[miatchguy]

I thought this would be the best place to ask this. I know how semi-auto and full-auto guns work, but something I don't get is how select fire works. Is the watchamacallit that sticks out at the bottom of the disconnector raised up? What?

[Hkmp5sd]

"Select Fire" means the weapon will fire either semiautomatic or fully automatic, ie select fire. In semi- it lets the disconnector catch the hammer and you must release the trigger for it to be released. In full auto, the disconnector doesn't catch the hammer, so it keeps shooting as long as the trigger is held.

[miatchguy]

Yes, I know all that, the question I have is how does it make it catch?

[Hkmp5sd]

Oh, sorry. On the M16, in semi-automatic, the disconnector catches the hammer. When the trigger is released, the disconnect releases the hammer and the trigger sear holds the hammer back until the trigger is pulled again.

In full auto, there is a cam on the selector switch that prevents the disconnector from catching the hammer. The auto sear holds the hammer back until the bolt carrier hits the auto sear as it reaches battery. That releases the hammer, which makes it go bang and when the bolt comes back, the auto sear again holds it until the bolt goes back forward. When you let go of the trigger, the auto sear still releases the hammer, but the trigger sear engages it and holds it back.

[miatchguy]

:confused: Sorry, I don't understand; do you know of anywhere where I can find some diagram or CGI animation of it? I'm a visual person :D

[Hkmp5sd]

Not off hand, but maybe this describes it better.
THE OPERATING CYCLE (AUTOMATIC)

All models are fired from the closed bolt position. The follow ing description is of the weapon in the ready made with a cartridge in the chamber.

(1) Pulling the trigger rotates the sear and releases the hammer.
(2) The hammer strikes the firing pin and fires the cartridge.
(3) Gas pressure from the cartridge forces the operating rod and carrier rearward.
(4) The cam pin, following the cam in the carrier, rotates and unlocks the bolt.
(5) The case is extracted and the spring ejector ejects the spent cartridge through the opening in the ejection port.
(6) The action of the carrier moving rearward rotates the hammer downward to engage the automatic sear.'
(7) The forward travel of the operating mechanism engages the next cartridge in the magazine and chambers it.
(8) After locking and during the cam dwell, the sear release lever is moved forward by the carrier and releases the automatic sear, which in turn releases the hammer again.
(9) When the trigger is released, the disconnector rotates back to its original position and engages the hammer, stopping all action.
(10) In the Semi-automatic mode and on Semi-automatic model weapons the trigger must be pulled for each round that is fired.
The Bushmaster Weapons System (http://www.biggerhammer.net/armpistol/manual/)

[miatchguy]

lol, thanks but i still don't get it, i'll just try 2 find some sort of diagram on the internet.:D

[Badger Arms]

Click here to load the AlternaTIFF viewer plug-in so you can see the patent. (http://www.uspto.gov/patft/help/images.htm)

Click here for the Stoner Patent (http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=03045555&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526d%3DPALL%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%2Fnetahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526s1%3D3,045,555.WKU.%2526OS%3DPN%2F3,045,555%2526RS%3DPN%2F3,045,555&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=F4A7DA02E962)

[miatchguy]

What's this about? All it says on all the pages is search timelimit has expired.

[miatchguy]

Nevermind, sorry, I clicked on full text.lol

[Badger Arms]

I didn't realize that searches expire. Yes, just click on Full Text and then click on Images to see the patent. If you really dig into the pictures and zoom in on the details, you can see how the selector merely blocks the disconnector and prevents it from catching the hammer each time thus allowing the full-auto sear to engage the hammer and trip each time the bolt flies home. The selector placed in semi-auto disengages the auto-sear and allows the disconnector to do its job. Just read through the patent.

[bountyhunter]

FWIW: there's a nice warm cell in Leavenworth for people who modify existing AR-16's per the diagram to make them "select fire" guns.

[Quartus]

bountyhunter, I am just shocked - SHOCKED! - to see you suspect a loyal THR member of considering such a thing! :D


But isn't Leavenworth an Army prison?


BTW, miatchguy, if you are ready to go the civil disobedience route, more power to you. If not, uh, don't. Those BATF boys are reeeely serious about them kind of modifications.

'Course, there's no law agin curiosity.

[Hkmp5sd]

miatchguy hasn't said anything about illegally modifying a firearm. He just asked how select fire mechanisms function.

