[xenophon]

[8/16/03] BIG UPDATE, see my long post further down in this thread

Looking for that first gun, but, I've never handled one before, never ever fired one. Granted I'm young (in my twenties) but I just now decided to assert my right to bear arms, mainly for self defense. Have been doing research nightly for the past month, and have learned a lot, but I had a question to pose:

If I know nothing about guns, how would I fare showing up at a shooting range? I'm new to my area so I don't have any buds to take me to the range and show me the ropes, so I'm having to go it alone. Open to idea of having instruction, but if i just wanna rent a few guns and shoot em around and decide that I like before I buy. I'm very aware of the basic 4 rules of guns, so I don't think I'd be unsafe in that aspect, but I've never loaded one, or racked a slide if ya get my drift..how hard is it to pick up? People at ranges usually friendly to newbies like myself and would take time to show a few pointers? I'm just afraid of renting that gun and not knowing what buttons do what..I'm an educated man, but I don't wanna look like an idiot...oops, too late. Anyways, suggestions?

[Kalvan]

I would seriously suggest that you go to the NRA website and find a nearby Basic Pistol class. It'll teach you the basic "pieces parts" and how to load/unload and cock/decock revolvers and semi-autos in general so you at least know what sort of controls to be looking for on whatever you're shooting. Much easier to ask the guy renting it to you "where's the cylinder release (or magazine release or slide stop, etc) on this one?" The other reason to take the basic class is there is a difference between learning to shoot and learning to pull a trigger and ingrain bad habits. Better to learn the correct way to do it from the outset. It takes 3000-5000 repetitions to make something a conditioned response. It takes several thousand to break a bad habit and then 3-5000 reps to learn it right if you try to teach yourself first. I recently had a guy who had never had any real instruction so I told him I'd go to the range with him and train him. The day before he went with me, he went out on his own and fired 300 rounds. The next day he had a horrible flinch. He probably got to fire 30 live rounds with me, out of 300 trigger pulls, and I had barely started to correct the flinch when we had to call it a day. Really, get someone who knows what they're doing to train you. I think you'll be much happier with the results.

Gotta say, lovin' your screen name. :D

[xenophon]

I agree about having good instruction so as to not get off on the wrong foot, or SHOOT the foot. I fly rc planes too, and that's one hobby someone can't easily pick up without instruction, so I feel you. I searched the NRA website for classes, but the nearest place to Milwaukee I could find was about 1 1/2 hours away in Rockford, IL. Granted that's not TOO bad, but I'd prefer somewhere within 30 minutes. Plus I've heard bad things about IL and gun laws, or is that just Chicago? ;) I suppose I should call some of the local ranges around here and ask what kinda instruction they offer.

I'm sure I could figure out what does what on the gun pretty quickly, and if I ever did get one, I'd read the manual front to back a few times and handle it with the ammo no where near me. As far as self defense purposes, I take it one still needs good markmanship to be "effective" so I would hate to develop bad habits. Anyways, I've been looking at Glocks, so I'm geared more towards that, I'm not really into the revolvers though I've heard those are good "first guns". I'd have no problem cleaning/maintaining a semi, and a glock looks pretty forgiving.

Glad ya like the nick.

[Kalvan]

There should be a place to email the NRA and ask if there are any certified instructors in your vicinity. Checking with local gun clubs is good because someone there is likely to have info. Lots of times instructors will leave their business cards at the counter of shooting ranges and gun stores.

Definitely read the manual, but I was talking about renting at a range.

Glocks are excellent guns, IMO. They are usually accurate out of the box, easy to assemble/disassemble (don't wipe out the copper goo on a new one). Very robust. They have a relatively light (standard is 5.5 lb) trigger pull for each shot and no manual safety to remember to release - a real "point and click" interface. It is a 2-stage trigger, so you have to remember to take up the slack, THEN squeeze. Smooth press to a surprise break and all that. The thing about Glocks is that the very features that make them so efficient in a fight also make them very unforgiving of poor gunhandling. If you carry one with a round in the chamber you must have it in a rigid holster, so that nothing can touch the little tab on the trigger which releases all the internal safeties, and be very careful about keeping your finger outside the triggerguard up on the frame until you're actually ready to shoot. I usually carry a cocked and locked 1911, but I'm more on my guard when carrying a Glock because there is no manual safety to release.

[xenophon]

Good advise so far, I'll have to do some research to find some good instructors around me, the usual search pages haven't yielded around here. Time to do it the old fashioned way and pick up the phone. If any of you happen to know good contacts around Milwaukee, send me a PM.

Your description of the glock is exactly what drew me towards it...simple point and click. I was always wondering about how the glock would be as a carry weapon due to the "no external safety" other than the trigger safety thing. Though I've heard it has good internal safeties and I like the fact if you drop the glock, you don't have to worry about an AD (though I will strive to never drop it!!)

Another thing I've thought about is recoil vs self defense for my first gun...i mean, I want my first gun to be a good self defense gun, so I've looked at the 40 S&W glocks. Yet, I've read lighter recoil guns are better to train on, so I'm kinda stuck on what to do. I figure I better try out the 9MM and 40 first to see how I handle them, and that's why my whole idea of going to the range first came up. (I am correct in saying 9mm is easier to train on that 40sw right?)

x

[Kalvan]

Yes, the Glock is "drop safe". They've dropped them from a helicopter at 2000' and it didn't go off. But if anything depresses the safety release you are only 5.5-lb away from an accident. You've got to decide for yourself if the "pluses" outweigh the "minuses".

I like .40 or better for self-defense. I occasionally carry a 9mm or .38+P's in a .357, but my preferred cartridge is the .45 ACP. It makes a hole almost 1/2" in diameter even if the hollowpoint doesn't expand, and it typically has less blast and flash and a less "snappy" recoil because it is not such a high pressure round. (IMO the smaller calibers try to make up for lack of diameter and mass by making the bullet go faster to get the hollowpoint to open reliably and penetrate suffieciently, which means higher pressure, which typically means more blast and flash and a sharper recoil.) Bottom line is that the 9x19 or .40 S&W will get the job done as long as you stay cool and remember that it's not hitting something that is important, it's hitting something important that's important, and you have to do that with a .45 too. One important thing about the 9mm is that if you don't reload, the factory ammo is cheaper and the more you can afford and the more you shoot the better you get. Shooting is not like riding a bike. It's a perishable skill, more like learning a foreign language. You have to make a little time for it every day and do 10-15 minutes of dry fire practice. Lots of short sessions with a sleep period in between helps wear a track into your motor memory so that when you actually go out to shoot your subconscious is less likely to betray you by getting you to flinch, or heel, or ride the recoil, or thumb, or lobster the gun (all problems due to anticipation and your mind knowing "THIS IS GOING TO BE UNPLEASANT!") If you can try the Glock in the various calibers that is definitely the way to go. Recoil perception tends to be a rather individual thing. Some guys don't want to carry a .45 ACP because it's just "too much gun" for them. My wife's about 5'4" and carries a 1911 .45 because that's what she shoots the best in IPSC and IDPA and 3-Gun competition. But she doesn't like .45 ACP in a revolver where she absorbs all the recoil.

[mattd]

If you don't want to look like a newb then don't rent a glock as your first handgun. I'd Rent a .22 handgun because the ammo is very cheap, 500 rounds for 10 bucks rather then .10 cent a round , they also have very little kick. Then when you learn to shoot and feel confident with a gun step up to the bigger guns. This is a very popular .22 handgun http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/PDF/01.pdf

[greyhound]

Welcome- I was in your shoes in November 02, and look how far I've come.
What I did was contrary to all advice - I bought a gun never having held one before. Though I now see it would have been smart to rent some first, but I was kinda intimidated by the whole range thing. I got over it fast as it really wasn't too complicated; just follow all their rules which they are most likely to have posted everywhere!

