[lionking]

was wondering if any with knowledge of the Colt 1909 would know these marks as to wheher they are some factory or purpose markings or just damage.Thx.:)



clickable photos.........


http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/th_acf3138.jpg (http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/acf3138.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/th_acf313e.jpg (http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/acf313e.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/th_acf313a.jpg (http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/acf313a.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/th_acf30f1.jpg (http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/acf30f1.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/th_acf30f0.jpg (http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/acf30f0.jpg)

[lionking]

also can this be confirmed here...........

"This revolver was designed to fire a cartridge similar to the "Caliber .45 Long Colt" but with a wider rim to insure extraction"

http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/colt1909/usarevpage_m1909.htm


I'm gathering that a normal .45 colt cartridge is not for the 1909?????

[dfariswheel]

I don't know what the "mystery marks" are but they are NOT factory or US Government.

Since they are all look very similar, I'd guess someone could have added them for some reason, but God only knows why.
NO ONE ever put any kind of stamp on the front of the trigger guard or on the grip area behind the trigger guard like that, so deliberate or accident..... Your guess is as good as anyone's.

My best guess: Marks caused by accident.

Personally, I never heard of a cartridge "similar" to the standard .45 Colt but with a wider rim, but it's possible.

[Murdock]

"This revolver was designed to fire a cartridge similar to the "Caliber .45 Long Colt" but with a wider rim to insure extraction"

This is a description of the British .455 Eley, which was a common chambering in the Colt New Service M1909. The rims are thinner but wider than the .45 Colt. The diameters of the case bodies are the same, but the cases are shorter than the .45 Colt. A wimpy loading compared to our good old American stuff.

[Jim Watson]

The mystery markings are a mystery to me.

The ammunition for the 1909 New Service was the same as .45 Colt except for a larger rim diameter for reliable simultaneous extraction. So large that you could only load it in every other chamber in a SAA. Not made anywhere that I know of except Frankford Arsenal for military issue. The loading was rather light, more like .45 Government/S&W/Schofield than the old horsekiller .45 LC, although with smokeless powder. Hogg & Weeks say a 250 at 738 Fps.

A 1909 will shoot .45 Colt but may give extraction hangups... or it may not. Modern .45 Colt brass has larger rims than in the 19th century, so would probably do better in the 1909 than leftover 1873 ammo.

[lionking]

looking at them again it looks like someone may have used the gun to tap on something.The hits look almost identical in shape though.Or maybe someone may have put them there intentionally to identify the gun I dunno.


Too bad though because otherwise it's a fine example of a revolver.Glad to know that a .45 colt cartridge will work in the Colt 1909,because the more I look at these the more I'm thinking it would be fun to shoot.Wouldn't want to have to get speciality ammo though.

[Old Fuff]

The marks aren't anything that was done at the Colt factory, as they always used either letters or numbers, and the stamping was neatly done.

Frankfort Arsenal loaded a special cartridge for the Model 1909 revolver. It came about as results of tests made of various cartridges and calibers in 1904. It was originally loaded with an early version of Bullseye smokeless powder, but after several revolvers were blown up with double charges the Army had DuPonte develop a special powder with which to load the new cartridges.

Recently some of this ammunition was auctioned. Go to www.armsbid.com and look up Lot #1280

Incidentally, during the Indian War years the Army didn't load their Colt Model 1873 revolvers with .45 Colt ammunition... :what:

I bookmarked the thread, and will post more later. ;)

[351 WINCHESTER]

I had a 1909 colt. It was a great revolver, but it lacked those "marks". They are not factory markings for sure. I never heard of a 1909 being chambered in anything but the 45 colt ctg.

[Old Fuff]

I never heard of a 1909 being chambered in anything but the 45 colt ctg.

Well actually it was... Sort of.... But then again not... :evil:

And you can blame it all on an Army Captain who was promoted to Brigadier General in one jump…. :what:

Must be a story there somewhere… Ya’ think? :D

[dfariswheel]

Are you referring to one "Schofield" who used to wear a blue suit?