[miatchguy]

Yeah, I jet come to this site to learn about this stuff, honestly, I don't even own a gun, I haven't even fired one! I just like to know how these things work.:D

[SDC]

It depends on the design of the specific firearm you're asking about, but the principle is usually the same between general types; for open-bolt submachineguns, all the trigger does is release the bolt to fly forward. When the firing-pin fires the cartridge, the recoil forces the bolt back to extract and eject the empty case, and if the trigger is still held back, the bolt just keeps "bouncing" against the recoil impulse, like a pogo stick. If the mechanism is set on semi-auto, during its travel, the bolt knocks part of the trigger mechanism off of a step to allow the sear to spring back up and re-engage the bolt when it comes back far enough during recoil. If you're talkiing about something like the M16 or AK-47 series, there are actually two separate sears, one for semi-auto fire, one for full-auto fire (usually, the full-auto sear engages a sear-step at the far end of the hammer from its pivot pin. For example, when the M16 is set on full-auto (imagine an M16A1, without the 3-round burst for a minute), the semi-auto sear holds the hammer on "cocked" at the front of the hammer until you fire it. When you fire it (and hold the trigger back), the hammer is caught and held by the full-auto sear at the rear of the hammer, which is released automatically by the bottom rear of the bolt carrier when the bolt goes back into battery with a new cartridge from the magazine. (Something has to hold the hammer cocked while the bolt is closing, otherwise you'd get a "click" instead of a "bang", when the hammer falls way too early, or you'd get a "BOOM" from an unlocked ignition, when the hammer falls slightly too early.) It's simpler than it sounds, but I hope this gives you an idea of what's going on.

[Jim K]

I will give this a shot. One point to remember. On any powerful cartridge, the bolt has to be closed and locked before the round is fired, and firing has to be positive. (Just a hammer following the bolt down won't work, at least not reliably, so "filing the sear" won't create reliable full auto fire no matter what some writers say.)

This describes the action of the M16 (old type without burst fire)

OK. With the bolt closed and locked, and the selector set to full auto, the trigger is pulled. The hammer falls, the rifle fires, the gas comes back through the tube and hits the bolt carrier. This moves the carrier back, which rotates the bolt to unlock it. The empty case is ejected, and the carrier continues backward. The carrier cocks the hammer down past the normal (semi-auto) sear, but with the selector set to full, that sear is held out of the way and it does not engage the hammer.

Meantime, the carrier reaches its stop, and its spring reasserts itself and moves the carrier forward, stripping a round from the magazine and forcing it into the chamber. The hammer tries to follow the carrier, but is caught by the auto sear, and held as the carrier goes forward. When the bolt is fully turned and locked, the carrier still has a short distance to move, and it is during this movement that the rear of the carrier pulls forward on the top of the auto sear, rotating it out of engagement with the hammer and allowing the hammer to fall and fire the newly chambered round. This continues until the trigger is released or the magazine is empty.

In semi-auto, the selector cam allows the semi-auto sear to catch the hammer every time, so a pull of the trigger is required to fire the rifle. The auto sear is always moved by the carrier going forward, but in semi-auto fire, it is not holding the hammer and is out of the way when the hammer falls.

Note that this describes the old semi/full rifle, not the M16A2 with the burst control. That system is just too darn complicated to describe without
pictures.

Jim

[Hkmp5sd]

There is an easy way to learn how a machinegun works. Buy one! Take it apart, put it together and shoot it. Better than any description, diagram or animation. More fun too! :)

[miatchguy]

I'd love to, but I don't have the money. And I'm only 15:D , like I said, I just come here to learn, so I'm not too embarressed to ask later.lol

[Quartus]

I just like to know how these things work.


Uh-oh. :uhoh:


THAT can get you in a lot of trouble in life! Believe me, I know! :D

But it's fun.

[miatchguy]

You're tellin' me! You can make people think you're smart without actually having to be :D lol

[Gun Plumber]

THERE IS a law on the books of discussing HOW TO MODIFY weapons that were ONLY designed to shoot semi. Best lock this one off and delete it to keep everyone from getting a call from ATF.

[Badger Arms]

No there isn't. This discussion was about how a military fully-automatic weapon works. The 1st amendment protects free speech. We were speaking with a 15 year old explaining how something works. Which law are you referring to that limits this type of speech? This person could join the Marine Corps in a little over a year. Where in here did it suggest that anybody wanted to modify a semi-auto weapon to shoot fully-automatic?

