Student Protest Gun Ban for Campus


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El Tejon
April 23, 2008, 07:19 AM
From the Journal & Courier, Lafayette, Indiana: news from the nationwide campus gun ban protest. Got to love the moronic comments from the former State Policeman. How to tell the difference? Well, gee, how do your highly trained officers tell the difference in the grocery store, movie theater, sidewalk, etc., Johnny?:rolleyes:

It is as if someone gave him a script to read and he read it without thinking.

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http://www.jconline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080423/NEWS05/804230355

Students protest concealed weapons laws
By ERIC WEDDLE • eweddle@journalandcourier.com • April 23, 2008

If Chris Jewell carried a gun on the Ivy Tech Community College Lafayette campus, it would be a .40 caliber Smith & Wesson.

"My shirt covers it when holstered," he said. "You never know it is there unless, God forbid, it had to be used."

Jewell, a criminal justice sophomore, is part of a 28,500-member national organization called Students for Concealed Carry on Campus. This week members are wearing empty gun holsters to class at 125 colleges, including Ivy Tech, in an attempt to draw attention to university policies and state laws that prevent licensed gun owners from being armed on campus.

Indiana law grants Ivy Tech and Purdue University the power to prohibit guns from their property -- a policy that neither school plans to change, according to each school's spokesman. While about 15 Ivy Tech students are actively taking part in this week's protest, not all students want that policy to change.

"I think it is unneeded and could cause potential liability," Gabriel Valtierra, an Ivy Tech sophomore, said. "I wouldn't feel safe knowing that other people have guns on campus."

Valtierra said he and other friends have a comfortable sense of safety at campus, but it would be upset of students could carry guns.

Reassuring students that concealed carry would increase safety and not be a distraction is what Jewell wants to accomplish this week.

"This is an education-based goal, to share with people what the policies are and that everyone has the right to self-defense," he said.

An off-duty, armed Lafayette Police Department officer patrols Ivy Tech most of the day every day, along with unarmed security officers, said Tom McCool, campus spokesman.

John Mishler, an Ivy Tech criminal justice instructor and retired 34-year Indiana State Police officer, sees many sides to the issue.

"As a citizen, I want that right," he said. "But as an instructor or law enforcement officer, I have a problem with people carrying guns."

If anyone could carry a firearm on campus, Mishler said, how would police separate legally licensed students from an assailant?

But Andrew Lowe, a Purdue University senior, favors licensed students having the choice to carry, especially after shootings at Northern Illinois University and Virginia Tech.

"One, I do have the right," he said. "Second, it is really the only effective means of protecting yourself on campus. The police can't. In the recent campus shootings the police arrived after the shootings were over."

As part of the protest, Joaquin Orozco, an Ivy Tech freshman, wore a black holster Tuesday reserved for his Glock 22 when he is not in class or work.

"You can't secure everything and everyone," he said. "But I want to secure myself. It is my right, and I want that extra security."

In Indiana, people over 18 can apply for a permit to carry a handgun, said Gloria Andrews, Tippecanoe County Sheriff's Department's firearms clerk. They must be 21 to purchase the gun, however.

A four-year permit costs $40, and a lifetime permit is $125 if the applicant passes a background check, she said.

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ZeSpectre
April 23, 2008, 07:34 AM
"I wouldn't feel safe knowing that other people have guns on campus."
Translation: I'm couldn't trust myself with a gun on campus so I'm going to project that fear onto everyone else.

If anyone could carry a firearm on campus, Mishler said, how would police separate legally licensed students from an assailant?
There's an old joke...
A-"What's the difference between an egg and an elephant?"
B-"Ummm, I don't know."
A-"Well then, I guess I'm not sending you to the store for a dozen eggs!"

Geno
April 23, 2008, 07:58 AM
Don't forget the professors who participate too. I have been wearing my CCW vest on-going for over a year now. I am amazed at how often people come up to me and ask "Where did you buy that vest?! I like that!"

I always take the time to explain that it is a CCW vest. With that I get mixed reactions, and those who express anything negative, I take the opportunity to educate them about the legality versus Constitutionality of CCW. I end it with, "When seconds count, the police are minutes away."

