Lethal .380


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AMBASSADOR
April 19, 2008, 05:14 PM
Is it possible to seriously injure or kill a person with a .380ACP.I have herd that it is better than nothing,beats a punch in the nose.How affective is this round.Would anyone volunteer to get shot and explain how it feels?.;)

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Heavy Metal Hero
April 19, 2008, 05:15 PM
Are you serious?

WoofersInc
April 19, 2008, 05:26 PM
First of all. No one volunteers to get shot. Period.
Any caliber bullet is capable of killing someone. Shot placement makes even the 17 a potential killer. As a former paramedic and current ER nurse I have seen my share of gunshot victims and all of them were very unhappy about being shot. At least those that were still alive.

GhostlyKarliion
April 19, 2008, 05:33 PM
.380 is just as deadly as 9mm, FMJ's are very weak, but your SD load shouldn't be FMJ.

modern bullet tech has gotten quite good, carry what you can fit, cause if you aint gonna carry it, then it aint gonna help you any.

mgregg85
April 19, 2008, 05:54 PM
Is .380 ACP deadly?

Is that a serious question?

People get killed with .22 LR and .25 ACP all the time.

isp2605
April 19, 2008, 05:56 PM
If the .380 isn't deadly then we sure put the pathologist to a lot of work for a couple of shootings I handled involving a .380. If they weren't dead then they should of spoken up before the pathologist performed the autopsies on them.

oldgold
April 19, 2008, 05:59 PM
Fellow I know Popped his g-friend's ex as he was pointing a shotgun at him. DRT.

Seemed to be fairly lethal.

GeezerwithGuns
April 19, 2008, 06:44 PM
I read somewhere that .22's account for a large percentage of firearm deaths, so a .380 is at least as lethal I would think.

rcmodel
April 19, 2008, 06:55 PM
I got your "beats a punch in the nose"!

http://www.brassfetcher.com/380ACP.html

Note that both FMJ loads would probably shoot through two BG's if you stacked them just right!

And the JHP loads would certainly leave a mark!
12" penetration and almost 1/2" expansion out of a tiny little Kel-Tec ain't all that bad for a lot of other calibers.

rcmodel

bogie
April 19, 2008, 06:57 PM
JUST WHERE THE BLEEP DO THESE PEOPLE COME FROM?

Guys. I don't care how badly Brady is paying y'all, if you're gonna earn your money, you should at least do your homework before trolling.

The Tourist
April 19, 2008, 07:16 PM
C'mon, guys, it might be aserious question.

Not all people read as much, shoot as much or frequent forums as folks who are serious about our sport.

Coupled with that is the usual hubbub about "mouse guns" fueled by blowhards over coffee at gun shops.

Two of my self-defense pistols are .380 ACP. And even after all these years I get funny looks and friends ask me, "Tourist, I know you own .45's and .40's, so why is your EDC a .380 ACP?"

Even after I show them that my particular firearms are Tusseys that cycle Gold-Dots and Golden Sabers, they are so accustomed to misinformation that they sincerely believe I have made a poor choice.

I'll bet we have members here who would begrudgingly opine that a .380 ACP is the "smallest acceptable cartridge" a real martial artist should consider.

.cheese.
April 19, 2008, 07:18 PM
.380 is 9mm short.

Slightly less velocity if I remember correctly, but at the ranges it is typically used at it is absolutely deadly.

Some police forces (notably in Brazil) carry .380 caliber Glocks.

Guitargod1985
April 19, 2008, 07:37 PM
I sure hope it's lethal!

My everyday carry gun is chambered in .380 ACP. It's a Sig P232.

Ballistic gelatin tests show it to be adequate for self defense. Even the JHPs manage 12" of penetration. I carry 90 grain Federal Hydrashoks.

isp2605
April 19, 2008, 07:45 PM
Note that both FMJ loads would probably shoot through two BG's if you stacked them just right!
People read too many gun rags and when they read something that says a certain round doesn't penetrate deep enough they think that means it will bounce off a person. As you write, people who have never seen the results of a shooting would be surprised at the penetration of even those rds the "experts" claim won't penetrate.
Oct 2, 1996. We were making an entry into a hotel room when the BG began firing at us with a TEC-9 in one hand and a Colt Mustang .380 in the other. He fired a total of 11 rds. He then reloaded the .380 and put a FMJ thru his head. It entered in front of and at the top of his right ear and exited at the rear of and top of his left ear. It then went thru the arm of a large cushion type chair and hit a dry walled wall. It traveled thru about 2" of the dry wall when it struck a 2X4 wood stud, stopping after an 1" in the stud.
The 9mm ammo was FMJ stuff too. When we were digging the bullets out of the walls you couldn't tell by the depth of the bullet what kind of bullet it was until we got it dug out.
One of our guys shot a BG at about arms distance using a PPK loaded with Silvertips. The rd hit the BG center mass just below the rig cage and came to rest fully expanded up against the spine. DRT.

greenjeans
April 19, 2008, 07:56 PM
If it isn't, Ruger sure has people standing in line for a lot of expensive paper weights.

ByAnyMeans
April 19, 2008, 07:57 PM
Check out Buffalo Bore or Double Tap. If you want a more household
name then gold dot and hornady xtp are good as well as the federal hydroshock

Sato Ord
April 19, 2008, 08:02 PM
I'd like to say just one thing about the penetration issue, if you can actually call it an issue.