[Gun Plumber]

I'm sorry, but you WERE DISCUSSING CYCLE OF OPERATIONS of a semi-auto to select fire in this thread. And while you might win a Supreme Court case re:1st Amendment, the ATF DOES TAKE an extremely dim view of discussing such things over the net.

Don't believe me, call them. You will get an earful. And maybe your eyes opened.

But hey, ignorance IS knowledge, right? I have worked for several class 3 or class 10 people and I PROMISE YOU NONE OF THEM would join this discussion on a bet.

And the ONLY PROOF you have that you are ACTUALLY talking to a 15 year old is his say so. Can we say STING OPERATION? Duh, happens all the time over the net.

[Badger Arms]

you WERE DISCUSSING CYCLE OF OPERATIONS of a semi-auto to select fire in this thread.No, we weren't. You might be ignorant of the workings of a selct-fire weapon so let me inform you just in case. A select-fire weapon is one which can, through some means, fire either semi-automatically or fully-automatic. The cycle of operations on an M-16, the weapon referred to in the patent I cited, is to move the selector from semi to full. That's not a conversion, it changes from semi-auto to full-auto modes in a selective-fire weapon such as the M-16.

I live in a state where we can own a fully-automatic weapon and many MIGHT want to know how they work and discuss them. Said discussioin does not violate any law.

What does it matter WHO I am replying to? You can find the information being discussed here on the government web site I referenced above. It's patented and available free to the public. I don't care if the poster of this question is a 3-year-old, this is public knowledge, public information, and academic at best.

Again, I challenge you to quote from the previous posts where anybody suggested that any conversion of a semi-automatic-only firearm was going to take place, was contemplated, or otherwise. Every substantive reply to this thread has described how a legal selective-fire gun works.

Don't believe me, call them. You will get an earful. And maybe your eyes opened.Well, I have called them. In fact, I called them most recently about NFA definitions for rifled shotguns. I found them to be very helpful and informative, and professional. They did not hunt me down, stomp my cat to death, and shoot my wife in the head. In fact, they did not know the answer to my question immediately so they researched it and called me back. I don't feel the need to call them this time because I know there is no law that says you cannot talk about guns. In fact, it's an absurd statement. Please quote the law you are referring to. I'd love to read it.

[Hkmp5sd]

They did not hunt me down, stomp my cat to death

That's always been one of my great fears regarding ATF. :D Just can't trust them guys. I would try to hide, but they have my name, address, fingerprints and photo from a bunch of Form 4s.

[Badger Arms]

I hear you. Once you have an FFL, they pretty much already own you. The problem is that EVERY dealing I've had with the BATF over the years has been professional and positive. Of course, I follow the law and maybe that has something to do with it?

[Gun Plumber]

Yeah, right.

"THE OPERATING CYCLE (AUTOMATIC)

All models are fired from the closed bolt position. The following description is of the weapon in the ready made with a cartridge in the chamber.

(1) Pulling the trigger rotates the sear and releases the hammer.
(2) The hammer strikes the firing pin and fires the cartridge.
(3) Gas pressure from the cartridge forces the operating rod and carrier rearward.
(4) The cam pin, following the cam in the carrier, rotates and unlocks the bolt.
(5) The case is extracted and the spring ejector ejects the spent cartridge through the opening in the ejection port.
(6) The action of the carrier moving rearward rotates the hammer downward to engage the automatic sear.'
(7) The forward travel of the operating mechanism engages the next cartridge in the magazine and chambers it.
(8) After locking and during the cam dwell, the sear release lever is moved forward by the carrier and releases the automatic sear, which in turn releases the hammer again.
(9) When the trigger is released, the disconnector rotates back to its original position and engages the hammer, stopping all action.
(10) In the Semi-automatic mode and on Semi-automatic model weapons the trigger must be pulled for each round that is fired. "

That's cycle of operations, bub. And while I DON'T have my Class 3 weapons folder handy, call ANY Class 3 dealer or Class 10 manufacturer if you don't feel it necessary to contact the ATF. I have had MANY conversations with ATF, over the phone AND IN PERSON. While I can't qoute chapter and verse, believe me, IT IS A FELONY to pass information along as to how to modify ANY semi-auto weapon to fire full auto. OR discuss how it is POSSIBLE to modify a semi-auto, which was done when listing the cycle of operations of a full auto. Then all your 15-year-old has to do is compare that against the semi-auto cycle ops and VIOLA, he just figured out how to convert his legal AR-15 to an M-16 ILLEGALLY. And it AIN'T whether YOU think it is pertinent or not. IT'S what the ATF and the judge they drag you in front of thinks that counts. If you don't believe me, there are TONS of examples on the old TFL board where several members were harassed, haruanged and arrested for just this type silliness.

