You can pay an FFL to run a NICS w/o buying gun?


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newbie4help
April 20, 2008, 11:31 PM
I read on another thread that this is possible. Does anyone know if this is okay?

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Treo
April 20, 2008, 11:38 PM
I'm sure it would be , but what would be the point?

newbie4help
April 20, 2008, 11:41 PM
Because if you get denied (even if its because of machine error) you can be in legal jeopardy for attempting to buy a gun. Rather check first w/o purchasing.

Lurp
April 20, 2008, 11:42 PM
Treo, I assume it would be for a FTF sale where the seller wanted to make sure the buyer wasn't a felon or such.

larry_minn
April 20, 2008, 11:44 PM
I used to have a toll free NICS number that was set up for NON-FFLs.

Now the question. WHY?? do you think you might have a past incident that "might" disqualify you? Do you fear filling out a 4473 (the way you want) will cause you to go to jail? Was a judgement overturned/pardoned/set aside???
If any of those you NEED to contact a lawyer and make dang sure. (if you are as cheap as me) you can contact ATF yourself. Thing is you NEED written/signed/dated documentation before you buy a gun if you have this kind of concerns.

newbie4help
April 20, 2008, 11:52 PM
Doesn't it take a while and you have to to a freedom of information act request?

Treo
April 21, 2008, 02:24 AM
If you're that freaked out buy the gun FTF.

P.S. My stepdaughters ex boyfriend was dumb enough to call the county courthouse to ask if they could check for warrants. they told him there was a five dollar fee & he had to be present for them to do the check ( I'm sure you can see this one coming) Of course he had warrants and he was arrested on the spot.
I think the moral of the story is self explanitory.

markk
April 21, 2008, 02:35 AM
I could be wrong but I don't think a NICS denial equals an automatic arrest for attempting to buy a firearm anyway, I'm pretty sure I've seen people get denied and say "OK, thanks..." and walk out.

kingpin008
April 21, 2008, 02:58 AM
Right. Trying to buy a gun and being denied isn't against the law. Purposefully lying on the 4473 while trying to buy a gun is. Nobody is going to call the Feds down on your head if you fail a background check at the local gun shop.

People are denied for all types of reasons - usually to be approved shortly after. It wouldn't make sense to run things the way you seem to think they are.

Powderman
April 21, 2008, 03:13 AM
Can you just call the cops and have them do it? I've heard they have access to NICS as well. I don't want some stupid unpaid parking ticket I don't know about, or some thing I had expunged as a kid (and therefore is irrelevant under 4473) but accidentally put in system biting me in the arse.

OK. The underlying question is this: what do you have in your past that would give you reason to believe that your purchase for a firearm would be delayed or denied?

If you don't feel comfortable posting it here, PM me.

Here is the crux of the matter: Get a copy of a 4473, and answer all the questions truthfully to yourself. Bottom line: if you have no felony convictions; no convictions for Assault or Domestic Violence; have no Orders of Protection or Restraint in force, received an honorable discharge if you have served and have not renounced your citizenship and are a US Citizen, you too can purchase a firearm.

If you have been denied, there is a form you must fill out to appeal. Information about the form is available from the gun store.

coloradokevin
April 21, 2008, 03:21 AM
To the OP, you either are or are not qualified to buy a gun based on your past (have you been convicted of a felony??)... You know your past, so base your decision on that alone.

If you aren't a felon, etc, you should have no issues, and the point of having a gun store employee "clear" you is moot. If not, then you are in a different category entirely.


Treo,

There are other reasons why we can't conduct NCIC/CCIC clearances by telephone too, but I do like the 'come on in and we'll check approach' :)

(honestly though, we don't lie about it here... I just tell them straight up: "You can go to any police station and they will tell you, but you'll be arrested if you have a warrant. And, if you don't like that, don't break laws/FTA/etc!"

misANTHrope
April 21, 2008, 03:36 AM
Dear Lord, are you still wringing your hands over this?

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=353610
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=353843

You're not going to get tossed in jail because you got denied for a purchase. It happens to people somewhat regularly, mistakes are made, and this is why there is an appeals process in place. Being denied is not a crime; the crime lies in willfully lying when you answer the questions on the 4473, which is an act of perjury.

