[MicroBalrog]

I'm not here to troll or stir up trouble...........


I typically lurk here just to see what is being said and get a feeling for your opinions and what not, know your enemy and all that as I am a republican/conservative at heart. That being said I don't post here to push my agenda, disagree, fight, troll or do anything that would take away from your discussions. No flame wars from me.

Anyway I just felt I needed to post regarding this poor person's encounter.

I just wanted to say that I am sooooo sorry that you had to experience what you did and I hope that it doesn't haunt you forever. Bad things happen sometimes and there is nothing we can do about them.

I am a gun owner and extremely pro gun pro self defense but before you even think about carrying a firearm you need to mentally prepare yourself for the responsibility involved. You need training, practice and the will to use it as a self defense item. You need to know the laws and most of all you need to know yourself. Don't make a rash decision to run out and buy a gun or change your belief's based on the anger, fear and other emotions you are feeling. In the long run you may do more harm than good.

All that being said if you want some advice on how to go about it feel free to email me or drop by www.thehighroad.org The people over there are generally friendly and won't bite. They will also give you so much information and advice you will have reading to put you to sleep for a long time.

My suggestion is you try doing some shooting for fun first and see if it is something you want to work up to in terms of a defensive weapon. Remember most of us shoot and own weapons for fun and pleasure primarily. We do carry for defense or will defend our homes but more likely than not we shoot and own guns for the pleasure of it.

I believe gun rights should be absolute. You have been or are a MMM member. Two sides of the coin. Just take the time to make an informed decision before letting everything you believe in fall to the wayside. Just because we don't agree on firearms and self defense etc. doesn't mean that I don't respect your beliefs and I don't think anybody should make drastic belief changes due to fear, anger or any other emotion. We would love to have you come over to "our side" and any one of us would gladly offer support, just take things slowly.

As for whether a gun would have helped. I don't know, I wasn't there. If you had a gun pressed into your ribs there isn't much you could of done, armed or not. The most important thing we as gun owners learn is situational awareness and that may have been just as valuable.

Once again please don't take this as a crazy gun nut insensitive republican using this situation to spout political/social agenda as that is not my intent. My heart just went out to you and only wanted to offer some support and insight.

You will not find me trolling your boards and trying to corrupt any of your discussions as I don't think that would be beneficial to anybody involved.

Please take care and as I said don't be afraid to come visit www.thehighroad.org, I promise we won't bite. We might have a few crazy members but doesn't every family.

Thanks for the chance to post. I hope I have not ruffled too many feathers here.

Chris

[Chipperman]

Thanks for posting it. The link on the other thread would not work for me. Stupid work computer. :(

[Geech]

So... Has he been banned yet?

[falconer]

It would appear that the DU is having a Columbus meeting, 100 yards from MY range. Oh the temptation...

[AK103K]

"So... Has he been banned yet?


Just saying something like this will get you banned there,

".....as I am a republican/conservative at heart."

It did for me anyway. At least that was the only thing I could think of what got me banned. Then again, they are pretty touchy over there.

Just so you know, heres what they think of the High Road. :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=3836

[rock jock]

doesn't mean that I don't respect your beliefs
Overall, very well written. But I would have to disagree with this statement. I would say that I respect her RIGHT to her beliefs, but the philosophy of the antis is not something I can respect in any way.

[veloce851]

Geesh.. I just wasted a good 15 minutes of my life energy hours reading lots of poor grammar and garbled ramblings over there.

Quite frankly I would think spending any time trying to convince people that are not even interested in listening to your POV is a big waste of time.
Time this "lunatic Randite" could spend at the range :)

[Mannlicher]

Huh? did I miss something? :p

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

I only have 3 degrees and I just don't get what's going on over there most of the time.

I believe I should just stay here.

Regards,
Rabbit.