Put your hand on your chest, thaaaat's right, right over the center. Feel that rhythmic thumping? We call that your "heart". On a person of average height and weight that heart thing is about three inches back from where your hand is right now. Even if a guy is as big as me, 6' 3" and 255 lbs, the heart is still no more than about four inches back.

Now, I'll agree that the heart is surrounded by a tough fibrous sack called the pericardium, but that ain't made of Kevlar and the bone in front of it, the sternum, isn't plate steel!:banghead:

The .380 is a nice load for self defense, especially if you have small hands, and especially if, like my wife, you have grip issues.

We have enough debate about penetrating power vs. actual stopping power raging over the 9mm and .45acp. Let's just not go there with this caliber.

JWarren
April 19, 2008, 08:15 PM
burr00@comcast.net isn't a troll. It seems that he is a guy that has some experience with firearms, but perhaps is lacking experience in some areas of firearms (ie Handguns.)

I just scanned through all of his posts on THR, and I do not get a "troll" feeling out of any of them.

Before anyone starts making accusations about someone being a troll, it is usually helpful to take a look at their past on THR. It may change your mind.


-- John

thunder173
April 19, 2008, 08:16 PM
Most European law enforcement, and a lot of military, carried the 9mm Kurtz, or 9mm Short,...aka .380 for decades. I can think of some of the finest SD pistols ever made that were carried and chambered in .380. I have personally carried a Walther PP, a PPK, a Beretta 84 for many years, and have see first hand what they are capable of. I carry a Keltec P3AT almost daily, and my wife's primary carry gun is is a Bersa in .380At SD distances, it is at least as effective as a .38 Special with the right rounds. My carry load is Federal low recoil HP's for the keltec,...and NO,..I wouldn't personally care to be shot by a .380,...or any other round,....again!

Black Majik
April 19, 2008, 08:18 PM
Naah, "Lethal .380" is akin to "skinny Rosie O'Donnell".

The answer to all caliber questions is .45 ACP.

Sato Ord
April 19, 2008, 08:20 PM
The answer to all caliber questions is .45 ACP.

I knew somebody out there liked that caliber as much as I do.

Notice that I defended the .380 caliber, didn't say I carried one!:evil:

dmxx9900
April 19, 2008, 08:44 PM
I do not have any personal experience with a .380 but from research on the internet I can conclude that it is a good defense caliber.
I will get a .380 eventually as a back-up since Bersa makes a small and concealable handgun that I could use when on the road as a glove box gun.
I prefer revolvers but I always welcome semi-autos too.

AMBASSADOR
April 19, 2008, 08:57 PM
As JWARREN states I do lack experience in the area of handguns,as for the fact that I at my late age I am just becoming acustom to owning my first handguns ever.I have owned firearms for over fourty years.I never really had a liking for handguns or a need for one.Due to circumstance I can shoulder a long arm.I have always known that a rifle or shotgun will out match any handgun.I always chose a 12ga shotgun for H.D
I currently own a 22Mark III AND A 686P 357MAG(LONG SHOTS) and just aquired a Walther PPK/S.380 for HD.The round has been around for about70yrs or more.I just thought that if it was good enough to stay popular,it just might still work.
What good is a large caliber in a small house,when a .380 will work?Hits count and noboby will die from pneumonia if missed by a large caliber.:scrutiny:

glocker82
April 19, 2008, 09:04 PM
Fellow I know Popped his g-friend's ex as he was pointing a shotgun at him. DRT.

huh??

JWarren
April 19, 2008, 09:08 PM
Quote:
Fellow I know Popped his g-friend's ex as he was pointing a shotgun at him. DRT.

huh??


Whatever it is, it sounds bad.


-- John

Car Knocker
April 19, 2008, 09:10 PM
What good is a large caliber in a small house,when a .380 will work?Hits count and noboby will die from pneumonia if missed by a large caliber.
A large caliber in a small house is just as good, if not better, than a small caliber. Nobody will die of pneumonia if missed by any caliber, large or small.

NomDeWeb
April 19, 2008, 09:12 PM
Fellow I know Popped his g-friend's ex as he was pointing a shotgun at him. DRT.

Seemed to be fairly lethal.

Please elaborate.

RickH
April 19, 2008, 09:22 PM
DRT=Dead right there? Dead right then? Del Rio, Texas?

flatdog
April 19, 2008, 09:41 PM
Hey, burr00

Your question can be more complicated than it at first seems. It's more about the immediate incapacitation of an assailant than lethality, and which cartridge in which caliber is most suitable.

Do you expect to carry concealed or keep it at home or both? You will probably get better answers if you can be more specific as to your needs.

There are plenty of people here who will help.


flatdog

AMBASSADOR
April 19, 2008, 10:43 PM
This would be used only in the home for Self defense.The gun has COR-BON loaded in two clips.