So, while you live in the great outdoors, all it would take is for ONE ATF AGENT surfing the web and trying to make a name for himself (and wanting to get back to lower 48) by impressing his superiors and you would spend a lot of time and money explaining how 'You have a 1st Amendment right' to discuss this stuff. Their answer will ALWAYS BE, "Tell it to the judge", JUST AFTER they slap the cuffs on.

And as a gunsmith with a gunsmithing degree, they have my name, address and phone number. I'm on EVERYBODIES LIST. ATF, FBI, DOD (top secret clearance) and a host of others. I even turned down a job as armorer for 10th special forces down in Colorado Springs (money was way too low). Glad I did that, cause two of my buddies who accepted jobs for other spec op groups are in IRAQ right now as CONTRACTORS to spec op guys. SO, yeah, I DO KNOW what I'm talking about. You name the weapon, semi- or full- and I've probably played with it, disassembled or reassembled it, up to at least the MA Duece, which I clean for a guy down in the Springs every once and a while. My presonal favorite to play with is the M-60. You might have seen it in the Rambo movies. So get a grip.

[Badger Arms]

you WERE DISCUSSING CYCLE OF OPERATIONS of a semi-auto to select fire in this thread.No, we weren't.Sir, if you continue to try to reinforce your arguments by misrepresenting what I have said, you are going to gun in circles. I'm confused, frankly, by what your point is. You quote another poster who discussed how a "Full-auto" weapon works. He did this very well. What are you meaning to say when you speak of 'cycle of operations' and how does this made what we've said a crime? It's not rocket science to figure out how a full-auto weapon works and they even showed us very descriptive cutaways in Basic Training detailing every step of the full-automatic 'cycle of operations.'

In fact, if that's illegal (LISTEN UP BATF), why don't I just get all of the Armalite Corporation fired and help the initial poster in his quest for information. Here's a highly detailed description of how the M-16 rifle works courtesy of the US Government streaming into your eyeballs care of the Armalite website.

M-16 Cycle of Operations (low bandwidth) (http://66.155.8.108/streaming/m16OperationAndFuncitoning/m16operation56kbps.asf)
M-16 Cycle of Operations (high bandwidth) (http://66.155.8.108/streaming/m16OperationAndFuncitoning/m16operation250kbps.asf)

[Gun Plumber]

My point is that the amount of knowledge about this subject fills volumes. You need to go find them and bone up on it as it's neither my job nor my wish to educate someone who knows so much more than I. 'Net lawyers such as yourself WHO DON'T WORK in this industry and are constantly misleading people into areas of trouble is sad.

As you know all the answers, perhaps that ATF will hire you to straighten out their misguided ways. That would be great for all of us.

For example, one phone call from the ATF told my boss that he would have to fill out a class 3 form again. When he asked why, the lady on the other end explained that he had used two different calibers in describing the M-16 one of his clients was trying to purchase.

The two calibers he used? .223 & 5.56

ON THE SAME FORM - Oh my god, how could he have made such a silly mistake?!?!?! It cost the client SIX WEEKS to get the form sent back, filled out PROPERLY (ATF's words, not mine) and then they FINALLY GRANTED THE SALE.

So, like I said before. Get a grip.

[Hkmp5sd]

Let's see. I currently own a Colt M16A1. I also own the original Colt manual (CM101) for that firearm. The manual provides extensive diagrams and descriptions on how the rifle functions in the Safe, Semi and Auto positions.

You state that if I talk about how that mechanism functions over the internet, I am violating some federal law? I find that amazing since I have read the US statutes on firearms numerous times and have never seen that provision.

THERE IS a law on the books of discussing HOW TO MODIFY weapons that were ONLY designed to shoot semi.

As to validity of this statement, let me point your attention to some readily available, and completely legal books being sold.

Select Fire Uzi Modification Manual - $20.00
http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/media/C-024_SELECT_FIRE_.jpg

Full-Auto : AR-15 Modificaton Manual - $12.00
http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/media/C-127_FULL_AUTO_VO.jpg

Selectfire 10/22 - $20.00
http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/media/C-414_SELECT_FIRE.jpg

Select Fire AK-47 Full Auto Conversion for the AK-47 - $12.00
http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/media/C-685_FullAutoAK47.jpg

'Net lawyers such as yourself WHO DON'T WORK in this industry and are constantly misleading people into areas of trouble is sad.

