Roll Crimp on .41 Rem Mag


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spschroeder
April 22, 2008, 04:40 PM
Hi all,

Starting to reload .41 Rem Mag. I've got Alliant's 2400 and some 210 and 220 grain bullets to load.

Question about crimping...do you? My reloading manual says a heavy roll crimp is necessary for use in revolvers, yet the factory Remington ammo that I've been using doesn't appear to be crimped at all. On top of that, the 210gr bullets don't even have the cannelure for a crimp.

So, can I get away with not putting a crimp on these reloads? I figure I'll get more life out of the brass if I don't have to crimp too.

Thanks,
-Steve

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rcmodel
April 22, 2008, 04:53 PM
Berry plated bullets I presume?

Every conventional jacketed .41 Mag revolver bullet made will have a crimp cannelure in it.

Plated bullets don't, because they are not intended for use with full-power loads like you are contemplating.

And yes, revolver loads should be crimped if you are using slow powder like 2400, H110, WW296, etc.
It's necessary for a clean burn, and to prevent bullets pulling from the recoil.

You can't crimp plated bullets very deeply, or the thin jacket coating can separate, stick in the barrel, and blow you up!

rcmodel

Steve C
April 22, 2008, 05:35 PM
.....yet the factory Remington ammo that I've been using doesn't appear to be crimped at all.

Look again and you will see the case mouth crimped is in the cannelure and against the bullet. Evey factory round I've ever looked at has been crimped.

You don't want to mash the case mouth flat but you do want to turn in the mouth so the endge of the case is in the crimp groove.

Below are 3 sample of .41 mag bullets. Starting from the left is a 220gr Speer with the crimp over the end of the straight jacket. In the Middle is a Hornady 210gr JHP with the case mouth rolled into the crimp groove. On the right end is a 215gr LSWC with the case mouth crimped into the provided crimping groove.

http://members.aol.com/SCOLL63101/public/41crimp

ReloaderFred
April 22, 2008, 08:51 PM
Yep, you're going to have to crimp, unless you don't mind the cylinder binding up on you from bullets backing out of the cases under recoil. My duty gun for years was a S&W Model 57, and since it wasn't a caliber offered by the department, I had to load my own practice ammunition for qualifications. You can take it to the bank that bullets will back out if you don't crimp with full power loads. I've fired a couple thousand rounds through mine, and if they're not crimped, you'll be out of commission.

Hope this helps.

Fred

ForneyRider
April 22, 2008, 09:13 PM
I bought my first press: Lee Pro 1000 with .41 Magnum setup.
It is a 3-die setup.
Not sure if the bullet seating die does anything but taper the case back to straight wall. The 2nd die is the powder through expander.

I've had no bullet setback with even my max loads in my Ruger Blackhawk.

I've read that H110 and W296 is the same. I use H110, but am looking for some light plinker loads. Maybe W231 or Power Pistol.

Lil'Gun and 2400 are mentioned often as good powders for magnum pistols.

I use Nosler 210gr JHP and Remington 210gr JSP. Both have a cannelure.

Revolver ammunition was a great place for me to start loading.

I like the factory Remington 210gr ammo, very stout. But at $40/50, it was time to start reloading. The Winchester Silver Tip 175gr was very consistent in my Chrony.

Mr. Chitlin
April 22, 2008, 10:26 PM
I like the factory Remington 210gr ammo, very stout. But at $40/50, it was time to start reloading.

I'd say so. Sunday I ordered 500 Rem 210 grain JHPs' from Midway for a little over $70 + shipping. I'll end up with 500 rounds for less than $100.

mrawesome22-250
April 22, 2008, 10:29 PM
Here is my 454Casull rounds at 1900fps TAPER crimped. They shoot fantastic and the bullets stay put.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh192/frozenpickle25/DSC00147.jpg

Jayhawker
April 23, 2008, 11:24 AM
I've tried plated bullets of various brands in .44 Mag, .41 Mag, .357 Mag and .45 ACP in a S&W 625. For the most part, with any load at all, I had the bullets slipping out even with a very light roll crimp. The only one that I had any luck with was with West Coast bullets (now Xtreme Bullets) 200 SWC in the 625 and for that I used a modified die with a very slight roll crimp. Nonetheless, I still couldn't get away with stout loads and had to restrict myself to bullseye loads like 3.5 to 3.8 of Bullseye powder. In that case they fired VERY accurately with no slippage.

spschroeder
April 23, 2008, 03:44 PM
Thanks for all the replies...

I took another look at the factory Remington load I had. It has a very slight crimp, hence why I didn't see it to start with. Comparing the case diameter to the crimped section, the crimp only necks down by 0.001" in diameter.

The two types of bullets I have are the same as the left two rounds in Steve C's picture. (Sierra 220gr SP and 210gr JHP). I now see how the crimp works on the 220gr SP. Thanks for the picture...very helpful.

mrawesome22-250 - that's a pretty heavy looking roll crimp...much heavier than the factory ammo I'm looking at. Should I do something in between?

Thanks again, all,
-Steve

Walkalong
April 23, 2008, 06:01 PM
mrawesome22-250 - that's a pretty heavy looking roll crimp...much heavier than the factory ammo I'm looking at. Should I do something in between?Yes.