[MAKOwner]

I love the claims of "revisionist history" and such about the NRA about the 2nd being an individual right. LOL, now if that isn't funny I don't know what is. Every single piece of the original founders writings I've ever seen has been extremely pro-individual right... Where's the revision going on here? Where are the "un-revised" statements that support some half-assed collective reading of the 2nd Amendment? There aren't any... What about the several state constitutions ratified right around the same time that actually say individual in them? Have those been revised by the dastardly NRA?

Opposite of what these self proclaimed "intellectuals" like to claim, the 2nd Amendment is pretty damn clear. To then try to convince everyone that the individual rights argument is somehow revisionist and completely unreasonable, while they are spreading some thrown together argument, totally stretching any half-truth they can to support collective rights, is just plain laughable. It's one of the most contrived arguments I've heard in a long time. You know you're dealing with 100% grade-A idiots if they can't read the 2nd Amendment without deciding it's a Militia-only right.

Left- or right-wing, I've never seen a site filled with so many ninnies and kooks in my time online. Of course I don't go around surfing Nazi or similar sites either, so perhaps put up against the likes of that DU looks mainstream, LOL. It's ridiculous...

[KC]

At first i was thinking, "Wait, du.com? depleted uranium? must be some sort of artillery site....." (shows where *my* mind is.)

Then, "Wow, what an incredible number of pop-ups, that spawn in unending fashion."

Then, "Wow, the pop-ups are more coherent than, and sometimes preferable to, the writing here."

This is a guess on my part, but I will bet that a lot of poser...er, posters over there whine and moan about how "undemocratic" the Ca recall is. Anyone have the patients to check this for me? (How can it be undemocratic: voters equal to half the number of votes that Davis receivedin the last election signed a petition to dump him? This is direct democracy in action! Too bad we can't do the same to the state legislature, as well.)
I did find the one from someone who was complaining about how Al Sharpton and Gary Coleman were dismissed by some talk-show as not being genuine canidates. Revealing, but not exactly relevant.


KC

[ReadyontheRight]

Man...many of those DU folks sure have a lot of hate built up.

It would be nice if they had the wisdom to direct it toward their real enemies, but I guess they only have enough education to consider those of us who believe in the U.S. constitution their enemy.:banghead:

Reading that DU site is like watching a flock of seagulls fight over a garbage pile. It's semi-interesting, loud, ugly and it doesn't really affect you until one swoops over and s***s on you (sorry moderators -- self-edited, but I needed that for the analogy).

My hats off to those of you who attempt to go in and try to point out to them that there's better food out there than someone else's garbage.

[Andrew Wyatt]

Why are you guys posting over there anyway?


1. you will not change their minds.


2. your very presence over there is trolling.

3. by starting fights, you're giving us a bad name.


4. we're not a political site, except for the RKBA.

[SteyrAUG]

I would suggest taking a very careful look around before posting on DU.

Those people are nuts. And not the "my old crazy uncle joe" kinda nuts but the "We never went to the moon" and "The Republicans staged 9-11 to win support" kinda nuts.

Only on DU are there people still willing to give communism/socialism another try because "Hey, it might work this time." :rolleyes:

You don't wanna bother them with your views or your concerns about your freedom. They will stick their fingers in their ears and scream "Gore is my president" over and over. You'd be better off trying to teach your dog calculus then trying to get them to consider your views.

They certainly bear watching as their "peaceful protests" of groups like the WTO and the Earth First guys do more actual damage than all of the Klan rallies and skinhead groups combined.

[cslinger]

I don't normally post over there and wasn't trying to start anything. There was a distraught woman who got mugged and was thinking about getting a gun.

1)The lady was distraught, lending a helping offer is the right thing to do.
2)The lady is comtemplating firearm ownership, do you want her talking to those on DU about it.
3)I wasn't trolling, only offering a helping hand in case she wanted to learn more about firearms.

If you can bring just one person into a belief of RKBA and create just one more gun owner then you will have done more for RKBA then many years worth of NRA dues.

I don't plan on hanging out there, lord they give me a headache too.