MICHAEL T
April 19, 2008, 11:32 PM
This would be used only in the home for Self defense.The gun has COR-BON loaded in two clips.
my PPK/S is on nightstand loaded with corbon DPX . I own 5, 380's and trust any one of them to do the job if needed. All have been tested and loaded with DPX. Befor DPX used Corbon90grHP

isp2605
April 20, 2008, 12:03 AM
carried the 9mm Kurtz
It's "Kurz", not "Kurtz".
Kurtz was a Col in "Apocalypse Now" played by Marlon Brando.
Kurz is German for short.

flatdog
April 20, 2008, 01:09 AM
Strictly at home
This would be used only in the home for self defense. The gun has COR-BON loaded in two clips.

That seems to be a sound combination as far as it goes. But it disposes of much less power than the 686P in .357 mag. with COR-BON ammunition.

No handgun is to be depended upon for the fabled " one shot stop " and to trade the .357 mag. performance level for that of the .380 is a huge step in the wrong direction, in my opinion.

Do you control the PPK/S better than the 686P, or are you adept with either?

Forgive all the questions, but I'm trying to get a clearer picture of your situation.

The Tourist
April 20, 2008, 01:38 AM
huge step in the wrong direction, in my opinion

It depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

For example, a Dodge Viper is certainly a force to be reckoned with on the highway. That is, unless you're simply trying to commute and spend the absolute least amount on gas, repairs, insurance, parking, etc. Given those parameters, a Volkswagen Beetle might be the better choice.

And so it is here. I'm not trying to be the best gunfighter. I'm not a hitman or a mercenary. I'm trying to complete the day in safety and security.

My actions against an agressor are backwards, not forwards. Call Steven Seagal if you're looking for senseless urban violence, not The Tourist.

In my case, a small, readily available, compact, reliable pistol with better sights and smooth trigger, set a bit heavy to compensate for adrenaline, that dispenses modern hollowpoints is clearly my choice.

Grab me and scare me and you get eight shots of .355 diameter Gold Dots. If you survive that, I'll be sending another seven of them along shortly.

I don't see a downside.

Cave Dweller
April 20, 2008, 01:49 AM
I should hope a .380 is lethal, I'm waiting my 10 days to pick up the ppk I just bought (not ppk/s) Any ammo suggestions?
*runs off to check out silver tip and corbon*

The Tourist
April 20, 2008, 02:07 AM
Any ammo suggestions?

This might sound silly, but the gun is going to tell you.

For example, several years ago, the bullet called "the flying ashtray" was supposed to be the hot set-up. So I bought a box of the older aluminum case Blazers in the 200 grain hollowpoint. And they were hot.

My 1911 Colt Enhanced hated them. I actually thought about buying a stronger recoil spring just to better the slide timing.

In the end, a normal 225 grain hollowpoint with a rounded ogive turned out to be the best choice.

My H&K likes SW.40 Golden Sabers. My SIG P-229 eats aluminum Blazer SW .40 hollowpoints like a kid eats candy. Go figure.

I usually buy a pistol, and shoot it with the traditional load for a bit to loosen it up, if that's really possible for something made of metal. In this case, I'd find some traditional FMJ. I happen to like American Eagle 95 grain hardball for this chore. It seems to work in a large number of .380's without a hitch.

If functioning is a severe problem, it goes back to the gunshop. If it simply needs a "reliability package" and better sights, off it goes to Terry.

I hate to say this, but I simply look at my self defense pistols as "tools." I have other toys for a fun day at the range.

DougDubya
April 20, 2008, 02:22 AM
Flatdog, the .357 is great for putting down bad guys, but fired in a house, I'd rather not have my eardrums gushing blood after saving my family.

Actually, my family would probably suffer from the racket of a .357 too. Then again, everyone yelling to equalize the pressure in their ears might even prevent the need for a .357 Magnum being fired.

Plus, the PPK/S has much less for a criminal to grab onto than a 686, has a manual off switch in case he does get it loose somehow, and with 7 .380's in his thoracic cavity, he'll have trouble.

flatdog
April 20, 2008, 06:19 AM
My questions are designed with an eye to helping a man who intends to survive a lethal encounter in his own home if necessary. While there are many considerations I'm going with what he has presented so far.

Provided the user is familiar enough with his weapon to run it safely and effectively. It then becomes a matter of the power of the cartridge to penetrate to the vital organs from any angle presented and disrupt their function. In order to cause as near instantaneous incapacitation as possible.

Lethality does not equate to instantaneous incapacitation, they are by no means the same thing. The intruder may well succumb to his wounds minutes or hours later. But it will be of cold comfort if he has time to finish his assault before he does.

He's in another man's house intent on illegal activity so he's already primed for fight or flight. It is unwise to assume that multiple rounds from a pistol will have the desired effect or that a reload will fix things if the first 7 or so prove ineffective. The body tends to shut down it's pain response after multiple insults as a protective measure. What is the intruder doing while your shooting/reloading? Heaven forbid there is more than one to deal with.

The question as to the choice of weapon has nothing to do with macho posturing, hit men, or anything other than trying to gather enough information to be of help.

denfoote
April 20, 2008, 06:44 AM
...and just aquired a Walther PPK/S.380 for HD

Good choice!!
If you do your part Fritz Walthers finest will do it's!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/denfoote/NewPPKGrips001small.jpg

USMCDK
April 20, 2008, 06:47 AM
I suggest that if you will use said round... BTW I am buying the wife a .380 soon enough for SD/HD (self Defense/Home Defense)... Get a JHP that has the lil silver or blue ball in it to assist feeding and expansion upon impact/penetration. Or you could use "Federal Premium HST-1" ammo that expands into a 6-fingered-starfish and that usually slows the round down emensly (or at least that's what it advertises) Anyone want to give more detail about said ammo or the name of the ammo with the plastic ball embeeded into JHP???

