Friend wants a gun but cant buy one due to being a traveler, need advise..


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earl_je
April 22, 2008, 12:45 AM
I'm fairly new to gun ownership but getting pretty addicted to it. I'm hoping to eventually get into competitive shooting when I gain more experience.

Anyway, a good friend of mine was also very interested in joining my newfound hobby. He is a resident immigrant alien greencard holder and works as a traveling RN in Colorado. We tried buying his first pistol at a local sportsman's warehouse but went home empty handed since they asked for his 3 latest utility bills. As I mentioned earlier, he's a traveling RN so he really doesnt have a permanent residence, hence, no bills. He moves in-state (CO) to different towns every 3-6months with housing paid for by his company. How would he be able to purchase a handgun?

What are the legalities involved if I were to purchase the handgun, then sell it to him? What document would proove he is the new legal owner of the gun incase something happens? I completely trust him (been a longtime friend and he wouldnt be able to hurt a fly even if he tried) but still, how would I be rid of all the responsibility with the handgun I purchased instore then sold to him?

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Treo
April 22, 2008, 01:06 AM
Private gun sales are unregulated in Colorado, if he really wants a gun he should be able to buy one out of the paper.

If, however, YOU buy a gun W/ the intent to sell it to him to get around the residence requirements you are either breaking state or federal law I'm not sure which.

Does your freind not have a valid Colorado Drivers License or state issued I.D. card? Either should be suffcient to prove residency.

To be perfectly honest your story isn't adding up, I smell a troll

theken206
April 22, 2008, 01:11 AM
smells fishy to me as well

earl_je
April 22, 2008, 01:17 AM
What doesnt add up? He does have CO drivers license. Check with any sportsman's warehouse and ask what they require for resident aliens (not citizen yet, but greencard holder) they need proof of state residency for 3 months. They basically need latest 3 utility bills which he doesnt have since he's a traveling RN (try asking around, these med people get paid big bucks AND have free housing/auto)
Does that mean he cant buy his own gun just coz he doesnt have the utility bills?

Diggers
April 22, 2008, 01:24 AM
Wow! Slow down guys...pretty quick on the troll draw. :eek:

Maybe the OP is just new to all of this and doesn't know all the legal in and outs of buying a firearm....they can be pretty complicated at times.

Perhaps we can ask the OP for more info as to why his friend was refused before calling him a troll?

Here let me do it....

Say, earl_je, what exactly was your friend told when he tried to buy a gun?

** So did you ask if there was any other method that he could use to prove he lives in CO? Perhaps pay stubs for the last 3 months...something like that?

mekender
April 22, 2008, 01:51 AM
they should accept a notarized letter from his company saying that he is a resident of the state and that the company provides his housing... he needs to check with his local sheriffs office

Treo
April 22, 2008, 01:55 AM
QUOTE: "they need proof of state residency for 3 months."

My Colorado drivers license has the date of issue on it. & is accepted as proof of residency. 3 utility bills shouldn't be too hard to come by & if he has a valid drivers licence he shouldn't have any problem buying a firearm from a private seller.

earl_je
April 22, 2008, 02:17 AM
Was always under the impression people here in THR were friendly, helpful individuals. I truly am new to the world of handguns thus needed advise about a purchase. Obviously, some people are too paranoid about things and jump on false pretense. Should have posted elsewhere for answers..
BTW, found some answers here: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b13

Thanks for those who actually tried to help. :)

Treo
April 22, 2008, 02:29 AM
It sounds like you answered your own question three months worth of pay checks oughta do the trick.

Sorry if I sound paranoid dude, but we do get the odd anti troll in here every now & then & your friends story sounds like an entrapment case looking for a place to happen.

Like I said at first if YOU buy a gun W/ the intent of selling to him to beat the paperwork, YOU have commited a felony DON'T DO IT.

