Anyone familiar with IL buying and selling laws please help.


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The Swede
April 21, 2008, 11:46 PM
I want to sell one of my firearms in the buy/sell section. I see some people from IL say 'face to face' only. I am assuming they don't want to deal with the cost of FFL transfers. My question is whether or not this is legal.

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iamkris
April 21, 2008, 11:52 PM
Completely legal.

You are obligated, however, to check each others FOID and to record that information. You are supposed to keep that record for 10 years.

NavyLCDR
April 21, 2008, 11:54 PM
As long as you verify that you are selling to an Illinois resident, and the have a valid FOID card, it's perfectly legal.

The Swede
April 21, 2008, 11:56 PM
Thank you very much for the responses. So my next question is, why would anyone go through the hassle of a FFL transfer?

NavyLCDR
April 22, 2008, 12:18 AM
FFL transfer is required for you to sell it to someone out of state. You ship the firearm to an FFL in the buyer's state for transfer to the buyer.

NavyLCDR
April 22, 2008, 12:38 AM
Here's a link to the statute in its entirety, and the parts of the statute that apply. I don't see anywhere in th statute where a record is required to be kept of the sale, let alone for 10 years. Maybe I am missing something in the statute:

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=072000050HArt%2E+24&ActID=1876&ChapAct=720%26nbsp%3BILCS%26nbsp%3B5%2F&ChapterID=53&ChapterName=CRIMINAL+OFFENSES&SectionID=60752&SeqStart=50800000&SeqEnd=53500000&ActName=Criminal+Code+of+1961%2E

(720 ILCS 5/24‑3) (from Ch. 38, par. 24‑3)
Sec. 24‑3. Unlawful Sale of Firearms.
(A) A person commits the offense of unlawful sale of firearms when he or she knowingly does any of the following:
(a) Sells or gives any firearm of a size which may be concealed upon the person to any person under 18 years of age.
(b) Sells or gives any firearm to a person under 21 years of age who has been convicted of a misdemeanor other than a traffic offense or adjudged delinquent.
(c) Sells or gives any firearm to any narcotic addict.
(d) Sells or gives any firearm to any person who has been convicted of a felony under the laws of this or any other jurisdiction.
(e) Sells or gives any firearm to any person who has been a patient in a mental hospital within the past 5 years.
(f) Sells or gives any firearms to any person who is mentally retarded.
(g) Delivers any firearm of a size which may be concealed upon the person, incidental to a sale, without withholding delivery of such firearm for at least 72 hours after application for its purchase has been made, or delivers any rifle, shotgun or other long gun, or a stun gun or taser, incidental to a sale, without withholding delivery of such rifle, shotgun or other long gun, or a stun gun or taser for at least 24 hours after application for its purchase has been made. ... For purposes of this paragraph (g), "application" means when the buyer and seller reach an agreement to purchase a firearm. ...
(i) Sells or gives a firearm of any size to any person under 18 years of age who does not possess a valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card. ...

(k) Sells or transfers ownership of a firearm to a person who does not display to the seller or transferor of the firearm a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card that has previously been issued in the transferee's name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of the Firearm Owners Identification Card Act. This paragraph (k) does not apply to the transfer of a firearm to a person who is exempt from the requirement of possessing a Firearm Owner's Identification Card under Section 2 of the Firearm Owners Identification Card Act. For the purposes of this Section, a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card means (i) a Firearm Owner's Identification Card that has not expired or (ii) if the transferor is licensed as a federal firearms dealer under Section 923 of the federal Gun Control Act of 1968 (18 U.S.C. 923), an approval number issued in accordance with Section 3.1 of the Firearm Owners Identification Card Act shall be proof that the Firearm Owner's Identification Card was valid.

Neo-Luddite
April 22, 2008, 01:28 AM
Seller must keep the record for 10 years in IL--I don't know the chapter and verse off hand, but they actually put it on the back of the FOID card.
It must be provided upon request of ANY LEO--no reason needed.

sctman800
April 22, 2008, 04:24 AM
Don't forget (g) all handguns have a three day waiting period and long guns are 24 hours. Yes it is stupid, but to be completley legal that applies to private face to face sales also. Jim.

isp2605
April 22, 2008, 09:31 AM
I don't see anywhere in th statute where a record is required to be kept of the sale, let alone for 10 years. Maybe I am missing something in the statute:

You're just not doing enough research. That is often the problem with laymen not familiar with the law giving legal advice. They read the first statute and fail to do a complete research of the statutes and also fail to research court rulings.
Here's where the statute says you have to maintain records for 10 yrs:

(430 ILCS 65/3) (from Ch. 38, par. 83‑3)
(b) Any person within this State who transfers or causes to be transferred any firearm, stun gun, or taser shall keep a record of such transfer for a period of 10 years from the date of transfer. Such record shall contain the date of the transfer; the description, serial number or other information identifying the firearm, stun gun, or taser if no serial number is available; and, if the transfer was completed within this State, the transferee's Firearm Owner's Identification Card number. On or after January 1, 2006, the record shall contain the date of application for transfer of the firearm. On demand of a peace officer such transferor shall produce for inspection such record of transfer. If the transfer or sale took place at a gun show, the record shall include the unique identification number. Failure to record the unique identification number is a petty offense.