I would recommend a revolver, they are much less complicated than a semiauto. I got a 4" .38 Special, though a lot of people suggest a .357 Magnum because you can also shoot .38s. Get it, play with it (respecting the 4 rules!). I practiced loading and unloading it so I wouldn't look like a fool at the range. I also read the owner's manual many times and got as much info off the internet as I could.

A warning, though, once you get one gun you're gonna want another!

[mattd]

After you learn the mechanics of how guns work, they are very very simple and 50 parts seem like 4 or 5.

[cslinger]

Now am I sure we have a Wisconsin member or two who would be glad to take you shooting and show you the ropes.

So far you are on the right track because you actually realize that instruction is needed. There are so many guys who think they know how to shoot because it is some genetically ingrained hunter/gatherer skill.

Seriously take a pistol course from the NRA or a local range. If that is not available put the call out to the THR membership. We seem to have members everywhere and I ams sure there would be somebody close enough to you who would jump at the chance to help.

First gun, I suggest a .22 but since it's expensive to buy guns and you mentioned self defense I am going to say a 9mm. Easy to shoot, cheap, available, lots of platforms to shoot it from, and lots of different types of ammo.

Personally I think I would suggest CZ, Glock or Beretta simply because they all have .22 conversion kits available for them and you simply cannot discount the amount of training and practice a .22 will give you, not to mention the fact that 9 out of 10 gun owners agree that whether you are a new shooter or an old sniper.......22 is just TOO FUN not to have.

Chris

[cslinger]

Oh yeah and instead of telling you what guns are good, as many, many are here are a couple that probably are NOT good choices.

AVOID THESE
Lorcin
Davis
Bryco
Raven
Hi-Point (We have members that like them and some of their stuff seems to work pretty well but I still feel they fall into this category.......but they are the best of this category :D)

NOT GREAT BUT NOT DANGEROUS
Charles Daily
Low end 1911 variants

I am sure that we will have people add or disagree with this list but overall those top ones are the junk guns of the industry with hi-point actually making strides to work there way up from junk to low end value.

Basically assume your first gun is going to cost right around $450-$600 to get a good quality semi auto or revolver new in box. If you buy a semi auto budget for an extra magazine or two and ONLY BUY FACTORY MAGAZINES or MEC-GAR brand. As a rule other aftermarket magazines are much cheaper but are very very hit and miss on whether they work right. You spend the bucks on a quality gun give it quality parts and ammo.

Also consider some kind of way to secure the gun when you are not in possession of it. Not just for kids, but nosy adults and burglers.

Whatever you buy, in the immortal words of our shotgun guru Dave, McCracken BA/UU/R. Buy ammo, use up, repeat. Ammo is the best accessory you can buy. Forget about laser sights, combat lights, wings, fins, am/fm radio and for the forseable future just buy ammo and shoot. It's takes a while but eventually the manual of operation of your firearm will become like second nature.

When it does don't get compacient about safety. Always check the chamber twice when you want the gun to be unloaded(handing it to somebody, cleaning etc.)

Know and love the rules of safe shooting.

Stay safe, have fun,

Chris

[mattd]

You forgot Jennings

[davera]

Call around to some local gun stores/ranges. Sometimes they will offer some basic instruction. A place I visit in Atlanta does so, maybe there is one in your area.

Some previously mentioned advice that I agree with (assuming some instruction):

Rent one (or more) .22 handguns at a range, you can shoot them a long time for little cost. Shoot them a lot. Practice matters a lot.

A revolver is a good first gun. When you want to step up in caliber a S&W (L frame) is heavy enough that .38 special has very mild recoil but when shooting .357 magnum is plenty powerful enough for just about any home defense scenario.

But, it is hard to stop at just one; my Sig was followed by a desire for a BIG revolver hence my 686 ( no logical reason, just wanted a BIG revolver), followed by a Beeman P3 ( wanted to practice in my yard ) followed by a Browning Buckmark ( just wanted a nice .22 ).

[Keith]

Nobody ever listens to me, but your first purchase should be a .22. After you've got about 10k rounds downrange from that gun you'll know enough to make a wise choice in a centerfire gun.

Keith

[spacemanspiff]

i started out with a 9mm, and nearly 2 yrs later, i'm still fighting off a horrible flinch.
the .22lr helps, and dryfiring my p22 which has a super-duper-ultra-extreme-biggiesize DA pull has helped increase hand strength. i'm serious, its like close to 15 lbs pull!

remember than once you start shooting, most obstacles in your path towards accuracy lie within yourself. i find that firing from a bench reminds me that its my grip that is incorrect, it is my breath control that is not right, it is my heel that pushes the muzzle down as the trigger breaks.

buy some gun rags, read them, and buy some more. compare their results to what is found on these forums.

[mattd]

The only reason I'd buy a revolver is just to have one. I don't think you can't go wrong buying a popular model of a 9mm autoloader like a Glock H&K , Sig, Taurus , Beretta, Ruger, S&W etc. But a .22 should be the first gun you buy or if you got the money, both.

[Sheslinger]

Ok, so it's pretty scary to be married to someone who takes the words out of my mouth all the time. I was reading the first couple of posts, thinking to myself, "We've got to have some THR members nearby to help this guy out."

Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?

Sheslinger

[ReadyontheRight]

Nobody ever listens to me, but your first purchase should be a .22. After you've got about 10k rounds downrange from that gun you'll know enough to make a wise choice in a centerfire gun.

Ditto to Keith (see, we are listening). You can get a good .22 for ~$300 that you will enjoy shooting for years -- even if you do move up. Ruger and Browning make excellent .22 autoloading pistols that will still outshoot 80% of us on this board after 10K rounds. Although there ARE better caliber choices, a .22 still beats a baseball bat or a call to 911 for immediate self-defense.

I suggest visiting a few gunshops in Milwaukee and asking your same question. If the guys are jerks, just say "thanks, you've been a big help!", walk out and never look back. If they are helpful, they will probably show you a few options, let you handle different guns and probably connect you with a good instructor.

Another good place to get advice is at a local range. Stop by and ask if they have any upcoming seminars on gun safety, NRA bullseye, IDPA, etc. Go and watch a bowling pin tournament (knocking over a set of bowling pins as fast you can shoot. It's a hoot.). Tell them you're a newbie and I'll bet they'll either help you out themselves or give you the name of an instructor.

There is a lot of bluster, pontification and BS in the firearm trining community, but if you get past the loudmouths, you'll find many good folks who have a lot of knowledge -- even from many of the loudmouths.:D

It would probably help if you can tell us how you plan to use your gun. There's no CCW in Wisconsin as far as I know, so a nice big wheelgun like a .357 Ruger or S&W seems like a next logical step from the .22, but there is certainly nothing wrong with autoloaders.

There is also nothing wrong with starting out with a .22 rifle to learn the basics of shooting. Rifles are safer (harder to point at yourself) and more accurate out to longer distances. Many an expert marksman started out hunting squirrels with a beater .22 rifle.

Do you have a range or open area w/ a good backstop where you can go shoot?

[Moparmike]

I have to figure out what to do about renting a pistol. They wont let me at 20, and I hate it. Stupid 21 laws.:cuss: Cant even test one out.:mad:

[lee n. field]

I searched the NRA website for classes, but the nearest place to Milwaukee I could find was about 1 1/2 hours away in Rockford, IL.

I talked to the guy in Rockford about 3 years ago. At that time he was not actively doing any instruction for lack of having any place to do it.:mad:

[mattd]

Have your parents buy you a pistol and give it to you if thats legal in your state.

[Horsesense]

Get yourself a BB pistol and a book on shooting technique (someone could probably recommend a link that offers basic technique on the net) then practice. Start out shooting at close distances (be sure to have a good backstop) and obsess over technique, accuracy and safety.