Just go fill out the damn form. As for your particular question in this thread, I'm fairly certain that an FFL is only permitted to perform a NICS check in concert with a purchase.

Quiet
April 21, 2008, 03:40 AM
In CA and NV, you can contact the state to perform a background check to see if you can legally own/possess a firearm.

Powderman
April 21, 2008, 04:31 AM
OK, I just read the other two threads. Two questions:

1. What State did this occur in, and:
2. What was the codification of the crime, and what was the punishment that you could have received?

newbie4help
April 21, 2008, 12:03 PM
It was a fake ID charge, it was DEFERRED and EXPUNGED and therefore I am OKAY technically. Don't know if it was felony or misdemeanor but that *************DOES NOT MATTER ************* Read the important notices on form 4473 - it says plain as day that if its been expunged you're not convicted and answer "no" to that question - in fact answering yes would technically be lying because you've never been convicted if that is the case. But all I had expunged was arrest and the docket about my deferred adjudication because I WAS NEVER CONVICTED ANYWAY. In other words, a deferred doesn't even count as a conviction in the state it happened in anyway.

There is absolutely, 1000% no doubt that technically I am okay. I have never been convicted of anything, and even if I had been it was expunged. Case closed.

I'm just freaked out it's going to be a system error. That is my sole worry. Or if there is some other stupid thing I don't know about like a parking ticket I forgot to pay etc.

dmickey
April 21, 2008, 12:55 PM
Couldn't you wait until your 21st birthday before you started drinking? I'm 61 and I never bothered to start.

NavyLCDR
April 21, 2008, 01:35 PM
Cripes, just go in, fill out the paperwork, NO I've never been convicted of a felony, be on your way. Get it over with. Get your feet wet. If you have never stood before a judge and the judge whacked the gavel and said "I find you guilty" then you were never convicted.

romma
April 21, 2008, 01:44 PM
Um,, there are a lot of people that simply don't know if they are qualified.

I know people that were convicted of misdemeanors that are now classified as felonies.

People that were pardoned that don't know if they are qualified.

People that had expungments that don't know if they are qualified.

And on and on.

Sniper X
April 21, 2008, 01:48 PM
If you werent convicted, there is no record of the conviction. Therefore, that arrest, incident will not be a record of something the NICS will see or be concerned about. I had a freind who had a felony DUI 5 years ago, and buys guns all the time becuase he never gets denied.

misANTHrope
April 21, 2008, 01:54 PM
For God's sake, you know you're OK, so you have nothing to worry about. The absolute worst thing that could conceivably happen is that you go in, end up getting denied, and spend a fair amount of time dealing with the appeals process.

If you get denied, black helicopters will not disgorge Gestapo shock troops onto your lawn at o-dark-thirty. You have nothing to worry about, seriously.

NavyLCDR
April 21, 2008, 01:57 PM
But there is no automatic handcuffing of a person who gets denied. If the guy has several felony convictions, or a blatant, yes you were found guilty, yes you were fined, then I can see reporting to the police for an attempted illegal gun buy. But that would be the dealer who would report it, not NICS.

If you are buying from a dealer that will call the cops over every denial by NICS, then you need to find a different dealer. Any reputable dealer with a denial is just going to tell the person that they were denied and try to work with them by providing forms, etc to get the issue resolved so they can sell a gun.

And besides, does a dealer even get informed as to why it was denied? The individual must request from NICS the reason for denial and NICS is supposed to respond within 5 days.

NavyLCDR
April 21, 2008, 01:59 PM
Just call NICS and ask them: 1-877-444-NICS (6427)

Here is the website, as well:
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/nics/nicsappeals.htm

Go all the way to the bottom for contact info.

NC Dave
April 21, 2008, 02:51 PM
If your application is denied, you will not be in any trouble. That has been covered many times in this thread.

Here's a question...if your records are screwed-up, don't you want to know so that you can get them fixed. If your are denied a purchased because of an error in your records, you have a nice appeal process in place to get it all addressed and then it will never be a problem again.

If you call on your own and they say you would bedenied, you have nothing to appeal because you were not really deniedanything. In other words, you did not actually try to make a purchase. You would still be stuck trying to get your record cleared on your own. Why not use the appeal process already in place to help you if your records are, in fact, wrong?

