Beretta Storm CX4 Conversion - BATFE Subject


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Mr_Rogers
April 20, 2008, 05:55 PM
Hello Folks,
I am a newbie on line although I have been lurking for several months. During that time I have been trying to educate myself on the regs. to carry out a crazy project. I must say the level of knowledge and helpfulness of members is impressive so I am hoping that a few final questions I still have can be answered - fully understanding the BATFE could re-interperet the regs. overnight.

The plan is to convert this:

http://shootingpartner.com/publicdocs/photos/BerettaCx4Storm.jpg

To this (don't worry, this is a photoshop job):

http://shootingpartner.com/publicdocs/photos/BerettaCx4Storm_short.jpg

Obviously this is a Form 1 project. However, complications arise.

1. It seems to me that the modified firearm would have been perfectly legal, and none NFA, if Beretta had designed it and manufactured the action for a pistol.

2. If I get a Form 1 approval the firearm is now legally a pistol. Since the barrel length of a pistol is not restricted does that mean I could shorten the barrel to any length I wished under the original Form 1 or would another Form 1 be required?

3. Does the remaining length of fore-end constitute a forward hand grip - which would possibly make it a rifle instead of a pistol, despite the lack of a butt-stock?

4. I own two Storms, the butt-stocks are interchangeable. Fortunately, Beretta serial numbered the butt-stocks as well as the actions. If I only modify one rifle, with matching serial numbers, I think I would be legal to have the other rifle in close proximity as long as I never assembled a firearm with mis-matched serial number parts.

5. The BATFE restricted FLL part of a Storm is the plastic fore-end housing. This is considered the action of this firearm.

Gets complicated doesn't it. Hope this provides interesting reading to other members as an example of the practical application of the regulations. I will report on my experiences with the BATFE when the project is completed.

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Kharn
April 20, 2008, 06:04 PM
2. If I get a Form 1 approval the firearm is now legally a pistol. Since the barrel length of a pistol is not restricted does that mean I could shorten the barrel to any length I wished under the original Form 1 or would another Form 1 be required?Incorrect, it would be a short-barreled rifle, that just happened to be missing a buttstock. You would have the barrel shortened to whatever length you listed on the Form1.

3. Does the remaining length of fore-end constitute a forward hand grip - which would possibly make it a rifle instead of a pistol, despite the lack of a butt-stock?Its still a rifle, just now a legal, short one. But, unrelated to your question, you are allowed to have handguards on pistols, look at Contenders and the various AR/AK pistols.

Plus, why would you want such a monstrosity? You'd have the weight & size of a rifle, but no easy way to shoot it.

Kharn

redsaber75
April 20, 2008, 06:08 PM
Plus, why would you want such a monstrosity? You'd have the weight & size of a rifle, but no easy way to shoot it.

Kharn

+1,000,000 to that.

Don't turn the CX4 into an ineffective monstrosity.

General Geoff
April 20, 2008, 06:15 PM
What, I think it looks pretty cool. Though to be honest I'd rather shorten the barrel than get rid of the shoulder stock.

Mr_Rogers
April 20, 2008, 07:05 PM
Kharn,
Thanks for the comments. I need to do more research on this matter of the SBR to find the reference (the BATFE website seems to be locking up my computer at present).
On an earlier visit to the NFA section of the BATFE website I viewed a document entitled "Firearms Identification, Part 1". This specifically showed an example of a rifle with the butt-stock shortened which they then declared to be a pistol.
What is not clear to me is why shortening the butt-stock of a rifle without shortening the barrel would make a SBR. I thought there were two major factors in determining a non-NFA rifle. The length of the barrel and the overall length of the firearm. I can see that removing the butt-stock and reducing the overall length of the firearm determines the firearm is no longer a non-NFA rifle but how does this make it a SBR since the barrel is still more than 16 inches long? Is this just a matter of semantics? It would seem to be legally relevant.

rdhood
April 20, 2008, 07:48 PM
I dont think i would do that to a cx4, but you might try something like that with a hi point 995 and an ATI stock

Coronach
April 20, 2008, 07:57 PM
If you want to do that, it's fine with me, it's your gun. You're not chopping up a piece of history. You're turning a fun little current-production carbine into something that...I dunno. Seems kinda pointless. But there's no law that states that everything must have a point.

