shooting OLD guns

[craig_o]

question for you fellas:

My grandpa is in bad health and has since passed on several guns, most of which he forgot he even had. In other words, they are in the best shape. Some, like a pre-1920s S&W top-break were, according to a note that apparently came with it, in need of repair for some time.

One in particular has become a project for me. It's a vest pocket .25 ACP gun of Spanish make in the 1913 style. From what little I've learned, LOTS of these little guys were made in the same region by the same company under a lot of different names (this one is a RAYON) so it's not like it's one of a kind, I just like the history.

I was surprised how good it looked considering it was owned by my GREAT grandfather. A little internal rust (it's presently soaking in Auto Transmission Fluid), no pitting that I could see, no cracks, the springs are still in good condition.. really doesn't look BAD. But, to finally get to my question, I was curious under what conditions you would consider firing this gun... in other words, is ANY rust the death knell for this little guy?

[Jeff F]

I've got a Spanish Ruby .32 that I shoot all the time. Not very accurate at range but 30 feet and under it will unload 10 rounds on target pretty quick and it has never had a failure.

[Moonclip]

1st off sorry about your grandfather. Maybe you can post pics of the gun? If it bugs you that much and even if it doesn't having a gunsmith check it out may be prudent.

[craig_o]

will almost definitely have a 'smith check it out, but more than anything I was wondering if I was wasting time hoping to shoot a (formerly) rusty firearm.

pics will be posted tomorrow after the ATF soak.

[Cosmoline]

Rust per se doesn't mean much of anything. If there's pitting around any steel exposed to gas pressure I wouldn't shoot it, otherwise I might.

[mainmech48]

There were an awfully lot of little 'cottage industry' makers who sold their wares under a host of trade names in the Basque region of Spain between the Wars. Many thousands were imported into the US and most sold very cheaply. Build quality ranged from 'decent' to 'suicide special'. Most seem to be knock-offs of more expensive models.

I'd concur with the recommendations to have it thoroughly checked and serviced with at least new springs all around by a knowledgeable 'smith before even attempting to fire it.

[craig_o]

got it back in the ATF for another day or two long soak. it looks good really... more gunk build-up than anything. the only possible concern is the barrel which does NOT show any pitting, but has a kind of general dirt-shaded brown inside. Really doesn't look like rust and the rifling is visible.. kind of confused by it.

Anyway, pics in a couple days (I know you just can't wait).

[XavierBreath]

I enjoy shooting old guns, and a bit of rust, once cleaned up, would not deter me. You must have an understanding of how the gun functions and make a fair assessment of the risks. Pay paticular attention to......well,everything.

Honestly, I would think few reputable gunsmiths are likely to tell you that a rusty old Ruby type pistol is safe to shoot. They don't want you to injure your hand and then have word get around they said the gun was safe.

ATF is a fantastic parts freer upper. Shoot the pistol several times with only one round in it. Check it for extraction and ejection issues. Take a look at the expelled casings for bulges/cracks. Field strip and examine the pistol closely again after these trial shots. consider examining it under a glass. An old scope contains lenses that once removed, make excellent magnifying glasses for this purpose. I use the liquified soot/oil mix to tell me if cracks are present. The recently fired dirty gun will tell you more about it's condition than the sparkly clean one will.

Then , I load two rounds for a few mags, then three, and finally, a full magazine. All this time, I'm checking function. When the gun functions reliably and safely, I start assessing accuracy.

[dubious]

Whenever I first shoot old guns or new recipes for high power reloads I take a few precautions. These may not be enough to guarantee your safety, but its what I do... or at least try to do. I have a few dangerous hobbies, but I am a cautious man. I'm sure everything will be fine with your gun, as long as you give it a good desrusting. I don't want to freak you out... I just want to give you some safety pointers.

Even a .22 Kaboom can ruin your day / month:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=282020&highlight=buckmark+kaboom

1. Wear Eye Protection: I ALWAYS wear eye protection... while it may not stop full on shrapnel, it will protect you from hot gasses and particles and perhaps some low velocity shrapnel. Not sunglasses... Impact plastic. Revolvers are particularly prone to the whole hot gasses thing. I've even been known to wear my motorcycle helmet when testing new rounds! :evil: Also, wear fingerless gloves and a thick jacket if you can.