Don't give up on everybody just because they fit into a broad group. Everybody can change and the right thing to do is offer a helping hand when somebody is down. That is the high road after all.

Geez, I don't know what's wrong with me today, I am just not feeling as cynical as usual. I will be better tomorrow, I promise.

Chris

[MicroBalrog]

2. your very presence over there is trolling.

Not mine, sorry, I've never broken a DU rule.:D

[Andrew Wyatt]

:rolleyes:

[SteyrAUG]

cslinger, wasn't trying to give you a hard time. Just wanted to give the crew a heads up before they go over there trying to be a nice guy.

This forum is full of well intentioned people who would love nothing more than to politely explain their positions to those who just might not understand.

[veloce851]

You'd be better off trying to teach your dog calculus then trying to get them to consider your views.

My cat just made a major breakthrough.. I believe the formula he discovered can actually be used to identify pricing patterns in the stock market.
Oh did I mention his name is Fibonacci :p

[cslinger]

No offense taken.

Believe me people as a rule drive me mad and I really do think their are many lost causes, but deep down I really think all it takes is cracking one tough nut now and then to make it worthwhile.

Besides sometimes some things are worth doing just because some things are worth doing. Nothing more, nothing less.

Hey call it my good deed for the month. I've met my quota so as far as everybody else is concered.......:cuss: 'Em.

Just kidding.:D

[Geech]

Notice how Benchley's arguments were nothing more than ad hominem attacks and straw men? Most of his posts were spent deriding and sneering at gun owners and the "powerful gun industry." It boggles my mind to think that this guy probably actually believes that tripe he spews.

[bfason]

Remember, if you convert a Democrat to a RKBA position, you get double points. ;)

OTOH, if arguing with willfully ignorant anti-self-defense bigots is not your bag, and it just makes you angry, then by all means, don't go there. Leave that battleground for the rest of us.

You have only so much energy to devote. Only you know what you can do best to advance freedom in this world. Maybe it's working 9-5 and simply taking care of yourself and your loved ones. Maybe you're a high-income person and can donate money to the various pro-2nd Amen groups. Maybe you are a student or intellectual with a gift for writing 100 letters to the editor in hopes that one or two will be published. Only you know what you can do.

Whatever it is, remember to do at least one thing every day.

[Moparmike]

My head feels lighter due to the number of neurons that committed suicide rather than put up with that tripe.

After having trolled on DU as SocialistGunOwner (trying to get them to convince me that my "newly found" Libertarian ideals were incorrect and to "Show me the light"), I was banned. I also was quite tired of encountering attacks of stupidity en mass. It was much like the "Yellow Horde" attack-style of China in the Korean Conflict (Police Action, War, Skermish, etc). I refuse to go over there again, and cannot stand how intolerant everyone is.


I would move if they took over the country. Go start my own country, and refuse to join the UN. Everyone is welcome to join, as long as certain Libertarian ideas are not challenged (Constitution stuff).

[MAKOwner]

You form a free country with a strong constitution and solidly established individual rights and I'm there whether the DU types take over here or not... Already too much of their BS in this country, only going downhill....

I want my own damn island...

[Don Gwinn]

What you do on other boards is your business. However, the way you represent THR on other boards could possibly affect your membership here.

THR does not do flame wars. Not ever. Not for any reason. THR members who start flame wars with other boards will find that they have a lot to deal with in a short time.

THR does not do trolling. We don't tolerate trolls on our board, and we don't expect DU to tolerate trolls on theirs. If you want to have an honest discussion, and they ban you, that's unfortunate. We wouldn't do it, ourselves, but that's our choice and they have the right to make theirs. If THR members are trolling, I have no sympathy when they get banned.

[duckfoot]

I went over there kind of thinking nothings that bad.


I was wrong









very





wrong









:eek:

[RCReecer]

by SteyrAUG on 14 August 2003
You don't wanna bother them with your views or your concerns about your freedom. They will stick their fingers in their ears and scream "Gore is my president" over and over. You'd be better off trying to teach your dog calculus then trying to get them to consider your views.