===========

Also, sctman800 is correct on the waiting periods even for private sales. It's in 24-3.

Kingcreek
April 22, 2008, 10:08 AM
I keep a simple file folder with all sales and purchases with a photocopy of the buyer's/seller's FOID, date, and description incl serial #. Then, every once in a while, I go through it and shred any over 10 years. pretty simple.
I keep a seperate digital file of any firearms I currently own with values, descriptions, and pics. This inventory file gets copied to CD and kept in a safe deposit box for insurance purposes.
comply with the law AND protect yourself.

NavyLCDR
April 22, 2008, 11:44 AM
You're just not doing enough research. That is often the problem with laymen not familiar with the law giving legal advice. They read the first statute and fail to do a complete research of the statutes and also fail to research court rulings.

Who the hell was giving legal advice? I was only posting what I found in the statutes. And I clearly stated:
Maybe I am missing something in the statute

That's why we have these DISCUSSIONS on here, it's for the betterment of all our knowledge.

Thank you, non-layman for setting us all straight and for putting me in my proper place.

isp2605
April 22, 2008, 12:08 PM
Who the hell was giving legal advice?
I wasn't giving legal advice. I was giving the statutes that covered the question. They aren't hard to research, you just need to take the time and know where to look. You didn't take the time or either you didn't know where to look. Had the person taken just your information they would have been violating IL law. That's why before giving "I don't see anywhere in th statute where a record is required to be kept of the sale" then make make sure you cover all the bases. You didn't.

Thank you, non-layman for setting us all straight and for putting me in my proper place.
Just so you'll know, layman, that I spent 35 yrs researching those type questions and responding with the answers on almost a daily basis.

NavyLCDR
April 22, 2008, 02:00 PM
I wasn't giving legal advice.

I was not accusing you of giving legal advice. I was responding to your accusation of me giving legal advice.

that I spent 35 yrs researching those type questions and responding with the answers on almost a daily basis.

Good, now we all know that we can count on your posts as gospel coming from an obvious expert, albeit self-proclaimed.

isp2605
April 22, 2008, 03:02 PM
Good, now we all know that we can count on your posts as gospel coming from an obvious expert, albeit self-proclaimed.
I'm no "self-proclaimed" expert, altho my agency, the IL Legislature, IL Supreme Ct, and the IL Law Enforcement Training and Standards Board thought so as they all relied on me to provide research and opinions.
My point is if you're going to give advice then make sure it's accurate and complete. Yours wasn't and as a result placed someone in jeopardy of violating the law had they taken only your info. In other words, you spoke before you had all the facts. I'm sure that really doesn't matter to you as had the OP gotten jammed up then what would you care. It's not you who would be facing the charges.

NavyLCDR
April 22, 2008, 05:52 PM
if you're going to give advice then make sure it's accurate and complete.

Sir, (I looked at your profile),

I wasn't giving advice. I was merely posting what I had found in the statutes. If there was a reference made to 430 ILCS 65 by number in 720 ILCS 5/24 I would have went and looked at 430 ILCS to see what it said. So, if you could please lend your expert advice to the Illinois legislature to relate the two statutes together by means of numbered references that would help.

I do care about people. That is why I take the time to research the various states' statutes and post what I find and where I found it. I don't give just my opinion and leave it at that. I merely stated that in the statute which seemed to pertain to and cover a private sale of a firearm it made no mention of a 10 year document requirement. At least that requirement is apparantly printed on the back of the card, but that requirement should be referenced to in 720 ILCS where the rest of the sale requirements are.

Very Respectfully,
Navy LT

isp2605
April 22, 2008, 06:04 PM
I wasn't giving advice. I was merely posting what I had found in the statutes. If there was a reference made to 430 ILCS 65 by number in 720 ILCS 5/24 I would have went and looked at 430 ILCS to see what it said.
Thank you for proving my original point which was "That is often the problem with laymen not familiar with the law giving legal advice". You have shown exactly why I wrote that. You don't have any knowledge of how statutes are written. You seem to think one statute references another. They don't reference like you think they should. Sorry, but that's the way laws are written, not the way you think they should be.
Once again, thanks for proving my point of the dangers of layman trying to research the law. It took a while but you've finally explained my point for me. Thanks.
Now quit whining. You got caught outside your field. For whatever reason you decided to get into an area which you are not familar and got caught posting something you know nothing about. The OP asked legit questions and deserves a full, accurate answer, not something from someone who now, finally, admits they don't know how to research legislation and didn't know the answer.