And here I thought that Badger DID work in that industry.

[Hkmp5sd]

I'm on EVERYBODIES LIST. ATF, FBI, DOD (top secret clearance) and a host of others. I even turned down a job as armorer for 10th special forces down in Colorado Springs (money was way too low).

BTW, I forgot to ask, why does a gunsmith require a TS clearance? And it's been a while since I was in the military, but they used to have their own armorers.

[Quartus]

Gun Plumber, cite us the law or regulation, or get out of Dodge.


:rolleyes:

[Badger Arms]

Enough said.

[Art Eatman]

Ahright! Enough!

Folks are saying what they think they know about the law in the full belief they are correct. The fact that somebody might be mistaken is beside the point.

Agree to disagree about the meaning of the law or I'll lock the thread down just because it's headed toward a flame fest.

Art

[Quartus]

I even turned down a job as armorer for 10th special forces down in Colorado Springs

When did the 10th move to CS?

[Gun Plumber]

10th moved to CS some time back (several years) - I even got to 'play' with them about two - three years ago. They were 'taking over' Fairplay. I got to haul their gear while they 'attacked' the local sheriff's office and the local PD office. I got 'paid' in some 'money' they printed up. Still have it somewhere. It's in my kit of memorabilia.

Nothing scarier than seeing six (might have been eight) guys come skiing down out of the mtns with HUGE packs on their backs in the early dawn. THESE GUYS are serious as a heart attack.

After it was all over, they released local constabulary, then we all went over to the fire department, which they were using as a base camp. We shot the bull for about an hour and then they went their way, I went mine.

For some reason that year, they used Colorado, and did NOT go to Montana for training purposes. They told me the plane they jumped out of hardly took off and got up to altitude and then they jumped.

Now they are probably in IRAQ. Most of the spec ops forces are.

And now for:

"BTW, I forgot to ask, why does a gunsmith require a TS clearance? And it's been a while since I was in the military, but they used to have their own armorers."

Well, prior to becoming a gunsmith, I was Data Processing manager for a company in CA called Triple 'A' shipyards. 95% of their business was working on US Navy ships. Do you recall when USS Enterprise ran across a sandbar south of San Deigo (late 85/86)? They had to come to us in Bay area for to get a 90 foot long and 8 foot wide gash repaired. That is one HUGE SHIP. And I had to shut down all computers at company in fear that one of thirty plus radar would 'fry' circuits.

AND YES, the military USED TO DO EVERYTHING themselves. NOW, as a cost saving measure RAYTHEON has over a BILLION DOLLAR contract to do everything from armorers (lost that portion of the contract recently) to doing the laundry.

Hope that clears confusion up. And why is that NO ONE wants to talk to ATF LIKE I HAVE to clear up the fact on whether or not that you CAN discuss this, JUST LIKE YOU CAN SPEED. I guess it's only breaking the law when you get caught?

[Hkmp5sd]

Gun Plumber,

How about from this angle? ATF has ruled a person can possess ALL of the select fire components for an M16 and as long as that person does not possess an AR-15 at the same time, it is perfectly legal. It only becomes an unregistered machinegun if the person has the full auto parts AND an AR-15 that they can be installed into.

Given that ATF allows this, why would they care about anything anyone talks about? You can go to Barnes & Noble and purchase numerous books about Colt, H&K and many other firearm manufacturers that describe in minute detail the design and operation of their select fire weapons.

[Gun Plumber]

And we ALL KNOW that the ATF has NEVER BENT ANY RULES, RIGHT? They never burned anyone to the ground, including kids, RIGHT? Or held people without allowing them their due process to law, RIGHT? And they never shot anyone's dog, wife or kids, RIGHT?

Look, like the M says, lets just agree to disagree, RIGHT?

[Hkmp5sd]

lets just agree to disagree, RIGHT?

Yep, sounds good. Never thought I'd find someone more hard headed than me. :)

[1911Tuner]

As a former part-time employee of a Class 3 dealer, here is the long
and the short of it.

There was a time when possession of all 6 parts needed to convert
an AR-15 were legal, so long as the rifle wasn't stored on the same
property. I'm talking of the little trick called the "Drop-In Auto Sear,
and the other 5 GI M-16 parts,
not the modification to the receiver required to allow use of the M-16
auto sear. If a receiver was so modified, the bare receiver was, and
is...a violation that would net you 5 to 10 at Club Fed.