He called it a TAPER crimp, but I've never seen a taper crimp like that. I use a heavy taper crimp on a couple of loads and it looks like a heavy roll crimp to me.

rcmodel
April 23, 2008, 06:42 PM
A VERY HEAVY roll crimp to me!

I doubt anyone even makes 454 Casull dies that will do a taper crimp.

Whatever it is, I've never seen anything like it!

Wonder what the brass life is like? One reload?

rcmodel

Walkalong
April 23, 2008, 08:06 PM
The only other time I have seen it is when I goofed with a roll crimp die. :eek:

And yep, case life has got to be terrible.

mrawesome22-250
April 23, 2008, 11:15 PM
A VERY HEAVY roll crimp to me!
Nope. It is a taper crimp from the taper crimp die in the Hornady 4 die set I bought. That photo has some optical illusions going on in it. Here is a better photo. If you look at the very right, you can see the actual profile.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh192/frozenpickle25/DSC00158.jpg?t=1209003070

I was trying to duplicate something like this.
http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/highresimage?saleitemid=923495

mrawesome22-250
April 23, 2008, 11:39 PM
I doubt anyone even makes 454 Casull dies that will do a taper crimp.
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh192/frozenpickle25/DSC00159.jpg?t=1209004680
http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh192/frozenpickle25/DSC00166.jpg?t=1209004749

rcmodel
April 24, 2008, 11:36 AM
That's a Roll Crimp, and a Roll Crimp Die in my reloading book.

Definition for "taper crimp": A taper crimp has the mouth of the case pressed into the bullet body without bending the case mouth. Most commonly used on cartridges intended for use in auto-loading firearms.

Definition for "roll crimp": A roll crimp is the bending or rolling the mouth of a case into the crimp groove or cannelure of the bullet.

rcmodel

mrawesome22-250
April 24, 2008, 09:52 PM
So they accidentally stamped TC on the die when it should have been stamped RC?

And how come the directions say the roll crimp is in the seater die?

Steve C
April 24, 2008, 10:31 PM
So they accidentally stamped TC on the die when it should have been stamped RC?
Hornady does make a Taper crimp die for the 500 S&W (https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=8ad1ad20b159d1c599beb0f9b7183930&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=9294c2f29ef09f7f75ee2bd9c666e617) as a special purchase, but the crimps show in your picture are roll crimps where the case mouth is rolled by the die crimping portion turning the mouth inward. Any standard die set for cartridges normally shot in revolvers will have a roll crimp die. A taper crimp wouldn't have the effect of pushing the case mouth into the cannelure and is generally used exclusively for semi auto rounds and bullets without a crimping groove or cannelure.

mrawesome22-250
April 24, 2008, 11:47 PM
but the crimps show in your picture are roll crimps

If they are roll crimps, why does Hornady call it a taper crimp?

EDIT: Look at the last picture Steve C. The die says 454Casull TC. I'm not sure if you noticed that.

Pumpkinheaver
April 25, 2008, 12:16 AM
I crimp the .41 mag with a Lee carbide crimp die and have never had a bullet slip.

spschroeder
April 27, 2008, 04:43 AM
Hey all - really appreciate the help. I did not intend for this to be an argument on roll vs. taper crimp.

mrawesome22-250, thanks for sharing photos of your handloads. It's hard to argue with what Hornady, the manufacturer of the die, labels the crimp style as.

I guess the point is, if it's working for you, why change?

-Steve

lgbloader
April 27, 2008, 05:00 AM
One of the reasons I really like this site is that usually, there is no wives here to nag their men in front of the rest of the crew. Unfortunately, some wives have rubbed off on their men!

Steady, Men. Respect.

Walkalong
April 27, 2008, 09:40 AM
Unfortunately, some wives have rubbed off on their men! I did not see it that way in this thread, just grown men disagreeing. :)

...and that's a roll crimp... :D

Ben Shepherd
April 28, 2008, 09:37 AM
Hornady may call it a "taper crimp", but like others here, it sure as hell looks like a roll crimp to me. It may be that hornady is starting to step on reddings toes.......

That could be a rip-off of the redding "proile crimp" series of dies. Don't know without seeing it in person though.

As for the original question though:

If you roll crimp those plated bullets heavily enough for good performance with slow powders and max loads- The crimp will strip the plating, leaving the undersized soft lead slug exposed. This will lead/foul the bore extensively. And the undersized condition will cause poor engagement of the riflings, leading to horrible accuracy.

If you don't crimp fairly heavy- You'll get dirty, incomplete powder burn, leading to erratic load performance.

spschroeder
April 30, 2008, 10:46 PM
Ben -

So what does that leave me with for choices? Seems like I'll either need to get very lucky with the crimp amount or just deal with a dirty barrel or smokey powder burn.

-Steve

CZ57
April 30, 2008, 11:11 PM
CZ57 back from the dead to give you the best response Monopoly money will buy: get a REDDING profile crimp die! Roll and taper crimp combined. Roll crimp to ensure bullet "pull". That means the roll crimp will hold the bullet slightly longer to ensure better powder burn. The taper crimp will ensure that there is true concentricity in the engagement of bullet to case. Afterall, is there any other magnum than the .41?;)

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