[Old Fuff]

No, his brother was indeed a General, but the "Schofield" you have in mind was only a Major. :uhoh:

General Schofield did reach that rank, but not in one jump... :evil: :D

[unspellable]

First came the 45 Colt.

Second came the 45 Smith & Wesson or 45 Schofield.

Problem: The 45 Schofield's wider rim would allow only three to be chambered in the Colt SAA.

Third came the 45 Government known on the civilian market as the 45 Short Colt. This had the length and load of the 45 Schoefield but the narrow rim of the 45 Colt, allowing it to work in both revolvers at the expense of a greater risk of the rim getting under the extractor in the Schofield.

Fourth came the 38 Colt.

Problem: The 38 Colt was not much of a man stopper in the Philippine unrest. (Dirty little secret: Neither were any of the 45s or the 30-40 rifle. Hard balls just don't make good stoppers.)

Fifth came the Colt New Service Model 1909 chambered for the 45 Revolver cartridge. The case is just slightly longer than a 45 Colt and the rim is wider like the 45 S&W. The load is similar to the 45 Government. The 1909 revolver was intended to use the 45 Colt as a secondary cartridge so any factory load 45 Colt is safe in it but will not shoot to the sights.

The point of the excercise was to avoid the 45 Colt's propensity for getting hung up under the extractor. The military had already decided on a 45 self loader, but not which one. The 1909 revolver was adopted as a stop gap. By this time it had already been decided that the 45 Auto cartridge should duplicate the ballistics of the 45 Government so the 45 Revolver was loaded to the same ballistics.

Probably the most unique point about the cartridge is that it has slipped into total obscurity despite having been first line issue for the US Army, Navy, & Marines while the revolver it was chambered in is still relatively well known, even to the specific 1909 varient.

[Old Fuff]

Nope..... :)

The .45 Government was loaded exclusively at Frankfort Arsenal, which normally loaded all of the Army's small arms ammunition except in times of war or other emergencies. This cartridge had been designed to work in both the Colt Single Action Army, M.1873 and the Smith & Wesson Schofield.

It was loaded with a 230 grain lead round nose bullet and 28 grains of black Powder. The cartridge was introduced in 1875, as “Revolver Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1875. Over the years it was slightly modified in 1882, 1890, and 1896. This was the cartridge that was issued to be used in the Colt 1873 Single Action Army from 1875 until it was withdrawn from service, sometimes as late as 1917.

The M1909 .45 cartridge was designed to be used exclusively in the Army’s Model 1909 .45 Revolver. The case was lengthened to that of the .45 Colt (aka “Long Colt”) and the rim made larger and thicker. The bullet weighed 255 grains, and it was initially charged with 5 grains of Bullseye smokeless powder. After some double loads blew up several revolvers the Army ask the DuPont Company to develop a special powder for the new cartridge. They did, and the new powder was called “Revolver Special Quality” or RSQ. The charge was 8.4 grains, which offered a muzzle velocity in the upper 700 FPS range out of a 5 ½” barrel. While this may not seem particularly powerful by today’s standards, it outclassed the older black powder cartridge with its 230 grain bullet.

It is perhaps noteworthy that the Army’s load used in the .45 ACP consisted of a 230 grain jacketed bullet backed by 5.4 grains of Bullseye.

[unspellable]

Nope which? I might be a bit fuzzy on the specifics of 45 Revolver load but the 45 Government was very much loaded elswhere than at Frankford Arsenal. It's possible the official government issue stuff was only loaded there, but the cartridge was loaded by several firms for the civilian market as the 45 Short Colt and in fact may still be loaded since I've seen it under the Fiocchi lable at gun shows.

Another kicker is that when I go to the gun shows and look at brass headstamped 45 Schofield it appears to have the dimensions of the 45 Government case, that is, the narrow rim.