NavyLCDR
April 22, 2008, 06:13 PM
Sir,

With all due respect to your previous rank,
Whatever.

All of us non-experts will quit looking up the laws with which we are expected to abide and we'll all hire our own private attorneys to keep our butts out of trouble. That's what America is based on, correct? Writing laws that take lawyers to decipher and judges to tell the lawyers how they interpret the laws incorrectly and then defense lawyers to find loopholes to get persons actually guilty off.

This forum is a public forum. Anybody coming here for free armchair advice should expect to receive free armchair advice. If they don't want free armchair advice then they should pay a lawyer. I gave it my best shot. I looked it up. What burns my lowly O-3 behind is that you come here and just blast away at me for honestly posting what I found by my research. I feel like I have at least a little respect by others on this board who appreciate the fact that I attempt to research what the written statutes are. You are going to have the last word on this post. Go ahead and say everything you want to say about me on this post, I give you the floor with no more response by me on this thread.

scythefwd
April 22, 2008, 06:51 PM
LT, ISP
The question has been answered. Could we leave the childish bickering where it belongs and take "TheHighRoad".

ISP - OK, you gave the more complete answer. Good for you. Attaboy. Who proves who's point is irrelevent and doesn't add to the signal/noise ratio, but have at it if you wish (read as I respect your right to free speech).

LT - I agree that you invited more research on the statutes. Getting defensive and wording your posts as you did (they read sarcastic to me) only escalates the issue. The personal barbs were just uncalled for imho, but it's your perogative (read as I respect your right to free speech). There is a quote in a creed I once took "I am proud of the corps of the Noncomissioned officer and will at all times conduct myself so as to bring credit upon the corps, the military service, any my country reguardless of the situation in which I find myself." I realize that you are not an NCO, but by posting your military affiliation and rank, you have affiliated yourself with the military service. Please remember your candor. I ask this so that others with service, past and present, may be judged by your actions as we undoubtedly will be because of our affiliation.


EDIT - post got cut off half way through -

Swede, the instructions are fairly clear on the back of your FOID card. I would recommend you download and look through the statutes listed on the back (if they aren't any more, they used to be). I found them quite easy to understand, but IF you have any questions on how a phrase is worded and how it should be interpreted, feel free to come back and ask. I would also contact your sheriffs office to see if they can tell you bluntly the regulations, if they aren't too.... anal in your area.

isp2605
April 22, 2008, 09:02 PM
I really don't care what your rank is. It doesn't matter one bit. Why you feel the need to bring it up is another point that is beyond me. No one cares. As an officer you should have learned somewhere along the way not to try to BS your way thru something. If you don't know then say so but don't BS.
My point along has been if you're going to post something then make sure it's something you know something about what it is you are posting about, particularly when it involves legal issues. Sure you did "research". And you proved exactly my point about laymen doing research. That was my point which got your panties in a wad but the more you posted the more you proved my exact point and which you admitted. The fact remains you are outside your lane and, as is all too common on these forums, people post garbage when they have no idea what they're writing about. Whether they do it to inflate their ego hoping they think they sound intelligent or blow smoke hoping someone will think they know more than they do, I haven't figured it out why. Fact remains, if a person doesn't know what it is they're talking about then they're better off not showing how little they know by posting something that isn't accurate. Remember the saying "It is better to be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt."
If you don't want people to jump on you for your posts then stick with topics which you are familar and don't try posting something which you know nothing about. This is not about "discussion". The OP asked a question wanting an answer. If you want to discuss a topic then boards are free to discuss topics. However, when someone asks a legit question then they are entitled to a legit answer, not one from someone who doesn't know the answer but does "research" which is not relevant to the question. Simply put, if you try BSing you're going to get caught. When you get caught then don't whine about it.
End of discussion.

Gator
April 22, 2008, 10:21 PM
Swede, here (http://www.isp.state.il.us/foid/) is a link to the ISP Firearms info page. Check the "Acquiring or Transferring Firearms in Illinois Brochure."

NukemJim
April 23, 2008, 07:20 AM
Uhm, a point of clarafication please from those more knowledgeable than I.

On or after January 1, 2006, the record shall contain the date of application for transfer of the firearm.

I do not understand the underlined part for a FTF sale.

Are they refering to the start of the waiting period?

Any assistance is appreciated.

Thank you

NukemJim

isp2605
April 23, 2008, 08:42 AM
NukemJim - that's correct. They made a statutory change to require documentation of the 24/72 hr waiting periods.

NukemJim
April 23, 2008, 07:43 PM
isp2605,
Thank you
NukemJim

Top_Notch
April 23, 2008, 10:23 PM
Being from Illinois and around your area, what are you selling? Be right back, I'm going to check the for sale section.

Anyway, when I sold mine, I did follow the 3 day rule. I received a deposit of $20 and "sold" the gun, then 3 days later I received the remaining funds and transferred the gun. We both swapped a bill of sale with dates and pertinant information including copies of FOID cards.

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