And also like I said he should be able to legally buy a gun from a private party, no ncis , no utility bills . no problem

tntwatt
April 22, 2008, 02:52 AM
I have a friend here from Nigeria on an immigrant work visa. He was able to buy his own firearm because he has a permanent residence. If your friend wants to keep travel nursing vs. getting a permanent job then he's going to have to face up to the fact that he can't get a firearm. He is only a temporary resident until he takes a permanent job. I've been a nurse for 17 years and have come across this before.

If you buy a gun with the intent of selling it to him it is called a straw purchase and is highly illegal in most states. Since he is an inelligible person and an immigrant, if you get caught, Homeland Security is going to eat you alive.

cambeul41
April 22, 2008, 05:41 AM
travel nursing vs. getting a permanent job

The way I read it, he does have a permanent job -- one that involves travel.

Pat-inCO
April 22, 2008, 06:29 AM
What are the legalities involved if I were to purchase the handgun, then sell it to him? What document would proove[sic] he is the new legal owner of the gun in case something happens?
Let's see, you are asking us to tell you HOW TO BREAK THE LAW. The first question on the BATF form is "Are you the actual buyer" (words to that effect). Therefore if YOU disregard the law, YOU are subject to long term JAIL TIME!

And you want US to help you break the law - GET LOST! :fire: :cuss:

Yas
April 22, 2008, 09:43 AM
What are the legalities involved if I were to purchase the handgun, then sell it to him? What document would proove he is the new legal owner of the gun incase something happens?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_purchase

You just described a straw deal. Thanks a lot from severely firearm restricted Northern Illinois.

rbernie
April 22, 2008, 09:47 AM
What are the legalities involved if I were to purchase the handgun, then sell it to him? What document would proove he is the new legal owner of the gun incase something happens? I completely trust him (been a longtime friend and he wouldnt be able to hurt a fly even if he tried) but still, how would I be rid of all the responsibility with the handgun I purchased instore then sold to him?This, you cannot do. You can sell him one of your firearms, but you cannot buy one for him with the INTENT of selling it to him. That is called a straw purchase and the .gov will frown upon that.

Your best bet is to figure out how your friend can legally buy a firearm on his own. He can, for example, do that via legal face2face transaction with another CO resident.

Private gun sales are unregulated in Colorado, if he really wants a gun he should be able to buy one out of the paper.

If, however, YOU buy a gun W/ the intent to sell it to him to get around the residence requirements you are either breaking state or federal law I'm not sure which.

Treo hit it, on the first reply to your post. It is against Federal law, by the way, to engage in a straw man purchase.

XDKingslayer
April 22, 2008, 10:39 AM
Was always under the impression people here in THR were friendly, helpful individuals. I truly am new to the world of handguns thus needed advise about a purchase. Obviously, some people are too paranoid about things and jump on false pretense. Should have posted elsewhere for answers..
BTW, found some answers here: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b13

Thanks for those who actually tried to help.

Yep.

Welcome to THR. "The Hypocrite Road".

Art Eatman
April 22, 2008, 11:01 AM
Seems to me that the idea of a notarized letter concerning his employment is a good one. I'd start there before continuing with an effort to purchase a firearm.

For BATFE, the "straw purchase" applies only if the recipient is not legally allowed to buy/own/possess a firearm. A Green-card person is not forbidden by law to own a firearm.

Since Sportsman's Warehouse is the source of the problem and not the law/regulation as written, I'd go to a different gunstore. I would make sure the seller was aware of the Green Card status.

BATFE regs are stickied at the top of this forum. You can read/print out, whatever...

waterhouse
April 22, 2008, 11:39 AM
For BATFE, the "straw purchase" applies only if the recipient is not legally allowed to buy/own/possess a firearm.

This is not correct. Any time the buyer is not the actual buyer (other than the gift exception), it is a "straw purchase."