I have a box of the 45 Revolver in my collection, I'll have to dig it out and look at it again. It won't chamberin my Uberti SA 45 Colt due to the wide rim.

On the other hand, Starline made a run of "45 Colt" brass with wide rims. I didn't find out about this until it was all gone. I'd have loved to get some for my 1909 or DA 45 Colts.

[Old Fuff]

Unspellable:

I have a problem…. :uhoh:

(Now don’t you go touch that with a 10-foot pole…) :D

Anyway I have been researching the Model 1909 Colt revolver for some years, the purpose being to either write a short book, or a long article on its history. But unfortunately arthritis has crippled my hands and slowed my typing. As a consequence I have to draft longer posts on a word processor and then cut & paste. Because of this, getting finished will take some time and several posts, but I will get there.

Anyway, concerning the ammunition. Since the core subject of the thread is the Model 1909 revolver I tried to restrict my comments to that particular handgun and the ammunition used by the military services. For a number of reasons they didn’t use commercial ammunition in either the 1873 Single Action Army or Model 1909 during the time those revolvers were issued. Not a whole lot of 1909 commercial ammunition was manufactured, because the number of revolvers in the commercial markets they served was very limited. There was a market however, made up of owners of regular Colt New Service revolvers chambered in .45 “Long” Colt.

For many years many people (including myself) thought that the M1909 .45 ball cartridge was a lengthened .45 Colt. It was not. What they did at Frankfort Arsenal was lengthen the cartridge they were making, known variously as the .45 Government, .45 Short, or .45 S&W to that of a regular .45 Colt.

With minor modifications (which I will discuss at another time) the Model 1909 was an off-the-shelf commercial Colt New Service, and the cylinders were chambered in .45 Long Colt. The additional length was needed when they went from a 230-grain bullet to one that weighed 255 grains. Why the change? Well that’s yet another story. :cool:

[unspellable]

The 45 Colt has a narrow rim.

The 45 S&W (45 Schofield) has a shorter case and a wider rim

The 45 Government (45 Short Colt) has the 45 Colt rim & the 45 S&W case length.

All three of the preceding cartridges were loaded commercially for the civilian market.

The 45 Revolver is just a hair longer than the 45 Colt (perhaps 0.010") and has the wide rim of the 45 S&W, it's a longer version of the 45 S&W, not a longer version of the 45 Government. The wider rim works better in revolvers with extractors provided the cylinder has enough diameter which the New Service does. I've never heard of the 1909 cartridge being loaded anywhere but at Frankford.

The civilian New Service in 45 Colt was a fairly common item on the civilian market. I don't think any 1909s were released to the civilian market. My own 1909 has been refinished and the original grips checkered. The bore is pristine.

I have a box of the frankford 45 revolver loads. Strictly for the shelf. The revolver lives on a diet of 45 Colt loaded no hotter than standard factory loads. (A bit of a problem since I have 45 Colt guns meant to take hot loads. I've not put up any hot loads until I come up with a fool proof method to keep them seperated.)

The 1909 variant has a different height on the front sight blade. I've never measured the chamber length.

Some where I have an article on the 1909, if I can find it you might want a copy as research material.

BTW: Purely anecdotal, but I take chondrotion and since I started taking it the hip has given me very little trouble.

[Old Fuff]

I'm sorry I haven't been back, but I've had to divert my attention to some other matters.

The U.S, M.1909 revolvers were chambered in .45 (Long) Colt for a simple reason. They were all made using commercial Colt New Service parts. The only difference between a stock .45 New Service of that time, and a M.1909 revolver were special plain walnut stocks in place of the regular molded hard rubber ones, a lanyard loop, and additional military markings and inspection stamps.

It was the Army’s practice to use ammunition manufactured in-house at Frankfort Arsenal. At the time (1909 – 1912) the only .45 ammunition they had was old, mostly black-powder loaded .45 Government loads intended to be used in the old M.1873 Single Action Army. Preliminary testing turned up a number of problems when these cartridges were used in the Colt New Service. Consequently Frankfort Arsenal was ordered to develop a new round (and improved load) for use in the new revolver. This is what they did.

