in the back of my mind that caliber must matter, but so do things like... whether or not the butterfly flutters its wings in Japan might determine if my bullet turns into a kill shot or a gut shot when I try to shoot a deer at 100 yards. Hypothetically.

Outdoorsmen who take bears seriously also take gun caliber seriously. Where I grew up in Southeast AK, there was a story of a man who'd been mauled to death by a blackbear. The bear carcass was only a short distance from the man's body, and it had been shot 6 times with .32 magnum bullets. If he'd stepped up to .357 he might have still been alive today, who knows...

[hinton03]

The FBI will tell you that the answer is a 357 magnum 125 grain Federal Hydra-Shok. They keep records on one shot stops and this round is king. Having said that I believe that most of the rounds that are considered adequate defense rounds (38 special and up) will be within a few percentage points of the 357 given your COM and bullet design criteria.

A lot of times I think we do not consider the psychological affect of being shot. We pretend that a human is ballistic gelatin or even an animal. Animals and gelatin do not know they have been shot and do not know that they will likely die. Other than in extreme circumstances a human shot anywhere will likely stop what they are doing.

I carry a 9mm with 124 grain gold dots, or a 38 special with 135 grain gold dots, not because I believe that they are the number one choice, but because they are perfectly adequate given my lifestyle and needs.

[freakshow10mm]

I have serious doubts to whether the "one shot stop" BS is something to rely upon for caliber and load selection for self defense. There are a lot of other factors to be taken into consideration for the purpose of this selection and the last place I'd look for real answers is any form of LE.

The civilian population kills more criminals in justifiable homicides than the LE population. LE gun and ammo selection is rarely based upon raw performance at any cost, but rather acceptable performance that fits in the budget. They worry about the money rather than officer's lives. That is plain wrong IMO.

[orionengnr]

At what point dose a bullet become bigger and faster enough to make a difference?

If there were a definitive answer to that question, there would sudenly be a lot fewer calibers for sale. And then we could all quit screwing around on the internet on Company time, and get this Country back on it's feet by doing some good, old-fashioned productive work! :rolleyes:

(BTW, it's does, not dose...) :)

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

The answer is, not a whole lot. Just a little bit is all. Look at penetration & expansion tests - the differences between 9mm and .45 and .40 are miniscule to say the least, with modern HP bullets.

[DougDubya]

To freakshow10mm - you are insane.

And I LOVE that about you.

.375 H&H Contender.

Yup... got the .45-90 beat to snap.

[freakshow10mm]

I built it as a cheap entry to the .375 Holland; cost me less than a rifle, started out with a die set I bought for $7.50. Got addicted. My next .375 project is a short rifle with a 20" barrel. I have barrels in .358 STA (8mm Mag necked up) and .416 Rem Mag on the way in a few weeks for the Encore pistol.

I use this gun (with a few marked dummy rounds next to it) as an attention-getter piece at gun shows. Does the job alright.

[Ltlabner]

Oh look...another thread about caliber.

As long as you are at .380 or higher IMO caliber isn't nearly as important as mindset, training and skill in employing your weapon. Some ninjas worry about caliber and forget to actually, you know, figure out how to use their weapons.

On the top end, anything over .45ACP or 10mm is likely overkill and could start to have serrious drawbacks (harderfollow up shots, less likely to practice regularly with weapon, blinding flash at night, over-penetration, etc.).

Get a weapon you can be comfortable with, in a caliber you can reliably & consistantly hit the target with. Then spend as much time as possible training with it. Sit back and let the ninjas worry about the other junk.

[McCall911]

Okay, then. Size does matter:



http://www.vincelewis.net/50magnum/600-gun-1.JPG
I can't decide if it's the greatest revolver in the world, or the stupidest idea in the world!

[Tom Fury]

RPG...
7 feet away demands a head shot...assuming I'm shooting because he has a weapon and I must shoot to live, COM is not the answer...
Cheers:
TF, who couldn't sleep...

[mavracer]

nope caliber don't matter just give me a 7 1/2" SAA that way if I miss I can put a pop knot on their nugget big enough to drill holes in and bowl with.

[Markbo]

freakshow - do you have another video of that. I have looked and looked at that video and I swear that does not look like a T/C.... maybe the angle, the lighting, I don't know... but it looks like something else.

[equitytrader]

Anything smaller than .729" is for . . . what are the names all the 1911 guys use to call everybody else?

[gallo]

If a com at 7 feet does not deter the BG, you're in heap of trouble. A good pair of sneakers may come handy in lieu of a follow-up shot.

[wcb]

If a com at 7 feet does not deter the BG, you're in heap of trouble. A good pair of sneakers may come handy in lieu of a follow-up shot.

I have to agree and say I consider myself a pretty good shot but if someone threatens me with deadly force, even at 7 feet, I'm firing at COM with a double tap; then after that having a little more time, if needed, a head shot. At 7 feet it takes too long to get to a head shot; when my life depends on milliseconds, I ain't wastin any time.

I dont mean to sound like a Ninja here.

[brigadier]

If you are talking about getting the same velocities out of equal weight bullets of different calibers, the larger the caliber, the better, up to a certain point in which you end up with too much width and not enough torso.
The whole idea of winning the fight you described is getting the bullet to stop in the target and deliver a ton of energy. For this, it is best described in these words: "oboola lo goola" (wider is better), and the hole is going to be larger as well.

[freakshow10mm]

freakshow - do you have another video of that. I have looked and looked at that video and I swear that does not look like a T/C.... maybe the angle, the lighting, I don't know... but it looks like something else.
It's a TC Encore pistol. The only one I have.

The barrel is a rifle barrel cut down to 15.5 inches. The rifle forearm will crack under heavy recoil in pistols, so the pistol forearm is used. The holes don't line up, as the rifle forearm is longer than the pistol. I need to D&T the barrel for the pistol forearm.

In the video, there is no forearm or scope on it. In the the pic I posted, the forearm is just sitting on the barrel. I am using a borrowed scope from a guy on another forum. I haven't had time to test for accuracy yet.

[Markbo]

I'll watch again, thanks. But you are proof that recoil is manageble. A strong grip, the right stance and letting the gun move instead of fighting it goes a long way toward handling it. I find the recoil of the .375 in rifles is not nearly as fierce as most believe. Maybe I need to look for a barrel for my Encore. :D