That has got to be one of the funniest and most true statements that I have read in a long time. After just seven minutes of reading posts on DU, I completely agree.

[gamegod86]

Originally posted by Don Gwinn

What you do on other boards is your business. However, the way you represent THR on other boards could possibly affect your membership here.

THR does not do flame wars. Not ever. Not for any reason. THR members who start flame wars with other boards will find that they have a lot to deal with in a short time.

THR does not do trolling. We don't tolerate trolls on our board, and we don't expect DU to tolerate trolls on theirs. If you want to have an honest discussion, and they ban you, that's unfortunate. We wouldn't do it, ourselves, but that's our choice and they have the right to make theirs. If THR members are trolling, I have no sympathy when they get banned.

Respectfully, I do not think that Chris represented THR in any way that was not positive.

His response was reasoned and reasonable. It was also kind.

He expicitly said that he was not flaming, nor would he be trolling. I believe that his past behavior has, and his future behavior will, prove this to be true.

Knowing Chris, I can't see him as "just stirring the pot." He (I'm sure) knows that 99.99% of the people at DU are "invincibly ignorant." If there is a reasonable person over there, (hey, it could happen!) they will see him and THR as a reasonable place. The unreasonable ones are lost causes anyway. (until they get mugged)

I see him as extending a hand to someone who may be in need. That is exactly the type of behavior that I expect from the average gun owner. I expect it because it has been my experience that most gun owners are very caring and giving.

As far as being banned at DU, it is pretty obvious that if you display any "diversity of thought" over there, you get banned. This occurs whether it is a rational discussion or not. If you are not "in lockstep" with them, they will ban you.

Please cut him some slack. If a flame war starts here, it is because of reactionaries over there looking to start a fight. Chris merely extended a hand of friendship to someone in need.

Thanks,
Todd

[mormonsniper]

I also monitor the DU board, to try to get a feel for their beliefs and to understand why they feel the way they do. Very few posts and so far have not tried to get banned. Those who can, should do their best to provide good solid information to those that need it and are open to other ideas. We can preach to the choir, but the "sinners" need our help too. Cslinger did it right I think.

As for this MrBenchley, he/she seems to be quite a character. It almost appears that this individual is so antigun that there may be an underlying reason for it, like he (assuming he is a he) cannot own a weapon or qualify for a CCW. Either that or he just wants to argue just to argue. He resorts to childish terms (pantload???) and some name calling when all else fails (my perception only).

Back to lurking and learning.
Mormonsniper

[MicroBalrog]

Don Gwinn: I'm a DU member and proud.:evil:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/store/images/home_anyone.gif

[ojibweindian]

I've been to DU twice. There is nothing there I find redeeming. There is nothing there to learn.

[cslinger]

What you do on other boards is your business. However, the way you represent THR on other boards could possibly affect your membership here.


Hey I didn't go over there to cause trouble, attempt to get banned, make fun of anybody or any other such reason. Heck I didn't even want to register, I just wanted to send the person in question an email.

As far as preaching, I could care less what anybody else thought over there as I was just trying to lend a helping hand to somebody who seemed to need some guidance and who could possibly make a rash decision that would have disaterous effects on her life without proper thought and training. Not to mention that if she did just lock and load and go kill somebody out of fear she would fuel the fires of anti gun sentiment.

I made it perfectly clear that I wasn't there to argue, I didn't mis-represent who I was or what I believed in, I didn't say that anybody's belief's were wrong or stupid, heck, I even told a MMM member to think hard before she changes her views just because of emotion.

I really and truely only posted because I thought the poor woman could use a little support and a helping hand.

I am sorry if I have caused a ruckous. I just figured it was the right thing to do.

Chris

[Art Eatman]

They're quite up-front about not wanting anybody but ultra-liberal folks posting there. With that in mind, it's not really proper to try to debate with them. IMO, that's a separate thing from cslinger's effort.