(I'm not a lawyer - that this for the free internet advice that it is!)

claytonfaulkner
April 21, 2008, 02:56 PM
My stepdaughters ex boyfriend was dumb enough to call the county courthouse to ask if they could check for warrants. they told him there was a five dollar fee & he had to be present for them to do the check ( I'm sure you can see this one coming) Of course he had warrants and he was arrested on the spot.
I think the moral of the story is self explanitory.


wow, thats awesome

Im283
April 21, 2008, 02:59 PM
Everyone is right with what they are telling you. What aren't you coming clean about?

I was denied on a purchase last summer due to an un-adjudicated arrest. If found guilty of this arrest I would have been denied permanently.

The gun shop gave me the paper to fill out for the appeal, they faxed it right then. In about 7 days I got a phone call saying I was approved.

My little problem was dismissed a couple of months later. (I was really truly NOT GUILTY btw)

So go and do it, what do you have to lose?

coloradokevin
April 21, 2008, 03:56 PM
It was a fake ID charge, it was DEFERRED and EXPUNGED and therefore I am OKAY technically. Don't know if it was felony or misdemeanor

If it was honestly just a fake ID, I doubt it is a problem... Around here a fake ID is a city ticket charge (your laws may vary). If, on the other hand, we are talking about a full-blown Criminal Impersonation case (by my laws), then you would have been looking at a felony charge.

Look at your local statutes. Also, if you said that you are "technically" okay, then where is the issue here?

Like some of the others have said, it seems like you are asking this question because there is something you aren't coming clean about. If you are a convicted felon (and I don't believe that you wouldn't know the answer to that question), then you are not allowed to own a gun.

SaltH2OHokie
April 21, 2008, 04:00 PM
After reading this and the other 2 threads I'm forced to assume that either A.) It was a felony and that's what's freaking you out or B.) There's something else you're worried about, such as a different conviction, etc.

That being said, if my assumptions are wrong, and they usually are: just GO DO IT!

No reason not to (unless one of my assumptions is correct, in which case you may have other stuff to worry about).

Powderman
April 21, 2008, 05:14 PM
It was a fake ID charge, it was DEFERRED and EXPUNGED and therefore I am OKAY technically. Don't know if it was felony or misdemeanor but that *************DOES NOT MATTER ************* Read the important notices on form 4473 - it says plain as day that if its been expunged you're not convicted and answer "no" to that question - in fact answering yes would technically be lying because you've never been convicted if that is the case. But all I had expunged was arrest and the docket about my deferred adjudication because I WAS NEVER CONVICTED ANYWAY. In other words, a deferred doesn't even count as a conviction in the state it happened in anyway.

There is absolutely, 1000% no doubt that technically I am okay. I have never been convicted of anything, and even if I had been it was expunged. Case closed.

I'm just freaked out it's going to be a system error. That is my sole worry. Or if there is some other stupid thing I don't know about like a parking ticket I forgot to pay etc.

Well, if it doesn't matter, why are you worried?

By the way, you want to get an actual record of the expungement. Contact the Clerk of the Court where your case was tried. Get another certified copy of the Court order, and keep it safe. It might come in handy some day.

And yes, the system does burp from time to time, and NICS will place a hold on you for any number of reasons.

So, don't worry about it. Head to the gun store, buy your favorite toy and tell us about it when you get it. :)

@ Sniper X:

I had a freind who had a felony DUI 5 years ago, and buys guns all the time becuase he never gets denied.

If this guy was convicted, I don't think that I would hang around him too much--and if he was convicted, I sure would not brag about the multiple Federal felonies he is committing by purchasing and possessing firearms and/or ammunition.

Just food for thought....:evil:

newbie4help
April 21, 2008, 07:53 PM
No offense, but people need to brush up on their reading comprehension skills around here :neener:

Why would I not "come clean" this is the internet lol.

I never said I "didn't know if I was convicted of a felony" - I know that I was NOT because whatever the ID charge was (which is all I would have on my record, period) was deferred and expunged. I do not recall if it was classified felony or misdemeanor but again that is totally irrelevant. I do not have anything else on my record - not even unpaid parking tickets.