From the Federal Code of Firearms Regulations:

16. "STRAW PURCHASES"
Questions have arisen concerning the lawfulness of firearms purchases
from licensees by persons who use a "straw purchaser" (another person) to
acquire the firearms. Specifically, the actual buyer uses the straw purchaser
to execute the Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the
actual purchaser of the firearm. In some instances, a straw purchaser is used
because the actual purchaser is prohibited from acquiring the firearm. That
is to say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is within one of the other
prohibited categories of persons who may not lawfully acquire firearms or is a
resident of a State other than that in which the licensee's business premises
is located. Because of his or her disability, the person uses a straw
purchaser who is not prohibited from purchasing a firearm from the licensee.
In other instances, neither the straw purchaser nor the actual purchaser is
prohibited from acquiring the firearm.
In both instances, the straw purchaser violates Federal law by making
false statements on Form 4473 to the licensee with respect to the identity of
the actual purchaser of the firearm, as well as the actual purchaser's
residence address and date of birth. The actual purchaser who utilized the
straw purchaser to acquire a firearm has unlawfully aided and abetted or
caused the making of the false statements. The licensee selling the firearm
under these circumstances also violates Federal law if the licensee is aware
of the false statements on the form. It is immaterial that the actual
purchaser and the straw purchaser are residents of the State in which the
licensee's business premises is located, are not prohibited from receiving or
possessing firearms, and could have lawfully purchased firearms from the
licensee.
An example of an illegal straw purchase is as follows: Mr. Smith asks
Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the
money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out Form 4473, he violates the law
by falsely stating that he is the actual buyer of the firearm. Mr. Smith also
violates the law because he has unlawfully aided and abetted or caused the
making of false statements on the form.
Where a person purchases a firearm with the intent of making a gift of
the firearm to another person, the person making the purchase is indeed the
true purchaser. There is no straw purchaser in these instances. In the above
example, if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm with his own money to give to Mr.
Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could lawfully have completed Form
4473. The use of gift certificates would also not fall within the category of
straw purchases. The person redeeming the gift certificate would be the
actual purchaser of the firearm and would be properly reflected as such in the
dealer's records.

If you wanted to battle this in court, you might use US vs. Charles Ray Polk. No. 96-40836, Fifth Circuit, which seems to say that if you are both legal to own a gun you will be OK, but the ATF doesn't seem to agree with this, and they will be the ones prosecuting.

Since Sportsman's Warehouse is the source of the problem and not the law/regulation as written

How so? Section 14 of the 4473 asks for country of citizenship. If you don't check the United States box, you list your county in the line next to "other." If you do so, then the dealer is required to check additional paperwork, and he must enter this information in Section 20.b "Aliens only". For this section, paperwork such as utility bills or lease agreements must be provided showing 90 days continuous residency.

It appears to me that Sportsman's was only following the law.

Sniper X
April 22, 2008, 11:44 AM
I think he can legally buy one from a private owner, but don't buy him one at a gunstore and sell it to him. Sell him yours and buy yourself another one, that is how us gun guys do it......Although I stopped selling guns, and kept buying them....please help me!

NavyLCDR
April 22, 2008, 12:55 PM
If you buy a gun with the intent of selling it to him it is called a straw purchase

So let me ask this. I see a great deal on a gun, let's say at a pawn shop. I don't want the gun, but I know they don't know what they have and I can sell it. So I buy it with only the intention of selling it. Is that a straw purchase?

If the allien resident is legal to purchase the firearm in Colorado, there is nothing wrong or illegal with earl_je purchasing the firearm from an FFL with his own money. He then walks out the door and makes a perfectly legal sale to his friend who purchases the gun from him. Even make up a bill of sale which both parties sign and keep a copy of. There is absolutely, positively nothing illegal about that, both sales are completely legal.

Once I buy a firearm, that firearm is mine to do with/dispose of as I see fit. If I bought a rifle and walked out of the store and bumped into a guy on the street and he says, wow! nice gun, I'll buy it for $15 more than you paid for it, and if he is a legal purchaser, I have broken no laws by selling it to him.