2. Carry a Cell. Phone: I try my best to always have my cell. phone charged and ready when shooting. I am pretty confident I can dial paramedics 911 even if I'm blinded.

3. Shoot with a Buddy: Have a buddy hang back at a safe distance. He can drag your sorry ass to the hospital if you are kaboomed.

4. Shoot near a Hospital: Try NOT to shoot experimental guns way out in the desert or the mountains. Select a range that is as near a hospital as possible (10-15 mins for me).

5. Use Cover for testing: It doesn't matter if you get a tight group on your target in the first few shots, so just go ahead and stick your gun out from behind cover. Be sure you're not aiming over the backstop. Protect your face and body. That way only your hand will get hit if you do experience a kaboom. If you've got connections to gunnies, maybe you can use a ransom rest with automated trigger pull. You can then hide entirely behind cover.

Again, I don't want to freak you out... this is just some common sense guidelines that may save your life. If you take your guns to a gunsmith and ithey check out... this is what I would do.

[XavierBreath]

Very good points dub!

[Jim Keenan]

Most of those guns were of dubious quality, but I have fired a lot of them with no problems (and without the EMTs standing by). I can't recall a case of a .25 ACP auto ever blowing up, but a lot of Spanish revolvers of the same era did, even with standard pressure ammo.

Jim

[1911Tuner]

Take it to a smith and have it checked out. I don't care if Uncle Joe Bob said that he's had a dozen of'em exactly like it and never had a problem. His guns aren't THAT gun...and any old gun with an unknown history is suspect until proven otherwise...and I don't mean firing it for proof. I can introduce you to a man with half of his thumb and index finger missing that'll back that up.

[Jim Watson]

Agree with XB. Where do you find a gunsmith who will tell you an obsolete gun is definitely safe to fire? Or, for that matter, tell you for sure it is not?

Most of the repair gunsmiths fixing rabbit guns wouldn't know what they were looking at, and the deluxe customizers and restorers wouldn't give you the time of day on a second hand or surplus piece checkout.

And headspace, ohmygod the headspace. People worry about the headspace in surplus rifles to be shot with surplus ammunition. What to do if it is off? Trash the gun? Repair costs would likely exceed the value of the typical Nazi and Commie stuff being pushed on gullible Colonials these days. Or a new gun. A guy here freaked out over a long chamber in a dinky little AR carbine that shot well sub-MOA. I'd have adjusted my sizing die to suit and got on with business but he demanded replacement, reparations, and abasement.

[TEDDY]

Jim :I have shot guns older than most here redhead no 2/bluebird/meriden arms/thames. ect.all kinds of ivers and h&r.
one warning not mentioned is most of those old guns were carried and not shot or if shot may not have fired over 50 rds.tthey are not like the new guns that are fired 100/1000 times.I have a S&W I frame in 32 S&W long I shoot.
I have already fired my 1888 commision rifle,BUT not with surplus 8 mm.
:uhoh::rolleyes:

[1911Tuner]

Where do you find a gunsmith who will tell you an obsolete gun is definitely safe to fire? Or, for that matter, tell you for sure it is not?

Checking headspace on a revolver isn't too complicated. If a .005 feeler gauge will slip between a case rim and the recoil shield, it's loose enough. If a .007 gauge will slip in...it's a bit too loose. If an .008 gauge will go...don't shoot it.

Of course, this isn't as precise as using a standard set of GO/NO-GO gauges...but it's close enough for gub'mint work. If available, a standard gauge set is preferable.

This is a quick'n'dirty headspace check only, and doesn't address any other possible issues.

If the revolver is a top-break model, try to break it down without using the latch. If there's more than barely discernible "break"...it would be wise to hang it on the wall.

[Jim Keenan]

Most of those old cheap revolvers won't actually KB with factory ammo, but, as Teddy says, they were never made for durability. Usually something will break before they wear enough to be dangerous.

What pains me is to see a good quality gun, an old S&W, Colt, M&H, blown by some jerk who just had to load modern powder in an amount greater than the "MAX" in the books.

IMHO, Elmer Keith has a lot to answer for.

Jim