BTW I also will agree that this "Member" isn't being trollish. he's new just like all of us where once. I for one came here asking some pretty silly newbie question when I first started posting. Hell I still ask newbie questions from time to time. For instance I just found out what IMHO means yesterday cause I finally had to ask.

So c'mon guys keep things to the THR standards and let us all warmly welcome our new bretherine.

Welcome to THR Car Knocker may you visits here bring you further into enlightenment about firearms and all the knowledge you could ever want about them and more. Good luck and great shooting.

Sincerely and respectfully,

USMCDK

SLMPDcitycop
April 20, 2008, 07:17 AM
I handled a homicide a few years back where a guy was shot with a .380 point blank range 5 times. If I recall correctly two were center mass, and the three were along his theigh, which hit an artery. He's pushing up daisies, so yeah a .380 is a deadly round.

alpha6164
April 20, 2008, 10:54 AM
My two favorite rounds are the Corbon DPX and the DoubleTap JHP. The DT uses Golddots 90gr and makes those little puppies fly at 1000fps out of a keltec and almost 1100fps out of a 3.5" barrel.

Chester32141
April 20, 2008, 11:58 AM
From the responses here I guess I'm safe using a Mak chambered in 9x18 ... I figure if it worked in Eastern Europe for 50 years it oughta work here ... :)

jocko
April 20, 2008, 12:10 PM
one awsome round IMO. It will be the round of my choice when I get my Ruger lcp and my Kahr P380. If you can't carry a bigger caliber all the time the 380 is unbeatable IMO. I will be able to carry either of the above 2 any time.

Cannonball888
April 20, 2008, 01:00 PM
It's "Kurz", not "Kurtz".
Kurtz was a Col in "Apocalypse Now" played by Marlon Brando.
Kurz is German for short.
The horror...the horror

I use Buffalo Bore .380 +P in my FIE Titan II and Corbon DPX in my Keltec P3AT

The Tourist
April 20, 2008, 01:12 PM
It's "Kurz", not "Kurtz"

Boy, boys--you play nice or I'm going to take that thesaurus away from both of you.

BTW, you're both wrong. The proper phrase is "9mm Corto."

Heavy Metal Hero
April 20, 2008, 01:16 PM
BTW, you're both wrong. The proper phrase is "9mm Corto."

:rolleyes:

Cannonball888
April 20, 2008, 01:17 PM
BTW, you're both wrong. The proper phrase is "9mm Corto."
Corto? Doesn't sound german to me.

http://www.shooters24.de/uploaded/305559.jpg

Heavy Metal Hero
April 20, 2008, 01:19 PM
Cannonball,

I am pretty sure The Tourist was making a funny.

Mr_Rogers
April 20, 2008, 01:24 PM
burr00@comcast.net
A 380 will work and the Walther is a good choice. I prefer the Sig. You will need to practice, quite a lot initially, to get the best out of these guns.

First, there are often two types of magazines available, one with a "pinky" extension, one without. The "pinky" extension helps a great deal in controlling these small pistols since it provides more grip area.

Due to the small grip and a noticeable, but not unpleasant, snappy recoil the pistols tend to be a bit "frisky" in the hand at first. Use a firm grip. Point shooting is very simple with these guns which is good because the sights are not designed for quick target acquisition.

Bullet choice is covered elsewhere. Magazine capacity is low but it is safe to carry a round in the chamber.

Due to its small size you may find yourself carrying this pistol when you would leave other guns behind - that is always a plus.

AMBASSADOR
April 20, 2008, 01:29 PM
I would like to thank all who responded to my queery. Judging by the overall response,I have made the right choice in selecting a .380ACP for my HD firearm.
My personal preferance had always been a .380,the Walther was always on my list of favorites,but I thought it would be a waste of money for a gun that would sit in a drawer most of the time.My original choice was going to be a Bersa Thunder.
When I went out to buy I could not locate any,my FFL told me I would be first on the list if and when they arrived.He gave me a good deal on the PPK/S with holster I figured what the hell why not,this purchase just added to my choice of a third very reliable handgun.
Oh the wife lover the gun,she said that she is not intimidated by it at all,there just may be a Bersa in my near future.

Lobotomy Boy
April 20, 2008, 01:33 PM
I can envision a time in which just about all of us own a good, reliable .380 for those times when our normal 9mm/.40/.45/.357/etc. carry guns are just too bulky for the clothes we have to wear in certain circumstances. And provided we have loaded those guns with good, strong ammo rather than cheapo Wolf target ammo, I suspect that we will all be well protected.

That said, whenever circumstances allow me to carry a .45 ACP, I carry one of my .45s. That is my favorite caliber to shoot, and I know that I'll be as well protected as possible, short of carrying a long gun.

The Tourist
April 20, 2008, 02:03 PM
Cannonball, I am pretty sure The Tourist was making a funny.

Thank you, HMH. You have to remember that humor is subjective. Before the end of this thread, three teenagers are going to write in complaining I am preaching on the "Corto issue." I wouldn't even call it an "issue."