A straw purchase is an attempt to furnish a firearm to a person who is not eligible to possess the firearm. It is not turning around and selling a legally owned firearm, even is owned for only 10 minutes, to another person who is legally eligible to purchase that firearm.

Let's say a guy works for me in the Navy. He's 18 years old. He wants a particular handgun but can't buy it from an FFL. I tell him, if I have one of those guns will you buy it from me for $XXXX. He says, heck yes. I go and buy it and sell it to him the same day, or a week, or a month later. There is nothing illegal about that, it was my firearm to sell.

Treo
April 22, 2008, 01:26 PM
I'm not sure I'd bet my freedom or my RKBA on your argument.

If I see a really nice Kimber sitting in a pawn shop for 450.00$ & I buy it knowing that it's worth 2k that's one thing

But if I buy the same gun knowing when I buy it that I'm going to sell it to my buddy, who couldn't meet the requirements in the gunstore 5 minutes after you're out the door, it's a straw purchase.
You're not buying the gun because it's a 1500.00$ return on your investment, you're trying to beat the paper work
Your intent makes all the difference in the world.

P.S. My sincere apologies to anyone who was offended by my expression of mis-trust to our OP.
However, I would like to point out that as some one who is " new to firearms ownership" and unsure of the legalities he had no problem describing a perfect straw purchase & finding the exact ATF reg. that answered his question. I reserve the right to be a little suspicious

TX1911fan
April 22, 2008, 01:36 PM
pat-inCO, take a deep breath and stop being such a jerk. Never did he ask us to help him break the law. He asked if it WOULD be legal for him to do it that way. Contrary to what many people on this board think, not everyone is up to speed on the intricacies of straw purchases or the other arcane and byzantine rules of the BATFE. If that's the best advice and help you can give a new member of THR, maybe you should get lost.

waterhouse
April 22, 2008, 01:53 PM
Once I buy a firearm, that firearm is mine to do with/dispose of as I see fit. If I bought a rifle and walked out of the store and bumped into a guy on the street and he says, wow! nice gun, I'll buy it for $15 more than you paid for it, and if he is a legal purchaser, I have broken no laws by selling it to him.

Right. When you bought that gun, and you filled out the 4473, you were truthful when you answered "Yes, I am the actual buyer." At the time when you wrote "Yes" and then signed your name, you were buying that gun for yourself. If you were buying that gun to sell to someone else, you would not have been truthful.

Since the law is based on your intent at the time of purchase, I am guessing that it is fairly hard to prove guilt, but that is still the law.

A straw purchase is an attempt to furnish a firearm to a person who is not eligible to possess the firearm.

Once again, this is not true. Other than the gifting exception, if you buy a gun for another person, WHETHER THEY ARE LEGALLY ALLOWED TO OWN ONE OR NOT, it is a straw purchase. I have highlighted the aplicable sections in bold in post #17.

There is technically no law involving straw purchases that I have been able to find. It is not a legal term. It is just a term of that means "perjury that applies for lying on a 4473". When you lie on the 4473 and sign your name on the 4473 you are committing a felony.

Let's say a guy works for me in the Navy. He's 18 years old. He wants a particular handgun but can't buy it from an FFL. I tell him, if I have one of those guns will you buy it from me for $XXXX. He says, heck yes. I go and buy it and sell it to him the same day, or a week, or a month later. There is nothing illegal about that, it was my firearm to sell.

There is plenty illegal about that. Whether he gives you the money ahead of time to walk into the store, or he pays you later, if you buy the gun with the intent of it not actually being your gun, you lied on the 4473. Once again, this is a felony. If convicted, you forfeit all future gun ownership.

Does the ATF have better ways to spend their time than prosecuting people who buy a gun for their elderly neighbor, who may legally own a gun but has trouble getting down to the gun store? I hope so. But you never know.

NavyLCDR
April 22, 2008, 02:14 PM
OK. I just got off the phone with the ATF. The agent was a Navy Reserve Chief so we had a good conversation.