I was only freaked out because of a chance that something will pop up. But I called NICS and spoke to a lady who was very helpful - she said that even if it was felony because it was deferred I am cool. At worst I might get delayed while they have to look into it if they see an arrest still despite it being expunged. She told me to answer "no" and that is what I will do. The worst I will have to do is get my records updated to be able to purchase a firearm.

I tend to freak out over small things like this but I guess it's better safe than sorry. Apparently some people around here don't know what it's like having some stupid charge as a kid hanging over their heads. Sigh...

My big lesson from this is a) I will never let my kids do anything stupid to hang over their heads and b) we really need to reform our ridiculous gun laws. The bad guys are going to get guns anyway and honest people shouldn't have to jump through these hoops.

SaltH2OHokie
April 21, 2008, 08:57 PM
I got a ticket for underage consumption of alcohol my freshman year of college. It was deferred and subsequently dropped after a year of cleanliness on my part.

I thought about the possibility of that popping up before I bought my first handgun for about 30seconds before I realized that if it did come up, I'd just have to get my record straight and then buy the gun. No big deal.

It didn't come up and I've never had a problem...

mekender
April 21, 2008, 09:03 PM
when i applied for a purchase permit here in NC, the lady said that a misdemeanor arrest had popped up and that it showed that i was originally charged with a felony that was dropped to a misdemeanor... thing is, i was charged with "accessory to criminal mischief" a 2nd degree misdemeanor in FL... the lady here in NC said that she almost denied me, but she called FL and they verified that what i was telling her was correct... so im kinda in the same boat, im gonna be doing my first NCIS based purchase next weekend... and we shall see what happens...

RP88
April 21, 2008, 09:06 PM
as said, purposely lying is what lands you in jail. Simply not knowing that you had something that disqualifies you usually won't get you any trouble (unless it was something obvious and you lied about, or if you supplied false personal info like a fake SSN, or if they find out that you have a warrant out, etc. etc.)

I filled my first one out when I bought an Ultra-87 shotgun at a gun show this past weekend, and it really was not a big deal at all. All of the questions are very straightforward and obvious. If you were to be legitimately disqualified, then you'd know right as you were filling it out (at least most of the time).

suemarkp
April 21, 2008, 10:51 PM
Newbie4help, are you sure your arrest was expunged? Around here, I don't think that can ever be undone. There is actually nothing wrong with an arrest, as it is possible that no charges were even filed following an arrest.

You will most likely get a delay if this was a forgery charge or other felony. The NICS checkers seem to give up if they can't find a disposition to go with a felony arrest and you wait the full 3 business days. If your state is good about putting expungements into the NICS system, then they will know what happened and you'll get a short delay or perhaps even a go. But I don't think many or perhaps any states do this.

Powderman
April 21, 2008, 11:11 PM
No offense, but people need to brush up on their reading comprehension skills around here

Actually, if I dare say so myself, you have given the people you ask for advice almost nothing to help you with. There are at least four LEO in this thread that are trying to answer you in a forthright and correct manner.

You are being VERY vague with the charge that was filed. Pardon me for saying so, and if this does not apply to you, then forgive me; but, in my experience when I ask someone a question concerning criminal activity and they are vague about their answer, it usually means that they are hiding something. Go ahead, and ask me how many times I've heard about the standard "two drinks" when I've pulled someone over who is weaving all over the road.

So, once again--what is the EXACT charge, and the level of offense you were charged with?

newbie4help
April 22, 2008, 12:00 AM
Powderman:

Uh...like I said I'm not sure. It was like 5 years ago. Deferred and expunged. I was caught with fake ID in a bar. Just assume it's a felony - what's worst case scenario here? I am 100% that it was deferred and after com. service dismissed - no conviction. NICS told me themselves this was not a conviction, even if it was a felony charge, because I was never *convicted* of anything, and at any rate it was expunged. I had an LEO run a check on me after I got it dismissed and he said he couldn't even find the arrest records so I hope he did a thorough search - he said it was same FBI used.

I already said all of this before. There's nothing "vague" here. Just **assume** it's a felony (after all that's all that would really matter for getting delayed right?). What's the worst that could happen from a deferred, then dismissed, then expunged felony?

NavyLCDR
April 22, 2008, 12:02 AM
You're welcome for the phone number to NICS customer service :D

Powderman
April 22, 2008, 12:14 AM
DUUUUUUUDE!!!