To date only one “anti” has dared take me to task regarding carry. That was in one my research classes (prior to the class beginning). When I asked the student for, "…the research statistics and a reference to substantiate the position…", the opposition ended, but I continued to educate him as to his errant way. I looked at the student and responded,

"Exactly...affirmation bias! What you fail to understand is that Campus Insecurity will not protect you...I know that to be fact! Campus Security stood by two years ago and allowed a local gang to beat a student in the head with a tire iron. The gang then left, but returned 15 minutes later, entered the student housing (the student's dorm room), dragged the student back out into the parking lot and beat him a again. Campus Insecurity stood there, watching for a total of two separate beating of the same student, for over 45 minutes duration and did nothing!!! The police (DPS) never arrived until over 90 minutes later!!! Now how safe do you feel?!"

As a matter of reference, the student was beaten survived, but sustained a "severe TBI" (traumatic brain injury) and was forced to drop from college for lack of any remaining cognitive ability. I know, I'm preaching to the choir.

Edit to add. I have noted one cocnsistent fact. The "antis" are quite frequently unprepared for a factual debate about CCW. They can assert bias, but when pressed for factual debate, they fall apart. Be prepared. Be "armed" with facts, and take them to task.

ZeSpectre
April 23, 2008, 08:25 AM
I have noted one cocnsistent fact. The "antis" are quite frequently unprepared for a factual debate about CCW. They can assert bias, but when pressed for factual debate, they fall apart.

And then -quite often- they get angry and the cursing starts <sigh>.

I don't think I'll ever forget a situation a while back at a political lobby where an anti approached me (I was open carrying at the time for the purposes of the lobby event) and started haranguing me mercilessly about my "evil gun". Another guy walks up and looks at her and looks at me and says "hey now let me get this straight, you say you are worried about the self control of people with guns but you are getting in this ARMED guy's face and giving him a hard time for just standing here? I don't know if you have a lot of courage or are just really stupid."

Wow, she about peeled the paint off the wall with her language/anger after that.

Dick1911
April 23, 2008, 08:32 AM
And then -quite often- they get angry and the cursing starts <sigh>.
That's usually the case when they cannot respond with logic or fact - the name calling and accusation that you have no feelings. After all, what do the facts have to do with feelings? Many just want to feel good or feel like they did something even if it was useless. :rolleyes:

Old Fuff
April 23, 2008, 10:22 AM
"I think it is unneeded and could cause potential liability," Gabriel Valtierra, an Ivy Tech sophomore, said. "I wouldn't feel safe knowing that other people have guns on campus."

Valtierra said he and other friends have a comfortable sense of safety at campus, but it would be upset of students could carry guns.

Oh I am so glad that these students have a "confortable sense of safety," and I wouldn't want them to get upset, but I wonder how they cope when they leave their secure campus and go out into the real world?

It also occures to me that some of the students that died at Virginia Tech felt the same way until their last moments when they discovered too late that there are some people in this world who are not warm and fuzzy, and don't pay any attention to the "No Guns" sign on the door. :banghead:

The Wiry Irishman
April 23, 2008, 11:03 PM
I wish the author would have added more from the conversation we had, or at least included the references and citations I included with everything I said. The reporter seemed like a decent guy, though. No sign of bias in either direction throughout a 20+ minute conversation.

(It's my name that's bolded in El Tejon's post)

Frog48
April 24, 2008, 02:14 AM
An off-duty, armed Lafayette Police Department officer patrols Ivy Tech most of the day every day, along with unarmed security officers, said Tom McCool, campus spokesman.

Unarmed security? Haha right, like the little old man in the golf cart will be of any help, should an incident go down...

Euclidean
April 24, 2008, 02:18 AM
"As a citizen, I want that right," he said. "But as an instructor or law enforcement officer, I have a problem with people carrying guns."

So as long as he has that right, who cares if anyone else does?

VARifleman
April 24, 2008, 02:35 AM
From my school paper yesterday...

http://www.technicianonline.com/media/storage/paper848/news/2008/04/23/News/Group.Protests.Gun.Contol-3342583.shtml

The N.C. State chapter of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus is participating in national Empty Holster protest that will run through Friday to advocate for legislation to allow concealed carry on campus.