If the gun is purchased with the express purpose of subsequently selling it to another individual, he said, yes, it is technically a straw purchase whether that gun is sold to a person eligible to receive firearms or not.

If I purchase the gun for the express purpose of giving it to a person eligible to receive it as a gift, no that is not a straw purchase. I can even, if I desire, make a gift receipt that they sign stating the received the gun from me as a gift.

If that person then turns around and "gifts me" $xxxxx, according to the ATF agent, that is allowed also, or pays me $XXXX for the orange I also happen to be selling at the same time. So long as both individuals involved agree and know that the gun was purchased as a gift and both are eligible to receive that firearm.

He also said you have to be careful selling guns if you profit from the sale. If I find a good deal on a gun and buy it and turn around and sell it within a short period of time (he suggested <1 year) and make money on it, I can be considered dealing in firearms without a license.

He also stated that if I buy the gun, and then go to the gun range and shoot it with a friend later that day, and that friend then wants to buy it, that is legal also, because I did not purchase the gun with the intent to sell it. (again as long as he is eligible to purchase the gun).

So, bottom line, according to a Navy Reserve CPO who works at the Seattle office of the ATF, so long as both persons agree the gun is a gift, it does not matter to the ATF if money changes hands for some other reason.

waterhouse
April 22, 2008, 02:24 PM
So, bottom line, according to a Navy Reserve CPO who works at the Seattle office of the ATF, so long as both persons agree the gun is a gift, it does not matter to the ATF if money changes hands for some other reason.

I would want that in writing if I were going to stake my law abiding reputation on it.

If that 18 year old you bought that gun for shoots someone, and they ask him where he got the gun, and he says "I bought it from NavyLT. He bought it from the gun store for me," they are going to come talk to you.

Then they come to you, and you say "No Sir, that is not the case. I have here a signed piece of paper stating that the gun was a gift. I received no compensation for that transaction. Said 18 year old did in fact purchase a pencil I had on my desk that day for $475, but I assure you that was completely unrelated to the gun gifting. I spoke with an ATF agent on the phone who said this was OK."

There is a reason the Tech. Branch of the ATF does not answer phone questions. Everything must be in writing.

Sniper X
April 22, 2008, 02:35 PM
Truthfully there is a bunch of good information here and some speculation, as with pretty much any thread. I thik that the poster should also be a little suspecious about the fact that this guy is not a US citizen. That in itself can be very sticky. I suggest you buy the gun he wants for yourself, and after finding out he is totally legitimate make a legal sale transaction with paperwork at a later date. I beleive this to be a legal way. As long as you can afford the gun yourself.

dewage83
April 22, 2008, 02:55 PM
I would be careful. My firearms would not be on the line for someone elses gun purchase. so that said be careful what ever you do in this situation. I have to admit at 3 posts I am a little suspicious too. Especially since he hasnt posted again. But I would like to say. WELCOME TO HIGH ROAD. since noone has already said that, and if you ask a boarderline illegal question you will not get too many helpful responses (even if you dont know its illegal- asked a stupid question before lol) I would probably buy a gun and "realize" it was a piece after i shot it a couple times.... and i found out he legal can own a firearm!

....... or just bring him to the range with you. noone goes to jail that way

PinoyInFL
April 22, 2008, 03:35 PM
I am a green card holder and I go through this every time. Yes you have to show proof of residence by showing a utility bill, a bank statement or a credit card statement. It would be easier if your friend has a mailing address which he can use for his drivers' license, bank statments, credit cards, cell phone statements, etc. Perhaps he can make this arrangement with a friend or relative. Once he goes through 3 billing cycles, he can buy the firearm himself.

pete f
April 22, 2008, 03:41 PM
Does he have pay stubs? from a Colorado company to him? or a cell phone bill? it does not have to gas or electric, just something that shows he lives there.

