Hardcast bullets - what's the problem

[Newton]

I'm about to place an order for some of Buffalo Bore's .380ACP +P hardcast 100gr load, and their website makes a statement that they offer the same load with an FMJ bullet because some people will not shoot hardcast bullets.

Is there something I'm missing here, what's so bad about hardcast bullets?

[un_lucky]

Some guns have rifleing (polygonal) that should not be shot with cast bullets, And there are some guns that get really dirty using cast bullets.

[Newton]

Thanks - I plan on using them in a Ruger LCP, so I'm not seeing any issues unless someone tells me otherwise.

[loop]

Go ahead and shoot hardcast. Of course you would have to handload to to do that...


Go buy a box of ammo. Makes no difference.

[Regen]

Why shouldn't you use cast bullets for Polygonal bore? What happens, does the bullet get stuck in the bore? Fouling problems?

[fineredmist]

Hard cast bullets become a problem in any bore when the bullet velocity is above 1500 fps +/-. The heat of the detonation plus the friction in the bore cause the bullet to soften and leave lead residue. The difference in a convention bore and a polygonal bore is easy to understand, in the conventional bore the lands grip the bullet and impart the spin necessary to stabilize. A polygonal bore does not have the sharp lands to grip the bullet and the bullet actually slips and slides you might say and it will deposit lead. There is less friction in a poly barrel and it will give you slightly higher velocities. Poly barrels are less expensive to manufacture and when used properly they will perform as well as and sometimes better than conventional. If you are concerned about the leading then buy a lead remover and clean your bore on a regular basis and you will not have problems.

[Majic]

Actually hardcast bullets are fired at velocities up to and just over 2000 fps. The bases can wear gaschecks to protect them and the bullet can be cast of pure linotype. Also a suitable lube is used that will hold up under the strain during the bullet's travel down the barrel. There is a lot to cast bullet shooting that many shooters don't know or understand. Talk to seasoned bullet casters and read some of the info they have amassed (most not found in common places). It might amaze you.

[The Lone Haranguer]

As I understand the term, a hardcast bullet is meant to penetrate deeply in game animals - some of which are larger and/or tougher than humans, as well as being further away and/or the shot angle not always being ideal - at the expense of expansion. In a human target I doubt if these would perform any better than a FMJ bullet.

[FieroCDSP]

Most hardcast bullets will seem to leave more smoke in the air than FMJ. Much of this is the lube, but at hot enough temps and pressures, the lead will start to vaporize. Some companies will list their bullet's Brinell Hardness number. THere are formulas for using this number to figure the most efficient velocity and pressure without leading.

You should check to see if your range discourages cast bullet use, but I doubt there's too many. Indoor ranges with poor ventilation are some to watch out for.

[Hunter0924]

I would be careful about shooting hot loads in the Ruger LCP.
http://65.172.200.34/ruger/ruger.htm

[dogrunner]

Fineredmist.


What pray tell is this 1500 foot second limitation you speak of?

My M/2 carbine, set on full auto, REGULARLY digests hard cast, gas checked Lyman 311359s. Leading is not an issue in either the barrel or the gas piston and function is 100%. I can't recall just how many times I've read and been told that that piston will "lead" up............BULL!........if that bullet is properly lubed it WILL NOT!

Further, until you try a projectile in your gun (rifle or handgun....inclusive of various rifling styles) you cannot make the blanket call that "you cannot".

Some years back I gave a new Marlin microgrooved .44 lever gun to my stepfather. I had read the popular claims of inaccuracy, leading, and all the bad things that shootin' cast would do. He wanted to try 'em anyway so we stoked that rifle with (again hard cast) loads using Lyman's 429244 with both the gas check installed and absent................That gun shot the same with either. Its accuracy was easily as good as any factory loads we ran thru it.

Had a buddy years back that owned a WW1 08/15 water cooled. I have seen him run hundred round belts of 8mm cast thru that piece.......zero leading other than for a light wash. Certainly no more fouling than with jacketed stuff.....


Bottom line being don't say no till you try it!


PS: ALL my cast bullets are straight wheelweights.

[MCgunner]

Hard cast bullets become a problem in any bore when the bullet velocity is above 1500 fps +/-.

I push a hard cast gas checked bullet to near 1900 fps in my 20" .357 carbine with no leading at all. A gas checked bullet can push over 2000 fps without leading problems. Gas checks, last box I bought, are about 12 or 14 bucks a thousand, not too bad since my lead is free for the taking.

[mainmech48]

I've read that the primary beef with lead projectiles and polyagonal bores is that they may 'strip' when subjected to the rotational stresses in them, leaving relatively heavy metal deposits and giving poor accuracy. Alloy hardness may well be a large factor here, but I'd be very cautious in any case.

I've also been told that these deposits are thought to be a prime actor in the mysterious "Glock .40 KB" stories we've all heard about. some anecdotes I've seen mention people trying the old "shoot a few jacketed pills to scrub it" routine just prior to the KB. Personally, I don't know whether or not that's true. I shoot a lot of cast bullets, but none of my weapons have the polygon rifling.