After you get good with the BB gun, call a range and ask what they have to rent then look up the manual on the net. After you have familiarized yourself with how everything works, go rent it.


PS:For an immediate home defense gun, go out and get a single shot, 20ga, shotgun for less than $100 and a box of the cheapest shells you can find. A single shot shotgun is so simple I would venture to say that anyone, of average intelligence, could use it in an emergency without having ever fired one before. After you get into the grove of things you can sell it for about what you paid for it of just keep it.

[xenophon]

Good stuff so far guys, I appreciate the input.

So besides the point that .22 ammo is much cheaper, what advantages dues a 22 have as a first gun as opposed to a 9mm or even a .40 ? As one of you asked, what was the purpose of me getting a gun? Well, I just wanted to have something to good home self defense. I know WI doesn't allowed concealed carry, but I have been closely watching legislation and it looks like this one Senator here is actively trying to push a law for concealed carry (see http://www.legis.state.wi.us/senate/sen23/news/ppa1.htm )

Seeing that the WI supreme court had a ruling urging laws to be put down clarifying carry laws, I think there is a good chance of having concealed carry within the year. In light of that, and the fact I want a gun soley for self defense, that's why I'm looking at a bigger gun than a .22. Being just outta college I ain't that rich yet so that's why I figure 1 gun for now is more realistic than two. I understand the point a .22 is better than a bat or knife, and that even a shotgun is better for home defense, but I just can't keep a shotgun in my apartment.

Looking at ammo, I see there is tons of choices out there, good lord! I take it JHP must be good for self defense. If I were to purchase like Speer Gold dots or Federal 165gr Hydro-points, what would be a good ammo to use at the range for practice? I get that I should practice with my defense ammo but also realize that is pretty expensive so I guess I would have to take turns with that.

One idea I got is that I could go ahead and purchase a 9mm or .40 (I'm sorry, but I just can't take my off the Glock 23 right now) and go to the range a lot and rent .22's and shoot the heck out of it before I even shoot my glock...at least that way I could still have a glock at home for self defese, dry fire it, get to know the workings of it, while still practicing at the range with a .22 to begin with? Sound reasonable? Also, I just found out my girlfriend has a friend who's father is big into NRA and guns so I'm gonna find out if he could teach me some things.

Also, as a side note, I should point out that my gf used to be VERY ANTI-GUNS, saying she'd never have them around her no matter what.....well, over the past few weeks, I found good facts on this message board about how guns are much less of a danger to kids than other things and other good facts on safety and stories of guns being used in self defense, and I finally got through to her and reversed all her tv new media stereotypes/influences about guns being bad, and she agreed to me going down to the range and having a gun in the house, how bout that!

[Horsesense]

"I just can't keep a shotgun in my apartment."

why not?

[mattd]

If you care about money then you can save 200 dollars buying something like a ruger http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=3079&return=Y and with that 200 dollars you can buy a few high cap 15rd mags and about 1500 rounds of ammo. And Renting rather then buying the .22 is not a bad ideal.

[xenophon]

xenophon: I just can't keep a shotgun in my apartment."

"why not?"


Well, because if I ever have to leave for a while and lock stuff up, I don't have a big lockable place for it. I feel handguns are a little easier to secure up with a nice safe for going away (I just can't shell out for a nice big long safe yet)

mattd, you mentioned in that link a ruger for $200 less. That link you posted retail for $425, is that the one you meant, or did you mean a .22? I was looking at a glock 19 http://www.topglock.com/glock%20specific/19.htm retailing for $462, just $40 more bucks, is that a decent price?

x

[Horsesense]

There are devices that you can lock up the trigger, breach etc. I assume you are concerned about preventing someone from firing it rather than stealing it? Most any gun safe could be carried off unless you bolt it down, which can be problematic in an apartment. Most shotguns are designed to be taken down to two parts then the two can be locked up in a deck drawer etc.

For under $100 you could get the SG for HD, and then you wont feel rushed into getting a pistol without having completely researched/trained etc.

On the other hand, a Glock is a fine weapon and if that’s what you want then get it.

[Trebor]

There is a trainer I know in WI named Jeff Williams. His website is www.criticalreactiontraining.com. I'm not sure where he is in the state, but check out the website and see if he is near you. Even if he isn't, you may want to contact him anyway as he might know someone near you.

As far as a first gun goes, if you are trying to decide between 9mm and .40 S&W, I'd go with the 9mm for a couple of reasons. The first is that the 9mm is one of the easiest to shoot centerfire cartridges around. The second is that 9mm ammo is usually MUCH cheaper than .40 S&W ammo. If you are a new shooter, you'll want to practice ALOT and cheaper ammo will allow you to do that. Go to Wal Mart and buy the 100 round value pack of "Winchester White Box" FMJ for about $10.97 per 100. That's great practice ammo and the best deal going for centerfire ammo.

At this point, don't get too wrapped up in the "what caliber is best?" question. All handgun rounds are more alike than they are different and accurate shot placement is more important than what round you use.

I also have a specific first gun reccomendation. Check out the CZ-75B in 9mm. This is a all steel, traditional double-action (DA first shot, then SA), high-capacity semi-automatic pistol. The gun is accurate, reliable and remarkably easy to shoot. It is also one of the better handgun values going right now and you can get a new one for about $350 or so if you shop around.

Another nice thing about the CZ 75 is that there is a factory .22 Kadet conversion kit available that replaces the barrel and slide on your CZ with a .22 caliber upper end to allow you to practice with cheaper .22 ammo. The .22 Kadet kit is well designed and well built and very accurate. It runs about $250, so you can get the base gun and the kit for about what you'd pay for many other semi-auto's. In effect you get two guns in one.

Go to the CZ forum at www.czforum.com for more info on the CZ 75.

The reason so many people suggested a .22 for a good first gun is that a good .22 is an excellent handgun to use to learn how to shoot. It has very little recoil, which allows you to concentrate on the basics, and the ammo is so extremely cheap that you can practice alot for very little money. If you did buy the CZ-75/.22 Kadet kit combo, one nice thing is that you'd be practicing with the same gun as a .22 that you'd use a 9mm.


A .38 or .357 revolver can also be a good choice for a first gun, but it does have it's drawbacks. A double-action revolver is probably the easiest handgun for a newbie to operate and the easiest to safely load and unload, but the double-action trigger pull takes some work to master.

Glocks are good guns, but personally I hesitate to reccomend them to newbies. They have a relatively simple and straightforward manual of arms (method of operation) that is often compared to a double-action revolver in that there are no safties to manipulate before you can fire. But, the trigger pull is much lighter than a DA revolver and the chance of a AD is, IMHO, higher for a newbie than if that person had a DA revolver.

No matter what gun you pick, check it out to see how it "fits" you first. Some guns will work better for you than others depending on how your hand size/finger length, etc, interacts with the specific grip size and design of any specific pistol. As an example, the Browning High Power and CZ-75 both fit my hands like a glove (one of the reasons I like the CZ so much), but Glocks tend to feel like I'm holding a brick. A well-fitted gun will soon become an extenstion of your arm, and than an extension of your being, and will help you learn to shoot better.

[mattd]

Thats just the msrp you can get the ruger for 300-350 with a 40 dollar rebate. http://www.impactguns.com/store/ruger_p95d.html after shipping and rebate its about 290 and then you got the ffl hangling fee I don't know how much that cost. But your local gun stores might have it for 350+40 dollar rebate or so. But for what I seen 462 isn't a bad price at all for the Glock.

[slh02]

To go to a local range and ask them to show you how to operate the gun you want to rent. Just go in and say "Hey, I'm thinking about getting a 9mm pistol but I have never fired a gun before. I'd like to rent one, can you give me some advise?"