Art

[KC]

"They're quite up-front about not wanting anybody but ultra-liberal folks posting there. "

Not very democratic of them.

But wait, is it the Democratic or democratice Underground? May explain a few things.


KC

[Moparmike]

Cslinger,
I think you did great. People that take a "helping hand" as "trolling" are people that I want nothing to do with. I can only hope to meet such people as yourself if I need a helping hand.

IMHO, I think that Don Gwinn was performing the "yall play nice and reflect well on your folks now" role that Mods have to do every so often. A note to Don Gwinn though: A disclaimer would ease the reactionary posts after said warnings. Something like: I realize most of yall dont do this, but for those that would potentially reflect upon THR poorly (ie "foot in mouth syndrome") *insert Moderator wisdom and authority assertion here*.

Just my non-flamable $.02.

[B_Scott]

I wonder how many Ducks Unlimited Members go there by mistake???

[cslinger]

Personally I want to start www.depleteduranium.com like was suggested by another member.

[keyhole]

Democratic Underground

The High Road


Which sounds more,,,,,ummmm,,,,,,ahhhhhh,,,,,,,


Less subversive?

[Dorrin79]

man... I'd forgotten just how crazy those people can be.

I didn't realize I was a "Lunatic Randite"

BTW, cslinger - I don't think you did anything wrong. It's the DU'ers problem if they take offense at your attempt to help somebody.

[mwithers72]

I just went by the DU and find it to be a very single sided place. The feeling I got form that place was nothing but hate. (this is my personel opinion and like my father said "opinions are like A-holes everybodies got one."). I am not tring to say anything bad but, I try to keep an open mind and look at everything. I do not make decision just because my "Party" makes one. At that site it is stated very clear what they are there for "we fully intend to make the word "conservative" absolutely radioactive" ( a driect quote from the "About democratic Underground" page. It is to much of a close mind and reminds me to much of a little kid that would say "you wont play my way! Then I'll just get the ball and go home". In the posts that I read everyone of them I mean EVERYONE of them was used to bash someones intelligence or to be mean. That does not sound like a place that wants to hear anything but what they want to hear. ( so if you have any ideas or individual thoughts do not post them there). I do not know how the mods of this board will feel about this post but it is just the opinion of one person who is willing to listen and not bash someone because they have different ideas then I do. In ending this i will say " I am sorry" to the mods of this board if I have made any statement that may have offended anyone here.

mark

[Kaylee]

what Art said.

CS -- goodonya for tryin' to help. That was about as un-troublemaking a post I could imagine seeing.

What Don's trying to say (I think, Don Correct me if I'm wrong) is to go to another board that's obivously got some philisophical disagreements with us and trying to stir up trouble while inferring one represents THR is a no-no. I don't think any of us see you as having done that.

Now, if DU mods percieve that as such, well then... that's pretty telling of their character, isn't it?

-K

[Sheslinger]

Just so you know, heres what they think of the High Road.

http://www.democraticunderground.co...8&topic_id=3836

I am not surprised by some of it. What can you expect when some of us here sneak in there just to have fun and to see how long they can last without getting banned time after time? It's The High Road, we need to start acting accordingly.

Just my two cents worth.
Sheslinger

[bogie]

deriding and sneering at gun owners and the "powerful gun industry."

I just wanna see someone insert the phrase "powerful swimming pool lobby" somewhere...

Guys, my little brother is a lot like these folks - he's spent far too much time in and around the halls of academia, he's sure he's being discriminated against (somehow...), and that big business is out to get him... It, quite frankly, borders on paranoid schizophrenia. You cannot reason with him - he absolutely refuses to let go of his core beliefs. So I don't try to.

[CZ52GUY]

We need more ambassadors of good will within the shooting sports community like you!

Re: DU, I think their rules are conclusive evidence of what they stand for. "We're right, your wrong, we seek to coerce you into our way of thinking or you can't live in our world".