That all changed in November 1981. Drop-in Auto Sears manufactured after that date were illegal to own, manufacture, or possess if you
also owned the rifle. No other parts were required to charge you with
illegal possession of a "machinegun". That changed a little later, too.
No ownership of an AR-15 was needed to charge you with a federal
firearms violation if you had a drop-in sear manufactured after November
1, 1981, unless you paid the 200 dollar transfer fee for legal ownership
of a Class 3 weapon, and the drop-in sear must be serialized.

You could also have 5 of the parts needed for a selective-fire conversion
in the rifle, so long as the drop-in auto sear was not present. That
has changed too. Now ANY M-16 part in an AR-15 rifle is trouble.

Colt, and other manufacturers complied with ATF's request to modify
the rifles to prevent easy conversion by using pins for the related
parts that were larger than the M-16, and a solid block was added to the
area of the rifle where the drop-in sear was dropped in, so that a
quick inspection of the inside would reveal an altered receiver, and yep...You guessed it. Up against the wall!

Moreover...instructing somebody on the "How To" steps can, and
has been called conspiracy to alter or manufacture a Class 3 weapon,
and if anyone thinks that Big Brother isn't monitoring these forums
with a computer that is programmed to alert on certain key words
or phrases, think again.

Bottom line is that they are fun to play with, but no toy is worth
10,000 dollars and a decade of your life sharing a small cell with
a 6 foot, 5 inch guy named "Mongo", who benches 350 and blows
you kisses in the shower.

Cheers!
Tuner

[Gun Plumber]

I COULD have dug that out, but TUNER beat me to it.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU.

ATF agents are GENERALLY NICE GUYS, but have absolutely NO SENSE OF HUMOR about this sort of stuff. I know, cause I've had LONG DISCUSSIONS about it with them.

Hey, it's THEIR JOB! And like you and I, they take it VERY SERIOUSLY. Just like the LAST PERSON I WANT TO MEET is a customers widow's attorney, the last guy any of US wants to meet is an ATF guy with an attitude. If you know what I mean.

And what happened to the 15-year-old kid? He sure went silent all of a sudden, eh?

[Quartus]

Dug what out? Some information about parts that we all knew? An unsupported assertion that "instructing somebody on the "How To" steps can, and has been called conspiracy to alter or manufacture a Class 3 weapon"?


THAT is your idea of vindication?



:rolleyes:

[Hkmp5sd]

Moreover...instructing somebody on the "How To" steps can, and has been called conspiracy to alter or manufacture a Class 3 weapon
But as Badger stated numerous times, at no point in this thread has that been done. The thread began with a question on how a select fire weapon can go from shooting semiautomatic to fully automatic. Big difference in describing how a machinegun functions and how to convert a semiautomatic firearm to fire full auto.

Besides, there is no need to ask anyone "how too" on an illegal conversion. You can buy the manuals and the "full auto parts kits" and do it yourself. On many semiautomatic firearms, you don't even need a parts kit. The manuals show how to modify the existing parts to make it full auto.

Not to mention, on respectible boards like THR, no one advises persons to commit any illegal activity. A person asking how to convert their AR-15 to full auto would not get any answers.

I'm well aware of ATF's position on AR-15s and M16 parts as I own both firearms and ATF, in their infinite wisdom, will not allow me to have spare parts for my M16 in my possession alongside the AR. I suppose they never asked themselves why anyone would want to convert an AR to full auto if that person already had a full auto M16.

[1911Tuner]

Quartus wrote:
Dug what out? Some information about parts that we all knew?

Well...Sorry to have bothered, Quartus. I thought I'd get that on
the board before some unsuspecting and unknowing Newbie jumped in and
started givin' details. Had that happen once when I was workin' at
the shop. When we clued him that it wasn't wise, he went pale and
split.





An unsupported assertion that "instructing somebody on the "How To" steps can, and has been called conspiracy to alter or manufacture a Class 3 weapon"?

Just passin' along what I've been told by the folks that enforce the laws.

Be of good cheer and mindful of your back.:cool:

Tuner

[Quartus]

Just passin' along what I've been told by the folks that enforce the laws.


Ah. And did you ask them to back it up? I've not seen much reason to trust the word of someone who would work for BATF. Integrity is NOT their middle name.
Even where integrity is not in question, I've known a lot of LEOs to have completly bogus ideas of what the law is. They don't seem to read it enough. Some think they learned it all in the Academy.