Students participating in this week-long protest, which began April 21, walk around with an open holster on their hip in protest of state laws and school policies that restrict concealed handguns on campus with an emphasis on educating people who aren't aware of the laws.

According to Students for Concealed Carry on Campus member Ches McDowell, freshman in political science, participants in the protest are making a statement that the students walking around with open holsters would be the same people protecting others in case of an emergency where police couldn't arrive in time. He also said that they are showing the public how many people on college campuses are left defenseless.

"This is just to show that we're not violent people, and the people who are going to do the school shootings and robberies are not the people who are going to go and get a concealed carry permit where they have to provide their fingerprints and pay a fee," McDowell said. "It helps to put a nonviolent face with the advocates for concealed carry on."

According to McDowell, the group hopes that the protest will not only be an effective tool for advocating concealed carry on campus, but also help to change students' minds about the issue.

Thomas Knight, senior in civil engineering, is also participating in the protests because he said he feels the laws against concealed carry on campus restrict the wrong people and are beneficial to the criminals because they are guaranteed a safe zone on campus.

"We're trying to raise awareness that we're good people, we're not going to be harming any student," he said.

He added that the protest gives criminals a chance to see "that if legislation is changed and people can carry concealed weapons on campus then they don't have a safe area anymore and they aren't guaranteed that they aren't going to meet serious repercussions."

Knight is also concerned that since the boundaries of the University extend to Hillsborough Street and Western Boulevard, it will be a felony to drive eastbound on Hillsborough Street with a firearm that you can lawfully carry outside of that area.

"The best thing that happens when you allow concealed carry on campus is that it noticeably reduces crime and the worst thing that happens is no change at all so it's just not a logical implement for society to impose," said Knight.

However, not everyone agrees with the protest. Christina Kennedy, junior in political science, said she feels that concealed weapons will just increase the presence of guns and thus a greater chance of someone getting hurt.

"Even if it is for protection, it's not as safe," Kennedy said. "If there is a shoot out, then more bullets flying would not be a good thing. I would feel less safe if the concealed carry were passed for college campuses."

This is the second Empty Holster protest held by the national Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, which has just under 30,000 members, according to the organization's official website.

Robert Hairless
April 24, 2008, 10:21 AM
John Mishler, an Ivy Tech criminal justice instructor and retired 34-year Indiana State Police officer, sees many sides to the issue.

"As a citizen, I want that right," he said. "But as an instructor or law enforcement officer, I have a problem with people carrying guns."

If anyone could carry a firearm on campus, Mishler said, how would police separate legally licensed students from an assailant?

Mr. Mishler needs to pay attention. The basic issue isn't whether "anyone could carry a firearm on campus." It is about why responsible people, legally licensed by the state to carry concealed weapons, are not allowed to do that on campus.

There is another issue that has emerged. That issue is why law enforcement officers and their instructors are unable to distinguish between good and bad people unless the bad people are carrying firearms.

This issue is vital because criminals do not always carry firearms while raping, assaulting, or murdering good people. Since instructors like Mr. Mishler are unable to teach criminal justice students at Ivy Tech how to identify criminals unless they are carrying firearms, there's no real value to either Mr. Mishler or his students and the Ivy Tech program is a sham.

Related to that vital issue is the question of why Mr. Mishler, his students, and the administration of Ivy Tech are unable to work with students instead of against them. It should be an easy matter for campus police to coordinate simple recognition signals and other ways to identify CWP holders in a crisis.

As for the other students on campus, perhaps they could wear jackets with "Please Don't Shoot Me" or "Innocent Person Here" printed in big, white letters on back so that Mr. Mishler and his students don't mistake them for criminals and shoot them.

At Virginia Tech, by the way, its enlightened president and administration awarded a degree to each of the thirty murdered students. This is something for all institutions of higher education to adopt--a posthumous degree awarded victims of the institution's administrative incompetence and the failure of its legislative oversight.

I don't know how much value there is in such a degree but it does make people feel good.

Henry Bowman
April 24, 2008, 01:45 PM
"The best thing that happens when you allow concealed carry on campus is that it noticeably reduces crime and the worst thing that happens is no change at all so it's just not a logical implement for society to impose," said Knight.I assume he said "oppose."