Truth be told, I don't look at my ammo boxes every day. I most likely would have added that "T" and called the cartriadge a 9mm Kurtz, myself. In fact, I have to stop for a minute when I use the name "Hydra Shok" because I do not use that brand, and I cannot usually remember the correct spelling.

I can spend three hours detailing my Harley and the first comment from most idiots is "You missed a spot." I remind them that their spot covers their entire car. I seem to be a magnet for the levity-challenged.

MCgunner
April 20, 2008, 02:11 PM
.380 is just as deadly as 9mm,

No way. However, it is my minimum. I much prefer the 9mm, however, and it's easy enough to pocket carry. My 9 is smaller and lighter than most .380s, P3ATs and LCPs excepted. I have a .380, and am thinking of getting a P3AT just so I'll have the option. It is capable with a good load. I'm not one of those FMJ guys, but then, people don't often wear much more than T shirts down this way. Clothing could matter in winter in some areas.

Mr_Rogers
April 20, 2008, 02:29 PM
Tourist,
Good point - this has to be one of the most confusing cartridges.

Walther PPK/S marking tries to cover everything, "9mmKurz/380ACP"

Bernadelli Model 80 marking, 380ACP.

Beretta Model 70 marking, simply, 380 (!!!!!)

Sig 230 marking, 9mm Kurz.

Mauser HsC marking, 9mmKurz.

Interestingly, no 9mmCorto on the Italian pistols - even though you are quite correct.

The Tourist
April 20, 2008, 02:34 PM
no 9mmCorto on the Italian pistols

Granted, but oh our stilettos...

Mr_Rogers
April 20, 2008, 03:03 PM
Tourist,
Italian cross-dressers??

Actually, I love anything with Italian style, cars, women, food and guns.

To keep this post related - if Beretta bought out an updated Model 70 in DA/SA I would be first in the queue to buy. That has got to be one of the World's most elegant pistols.

johnle
April 20, 2008, 03:16 PM
.380 is the minimum, but if i need to use it in a SD situation I would not hesitate.

Just PRACTICE A LOT.

For me if I was allowed to carry concealed (the san francisco bay area sucks for CCW), I'd probably carry a .380 since they are smaller. I'm not a big guy myself so it's hard to conceal well, I'm 5'10 and 135lbs.

But at home I'll reach for my .45 ACP every time. I shoot well with it, and I like the fact the bullet is 230gr of hollow point hurt heading out the barrel.

The Ruckus
April 20, 2008, 04:31 PM
Obvious troll, please don't feed him.

flatdog
April 20, 2008, 05:20 PM
He's not a troll.

Just a guy looking for answers. If you go back and read the previous posts in this thread I think you will find that to be true.

isp2605
April 20, 2008, 05:50 PM
Boy, boys--you play nice or I'm going to take that thesaurus away from both of you.
You mean German to English dictionary. A thesaurus is not for translating from one language to another.

BTW, you're both wrong. The proper phrase is "9mm Corto."
You're reading out of your Italian to English translator.
"Corto" is Italian for short.
"Kurz" is German to short.

Guitargod1985
April 20, 2008, 06:07 PM
Anyone want to give more detail about said ammo or the name of the ammo with the plastic ball embeeded into JHP???

I believe it is the Corbon Pow'r Ball.

ronwill
April 20, 2008, 06:15 PM
In the days of the Mafia one of the rounds of choice for executions was a .22 subsonic. Quiet and effective in that situation. Most people will tell you to use the largest caliber you are comfortable with. While it is true the stopping power of a .380 is negligible, it can get the job done.

rcmodel
April 20, 2008, 06:23 PM
Pow`Rball

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=74838

.380 is only a 70 grain bullet.

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10020

rcmodel

The Tourist
April 20, 2008, 06:29 PM
You're reading out of your Italian to English translator.

Actually, I did it from memory. I saw either a pistol or an old box of ammo in 1979 in the old Castle Rock Shooters Supply of Middleton, Wisconsin.

I have never seen it on a box of ammo or a firearm before or since.

BTW, my Aunt Clara is all the translator I require...

wrc
April 20, 2008, 06:59 PM
Call Steven Seagal if you're looking for senseless urban violence, not The Tourist.

That makes the thread right there!

.380 does the job, still, after all these years. There are no magic bullets. Most .380 pistols are lighter and more concealable for the price point than 9mm. For a self defense encounter, where the goal is to disengage and escape harm, I think it works fine.

If I didn't have concealment issues to worry about, I'd definitely go for a 5.56mm rifle. That's just me, of course.

isp2605
April 21, 2008, 09:20 AM
I have never seen it on a box of ammo or a firearm before or since.
Probably Spanish ammo if marked with Corto.

1911 guy
April 21, 2008, 09:56 AM
.380 will work. If it didn't, I wouldn't let my wife carry one.

A lot of noise is made about this being better than that, when the truth is a whole lot of "obsolete" and "ineffective" calibers have put a whole lot of folks in the ground. Sure, I do prefer a 1911 in .45acp. But that doesn't mean I think a .380 is a plaything. It's a gun and will kill like it was designed to.

Oh, and everybody is right. The .380 is also known as the "9mm short". In german, it's Kurz and in italian it's Corto. What's on the box depands on where it was made.