Try a smaller dealer besides SW, there maybe another dealer who looks at the DL and goes good to go.

NavyLCDR
April 22, 2008, 04:13 PM
If that 18 year old you bought that gun for shoots someone, and they ask him where he got the gun, and he says "I bought it from NavyLT. He bought it from the gun store for me," they are going to come talk to you.

Right, that's why it would be someone you would absolutely trust. There are <21 year old guys that work for me, some I would trust, some I wouldn't to gift a handgun to. Another point is this, if you go the "gift" route, one of the reason's ATF won't pursue that in everyday perfectly legal situations is that if the person was legally eligible to receive that firearm from a private person and did nothing illegal with that firearm, then there is no motive for the person giving the gift to provide that firearm as anything other than a gift.

earl_je
April 22, 2008, 11:22 PM
Wow... Some of the responses are making me feel like I'm a felon. Thanks for the welcome guys.
I know handgun ownership is a very touchy, sometimes controversial subject. THAT'S why I was seeking for some advise from the more experienced crowd. Has anyone ever wondered why I even asked about the subject? ...umm, coz I dont want to break the law! (I'm not asking how to break the law, if that even makes sense... duh.)

Anyway, I called him a little bit ago and told him to use his paystubs instead since they all show CO addresses. That should hopefully work. And no, cellphone bills wont work as we were told.

I should very well just stop this issue right here but I'm in a typing mood tonight so here goes:

waterhouse: your post #17 mentioned about a gift excemption, how would you prove in court (assuming a simple gun purchase would get that far) that you purposefully gave the handgun as a gift with no intention to break the law? Your other reply mentioned a signed gift receipt would most likely not work.

Pat-inCO: I hate when people who are new to the forums pretend as if they've been here forever, know everything, and act as if they own the place. Just as what TX1911fan said, maybe YOU should get lost? :)

Sniper X: Sounds like you have had plenty of experience selling guns. If I did sell one of my handguns to another person, do I need a bid of sale of some sort to prove I no longer own the gun? (this question was the basic premise in the original question I first posted)

NavyLT: You seriously went through all that trouble of calling ATF? I salute you man. I sincerely thank you for doing that and hope more members in THR are like you.

treo: Being suspicious is fine, but instantly judging someone of trolling around is completely different. Loosen up a bit, not all people have bad intentions. I had a legitimate question and you just jumped right at me.

dewage83: Unfortunately, I dont have the luxury of spending all day reading and replying to posts here in the forums. I have a fulltime job treating patients all day as a physical therapist and yes, I travel also. That same friend did go with me to the shooting range, that's why he got interested in purchasing a handgun for himself.



Lots of lessons learned here. Makes this hobby even more interesting.

paintballdude902
April 23, 2008, 12:01 AM
my parents have a property management company and have alot of rns renting from them

tell him to get a copy of the bills from his work/land lord

Rayden
April 23, 2008, 01:15 AM
I am going through sort of the same thing as your friend, except that I just received my Green Card and it seems like the ATF/FBI/USCIS restart the clock of my residency at the effective date of my card, which was 4/4/2008. So now the response of my 4473 application was that the earliest I can purchase my next firearm, it will be 7/4/2008 (3 months later) ... never mind that I practically have been living here for more than half my life legally :(

I wonder if the USCIS would reset my start date back to when I last physically left and re-enter the country, which was last millennium (Nov 1999) .....

RDak
April 23, 2008, 06:43 AM
Earl: FWIW, I would NEVER buy a firearm with the intent of really buying it for someone else.

waterhouse
April 23, 2008, 10:14 AM
waterhouse: your post #17 mentioned about a gift excemption, how would you prove in court (assuming a simple gun purchase would get that far) that you purposefully gave the handgun as a gift with no intention to break the law? Your other reply mentioned a signed gift receipt would most likely not work.