[BlindJustice]

I have Leadhead advertised as "Hardcast" & accurate.
I have both .45 ACP and .45 Auto Rim loaded
LH 200 gr. SWC @ 1,025 FPS

S&W 1911 - no problem
S&W 625 5" Bbl. - it's narrow and shallow rifling
leads up so, I need to get a Lewis Lead remover.

I'm going to try the same bullet as well as a
Leadhead 225 gr. TC-BB loaded to 925 fps out
of the 625. I have a Marlin 1894 with the ballard
style ( wider grooves than the Marlin Micro grooves
in the .44 Magnum chambered lever guns.

It'll be interesting to see how the cast bullets perform.

[S&Wfan]

Hi,

I use a 300 grain, hardcast lead bullet, with a flat nose in my .44 magnum revolver for deer hunting.

I use it because a hard cast bullet, running hot will penetrate through and through. If the deer doesn't go right down (as it usually does with this load), they don't run far . . . and a flatnose cast bullet makes one HUGE blood trail.

FOR SELF DEFENSE THOUGH . . .

The LAST bullet design I'd want would be a lead, hardcast bullet. Why? Over penetration!!! The bullets would generally go through a person and keep on goin' through walls and such . . . potentially hurting or killing innocent people.

No, for self defense, use hollow points!

T.

[Virginian]

I believe it's about airborne lead people. Lot's of indoor ranges are banning non-coated lead projectiles for just that reason. I know two guys who are absolute fanatics about the whole subject.

[Newton]

Thanks for the info on the LCP kaboom, but as soon as I see the word "reloader"...........

[MCgunner]

I won't own guns that won't shoot lead bullets. It's about all I shoot. I carry modern hollow points, but don't shoot 'em much. I cast my own. I don't shoot in indoor ranges, only been in one once in my life. That range went out of business for lack of customers in 3 months. There isn't another indoor range in 150 miles of me, just shoot at the gun club range (where I mine the backstop for free lead) or my own place.

I'm 55 years old. When I started driving, cars didn't have seat belts in 'em. I started riding motorcycles a year or two before I bought a helmet. We had a steel dash in our 57 Chevy, no air bags, I played with lawn darts, I've been shooting SOMEthing since the age of six, mama never had a child seat for me, I played with fireworks every fourth, yet, somehow, I survived. I don't worry a whole hell of a lot about shooting lead. I've been exposed to FAR worse having toiled for 30 years in the chemical industry.

[Vern Humphrey]

The fundamental problem with hardcast bullets is that at low pressures and velocities they will not "slug up" and seal the bore -- so you don't get good forward obturation. Gas can squirt past the bullet, and that leads to gas cutting, lead fouling, and inaccuracy.

Most commercially cast pistol bullets are too hard. They are that way because the alloy used fills out moulds better and produces fewer rejects -- which makes it ideal for mass-producing bullets, but not necessarily for shooting.

The manufacturers advertise "hard cast" bullets to make us think we're getting the best, when really we're getting bullets too hard for most applications.

[Majic]

It's not that the commercial cast bullets are too hard, but they use too hard of a lube. A softer lube would solve most problems but a softer lube cannot withstand the rough handling and temperature differences encountered on it's way to the consumer from the manufactor.

[Vern Humphrey]

Yes, lube is critical. But if you're having trouble with commercial hard-cast bullets in a handgun, a softer alloy in a home cast bullet will usually shoot better.

[Archer1945]

I think John Ross, who is a member on this forum, would have some major disagreements about not shooting cast bullets over 1500 fps. He shoots his 500 S&W with cast bullets at well over 1500. These, btw, are not light bullets either, unless you call 350 grains light. He has an excellent article on his website, www.john-ross.net, about loading for the 500 S&W and what he says applies to all cast bullet loading.

Some years ago Elmer Keith did penetration tests for an article in American Rifleman, I believe, and cast bullets out penetrated every thing, except maybe the heavy solids used in the so-called "elephant guns". Elmer, like John Ross, was of the school that a rifle wasn't even worth looking at unless its caliber started with a 4; 5 or 6 was even better.:)

[themic]

Don't some indoor ranges prohibit all non-jacketed bullets? That's be a good reason to sell jacketed versions. Like ranier's copper-washed bullets, for example. Looks yellow. Must be good.

[StrawHat]

Cast bullets are a topic unto themselves and at least one forum is devoted to little else.

What Vern Humphrey said about most commercial bullets being too hard is generally what I have found to be true.

I cast and load for all of my firearms, 22 WCF to 50-70.

I have found that any of my guns above 30 caliber like a softer bullet.

For example, one of my 45 Long Colt loads is a 255 grain lead SWC (cast 30/1 lead/tin) over a full casae of black powder. From my 5 1/2" barrel, it will pass completly through a whitetail deer after breaking both shoulders.

No noticeable leading in the barrel.

The only ones I cast harder are the small bores, usually 30 and under.