However, not everyone agrees with the protest. Christina Kennedy, junior in political science, said she feels that concealed weapons will just increase the presence of guns and thus a greater chance of someone getting hurt.

"Even if it is for protection, it's not as safe," Kennedy said. "If there is a shoot out, then more bullets flying would not be a good thing. I would feel less safe if the concealed carry were passed for college campuses."So, if there is a shooting, the last person you are going to call is a person with a gun (cop), right? :rolleyes: Anyway, a "shootout" implies that someone is shooting back.

Robert Hairless
April 24, 2008, 04:29 PM
I would feel less safe if the concealed carry were passed for college campuses.

Oh darn. I don't see how anyone can justify allowing other people to carry the means to defend their lives when it makes Christina Kennedy "feel less safe."

Christina is a junior now so she has just another academic year to go. Maybe people with concealed weapons permits won't mind risking their lives until Christina graduates and can feel safe somewhere else?

Of course if Christina Kennedy goes on to graduate school and wants to feel safe there too, you guys will just have to die as necessary. The world pivots on Christina Kennedy as its axis. Her mommy and daddy probably told her so.

When I was young my mommy and daddy told me that I was not the center of the universe. Ah, if they only knew then what parents of today know about raising children.

The Wiry Irishman
April 24, 2008, 06:43 PM
would feel less safe if the concealed carry were passed for college campuses.
Oh darn. I don't see how anyone can justify allowing other people to carry the means to defend their lives when it makes Christina Kennedy "feel less safe."

When I was being interviewed, he asked me if it was possible to completely conceal a gun, since several students he interviewed said seeing someone with a gun in class would make them uncomfortable.

I replied that yes, its very easy to conceal a pistol, but how it makes people feel is irrelevant. Their rights are not being infringed and facts and statistics clearly illustrate that they are not in danger from a licensed, armed individual. Potential emotional discomfort is not a reasonable basis for any sort of policy or legal action.

VARifleman
April 24, 2008, 07:33 PM
I assume he said "oppose."
It's a misquote by the writer, actually. The full quote is along the lines of "impose a ban on people lawfully carrying firearms."

Robert Hairless
April 25, 2008, 12:59 AM
When I was being interviewed, he asked me if it was possible to completely conceal a gun, since several students he interviewed said seeing someone with a gun in class would make them uncomfortable.

I replied that yes, its very easy to conceal a pistol, but how it makes people feel is irrelevant. Their rights are not being infringed and facts and statistics clearly illustrate that they are not in danger from a licensed, armed individual. Potential emotional discomfort is not a reasonable basis for any sort of policy or legal action.

Well said.

divemedic
April 25, 2008, 09:08 AM
Kennedy said. "If there is a shoot out, then more bullets flying would not be a good thing. I would feel less safe if the concealed carry were passed for college campuses."

Kennedy went on to say, "Because it is much safer if no one shoots back. Look at Virginia Tech, with only one person shooting, they had so many killed. If people were shooting back, who knows how many people would have been caught in the crossfire. Anyway, I gotta go to the mall and buy some more Che shirts and some Birkenstocks, so TTFN."

Old Fuff
April 25, 2008, 09:37 AM
Kennedy went on to say, "Because it is much safer if no one shoots back. Look at Virginia Tech, with only one person shooting, they had so many killed. If people were shooting back, who knows how many people would have been caught in the crossfire.

I can see the logic in this. :rolleyes:

We need new regulations in out colleges and universities. I mean that shooting back at a killer would create a deadly crossfire and more bullets mean more killing, just like more guns will certainly result in the same thing. Ever since this concealed weapons licensing thing got started blood has been running in the streets. Itís just not safe to go out without your Teddy Bear.

I propose that we disarm everybody, including the campus police. That way nobody would shoot off guns, and there would only be one shooter. Clearly, fewer bullets would be flying around and fewer people would be injured or killed.

Including the killer. The very thought makes me feel even more warm and fuzzy, and it might get to the point where I could leave Teddy home. :D

Pilgrim
April 25, 2008, 09:53 AM
If anyone could carry a firearm on campus, Mishler said, how would police separate legally licensed students from an assailant?
By their behavior, followed by asking politely those who do not seem to be an immediate threat.

Pilgrim

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