XDKingslayer
April 21, 2008, 10:16 AM
The answer to all caliber questions is .45 ACP.

I'm going to bet that stupid answers such as this is the reason for the question.

Going by the outlook of the pistol forums, the .380 is starting to become pretty popular. And you still have people like this who answer caliber questions with assnine responce like this.

Look at each and every .380 post in the last year and there is at least one stupid reply just like the one I quoted.

leathermanwave
April 21, 2008, 01:04 PM
Going by the outlook of the pistol forums, the .380 is starting to become pretty popular. And you still have people like this who answer caliber questions with assnine responce like this. I believe this is because the guns not the caliber.

RichardB
April 21, 2008, 05:32 PM
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2004/oct2004/oct04leb.htm#page_15:confused:

Fish828
April 21, 2008, 05:33 PM
any round can kill. period. end of story.

makarovnik
April 21, 2008, 09:57 PM
About the same as a .38 special.

klausmotown
April 22, 2008, 06:13 AM
In the Summer I carry a Bersa T380 CC and don't at all feel under gunned. I can put 3 shots rapidly center mass or head on a target at 15-20 feet as fast as I can squeeze em off. I have larger bore CCW guns however for Motorcycle riding in warm weather, the Bersa gets he nod. Side note, the NIB Satin Nickel CZ 83 I bought recently is designated "9 mm Court".

Fer
April 22, 2008, 10:09 PM
How about this 9mm Browning, easier than the German, Italian or spanish tanslations.:) By the way Corto applies for Spanish and Italian.LOL

Flopsy
April 22, 2008, 11:46 PM
.380 is only a 70 grain bullet

My Golden Sabers are 102 grains. :)

The Tourist
April 23, 2008, 12:38 AM
By the way Corto applies for...Italian.

My Aunt Clara agrees. LOL.

However, isn't this part of any debate? After all, this cartridge is really a .355 ACP. A .38 SPL is actually a .357 SPL. A .223 is actually a .224. You can buy .308 bullets for reloading that actually mic at .311 or .312 for the Kalashnikov market. Semantically, I never owned a 'switchblade.' Mine never had a 'switch,' it was more of a button...

And fifty years ago, a .380 ACP might not have been a good idea. It wasn't until Super-Vel gave us insight into making cartridges push their limits. You might not have a ballistic pendulum flying off its hinges, but our modern day hollowpoint construction makes the cartridge lethal, indeed.

With good shot placement, I believe the same argument might be true for a SilverTip hollowpoint for a .32 ACP.

Aceoky
April 23, 2008, 01:35 AM
My Golden Sabers are 102 grains

As are my cast lead round nose bullets for the .380 102 grains :cool:

Cron
April 23, 2008, 01:17 PM
Are we really concerned with lethality? I'd think stopping power is more important. If a BG threatens my life my first concern is to stop him from doing what he's doing. A .380 will certainly kill, but how quickly if bullet placement is not precise.
I own .380, 9mm and .357. The .357 is always within my reach. Bullet placement is paramount but under stress it ain't so easy.

The Tourist
April 23, 2008, 01:27 PM
think stopping power

Obviously you are right.

However, as serious shooters we all know the disclaimers.

For example, we all know that we cannot brandish, we must be trying to stop a credible attack on ourselves or those in our care, we would have trouble fleeing, we had to be sure of our backstop, it must be of reasonable distances, etc.

I think we condense these factors down to just saying "a shooting situation." We know what the poster meant.

Additionally, when we say "lethal," we mean "fight stopper." Will the cartridge in question stop the fight and put the aggressor on his back.

This is the crux of the experiments after the Miami FBI shooting. The felon was in the act of dying, but still upright for more than 90 seconds and he was firing back.

Fer
April 23, 2008, 03:10 PM
I carry a 851SS because it is staineless steel mostly and it is also small, but after reading this thread I will go home and switch with my BDA.380

Fer
April 23, 2008, 04:02 PM
I was checking out some ammo vendors and one of them had Aguila 95gr, the specs where 900+ feet/sec and 220 energy, this is supposed to be good correct? it was full metal jacket, but at these specs it is faster and transfers more energy than the "standard" .380 specs correct? could it be considered a hot round? Do any of you have any info on this ammo? Please advise.

Fer
April 23, 2008, 04:20 PM
Here is the link.

http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/aguila.html

Sorry, it is 945 feet per sec and 188 energy. I think I got confused with some corbon specs. Still what is your experience with aguila.

Thank you,

Black Majik
April 23, 2008, 04:24 PM
I'm going to bet that stupid answers such as this is the reason for the question.

Going by the outlook of the pistol forums, the .380 is starting to become pretty popular. And you still have people like this who answer caliber questions with assnine responce like this.

Look at each and every .380 post in the last year and there is at least one stupid reply just like the one I quoted.

My whole post was completely tongue-in-cheek. I apologize if it's construed otherwise. I really don't mind carrying a .380, but as others have stated there are many pistols out that are the same size as a standard .380 pistol chambered in larger calibers.

Whether it's .380, 9mm, .22 or .45 it's all about shot placement anyways right?

kentucky bucky
April 24, 2008, 12:31 AM
Are you 10 feet tall and bullet proof, or is this a trick question?