That is pretty much what we did and the guy was real quick to show us a Sig 239. He showed us the basic functions of the gun and made sure we understood how to operate it before sending us into the range. I would almost consider it part of their job.

Trust me, its not that big of a deal. Im sure that they get beginners all of the time.

P.S.- If you are liking the glocks, also take a look into the Walther P99. It has the simplicity and feel of a glock but has the long first trigger pull for increased safety. Mine is a real gem, well over 2k (maybe even approaching 3k) rounds without a single problem.

[xenophon]

Trebor: That website you listed didn't come up, I think the right link is:
http://www.criticalreaction.com Btw, thanks for the cool links and info

I'm quite pleased with the info about the various gun/caliber recommendations so far...now on to range questions. I've always been one who likes to know ahead of time about something before I dive in, so can someone explain step by step what happens on a normal trip to a range? Like, what is the normal procedure of things, i.e go take a bench, load up, setup target, shoot, cease fire, load up, etc etc. How do you setup targets, etc. I've only seen ranges on tv and I have pictures in my mind from scenes in movies where people are shooting up targets and are then pressing some electronic button to automatically bring in the target to check their work (movie Lethal Weapon perhaps??) I think there are two indoor ranges by me so how does the procedure usually go at indoor ranges?

I also have a question about what gun accessories are needed when one purchaes a gun..so far i have
1) holster (hrrmm, kydex or leather though??)
2) gun safe (keypad entry?)
3) cleaning stuff (read something about breakfree CLP, good stuff?? is wal-mart or target gonna have stuff I need or do I have to visit mr. gunshop?
4) ammo (practice and carry (which I assume JHP is the thing
5) night sights?? hrrm, maybe later after I learn to shoot the gun well
6) more magazines..how many do you usually load up and take with to range?
7) saf-t-lok (I'm eyeing the glock so I think that could help safety)

Anything I'm missing, or recommendations?

Goodness gracious, the more I research into this stuff, the more options there are..I never realized owning a gun had anything more to it and "just the gun and the ammo" ;)

x

[Feanaro]

How do things go at the range? My range might be different from others, so take this with a grain of salt. Arrive, get member tags. Get anything I want like rests, etc(The range does not rent them to members, they lend them), You buy some targets and attach them to a cardboard and wood frame(with tape, people kept stealing the stapler, hehe). You can either ask for a cease-fire(on member only range, there is no "hot" or "cold") and put the target into position. Get back to the shooting position(a little table made of concrete blocks on which your stuff rests), lock and load. Shoot targets to pieces, repeat. If you want to check your shots, call cease-fire. On the non-member range, it's "hot" for twenty minutes. That is, firing may take place. Normally it is considered polite to wait till "Cold" to set your target up. When the range is "cold"(for ten minutes) everyone must unload and open the actions if possible. Then you can set stuff up, look at the target and so on. And of course the beer/Coke drinking, shooting the bull, playing with other people's toys and such.

I would advise you to go to a range and rent a few pistols or ask around if you could try some. Make friends with a pistol nut, something. It's a huge disappointment when you get that firearm you thought you'd like and then find one that fits and shoots better.

Nothing for you on holsters, I'm not a pistol guy(because that would be illegal).

Gun safe? Let me be frank. If you wake up at two AM, in the dark with odd noises here and there, you aren't likely to be much better than a body that happens to move and breath. Then that safe, no matter what type, is going to look rather daunting. Doubly so if the noises happen to be Bob "Big Muscles" Robber with a cheap .38 fumbling through your apartment. I'd recommend locking the pistol up if you have children in the apartment but otherwise, no.

For cleaning stuff, you need a bore brush of the chosen caliber, some patches(people will tell you to buy certain caliber patches but I say you can always just cut the durn things up), bore cleaner, lubricant and a rod of the correct caliber(as long as it's smaller than the bore I don't really thing it matters).

For carry ammo I recommend JHPs, assuming they can penetrate at least twelve inches. Don't buy into this Glaser ammo hype and such. For practice, FMJ is cheap. I would not use odd-ball stuff for carry, get a name-brand you can trust. Like Winchester or Remington. I'd use it for practice too if you can afford it, clean up is a pain with some of the cheap stuff.

Night sights? Can't tell you much.

For magazines I'd get about three, nice number. The Chinese are not invading tomorrow and if they are all the pistol magazines in the world won't help, they have rifles. You can always buy more later if you find you want some more.

As for a saf-t-lok, remember my comments on the safe. That trigger lock is going to look like a bad idea when you are stabbed while fumbling with it.

[mattd]

Get a safe if you want to lock it up when going some where far away In less the thing is small and they can just carry it away. If you worried about kids I'd use a safe or field strip the gun of 1 part. For cleaning I would use something called the patch worm, its cheap (5 bucks)and works good and won't damage your barrel as much if any as a wire one would, cleaning the barrel to much will wear it down faster than the bullets(pun not intended). http://20-20.8m.com/ and use a teflon lube like remington teflon lube. As for magazines, depends how much they cost and how long you want to shoot before you have to reload, you can never have to many. And for ammo you can get the cheapest stuff , but if you use all lead bullets you should clean the barrel with the patch worm every 500 rounds. The night sights are a good choice because its easier to aim day or night, the fiber optic night sights are the best type because they collect the light and display it at the end. A bag to carry all the stuff to the range couldn't hurt.

I only been to the range 1 time, I just read the rules, signed my name in, bought some targets, shot for a hour, paid and left. This was at a indoor one so you just use a switch to bring the target in and out like on lethal weapon(the most anti gun hollywood movie on the planet) And wash your hands really good before eatting when coming from the range or handling some ammo because of the lead.

[bedlamite]

xenophon, If you're willing to drive an hour north, I can take you out to the range I'm a member at, go over safety, procedure, and let you shoot anything I've got, starting with a 22. If you're interested, email me at beebe@lsol.net

Also, take a look at http://www.wisconsinconcealedcarry.com/
Email Dick (Monkeyleg on this board) and have him add you to the mailing list.

[Airboss]

My advice is worth about what your going to pay for it.
That said,here goes 20/12 ga single barrel for home defense.Cheap easy to use you get your money back if you ever want to get rid of it.Next in line,look around for a 870 pump not hard to find in the less than $200 range.
But I Want a Pistol!
Ok but first we had to make sure your safe.
Spend your money on a good Ruger,S&W,Hi-Standard,Colt ect .22cal
Learn to use it
The fact that A is will be easier to learn with this weapon and you will have more more to spend on ammo will help your to get better faster.
By the way Hi-Speed hollow points are not a bad defensive round lots of shock.
6 kmonths from now.You are at a point where you can shoot and more inportantly hit what your shooting at.
You still have your shotgun for home defense and your fun .22 and you still want to go to center fire,have at it you will be,more at ease with firearms and more informed about firearms and better able to make a intelegent choice.
Welcome to the Wonderful "Gun Culture"
:)

[Sheslinger]

As far as handguns go, I would definitely start with a 9 mm. A Ruger would probably be the best deal for the money, otherwise, I second looking at Walther P99.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Sheslinger

P.S. Oh, yes, and before others jump in, good job on convincing your girlfriend to at least try shooting with you!! Since both of you are reasonably new to this, I would definitely hook up with someone from THR who lives near you guys so that the first time you go, someone is there to help with advice and teach range "stuff" (we don't want her to dive under a bench the first time someone next to her shoots).

Invite your girlfriend to come over and browse and/or post here. Check out http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27373.

Later. I am sure I will think of more stuff as soon as I post.

Yep, here it is. Practice with the cheap stuff (Walmart has 100-round packs of 9 mm for $10.96, .40 for $14.95), and once in a blue moon bring your carry/home defense ammo in to shoot, this way you don't spend a whole lot of money on range ammo and still know that you are ok with defensive loads.