I'm stilll looking for something substantial.

[1911Tuner]

Naw, Quartus, I didn't ask'em to provide case histories, but the
ATF is kinda like the Internal Revenue...I'd like to avoid gettin'
tangled up with'em if at all possible, cause they never seem to
completely let go.

I'm also aware that a charge doesn't always result in a conviction,
but not too many folks have 12 or 15 thousand to throw at a
defense lawyer. Financial ruin isn't my idea of a good thing.
Even if the charge doesn't stick, and never goes to court, I
don't want to be on a "Watch List" in any federal agency.

When I was doing my gunsmithing gig, I got to know several
ATF agents over the course of 15 years. Most of'em are nice
guys that will talk straight up and are willing to give you a
break, even if you're in violation...depending on what their
"take" is on your intent. I've also known a few who would
bust their own brother on a suspicion.

Bottom line is that it would be better to stay well clear of the
shady gray area that lies between "This is Verboten and This is Not."

Be of good cheer and mindful of your back...

Tuner

[Gun Plumber]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/index.htm

Start there. Look at section 3 titled 'AR-15 type rifles' - it SPECIFICALLY states that ANY M-16 part MUST NOT BE USED in assembly of AR-15 semiauto rifles. I'm paraphrasing because you are not allowed to copy their info WITHOUT ATF PERMISSION. And that ain't worth the time and effort for this little brew-ha-ha.

And I like the way they state that the possesion of any of these parts COULD BE a violation of the NFA. MEANING, that the ATF, not the holder of the parts decides.

This goes directly to "you can drag a dead horse to water, but you can't pound any sense into him".

[Quartus]

No kidding. You can't use full auto parts in a gun that is licensed as a semi auto. That's not exactly news.


But talking about how to convert them breaks no law. Instructing others on how to convert them breaks no law.

Suggesting that someone actually DO such a conversion would break some laws.


Which is why I suggested (earlier in the thread) that if the original poster were considering DOING it, he should not.


(Of course, the original question wasn't even about CONVERTING anything. It was just a question about how a full auto works.)

[1911Tuner]

Well, okay then, but if you're convinced that it's no biggie you can put your theory to the test. Go ahead and post some detailed instructions, and maybe toss in a hint about a fragmentation device..just to get their attention. I'm willin' to bet dollars to dough nut holes that come Monday A.M. you'll be the topic of conversation SOMEwhere, with at least a 50/50 chance of being the subject of an investigation. Sound like fun?

Interesting how the original poster disappeared kinda sudden-like
methinks...Eh? What?

Cheers!

[AZ Jeff]

You guys are getting all wrapped around the axle over some key semantics here. There are TWO DIFFERENT ACTS being discussed here:

ACT #1-- describing how an select-fire weapon functions in it's two alternative modes of operation

ACT #2-- describing how to MODIFY an semi-auto weapon so it will function as a selective fire weapon

ACT #1 is very generalized in it's nature, and this information is general public knowledge from LOTS of sources, not the least of which was the U.S. Army produced training movie cited in this thread, along with the excellent historical book "The Black Rifle", by Ezell and Stevens.

ACT #2 involves detailing EXACLTY what parts need to be replaced, exactly what parts need to be modified, the physical details and dimensions of how they need to be modified, and how they need to be assembled.

I think the BATFE is concerned about ACT #2 events, and could care less about ACT #1.

[Badger Arms]

How to convert the AR-15 to M-16.

First, submit the proper forms to the BATF to be licensed as a manufacturer of NFA firearms. Once you are licensed and upon approval from the BATF, remove the following parts from the AR-15 rifle: Bolt carrier, trigger, hammer, selector, and disconnect. Mill out the 'wall' on the inside of the lower receiver which prevents installation of an auto-sear. Drill a small hole above the selector hole to accept the auto-sear pin. You can use the blueprints found at www.biggerhammer.net in order to locate the hole or purchase any of several legal fixtures available. Install the following parts (available from Bushmaster, DPMS, Armalite, Olympic arms, etc. upon presentation of your tax stamp): Trigger, Hammer, Disconnect, Auto-Sear w/pin and spring, Selector, and bolt carrier. Your gun is now a legal post-dealer-sample M-16 converted legally from an AR-15. You can transfer it to licensed Class III dealers under certain restrictions. You must transfer, sell or surrender the firearm upon expiration of your license or at which time the provision stating it must be for sale to a government agency or for export no longer applies.