ARTiger
April 24, 2008, 12:59 AM
I like the .380 round and many of the pistols it's chambered in. That said, if it's possible to carry a larger caliber please do.

While the chances of someone living through a properly placed .380 hit are not good, the chance of them taking a hit and being able to shoot back (if armed) are more than I would care to chance. They probably will end up dead. I'd prefer not to accompany them.

Clothing choices are secondary to carrying the biggest caliber I can possibly hide well and maintain some semblence of comfort.

Summer in my part of the south is as uncomfortable as anyplace on the globe and I find a way to at least have a very shootable 9mm or .38 +p on my person most all times.

Realizing that many folks aren't so committed, I would advise carrying whatever you can and the largest caliber possible. If that's .380 or even .32 ACP versus not carrying at all you are much better off.

Human nature I guess is to look for the easiest way to get by. Our concealed weapon is something that 99.99% of us will never need to draw for serious purposes. Many will CCW their entire adult lives and never need it. If properly considered, drawing your weapon means someone or something is about to take your life and you need to stop that. Personally, I'd take a .380 versus a sharp stick, but would rather have a .357 or .45.

ldp4570
April 24, 2008, 11:16 AM
I have several guns in different calibers to choose from, and my first personal handgun was a BDA380. I still find this a very capable carry weapon. I just recently purchased a Beretta 85FS, and it has replaced the BDA380 as a carry gun due in part to the thinner grip frame. There are times when my CCW must be extreamly low profile, I then strap on a Walther PPK in .32ACP. I have never felt outgunned or undergunned with the latter. One its about situational awareness, and understanding the capabilities of the weapon at hand, and last but not least proper bullet placement.

One other thing, regardless of which firearms your taking to the range to play with, always take your primary CCW along and practice, practice, practice. Just like with unarmed combatives training, if you don't practice, it won't work when you need it to.

Fer
April 24, 2008, 01:05 PM
How about a reply to the aguila question, or it is not comercialized in the states?:confused:

Fer
April 25, 2008, 06:26 PM
Guess not:uhoh:

CA2005
April 26, 2008, 12:56 AM
Lack of experience or not...this is an idiotic question.

Comanche180
April 26, 2008, 11:46 AM
A lot of the time I have carried a .32 cal pistol, but since I practice a lot, I am confident of placement. The .32s I own have 7 to 10 rounds in the mag so I can make a lot of holes if necessary. I also at times carry a .380ACP or a 9mm. I never carry a .45ACP in spite of the "stopping power", mine are just to big for me to carry. I am comfortable with the penetrating power of the lesser calibers, I probably don't watch enough movies.

The Tourist
April 26, 2008, 12:11 PM
My whole post was completely tongue-in-cheek.

There's where we disagree. A forum should be about discussion. And we shouldn't be smug about assuming everyone knows as much about a topic as some of us insiders. I answer questions all day long about average topics clients could easily glean from Blade magazine. Not everybody reads Blade.

Additionally, while I agree with probably +75% of the "conventional wisdom" I see here, some of it will draw my objection simply because I have personally seen evidence to the contrary.

In fact, if we were having this discussion in the 1970's, I might even post that a .380 was a lousy cartridge for self defense. We didn't have any of the newer advancements in bullets like Gold-Dots, Golden Sabers or Cor-Bon.

And let's face it, real men were a lot tougher then. Shooting them with a .355 slug would have just made them mad. :D

As I have said before, I know nothing about shotguns. I have only owned one of them. In all honesty, I don't know why some shotguns have rifled barrels--but if I said that to some people here, I'd get laughed off the forum.

And the laughing would probably be done by the same people who know nothing about knives.

Personally, this subject on the .380 has been one of our best threads. More and more people are carrying CCW and discussion on calibers is essential. I've learned many facts/opinions in this thread.

Soybomb
April 26, 2008, 01:43 PM
I read somewhere that .22's account for a large percentage of firearm deaths, so a .380 is at least as lethal I would think.
This illustrates why you may hear bad things about the .380. .22 shorts can be lethal but people don't consider them powerful enough to do enough damage to stop an attacker quickly. Dead in the hospital 24 hours later isn't what we're hoping for. .380 seems to be about the same. A .38 special provides a significant increase in capacity to damage tissue reliably.

'd like to say just one thing about the penetration issue, if you can actually call it an issue.

Put your hand on your chest, thaaaat's right, right over the center. Feel that rhythmic thumping? We call that your "heart". On a person of average height and weight that heart thing is about three inches back from where your hand is right now. Even if a guy is as big as me, 6' 3" and 255 lbs, the heart is still no more than about four inches back.

Now, I'll agree that the heart is surrounded by a tough fibrous sack called the pericardium, but that ain't made of Kevlar and the bone in front of it, the sternum, isn't plate steel!
Do attackers often present their heart as an easy to hit target? The entire reason the 12+" thing came about was too many failure to stops from this older view. The reality is attackers stand at angles, hold weapons in front of their bodies meaning you have to shoot through arms, and bullets don't always wind up taking a straight path.