[unspellable]

If the only problem were that existing stocks of 45 Colt were old and tired, a new run would have solved the problem. I have always heard that the primary objective in the new cartridge was the wider rim to avoid problems with the extractor on the New Service. The front sight blade supposedly has a different height, regulated for the cartridge. A variation in blade height would hardly even merit being called a difference since the New Sevice was chambered in many cartridges with corresponding variations in blade height.

[Old Fuff]

If I may quote myself.... :D


Preliminary testing turned up a number of problems when these cartridges were used in the Colt New Service. Consequently Frankfort Arsenal was ordered to develop a new round (and improved load) for use in the new revolver. This is what they did.

You are right about the rim, and since for the first time they had a cylinder large enough so they could enlarge the rim - they did,

Some additiona smalll runs of the .45 Government cartridge were made, using smokeless powder for the first time. But this was a stop-gap sort of thing. The New Service was a new ballgame, and the Army intended to make the most of it. The larger rim was only part of the story.

[lionking]

well I got one.Won a auction 5 minutes ago.The finish is more worn than the one I pictured above but I got it for alot less than the other one was going for,in fact what most go for,got it for $600.Other I have seen usually go past $1000 and sometimes in not as good as condition than the one I just got.

Hope I'm happy when I hold it......and shoot it.


http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/th_pix1538981421.jpg (http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/pix1538981421.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/th_pix1538981859.jpg (http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/pix1538981859.jpg)
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/th_pix1538981531.jpg (http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/pix1538981531.jpg)

[lionking]

woohoo.Here is the one I scored.Finish is that "oldgun" look that is "silvery" but it is overall great shape and the action is tight.:cool:



Now to get some Magtech ammo next week and its off to the range.


http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/003.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/002.jpg
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/colt%201909/001.jpg

[Vern Humphrey]

The only difference between a stock .45 New Service of that time, and a M.1909 revolver were special plain walnut stocks in place of the regular molded hard rubber ones, a lanyard loop, and additional military markings and inspection stamps.
My New Service, made in 1906, has the hole for the lanyard loop, but the loop itself is missing.

[Old Fuff]

Many commercial Colt New Service revolvers had lanyard rings, especially those sold to various police departments. The illustration shown in the company's catalogs also included that attachment. On the other side of the coin. S&W's illustration of their .44 Hand Ejector models also showed a lanyard ring, and they are found on some regestered .357 revolvers.

If you want a lanyard ring I believe they might be found at: www.e-gunparts.com

[Vern Humphrey]

I keep vacillating -- I want the lanyard loop, but the Pachmayer grips that make the gun so comfortable to shoot don't have room for it.

[Jim K]

Here are pictures of the cartridges in question. The .45 Colt vs the .45 Revolver cartridge, Model 1909; and the .45 Colt vs the .45 government (with Benet primer). The rim difference is obvious; there is no significant difference in length. The .45 Government was the cartridge actually used through most of the Model 1873 era. It was also made by commercial companies and often used by civilians in .45 Colt revolvers and in the relatively few Schofields available.

The Model 1909 cartridge was, as Old Fuff and others have said, made only by and for the government and was never made by any commercial company, either on contract or for the civilian market. The rim makes it impossible to load more than 3 rounds in a SAA, no problem for the Army, as the SAA was long obsolete, but a source of confusion for civilians who might have bought ammo and found themselves with a three-shooter. I suspect that it was the latter problem that kept commercial companies from making it even though many New Service revolvers were sold in .45 Colt and the Model 1909 cartridge should have been an improvement in them.

Jim

[Colt46]

Too bad it enjoyed such a short lifespan. Yeah, I know everybody and their brother will say the 1911, but a double action .45 colt is just awesome.
Thanks for the pics. Makes me want to stuff some cash away and go looking to spend some money.