And here we all are, getting fizzed up over nothing. Literally, nothing.

I'm not sure what State you're in, but here in WA, you have 66.44.310, Misrepresentation of Age (Minors in Liquor Establishment). That's a misdemeanor--not gross misdemeanor, just a TICKET.

You appear in Court, the Judge reams you (especially for first offenses) and you're done. Keep your nose clean, and it's gone.

There are different classifications to criminal behavior. You have Felonies, Gross Misdemeanors, Misdemeanors, and Stupid Teenage Behavior. (:)). Guess which one you were guilty of?

Go forth now, and buy your firearm with confidence. Fire much ammunition. Enjoy!

(BTW, what are you buying?)

newbie4help
April 22, 2008, 12:48 AM
Powderman:

Lol. It was definitely at least a misdemeanor. I saw the statute - the state I was in was unusually harsh on fake IDs (although in the college town they just used them to get money from college kids - pretty ridiculous). My lawyer (who later became assistant DA in that town) was pretty outraged at how draconian they were about it. I'm not as nervous after hearing everybody's response on here and talking to NICS. Seems like they'd only get you if you egregiously lied and had some major thing on your record/warrant etc.

If you're an LEO can you run my check for me if I give you my info? The NICS lady said that some law enforcement will do this as a favor.

I'm getting a Glock 17 (generic I know - but they're fun to shoot and easy to maintain and 9mm is cheap !)

newbie4help
April 22, 2008, 12:53 AM
Thanks NavyLT!

Powderman
April 22, 2008, 01:31 AM
Newbie, unfortunately I cannot. Neither can any other LEO--unless they have an official reason to make contact with you.

Access to NCIC/III or your State's criminal history records (CHRI) requires an official reason to do the check. Reason? To keep abuses of private information from happening.

Our checks are run through our Dispatch--as with any other law enforcement agency. Each query has to be logged by Dispatch--and IS logged through your State's database. Records are inspected and audited on a frequent and unannounced schedule. You can be fired and/or criminally charged for abuses of the database.

If you REALLY want to run a CHRI on yourself, some States offer a service to do so. Contact your local State Patrol office for details--they are the ones that usually run and administer the database.

coloradokevin
April 22, 2008, 05:06 AM
You are being VERY vague with the charge that was filed. Pardon me for saying so, and if this does not apply to you, then forgive me; but, in my experience when I ask someone a question concerning criminal activity and they are vague about their answer, it usually means that they are hiding something. Go ahead, and ask me how many times I've heard about the standard "two drinks" when I've pulled someone over who is weaving all over the road.

Yup... 99.5% of the folks have had two drinks. And, everything else Powderman has said in this thread is pretty much dead on.


Newbie,

You've received a thread full of good advice... Superficially you are essentially telling us that you received a city ticket charge in any area where the rest of us work as LEOs (I guess it is a misd. in your area?).

Anyway, go forth and buy yourself a nice gun!

chaoszen
June 15, 2008, 10:05 AM
I recently got a NICS denial and filed for an appeal and the reason for the denial. I was told I was a fugitive from justice. I did not know I was a fugitive from justice. So when I filled out the 4473 technically I lied. Ignorance is no excuse, so they say. So with that sort of "rationale" I had, I suppose commited perjury. I was immediately arrested and sent to Guantanomo and relentlessly waterboarded by a facist government. Just Kidding! They sent me a fingerprint card and told me to go down to the cop shop and pony up the price of fingerprinting. I balked. No way Jose! I contacted the DA where I suspected a problem and was told that those charges were dropped and there was no longer a warrant(s). The ATF still says im a wanted man and can't buy a firearm. Apparently the state does not communicate with the feds. And they want my damn fingerprints and the dismissal papers. I thought the second amendment said "shall not be abridged". Oh well.. The good ole U.S.A and the shredded constitution.

Powderman
June 15, 2008, 04:57 PM
They sent me a fingerprint card and told me to go down to the cop shop and pony up the price of fingerprinting. I balked. No way Jose!

Why did you balk?

Especially after a prosecutor told you there were no charges?

