Things I'd like to see....

[Dave McCracken]

On shotguns....

First, decent triggers right out of the box. It's amazing what a good trigger does to scores or bag. Since we do not want a surprise break when shotgunning, but the thing to go off at the proper nanosecond during the swing, a clean, crisp sub 4 lb pull is to be cherished.While we're at it, let's get them 1/8" or so wider for even better control.

Second, like the 391 Beretta, an easily used set of shims and spacers to fit the shotgun to the shotgunner. These would be of immense benefit for those of us who fall outside the center of the graph physically.

Third, a longer forcing cone from the makers. Very few of us still use 1950s style ammo. Let's get the cones adjusted to plastic wads and get better patterns and a touch less kick. 1 1/2" oughta do the trick.

Fourth, the makers should include info with the shotgun that indicates when PM and/or small parts replacement should occur. While many shotguns are not shot heavily, some are. Knowing when to install new O rings, locking lugs, springs, etc, can turn many fine shooters into Forever guns. I admired a Beretta O/U last night, a higher end shotgun with replacable shoulders, lugs, and hinge pins. Made in the 70s, it had some adjustments made at the 45K mark, and was still going and going and going like a little pink drumbeating rabbit.

Fifth, more widely available superlight ammo.In 12 gauge this would mean 7/8 oz, 3/4 oz in the 20 guage, with velocities of 1100-1200 FPS. These will aid new shooters no end, and will often serve as well or better as the heavier stuff. They have plenty of utility for experienced shotgunners also, who may have flinching problems or just appreciate less kick and noise. And since they'd contain less shot and powder, they could be offered for a little less by the ammo companies and still sold at a profit.

Sixth, instead of the antiquated, confusing and nigh useless Dram Equivalent system, how about the ammo makers just marking the boxes with the speed of the load? That is a much needed simplification, after all, how many of us still load Black Powder AND bulk Smokeless or Semi Smokeless? And marking the antimony percentage in the shot could help us pick the best load for a mission.

Seventh, how about the choke tube makers marking the tube with actual inside diameter, instead of Cylinder, Improved Modified, ad nauseam? We'd still need to pattern, but we'd have a better starting place for working with a given load and range. While we're at it, let's get the makers to start off the sets of chokes that come with many tubed barrels with Cylinder. Modern ammo (and a decent length cone) make many loads pattern like they're going through a choke one full increment tighter. A 3 tube set in 12 gauge that runs .000, .015 and .025 would have more utility for many folks than IC,Mod and Full. And Cylinder is good out to 25 yards these days with the best ammo.

And Eighth, I'd LOVE to see each experienced shotgunner teach one newbie the joys of shotgunning this year. That'd be one more point of light against the darkness,one more knowledgeable person not buying the Brady Bunch Caca del Toro, one more vote. Need I say more?

Questions, comments, donations?

[C.R.Sam]

Good list Dave.

Triggers...
Long ago, good triggers were common even on inexpensive shotguns.
Nowadays, good triggers are relatively uncommon on expensive shotguns.

Sam

[WJR]

I am really confused on the forcing cone issue. Is this upgrade done by a lot of shotgunners? If so, why wouldn't the manufacturers go ahead and do this or at least have it as an option?

WJR

[dfariswheel]

My #1 shotgun upgrade would be:
A new, modern redesign of the shotgun SHELL.

The limiting factor in shotgun development is the antiquated shell. We're trying to build 21st Century guns, with 19th Century ammo. Imagine trying to build an M-16 chambered for the .45 Colt revolver cartridge.

The present shell is very little different than the wax paper cased, brass headed, paper wad shell of the 1870's. Instead of paper and brass, we now have plastic and brass-plated steel, and plastic shot cups.

A modern shell should be a true rimless design, with possibly a one piece, all plastic shell similar to the old Wanda of the 1960's.
Since it would be a rimless case, the rim could be made thicker, and plastic would do fine for this.

A redesigned modern shell would be much easier to feed through box magazines and we could have a reliable box fed HD gun. Rimless cases are much easier and more reliable to feed in any action.

The redesigned case could be a smaller gage and still have the same shot weight. Reducing the gage to perhaps something like a 16 gage would mean the small diameter case would increase a box magazine capacity, but it would still fire the same amount of shot at the same velocity as a 12 gage.

[Dave McCracken]

Amen, Sam. It's a sad situation when a 50 year old hardware store single has a better trigger off the shelf than a modern $1K+ auto or double.

WJR, having the forcing cone lengthened may be the biggest aftermarket mod done, after triggers alone. As to why the makers don't do this, IMO it's a combination of inertia and litigation panic. And few of us, relatively speaking, care that much about it.

dfaris, some good points. But right now, we can use the stuff mentioned. It'd take YEARS, maybe decades, to develop new ammo and the shotguns to use it.