[ReadyontheRight]

No one's mentioned this yet, so here goes.

Glocks are fine guns, but there are two major criticisms:

1. The trigger is a little funky. I am very biased because I am used to 1911s and rifles. The Glock trigger kind of goes "clunk" when it breaks. Most triggers break crisply -- often described as breaking a glass rod. Perhaps others here could share their experience learning on a Glock and moving to other triggers.

2. The other (problem?) with Glocks is the fact that the only safety is the trigger. The ingenious trigger design is meant to mimic the inherently safe operation of a revolver, but the standard Glock trigger has a lower trigger weight than a standard revolver's double-action trigger pull. Most accidental discharges of Glocks seem to occur when the owner reaches for the gun and accidently grabs the trigger. The Glock does not offer the lighter trigger pull of a revolver's single action -- which greatly improves accuracy. 1911s and other autoloaders typically have more than one safety which requires that the gun be held in a firing position and a safety be in the "off" position to operate. Again, Glocks are great (especially in 11.43x23 ;) ), but those are the criticisms. Also -- Glocks are popular, so you may be able to find a less trendy, less expensive option.

As far as "why a .22?", shooting a .22 involves minimal recoil, .22 ammo is cheap and .22s are almost all inherently accurate. You learn aiming, trigger control, breath control, etc. without flinching and can send 500 rounds downrange for $6. You will always shoot your .22 as much or more than your bigger guns.

I certainly understand the interest in ONE gun (at least for now :) ). A 9mm Glock, CZ, Ruger, Beretta, etc. will serve you very well. Just be sure to avoid some of the cheaper guns mentioned above.

A S&W or Ruger wheelgun in .357 offers the option of .38 special ammo (about the same power and price as 9mm) for practice and .357 mag (more power -- you can even legally hunt deer in WI at close range with it) for a more powerful load. Used revolvers are usually pretty inexpensive and extremely classy (just take a look at some of Tamara's picture posts in the revolver forum). A wheelgun does not afford you the option of separating your magazine from your gun or keeping the chamber empty for increased safety (unless you keep it hammer down on an empty cylinder and an empty cylinder behind it -- which leave you only 4 shots. This is a good option which I personally use when handgun hunting in heavy brush. I just click to the next cylinder when I set up to wait for deer).

For safe storage, I recommend a combination trigger lock (~$10) for transporting and a small safe for storage at home. These will both keep it safe from inexperienced hands and foil the casual robber. The safest storage is on your person, but you can't do that in WI -- YET.

You can find excellent small handguns in both 9mm and .357 if CCW is in your future.

One final point -- sharing your new interest is great, but please stress the 4 rules if you ever show off your new toy to friends. Guns are merely tools, but a lot of people act very stupidly w/ guns. You are stepping up to a new responsibility.

Welcome to a fun new sport!

[Night20]

Personally, I subscribe to the "first gun should be a .22" club. IMHO they let the shooter focus completely on stance/grip/trigger pull and other issues, without having to worry about recoil and "flash&bang effect" (although thats fun too :) ). You will have a lot to think about during your first 1k+ shots without developing bad habits like flinching.

Like others have said go check out the local shops and ranges. Ask questions...lots of them. Ask saleman1 his opinion on something, then go ask salesman2. You've got a ton of routes you can go as far as what type of gun to purchase, as you can see by all the recomendations. When you talk to the saleman be watchful if he wants to steer you toward one single gun. He should be lining up around half a dozen (or more) for you to see. If he only shows you one and tells you its the perfect thing for you...well he's being a salesman. Seek help elsewere.

Good luck, be safe, and welcome to a wonderful sport.

[BryanP]

Xenophon, you're getting some really good advice here. Advice I wish I'd had before I started down this path. The first time I squeezed the trigger on anything it was a snubby .357. Of course I had picked up a box of full-house .357 magnum rounds to go in it. One box later I had a horrible flinch. I'm still not sure I've gotten rid of it - I'm a self admitted "mediocre at best" shot.

Anyway, the shotgun / .22 pistol combo as a starter is definitely something I'd consider.

[Baba Louie]

a suggestion,

Buy the Boy Scout Merit Badge book on marksmanship, read it committing key points to memory.

go to local range with that limited knowledge, explain to counter staff your desire to learn handguns, rifles and shotguns (whichever) and that you'd like to start with small bore handguns and 30 minutes instruction time. fill out paperwork and rent 1 revolver and 1 semi-auto .22 at first. get a coupla three boxes of ammo, targets, glasses and earmuffs. go into range w/ instructor; listen, then do. repeat. wipe smile off face.

start close (5 yds. max - 3 better), going for longer distances later.

return .22's to counter (after shooting 150 rds min... should take anywhere from 5 - 25 minutes) for 1 .38/.357 revolver and 1 9mm (your choice), more ammo & targets. you may or may not need the instructor if you got the grip/sight picture, follow through, etc. down with the small bores.

report back here your musings on the subject.

develop a plan for acquiring certain "home defensive tools/devices" including accessories.

prioritize.

shop.

fondle.

read.

buy the first.

of many.

report back in.

shoot it.

report back in.

Any firearm at home is better than no firearm at home if you need one.

A .22lr handgun or longun will repel borders as will a single shot 20 ga. and will double duty as target shooting devices. If you've ever watched a woman bust her first clays...over and over and consequently clean your clock...musta been beginners luck...her smile and bragging was awful to bear that weekend :D Anyway, I guarantee you you'll never want to get rid of that cheap single shot 20 ga. if that woman is your S.O., wife or daughter.

Bigger is better and a louder boom means more power and everyone needs either a 9mm or a .45 (juries still out on the .40) or a .38/.357.

new or used, blue or stainless, small to large.

Warning: You are entering an addictive world where things aren't always cheap and one thing leads to another and pretty soon, it'll be holsters, belts, knives, swords, long guns, old guns, new guns, revolvers, semi-auto's, safes, ammunition out the wazoo, gun shows...

But ya gotta take that first step xeno

Savor the moment.

Adios

[Trebor]

Xenophon,

Yes, you found the right website. I typed the URL from memory and remembered it wrong.

Here are some comments/suggestions on some of your items.

1) holster (hrrmm, kydex or leather though??)

For informal range use, you won't need a holster. For the NRA Basic Pistol or Personal Protection in the Home classes you won't need a holster. If you take any other sort of advanced training such as Massad Ayoob's LFI 1 or a class at Gunsite, etc, you will need a good holster. Other than that, if you aren't going to get a CCW permit, you really don't need a holster for having the gun in the house or for trips to the range.

You WILL need a lockable gun case to take the gun to and from the range though. I reccomend the cheap ($5 to $10) plastic cases with the egg crate foam inserts by Docksil (sp?). These do not come with a lock, but you can either put a small luggage lock through the padlock hole in the case, or just put a larger padlock through the handles to lock the case closed. Legally, if you don't have a CCW, you'll need to transport your pistol unloaded, in a locked case in your trunk, with the ammo in a separate container.

If you do buy a holster, buy a good quality holster and a good gun belt to go with it. Avoid the cheapie Nylon holsters by "Uncle Mikes" and others. I really like the Milt Sparks Versa Max II IWB holster, but it's a bit of overkill if you can't carry concealed. Other than that, I've used both leather and Kydex and find leather to be more comfortable. If you go with Kydex, I had EXCELLENT service from Blade Tech when I ordered a holster from them. They shipped it next day air at no extra charge when I needed it for a firearms training class after missing an earlier shipping deadline to get it out to me on time.

2) gun safe (keypad entry?)

I don't have any real opinion here as I'm beyond having a small safe for a single pistol and don't know much about the current options.

3) cleaning stuff (read something about breakfree CLP, good stuff?? is wal-mart or target gonna have stuff I need or do I have to visit mr. gunshop?