Each of us has a right to determine that which we consume for information or those with whom we associate. In a public place like an internet forum, to take a position like they do which "stifles debate" is contradictory to common sense.

The good news, is that people are diverse. We are fearfully and wonderfully but not "identically" made. Their insistence on "lock-step" compliance with a specific agenda is likely to cause dissent, even within their own ranks to the point where DU may end up as one lonely individual who has the satisfaction of knowing that "they are right", but will be posting only for their own enjoyment...;)

My 2 cents, ANYONE BUT BUSH in 2004 is a mistake :neener:...
...unless he signs the AWBAN extension.:fire:

Best wishes and safe shooting,

CZ52'

[Tamara]

"Lunatic Randite"? Heh. That's pretty droll...

I wonder what you are if you actually said to a friend over lunch the other day that you thought Ayn Rand was a little too authoritarian and statist for your tastes? ;)

[spacemanspiff]

wow. reading the threads at DU is a great laxative. i am so glad we dont use argumentitive tactics like their posters do. not once did they offer any proof or evidence to back their claims. instead it was 'cry me a river!'; 'put some more spin on it'; 'if you have to ask i dont have to tell you'...

alright, who has the delousing powder? i need to cleanse myself after spending the last hour at DU.

[Doug444]

Hey, I'm more curious about whether or not Cslinger got a PM or other response from the person he offered to help. Cslinger?

[grampster]

I agree with what Don says. We on THR conduct ourselves in a dignified manner, for the most part. We're all guilty about getting exercised from time to time, though, but not as a rule. We are no less dogmatic about what we believe, I suppose, than others. But at the same time I have on numerous occasions seen posters here and TFL who don't believe as we do regarding RKBA or are puzzled etc. come on THR and are welcomed and treated with respect. If they are trolls, it becomes obvious and the conversation ends. You can't reason with a person who's desire is to inflame. What sets us apart is that we attempt to reason with folks, some of us better than others. Even if we don't succeed in convincing folks, our deameanor at least says something about us, at least to people who are reasonable even if they disagree. Personally the disdain that DU has for us and what we believe reinforces my opinion about leftists and statists and libs. That disdain also produces a feeling about the rightness of our view of freedom. Sure, I take swipes at the left etc, but usually in good humor without the bitterness I see on DU.

I went to DU and lurked and what I saw there would not attract me to become a part of that group, even if I had left or liberal leanings. It is profitable, perhaps to go over there to see what the discussions are about, but I wouldn't participate. But, it doesn't hurt to see what is going on. There is enought to be angry about in the daily grind to subject myself, to often, to the bitterness over there.

I'm starting to ramble......so.....Illigitimi non carborundum est!

grampster

[braindead0]

Well, if you're going to do some serious stirring there.. don't mention THR and don't use the same nick.. no problem. :evil:

[geekWithA.45]

I am sorry if I have caused a ruckous. I just figured it was the right thing to do.

Cslinger: Operating from high principles is never a mistake.

The very best that we CAN is to

"Do one right thing after another".

[kenehsr]

I've got two words for DU's site. "WHAT EVER" :rolleyes:

[Moparmike]

When righteous indignation is a primary weapon in the enemy's battlements, there is no convincing them that you are right. Unfortunately for us, righteous indignation is one of their primary weapons. That, and name-calling. (Yay maturity.)

[Brian Dale]

Not having been here long, my reaction to the above posts was this:

Don Gwinn's concise statement of principles seemed like a quiet reminder: "Here's what we're about." It didn't look like a reproach, but rather an affirmation of good manners and moral, ethical conduct. I found it uplifting, and it was informative for me as a a new guy here.

cslinger's writing didn't look like a "rant" at all (sorry, MicroBalrog), but like an offer of a willing ear (via email) and a quiet invitation, made to someone in pain, to come in and learn whatever she might wish to learn about gun ownership and shooting. It was a kindness.