Using your logic any bullet that does over what, 6-8" of penetration would exit the body in many shootings? This isn't the way it works. There was a study in the 1991 Wound Ballistics Review Jounal by Eugene Wolberg where he checked out the real world performance of 28 shots of the 147 gr winchester load in those shot by the san diego pd. This load does something like 14" in gelatin off the top of my head. The average length of the wound path was 13.2" Two rounds had penetrated to 13.5-14.5" and were stopped just under the skin. Wolberg speculated that they could have penetrated more deeply but that the skin has a "holding in" effect. For as many times as I've read people say "12 inches is excessive penetration" i think its quite telling that out of 28 wounds the average is so high. The most shallow wound was 10", and the deepest was 17" Neither of those two were about to exit the body. If penetration were as easy as taking a ruler to the side of the body and going "yup, 5 inches should do it", I think we would have seen different results of how the bullets actually behave in the body.

neviander
April 26, 2008, 02:27 PM
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j249/mandaj2679/trinity-blast.jpg
If it's good enough for Trinity, it's good enough for me. :cool:

(Beretta Cheetah pictured above)

krs
April 26, 2008, 04:30 PM
I think that this entire thread is just a way for people who find it inconvenient to carry large handguns to feel better about their puny preferences.

There's another thread about lethality of the .22 lr that's more obviously in the same vein as this one.

Being shot will not necessarily stop a person's ability to continue to act, or to walk, run, or fire a gun. Sure the lucky "shot placement" could do that, and so could a brick that fell from a passing truck - so what? Without a traumatic SHOCK a person intent on survival will be able to take the wound, if he even notice the wounding, and keep on trucking.

By shock I mean the sort of impact felt if a person were whumped right in his solar plexus with a full swung baseball bat. Can't you see that something like that would serve to stop action? Haven't any of you ever felt such a traumatic impact?

You want to go "bang" and have the bad guy play dead.

I submit that the only concealed carryable pistol cartridge that will cause such a shock, even if the recipient is hit solidly in his shoulder, his hip, even his arm is the .45 acp with 230 gr bullets.

All of this is just a bunch of people without a clue about shooting people or being shot telling each other "There there, your little gun will be enough. Why, you could even use a littler one so long as you be sure to use to frumped up so called modern magic bullets.

The Tourist
April 26, 2008, 04:39 PM
feel better about their puny preferences.

I weigh 273 pounds. As a bill collector, I used to pack a Series 70, nickel plated Colt .45 ACP in what was known at that time as a Jackass Rig. I believe now it's call some form of Galco product or even The Miami Vice rig.

To balance the weight, I also carried three, fully loaded nickel plated magazines under the other arm.

I am big enough to lug all that metal with a light summer sport coat. Do you know anyone that manages to wear that for very long? I'm lucky that particular job only lasted two years.

And that's the point. It's not comfortable, and since my next job was only plant security instead of deadbeat townies, I flat out didn't need that much.

I started with a Colt Officers ACP and worked my way down.

However, most people are not looking for offensive weapons, but defensive weapons. Their goal is to back up and flee from trouble, not actively engage it.

Car Knocker
April 26, 2008, 05:35 PM
I submit that the only concealed carryable pistol cartridge that will cause such a shock, even if the recipient is hit solidly in his shoulder, his hip, even his arm is the .45 acp with 230 gr bullets.
Thanks for the humor! I needed that today.

By the way, I pocket-carry a .45ACP much of the time.

Okiecruffler
April 27, 2008, 12:37 AM
At one time I had this weird love affair with the .380, actually had 13 different flavors to shoot it out of. Never felt terribly undergunned because I could provide pretty quick follow-up shots. But I've since then seen the light and carry a 45acp with 230gr bullets because if it so much as grazes the tip of a finger the shock is so severe that the top of the targets head will fly off.

Actually I started carrying the 45 because I like it and it's easier to reload for. There is no, and I mean NO pistol round (well, okay maybe the 500SW) that I would think of as an instant stopper. Arsenic kills, but I wouldn't want to hand a poisoned cup of tea to the attacker and wait around.
Stopping an attacker with a pistol has always been about shot placement. If you can do it good and fast everytime with a 380 that'll beat someone who can do it everynow and then mostly with a 45. Secret is the same way you get to Carnagie Hall.

AFWIW, the only real answer is Chuck Norris.

Flopsy
April 27, 2008, 05:35 PM
"I think that this entire thread is just a way for people who find it inconvenient to carry large handguns to feel better about their puny preferences."

Well, I submit that your entire post is just a way for you to feel better about your own preference.

There, balance is restored to the force. :)

The Tourist
April 27, 2008, 05:53 PM
your entire post...feel better...There, balance is restored to the force.

C'mon, let's not be too hard on the lad.

Personally, I also disagree with him. But it is a valid point of view.

I have friends my age (mid fifties) who do not understand that while I can buy any knife on the planet I choose one with a 1.5 inch blade.

I do not know where he lives. Perhaps his area is rife with gang bangers and drug addicts. If that is the case, I'd probably tote a .45 or a .40 with some very sophisticated hollowpoints to punch through the haze of their PCP state of mind.

Perhaps he only owns one gun, and it has to do everything. A .45 in a 1911 format is probably a good start.

I simply have a few handguns, and I just pick my choice. As I have stated, I am not a soldier, or a cop, or a mercenary. A .380 ACP and quality ammunition suits my lifestyle.

Cave Dweller
May 1, 2008, 01:18 AM
380 is less likely to bother the neighbors should I miss:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeee4yksfdw

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