I reccomend Hoppe's #9 Powder Solvent and Breakfree CLP for cleaning. You can get these at any gunshop, sporting goods store and at many large chain department stores such as Wal Mart, Meijer or K-Mart. For lubrication I like Tetra Gun Oil and Tetra Gun Grease. I don't want to get into the oil vs. grease Holy Wars, but I'd say to try both and see what works better on your gun. Buy a cheap toothbrush to use on your gun as well. M Pro7 is also a good cleaner that doesn't have the odor associated with Hoppes, but MPro7 is NOT a lubricant so you would still need to lube your gun up after cleaning.

4) ammo (practice and carry (which I assume JHP is the thing

Cheap FMJ ammo is fine for practice. Win White Box is good, cheap and readily available. Any major manufacturer JHP would work for a defensive load. Before you buy a lot of ammo though, buy one box and make sure it runs through your pistol OK. If it works, buy more and try to put 100-200 rounds through you gun without malfunctions before you bet your life on it.

5) night sights?? hrrm, maybe later after I learn to shoot the gun well

It is usually cheaper and more effective to buy the gun with night sights already installed than to add them later. Of course, you may not want to spend the money on night sights until you know that this is "the pistol" for you. Remember, they do have a limited life span before they go dim.

6) more magazines..how many do you usually load up and take with to range?

You'll really only need one or two mags for the range. I reccomend a minimum of three factory mags for any defensive use gun because mags can go bad after time or be damaged. More than that is nice, but does take cash to obtain that could be used for other things, like training.

7) saf-t-lok (I'm eyeing the glock so I think that could help safety)

Ok, I don't know how to say this politely, so I'll just be blunt. If you think you need the Saf-T-Lok to be safe with the Glock, I REALLY think you should consider a different pistol for a first gun. I don't have anything against Glocks, but personally I think they are better suited to a more experienced shooter than they are a newbie. Others will disagree with me on this, so take my opinion for what it is worth.

(BTW, I'd have the same kind of problem of you wanted a 1911 but weren't comfortable with "cocked and locked" and wanted to carry it hammer down on an empty chamber. If you have a lack of confidence on your ability to handle a particular firearm the way it is designed to be carried, take that as a sign that it might not be the right gun for you at this time.)


Anything I'm missing, or recommendations?

Yes, buy a range bag to cart all your gear to and from the range. You'll want earplugs, ear muffs (WEAR BOTH), eye protection, cleaning patches, solvents and lube, cleaning rods, jags and brushes, masking tape, a staplegun to tack up targets, Zip Loc baggies for your empty brass, bug spray and sunscreen for outdoor ranges, and room for at least a couple boxes of ammo. If you are going to take alot of ammo on any one trip, keep it in a separate box to keep from tearing the handle off your range bag (been there, done that).

I like the small canvas range bags with the six pockets on the outside. The pockets are designed for extra mags, but I stick my cleaning supplies and earplug in the pockets.

[ReadyontheRight]

I forgot to mention -- Get the TWO gun Gunsafe vault with the finger-impression keypad. You will quickly or eventually get another gun and the two gun version fits two guns plus magazines, speedloaders and maybe even a third gun. $169 vs. $149 for the single gun version at my local Galyan's.

[ReadyontheRight]

Good range bag and other advice Trebor!

[xenophon]

Ok, so after reading all this good advise, I finally got the nerve to go down the the local gun shop, just 15 minutes away.

I drive up, walk in, and look at all the cases with nice shiny guns. Having glocks in mind, I walk up to that case. A few minutes later, the assistant (wearing a NRA member shirt) comes over and asks if I needed help. So I go on to explain that I'm looking for a first gun, I've never handled one in my life, or ever fired one. He asks what I'm looking to use the gun for (self defense, target shooting, etc) so of course self defense is my goal. I also asked about .22's, but he said that while those are good to learn on, they aren't good self defense guns. I bring up the glock 19 so he shows it to me, and explains all the features of it, lets me hold it, etc. Now I came to the store with glock in mind just because I've done so much research and reading about it, it's just what I want. He didn't try to sell me anything else, he just listened to my questions and answered them as they came.

So after he shows me how easy it is to field strip (which I was amazed at just how simple it was) I asked if he had a g19 for me to try out. He only had the g17, but he said he owns a G19 himself, and went to the back and came out with it. I told him I never have been to a range before and that I was flat out clueless as far as how to load a magazine, so he showed me at the desk how to put the cartridges in, and of course he went over all the safety procedures. He even waived the range fee and even the gun rental fee since I was using his own!!! I just had to purchase some safety glasses and some ammo and ear plugs and a couple targets. It was pretty funny when he asked me what kind of targets I wanted. I was like, "uuuhhh, ummm, well, what you got???" so he gave me one that resembles a person, or otherwise known as the "politically incorrect targets" :)

So off I go downstairs to the range. It was an indoor range, 5 spots, and it had a nice electronic targeting system. Just clip target on, and press the away button to desired range. Ok, easy enough. Now I take my magazine and take a few minutes trying to figure out how to get those cartridges in there again (he showed me but of course I forgot) but it wasn't too hard, 2 mintutes later I got the hang of it. Had trouble keeping track of how many I had in the mag, then I looked at the ammo box and saw it had 5 to each column, so 2 columns makes the mag full (10)! (yes, the simple things amuse me) Ok, mag full so I put in into the gun, pull the slide back as the salesman showed me, and the slide goes forward and gun is ready to go.

I'm the only one down there in the range which made me more relaxed and I felt like I could take my time. I got my grip (I'm left handed), aimed the dots together, put finger on trigger, pulled, and BAM! Holy #%@% was that awesome, I even hit really close to where I was aiming. I would say target was about 8 yards out. I finished the mag, noticing the slide stayed open when the last shot was fired. I had always wondered when I would know when the mag was empty....I figured you either had to keep mental count, or if you pulled the trigger and it just went click, then it was empty. But that's cool the slide stays open. So I pulled out he ammo, loaded the mag again, and went back at it. Never having shot before, I didn't think the recoil of the 9mm was bad at all, but i could sure feel the power though :) I was hitting pretty close to center on my target I moved target further out to like 15/20 yards and I still was hitting pretty consistent in the middle, not bad!! So after a few more rounds and a big smile on my face, I take the mag out, quadruple check that the chamber is empty, and put everything back into the case, and walk upstairs. First words outta my mouth were "I'll take one!".

Filled out the paper work for my Glock 19, paid up, and I was all set. Picked up some cleaning supplies and they even showed me how to clean the gun, what parts need what on them and how much, and how often. I also asked about basic firearms classes, and they said they do have those every month. Then I was on my way out the door, feeling energized about my accomplishment. I gotta say, you've people on this board were a great help, and I gotta hand it to the guy who helped me at the gun store, he made my first visit a good one so chaulk one up for the gun owners side.

x

[45Badger]

Where are you in Wisconsin? Anywhere near Delavan/Lake Geneva? Dam Road Gun Shop is great shop, great folks, great selection. I moved to PA year ago, and still have not found as good a shop locally.

If you ever get into 1911s, the Border Pistol League has several clubs along the WI/IL border. Friendly group of pretty good Bullseye shooters. Those guys showed me a lot about shooting, aiming, reloading, etc.

For HD, you can't beat a shotgun. Get a "cuff" lock and mount it in a closet for when you're out of town.

[ReadyontheRight]

Glock 19 is a great choice. As is getting into firearms with safety first in mind. Way to do your research Xenophon! Shoot safely and enjoy!

[xenophon]

45Badger: Im in Milwaukee. I'm gonna consider a shotgun as my next purchase..maybe in a few months :) I supposed I couldn't shoot one of those at a regular pistol range though eh? hrrrm. But I agree that a shotgun could only help for SD.

x

[Sheslinger]

It really depends on the range. The ranges in TN let you shoot shotguns in pistol ranges, no problem. In MD, however, certain ranges would not let you shoot shotguns.