What was your original offense?

chaoszen
June 15, 2008, 10:41 PM
I guess I balked because I really don't like the idea of the federal government having a copy of my fingerprints, or for that matter a sample of my urine or my DNA. I guess it's because I want to be free from tyranny. I guess its because I would like to live in a country where the constitution is respected and where the rights of the individual actually mean something. I respect the rule of law. But when that law infringes on my basic rights to "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness", I guess I balk...

tinygnat219
June 15, 2008, 10:50 PM
DO NOT ask an FFL holder to run a background check for you. Why do that when you can request a copy of your FBI record?

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/fprequest.htm

This is useful to have in your possession if you are ever denied a gun purchase. I have been told having a copy of your FBI record "greases the skids" in an appeal process.

It would also help to get a letter from the DA in the jurisdiction you had the charge dropped. This will help them correct things on their end.

I don't worry about them having a copy of my fingerprints since they already have them for other reason.

Real simple, all it takes is 18 bucks and some time. Rmember, paperwork is your friend.

chaoszen
June 15, 2008, 11:27 PM
Thanks tinygnat219 for the link. I already have had the dismissal papers faxed to me. And im sure the FBI already has my fingerprints. Im just really tired of jumping through the hoops. The law doesn't stop criminals or terrorists from obtaining firearms. It just puts up roadblocks for average citizens. The fingerprint fee here is $15.00 but I had to pay a restocking fee for the shotgun i bought,when they had to send it back because of this B.S.

chaoszen
June 16, 2008, 12:28 AM
:cool:Concerning the charges, the odd thing is im not exactly sure. When they sent me the "States Motion to Dismiss Indictment and Judgement" it only referenced two case numbers. So I don't really know the specifics of the charges. I do know it was over 18 years ago and that at that time I was in trouble for just waking up in the morning. If it looks like im being vague, it's because that period of my life is a bit hazy. I asked what it was concerning, but the DA's secretary was reluctant to go over the specifics on the phone. so unless I can access the case files somehow I will never know for sure. And I really don't wish to relive my past. I do know that I was never convicted of anything. Charged Yes, Convicted No. Everyone has a bit of dirty laundry, and if they dont they are not living life. I have stayed out of trouble for nearly two decades, that should mean something.

Powderman
June 16, 2008, 01:01 AM
Concerning the charges, the odd thing is im not exactly sure. When they sent me the "States Motion to Dismiss Indictment and Judgement" it only referenced two case numbers. So I don't really know the specifics of the charges. I do know it was over 18 years ago and that at that time I was in trouble for just waking up in the morning. If it looks like im being vague, it's because that period of my life is a bit hazy. I asked what it was concerning, but the DA's secretary was reluctant to go over the specifics on the phone. so unless I can access the case files somehow I will never know for sure. And I really don't wish to relive my past. I do know that I was never convicted of anything. Charged Yes, Convicted No. Everyone has a bit of dirty laundry, and if they dont they are not living life. I have stayed out of trouble for nearly two decades, that should mean something.

If you wish, you can get the specifics of your case. That is your privilege and your right.

Simply contact the clerk of the Court you were seen in, or where your case was filed and ask.

Be aware that there are some things that will prohibit you from owning a firearm, even though they aren't felony convictions. Assault, whether domestic violence related or not is one. Any restraining order or order of protection will flag you. A dishonorable discharge is counted as a Federal felony conviction, and will prohibit firearms ownership.

Only you know the particulars and specifics of your case. If there are matters of extenuation or mitigation, I urge you to contact the Court within your jurisdiction.

feedthehogs
June 16, 2008, 09:27 AM
I wouldn't take the chance. :uhoh:

With the patriot act, fake id's are no joke anymore.:what:

Now if they have a suspicion a felony's been committed, they can just walk right in there anytime they feel like it, 'cause they got a badge, they got a gun, and they got the love of Jesus right there in their pretty green eyes.:eek:

As soon as they call it in, your gonna see more cops, more drug sniffing dogs, , more ATF officers.:(

random_gun
November 9, 2011, 10:23 PM
Why some guys like judging people so much? Someone who might not be in the database can get denied... It is a lot of hassle to get the gun shipped to the FFL and then find out you can't pick it up until weeks later after you file the appeal....

JShirley
November 9, 2011, 11:03 PM
Welcome to THR. Unfortunately, a 3-year-old thread is probably not the best place for your first post.

John

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