Mike

CypherNinja
April 20, 2008, 08:01 PM
What is not clear to me is why shortening the butt-stock of a rifle without shortening the barrel would make a SBR.

The correct answer is the BATFE's "once a rifle, always a rifle" rule.

If the firearm was originally made in the configuration you are proposing, it would be a legal pistol. HOWEVER, since the firearm was originally made as a rifle, it is now ALWAYS a rifle, and will ALWAYS be subject to the length requirements.

Quiet
April 20, 2008, 08:09 PM
"once a rifle, always a rifle" rule
Rifle with barrel length shorter than 16" = SBR
Rifle with overall length shorter than 26" = SBR

OMGWTFBBQ
April 20, 2008, 08:16 PM
According to the BATFE, which seems to change it's mind about pistol <- -> rifle conversions every few months, this would NOT be legal. Though there is a SCOTUS ruling to the contrary(United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Co.) IANAL, and I certainly would not encourage anyone to put themselves in a position where they would be facing felony charges, but it would appear that it IS legal, unless they amended the constitution somewhere so that the BATFE can override a SCOTUS decision. As for the "standard" foregrip making it an SBR, if that were so, then AR-15 and AK clone pistols would be illegal, however attaching a vertical foregrip WOULD make it an SBR.

Mr_Rogers
April 20, 2008, 08:20 PM
Thanks Guys, got it now. I got the wrong idea from the BATFE website. Right district, wrong street.

This is nostalgia really, sort of like buying an old car that you used to own. Can't have the real thing anymore because of the price and the regulations. This is about as close as I can get.

hankdatank1362
April 20, 2008, 08:44 PM
I wouldn't do it, but hey, whatever floats your boat...

Chop the barrel down a little too and you can have the world's largest pistol.

It would even dwarf a Desert Eagle.

Bonus points if you CCW it.

TexasRifleman
April 20, 2008, 10:03 PM
If I get a Form 1 approval the firearm is now legally a pistol.

To do what you want would actually entail making a Short Barreled Rifle but simply not putting a stock on it.

But sure, you could do that if you wanted.

There is no way to take a Title 1 rifle and make a Title 1 pistol with it.

It will be an NFA weapon after you do this.

Gets complicated doesn't it. Hope this provides interesting reading to other members as an example of the practical application of the regulations

I don't think the damn things were meant to be practical ;)


As for varying the length once you get the Form 1 approved that one is kinda murky. There are many Form 1's out there that say for the barrel length "Less than 16 inches" but those don't seem to be approved any longer.

Lately they are rejecting Form 1's that don't have a specific length on them. So, if you get a Form 1 approved with a 11 inch barrel for example you could not technically put a 10 inch barrel on it according to the Form 1, but that's where it gets murky. Is that really a strict standard or does the fact that it's a short barreled rifle at all negate that specific length space on the form?

Once it's a Short Barreled Rifle you can have any barrel under 16 inches on it. If someone wanted to be a jerk they could probably hang you for having a 10 inch barrel when the Form 1 said you'd use a 12 inch but that's something only a jury could say 100% for sure.

So, it's murky at best until someone is put on trial for it.

Prince Yamato
April 21, 2008, 01:42 AM
you are allowed to have handguards on pistols, look at Contenders and the various AR/AK pistols.

I believe that's because the BATF considers those to be "barrel shrouds".

ClickClickD'oh
April 21, 2008, 02:50 AM
I believe that's because the BATF considers those to be "barrel shrouds".

Aren't those the shoulder thing that goes up?

Kharn
April 21, 2008, 07:23 AM
TexasRifleman:
There is a block on the Form1 for additional description of the weapon, where you're able to put 'also 9mm, 10", .22lr 7", .22lr 11", 223 14.5"', for example. But the ATF says if the weapon is ever sold, it must be sold with the caliber and barrel length listed in the caliber and barrel length slots, and the "additional description" configurations may be used as long as it is readily restorable to the primary configuration.

Kharn

TexasRifleman
April 21, 2008, 09:15 AM
Good to know. The last one I did actually came back approved for "less than 16 inch" on the barrel and a list of calibers in the caliber box but I have read they don't approve them like that any more.

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