I would just call the specific range you have in mind and ask them. Shotguns are the best home defense guns and my favorite guns ever. Period.

Congratulations on the first one - now remember that they are related to rabbits.

Sheslinger

[xenophon]

"Congratulations on the first one - now remember that they are related to rabbits."

Sheslinger: Yeah, that's what I've heard. I'm glad I'm not married yet so I can let my "rabbits" multiply while I've got a chance :D

x

[slh02]

I am glad that you took it upon yourself to do what you did. Like I said, most ranges/gunshops are decent to new guys (as long as you are over 21, lol). Seems like that guy went well over and beyond the call of duty though.

Although the trigger and I dont agree, the glock 19 is a great first gun and you wont regret the purchase! Congrats and hopefully it will be only one of many to come!

By the way, do you have waiting periods in your state or did you get to take it home right away?

[gamegod86]

It has been mentioned a couple of times here, so I thought I would relate my experience.

My name is Todd, and I am a Glock-o-holic. I have 6 or 7 of them.

Just as an experiment, I bought a Saf-t-Block. (I think this was what you were referring to in your post regarding equipment, Xenophon)

(a saf-t-blok is a plastic piece that tucks in behind the trigger on a Glock. It is very unnoticeable. It also prevents the trigger from moving rearward)

As a matter of fact, a Saf-T- Block is so unobtrusive that it is VERY EASY to forget it is there. I had an experience where I came home to an open door on my house, and cleared the house with a gun that would not have fired because of the Saf-t-block. If you train with it, it can be pretty good, and will pop out easily with your finger as you draw. You just have to practice with it. A LOT.

The main safety with a Glock is the one between your ears. A Glock will NOT fire unless the trigger is pulled.

Get a holster that completely covers the trigger guard. That will be sufficient. Keep it in the holster all the time. Use a holster that offers good weapon retention. For the winter, I use a Fobus paddle holster. Many people criticize the Fobus, but I am happy with mine. It may not be the best choice for you since you cannot carry legally.

Much other good advice has been given on this thread. As to the .22 suggestion, I am an experienced shooter of about 20 years experience, and I intend to get a .22 conversion for one of my Glocks. It will be an invaluable tool to master trigger control.

Another suggestion on trigger control. Dry fire practice. Unload and show clear. Check again. Move ammo to another room. (ALL the ammo) come back and check for empty chamber again. (get the point?)

Put a dime on the front sight. Squeeze the trigger. You should be able to squeeze the trigger without dropping the dime from the front sight.

Another idea (although expensive) is a laser sight. DO NOT rely on it for general purpose shooting. About the ONLY thing the average person needs a laser for is that it is VERY easy to see if you are jerking the trigger when you are using the laser. Shoot as if you do not have the laser on, and have a friend watch the dot right before the "bang."

Another suggestion that I would like to encourage you to consider. You have taken care of the "hardware" side with the purchase of your pistol. The next investment would be to get help on the "software" side. Get some training. Get training that has several good references. Learn about your trainer's experience. Also, be "trainable." Listen carefully to an heed the advice of your instructor. (not implying anything negative at you, it is just a point that is important to make)

There is a lot of knowledge here. There is also a lot of Glock specific knowledge on the "General Glocking" forum at www.glocktalk.com.

Congrats on your new hobby/ self-preservation/ constitutional right.

Todd

[xenophon]

slh02: There's a 48 hour waiting period here in WI. I supposed that's better than 5 days, but I wish there weren't any waiting time as long as you pass an Instant background check.

gamegod86: yeah, I was referring to the Saf-T-Block (did I say lock before?) anyways, yeah, I was reading that it pops out with just the flick of a finger when drawing, so it doesn't take any time away from draw time. I definitely wasn't looking at this device because I was afraid of the glock trigger, just simply you can't hurt safety with something like that. If I ever do get one, I'll keep your experience in mind about clearing the house with the block in place! Funny you mentioned that .22 conversion kit. The guy at the shop mentioned that when I questioned him about another barrel for the glock 19, and Im seriously gonna consider that in the next month or two, since I've heard .22's can be so fun to fire also. Now onto my seeking training quest.........

[MeekandMild]

xenophon, a Glock takes about 10 seconds to take apart, just take off the slide. Advantage Arms makes a .22 conversion kit for the Glock 19 which will go onto it in another 10 seconds. Total of 20 seconds to turn it into a .22 target pistol.

http://www.advantagearms.com/conversion_kit.html


I agree with the comments above regarding .22 and BB guns for early practice but with the Glock 19 one can have both a .22 and a home defence weapon.

[Zundfolge]

You mentioned the Glock 23 ... thats nice, but I prefer my Steyr M40 (same size gun only beter ergonomics and cooler looking ;) ).

But I would recommend 9mm over .40S&W even though I shoot a .40.

9mm is cheaper then .40 and if you spend a little extra and get a good box of +p+ 9mm you will be at the same power as most .40, so if you still like the Glock go for the G19 instead of the 23 (same gun only 9mm).


As for the ".22 for a first gun" crowd ... I agree that if you want to become a competition shooter it would be best to start with a .22. But if self defense is your primary concern, then a 9mm will serve you well as both a self defense gun and a range gun. (if self defense wasn't one of your main concerns I'd agree with the .22 guys).



The most important thing however, is to wrap your mitts around a few different guns and burn up a few boxes of ammo ... only until you've held and fired a gun can you tell for sure if that gun is for you.


Take up bedlamite on his offer ... the best thing in the world for a new shooter is an experienced shooter to show them the ropes.


Most of all, have fun with this and don't focus too much on the SD stuff right now ... the more fun it is the more shooting you'll do and the better prepaired you will be for SD.

Oh ... and welcome to THR :)

[Trisha]

Beware of cute girls who shoot better than you do!

:what:

Admit your ignorance! Get a basic class, and above all, for Goddess' sake, be safe!

Remember, it's not about what you own (or can afford to buy), it's about you, and what's between your ears.

Trisha

[Kalvan]

Congratulations, xenophon!

[Trebor]

Congragulations on your purchase!

A Glock wouldn't have been what I'd reccomend, but it is a good quality gun and should serve you well. I do like the feel of the 19's the best of the Glocks myself, in my limited experience.

Now take that basic pistol class and you'll be all set. Be sure to check back and let us know how you are doing and, of course, let us know if you have any more questions.

Good shooting!

Trebor

[Baba Louie]

Excellant choice.

The G-19 was my first glock. I swear I don't know how I ended up with 5.

It is a perfect sized handgun for plinking and defense.

Buy some 15 rd magazines now, before the 94/04 expanded AWB comes back and makes everything over 10 illegal, get a Sidearmor Kydex holster IWB or OWB and a good belt.

By ammo.

Practice.

Those .22 kits look pretty nice.

Adios

check out www.glocktalk.com now that the dark side has you

[xenophon]

Baba Louie: So 15 round mags are available? I had read something about that ban and thought the limit expired in 2004. What a very stupid law.

Anyone know the reasoning for the limit? Did something happen to cause that? IMHO, 5 rounds isn't going to make much of a difference and I'm sure most of you would agree.

x

[Baba Louie]

xeno,

I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek because right now you can still purchase hi-cap magazines unless you reside in CA.

I'd suggest a few of the 15 and a couple of the Glock 17 if your budget allows. Price them and see what I mean.

Only non LEO/military are forced to purchase the neutered magazines or older hi-caps due to the 94 Clinton/HCI act.

And remember, its for the children.