It is all about intent. I am not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt. I have spoken with the ATF about this. The gift exception allows people to buy guns strictly as gifts without getting in trouble. A husband can walk into a gun store with the intention of buying a gun for his wife (not for himself) as an anniversary present, or a sister can go in and buy a gun for her younger sister because there is a sketchy guy that has been hanging around.

In both cases, a person bought a gun from a gun store, filled out a 4473, and they knew that they were not going to be the actual owner, which would normally be a crime, but since the gun was strictly as a gift there is no problem with what they did. Their intent, when they signed the form, was to gift the gun, with nothing given in payment, to a 3rd party.

The ATF agents I have spoken to gave me a different story than what LavyLT got . . . that is why I advised him to get that information in writing before staking anything on it. I was told that the gun must be a 100% gift . . . no trickery with $500 oranges or pencils being sold on the side.

Here is one of the examples I was given: If you and Aunt Sally exchange Christmas gifts every year, and one year you go buy her a gun and hand it to her, and she gives you a check for $25 and tells you Merry Christmas, you guys just exchanged gifts. No problem. If Aunt Sally asks you to buy her a gun for Christmas, and you buy her a gun, and she hands you a check for $475 to pay for the gun (with a little something extra for Christmas), then the gun wasn't actually a gift. She paid you for it.

I guess what I am trying to get across is that there is no magical loophole. If you buy it with the intention of giving it as a gift, you are not breaking the law. As NavyLT brought up, if you buy it with the intention of keeping it, and 10 minutes later someone offers you more money for it, you are not breaking the law (at least not any law concerning the 4473; that guy may be an ATF agent trying to get you for making a profit without a dealer's license . . . be careful if this ever happens.) If you go in and buy it "for yourself" and you go home and sell it to your friend, which is what you were planning all along, then you have broken the law.

Any gun in your collection that you bought with the intent of keeping as yours, you are free to sell to your friend. As Treo mentioned, any gun in any private collection in your state may be purchased by your friend. You may buy a gun from a private collection and then have your friend pay you for it. But as soon as you go into a dealer with the intent of getting a gun for your friend, and you fill out and sign the 4473, that gun either needs to be a true gift or you are breaking the law.

NavyLCDR
April 23, 2008, 10:47 AM
earl_je - thanks for the kind words. Apparantly some people on this forum (NOT in this thread!) don't like me posting what I find when I do research, especially if I don't know to go somewhere else in a completed unrelated section of the law to find a paperwork requirement. Anyway - that all aside.

The ATF agent was just being straight up honest with me. When I spoke with him, I used the example of a kid works for me in the military who is 19, wants to get a handgun, but can't from a dealer. It is a technical breaking of the law for me to buy the gun for him from a dealer. It is not a breaking of the intent of the law. The intent is to keep persons not eligible to own firearms from being provided with them. Would the ATF prosecute me for buying a gun for the 19 year old who is elegible to legally purchase it from me? Probably not, but they could, by the letter of the law.

To be technically correct by the law, I would have to gift him the gun and we would both have to be in rock solid agreement the gun was a gift. Believe it or not, there is still some common sense in this country. Prosecuters are not going to break peoples' doors down over one such firearm transaction, UNLESS your buddy goes out and uses the gun in a crime or your buddy is illegal to possess the firearm, or you do it repeatedly. The gift stipulation simply gives the prosecutor one more thing they must disprove if, in a million to one chance, something does come up.

Keep in mind also, this is Washington state here, where no record of private sales are required. In other states where private sales, gifts or transfers require a permit, or be reported, then an ATF agent in that state might have an entirely different opinion.

doc2rn
April 23, 2008, 11:06 AM
They need his Drivers Liscence #1, His work visa/ Green card #2, and a copy of his contract with work stating they will provide residence or agreement with rental property #3. Those are the 3 things he needs, as a legal working immigrant under visa he is elligible to buy his own firearm. Don't buy it for him as that will make bring a world of problems in your direction PDQ. Keep in mind that if he is under 21 and gets caught with a handgun you could be charged also.

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