Oh, and Fragmentation grenades can be had in much the same manner. They fall under the legal definition of a destructive device. Licenses for these items are also available through contacting the BATF and filling out and submitting the proper forms.

Of course, there are many licensed manufacturers and dealers in Machineguns and Destructive devices. You can probably look through your phonebook in Class III friendly states and call one up. They'd be more than happy to instruct you in the proper way to legally purchase a fully-automatic weapon, silencer, short-barreled rifle, SBS, AOW, and perhaps even a destructive device like a 20mm cannon or mortar. This is not an underworld or subculture it's a thriving hobby world where people legally enjoy collecting, trading, and shooting these weapons.

The BATF knows who I am, my business and FFL are registered under my user name. I've got nothing to hide. When do I get the call? Wait, I'll call them. Just got off the phone. They referred me to their web site and they're sending my Form 1's and Form 4's now. These things aren't illegal if done by the law. They are taxed and highly regulated, but legal. In fact, you can get the forms to manufacture and transfer NFA weapons here:

Form 1 (http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53201.pdf)
Form 4 (http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53204.pdf)

[Quartus]

Oh, Badger, there you go confusing the issue with FACTS!

Harumph! :fire:


:D


I think the BATFE is concerned about ACT #2 events, and could care less about ACT #1.

Nicely made distinction. Lost on some here, perhaps, but well done. Wrong conclusion, however. They couldn't care less about either activity. Both are perfectly lawful.


(If they "could care less", they must care SOME. The fact is, they don't care AT ALL, so they could NOT (or couldn't) care less than they do.)

[AZ Jeff]

Yup, you're right. The proper phrase would be: the BATFE could NOT care less. Sloppy writing on my part.

[Hkmp5sd]

Better be careful there, Badger. Next thing you know, you'll be providing explicit instructions on how to create an illegal short barreled shotgun by cutting the barrel off with a hacksaw.:)

Some things are just too dangerous for the average civilian to know.:scrutiny:

[1911Tuner]

Guys, please don't misconstrue what I'm trying to say. I never said that it
was illegal to post something like that. I never said that it would result in a
charge. I only meant to imply that it COULD be viewed by some people as
a conspiracy, and that it would draw unwanted attention. Once you gotten their attention in a matter like that, you've pretty much got it for life.

There are also some undeniably zealous agents in their employ...people
who would work very hard at trying to find some way to make a charge,
and even though it wouldn't stick, it would cost money, time and a high
degree of stress and many sleepless nights until resolved. My only
implication was that it would be unwise to discuss such modifications
on a public forum on the internet, where people from all walks of life
can see it...savvy, veteran federal agents who would blow it off, as well as
young upstarts looking to put a feather in their cap.

A successful firearms dealer in my area went bankrupt during an ongoing
and unwarranted investigation by the ATF. People stopped doing business with the guy because they didn't want to be associated with the whole affair. No charges were ever filed, but it was too late to save his business. I won't provide a name, but the bankruptcy occurred in Winston-Salem, NC in late 1986, and is a matter of public record, should anybody want to look into it. There was only one dealer in W-S to go under that year, so it shouldn't be hard to trace. Look for M******* Guns and Coins. When you get a name, call the guy...He's in the book. He'll give you an earful about what an unfounded rumor can do.

I'll stand by my statement. It would be wise to refrain from providing this
information publicly. Any given agent that you talk to may not care one bit,
but there's a chance that it will be read by one who will go to extremes to
make a federal case out of it.

Tuner<------out!

[Quartus]

I only meant to imply that it COULD be viewed by some people as
a conspiracy, and that it would draw unwanted attention. Once you gotten their attention in a matter like that, you've pretty much got it for life.


Gotcha, 1911. And agreed!



The Plumber seems to have a different view, as far as I can tell.

[Jim K]

It is a good thing no one discussed how an airplane flies, or we would have thousands of people out there building their own 747's.

I think it would take a little more than describing how a full auto weapon works to make a case for criminal conspiracy. In fact, I have never known anyone convicted or even charged with a crime unless he actually made or participated in making a conversion.

Regardless of what has been said, there is nothing in the law or BATFE regulations prohibiting discussing auto weapons or, for that matter, discussing conversions in a general way. I would appreciate it if the persons stating that as a fact would cite the applicable section(s) of the US Code or the CFR. I suppose an overzealous BATFE agent could try some conspiracy charge, but I doubt it would get far in the absence of actual participation in making such weapons.

Jim