To my way of thinking the G-19 feels weird with a full 10 rd. magazine in it... not quite heavy enough. Balance is... off. It is easier to carry all day tho' so I guess if you're given lemons, find some way to make lemonade. Or buy a G-26. (I mean who really needs all that ammunition if you're a law-abiding citizen, right?)

As to the 04/94 AWB, I'll be a pessimist and predict that more (not less) intrusive actions will result... it being for the children of course.

Have fun shooting that new glock. Stay safe. Watch out for children... they take the fun out of everything.

Adios

[xenophon]

For the children, of course!! You weren't kidding about those prices for the higher cap magazines. Must be the demand of them that drives the price up. Though I did see a promag metal lined 15-round mag for the G19 for $35 brand new, but I've heard those might be crap (good for practice maybe, but not as good for home SD or carry?)

Another one, $85 for a hi-cap mag, jeez, I'll stick with the 10rd's for a bit to make sure the criminals don't get the upper hand :rolleyes:

[gamegod86]

Xeno, for a Glock, save yourself some headache. Do NOT buy any aftermarket mags for Glocks.

ONLY use factory mags. 10 rd mags are about $16 or so. 15 or 17s are nice and useful if the SHTF, but for the $$$, I would stick with the 10s. (unless you just gotta have the extra rounds.)

Whatever you do, only use Glock factory mags.

If you use aftermarket, you will be doing this -->:banghead:

my opinion,

Todd

[HBK]

If you get hi cap mags, make sure they are drop free. The non-drop free ones are useless.

[xenophon]

Yeah I suppose I don't really need more than 10. And what's the difference between drop and non drop? I'll take the easiest logical answer and guess that drop mags really do drop to the ground when the release is pressed and the non-drop don't?

Another thing I've seen is that some of these mags have "counters" on the back of the mag to let you know how many rounds you have loaded in. Any advantages (besides the obvious of your count) or disadvanges to those? I'm guessing that the counters are just little holes.

x

[gamegod86]

The current consensus is FML (fully metal lined) and NFML (non fully...)

IIRC, the FMLs are "drop free" because the metal lining prevents the mag body from expanding against the magazine channel inside the grip. Also, IIRC, they are called "drop free" because they will drop out while full. (when the release is pressed)

The technical term for the "little holes" are "witness holes"

Ain't it fun learning a new language?:D

Don't really worry to much about the words. Concentrate on proficiency.

[mattd]

About gun locks.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35656

[Cosmoline]

I'd strongly suggest NOT getting a Glock or any other semi auto pistol as a first firearm. They're tricky, and most negligent discharges happen with them. It's much more difficult to keep a little pistol pointed in a proper direction, and not easy to tell if it's loaded. It's also easy for a newbie to chamber a round by accident, then set the thing off in a panic.

I'd strongly suggest getting a nice used .22 LR double action revolver with a long 6" or better barrel or, better yet, skip the shortguns and get a nice starter rifle like a CZ 452 Lux in .22. Handguns are inaccurate backup weapons at best. I've seen plenty of newbie shooters walk away greatly disappointed because they can't hit squat with a shortgun. What they don't know is, almost nobody can hit squat with the shortguns. Even if you're ultimate goal is to have a CCW weapon, start with long guns to learn the discipline of safe shooting.

[gamegod86]

Cosmo: While I agree with some of the assertions in your previous post, would you mind backing up your assertion that most ADs occur with Glocks?

(edited in process...or did I misunderstand? Could you have been saying that most ADs/NDs occur with semiautomatics in general?)

I also do not see how one could "chamber a round by accident." In my experience, you pretty much have to intentionally chamber a round in all of the semiautos I have seen/ used.

Not flaming you, just asking you to clarify and point to some verification of your assertions.

Thanks
Todd

BTW: he already bought a G19

[ReadyontheRight]

I have to agree with Cosmoline on this one. Pistols are fun and probably a very good fit for Xenophon's situation, but you use your pistol to get to your rifle. More accurate = more fun and more dangerous to the bad guys.

www.odcmp.com

G19 is a great start! Enjoy! and take your GF out shooting!

[xenophon]

Cosmo, I appreciate your concern and opinion, but I think those that go into this with safety as #1 shouldn't have to worry about guns pointed in safe directions because it's a simple rule to follow. Even a newbie such as myself was keeping an eagle eye on the salesman in which direction the muzzle was pointed. I guess never having handled or seen one before, I think I was giving it more respect than anyone else in the store. Now I can't say the same for other newbies who don't prioritize safety, and your point does hold ground, but I think regardless if the gun is semi, revolver, rifle or what, the same safety rules apply. Just like when learning to drive a car, whether it's a stick shift or automatic, same safety rules of the road apply...and while one car might be harder to drive than the other, as long as you keep focused on the goal and get proper training, I think any car (or in my case, gun) will do as long as you treat it with great respect (And use your brain)

ReadyontheRight,
Ok, so now you guys got me interested in the rifles and such, so I'll see what I can do in that department :) And i'll let you know as soon as my gf agrees to go down to the range....i'm gonna bring a camera for that event if that ever happens!

[mattd]

I think a auto loading pistol is the best choice, because you shouldn't be so ignorant towards guns so you would have to have a revolver to be safe.

[cslinger]

You asked about aftermarket magazines for the Glock and were told by Gamegod86 not to buy anything but factory magazines for the Glock. He is correct but let me expand on this.

Since nobody who comes here ever buys just one gun let's get the magazine issue out into the open.

Never buy any aftermarket magazines for most major firearms except for Mec-Gar or ACT-MAG. ACT-MAG is making 1911 and SIG P220 magazines. Mec-Gar is an aftermarket manufacturer that actually makes the factory magazines for most of the big companies.

The exception to this rule is 1911s. Here some of the best magazines are aftermarket such as Wilson Combat.

As a rule, stay away from promag, USA, etc. Same goes for rifles. If it is a military type rifle such as an AR-15 or M1A or AK-47. Buy only military contract magazines. Actually most AK mags will do you just fine.

Anyway just thought I would save you the headache of buying the cheaper magazine.

Chris

[xenophon]

mmmM just picked up my pistol today after my 2 day waiting period....well, I would have had it yesterday if I didn't work evening shift. Time for the first cleaning (store said just clean the barrel and *lightly* oil a couple parts) Ah a thing of beauty, check her out, my first born :)

[gamegod86]

Unless you just want to, I wouldn't bother cleaning it until you shoot a few hundred rounds.

I shot over 1k through my G34 before it got to where I just couldn't stand it anymore. No problems. (to be fair, I had 1 jam, but it was because I didn't seat the mag fully. my fault, not gun problem)

Enjoy...and practice a lot. It will be worth the effort.

Todd

[cslinger]

Ah a thing of beauty

I am happy for ya and all but let's not get out of control here. :D


Just kidding, I am sure you will have many, many years of service out of your new pistola. Remember the best accessory is ammo.

Although your Glock should pretty much feed rocks even dirty I would humbly suggest cleaning after every range session for two reasons.

1)A clean well maintained gun is a reliable gun. It's just a little extra piece of mind.

2)It gives you a chance to closely inspect all the parts to make sure they are wearing correctly and working as they should. Glocks are spectacular firearms but even a Mercedes gets a poorly built part from time to time.

Enjoy it and stay safe.

Chris

[Cosmoline]

"Cosmo: While I agree with some of the assertions in your previous post, would you mind backing up your assertion that most ADs occur with Glocks?

(edited in process...or did I misunderstand? Could you have been saying that most ADs/NDs occur with semiautomatics in general?)"

I'm not picking on Glocks alone. Glocks are better than most because they don't have a hair trigger for second shots.

[Cosmoline]

"but you use your pistol to get to your rifle."

That's the key right there. I'm sure you'll be fine with the Glock, and you've clearly done your homework. But I think you may have a breakthrough if you shoot a rifle after some time on the pistole. I know I did :D