[sm]

Dave -good list.

Sam- nailed the trigger, thanks.

dfarris-,
I hear you but The "Active" brand shotshell was all plastic, and didn't fly either, yes I reloaded some , had no problems. I think the problem was/is the mis-conceptions of shotguns and shotshells. On shells the "mindset" is still " look at that tall brass-gotta be better. Or the idea more, faster, bigger, longer, heavier..<.insert favorite creative marketing word here>

ME...agree with Dave and Sam, we used to have quality, now its quanity to fit J.Q.Customer, that is 5' 10" has a 30" sleeve and lawyer triggers, and they'll buy it regardless of fit and finish such and such article said it was "tactical" cha ching...ring it up.

Gun Fit. in addition to Dave's suggestion, c'mon people give us the recoil pad with rounded toe/heel, and inside edges...20 + years ago we learned this trick. We need in addition to being able to adjust stocks, we need youth stocks , and different combs if need from get-go, then fine tune 'em. We have small persons -regardless of age and gender.

If you build a Quality Machined pc, in blue and wood It will sell...I would anyway...I'll take a shucker, semi, heck even the old Beretta single shot take down jobbie was a real nice gun!!

oh well, just another wish from a CWG...

[HSMITH]

I concur very much on all but the trigger part. I am a hardcore "masher/slapper/mangler" of the trigger, I honestly cannot tell the difference between a 4 pound and 12 pound trigger on a shotgun if I am concentrating on the target . We all have our likes and dislikes, on a shotgun I could care less what the trigger is like. I have triggers ranging from a super crisp 4 pounder to a "chicken bone" 14 pounder with tons of creep.

#8 on the list is THE most important folks........

[Dave McCracken]

73, pads have come a long way, and still have miles to go.

I've mentioned before a little French/Belgian SxS I had, weight 6 lbs 5 oz. It shot quite nicely with AA Heavy Target 1 1/8 oz loads, even though it was light for that load by the Rule of 96. No pad, just a checkered butt that was shaped to fit the cup nigh perfectly. Measuring LOP was interesting, it was 1/4" longer on one side than the other, IIRC. Since then, I've sculpted a couple pads with a belt sander, and found rounding the inside edge and toe improve kick tolerance and may aid consistency in the mount.

H, the fact that you shoot well with heavy triggers speaks well for your eye hand co-ordination, and your committment. But, I'll wager the usual flagon of mead you do your best shooting with decent triggers. Pass shooting doves will be a good test of this.

And thanks for mentioning #8. It pays to prosyletize!

[sm]

Yes #8 by all means, I agree.

Dave , oh goody, I can now point to you when people think I"m the only "weird person" whom whittles on stuff...like recoil pads. :D

"hey your guns recoil pad ain't even..."
Yep, my shoulder pocket ain't either. :p
"the toe ,heel and inside edges been "cut" on too"
Never leave a shotgun alone with a belt sander, they do weird stuff left alone together in a room :)

Then thats when I wonder when they gonna buy me that soda I won...:p

[El Tejon]

Each one, teach one.:)

I second the motion for education.

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks, guys. That #8 was last but certainly not least.

As for pads, tinkering can be fun, oft improves one's scores or bag, and maybe helps get the odd unbought soda.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

I'm up for #8 as well. ;)

- pdmoderator

[Dave McCracken]

Amen. I'm off to PGC for a few hours to shoot a bit of trap. And if there's a newbie there that could use a bit of guidance, I'll be happy to help.

[Detritus]

something i found myself wishing for a few years ago (and may wish for again in the forseeable future) is a "youth" sized gun in 12ga, more specifically an 870 so configed. i want a gun that will fit my Step-daughter that i can put fairly light-recoiling ammo (like the winchester "featherlite" or whatever it's called now) in to get her to start shooting and not be so afraid of shotguns (she's afraid of the recoil, adn right now equates LOUD to "kickls like a mule")

i also figure that such a gun would fill a niche in the market for the smaller statured/framed adult shooters out there, and would be easier to transition (through new stock etc) to a "gun like the parent(s) use" as a kid grew.


not an avid shotgunner at the moment and may never be but this is what i've found i have had a want/need for. ~shrug~

[TrapperReady]

#8 is a beautiful thing. I've seen people who have never had any experience with firearms get hooked in an afternoon of informal clay shooting. Once they get that first hit and see a puff of orange dust, it's all over.

You take them, instruct them in a polite and friendly manner about the Rules. Stress safety all along the way, and then let them have fun. They'll see that guns aren't like they see in the movies, and gun owners aren't like the nutjobs they see on the evening news.

I'd say, take at least one newbie along each year. Try to double that (or more if possible) during election years. ;)

[Dave McCracken]

Detritus, IMO Remington thinks the new shooter question is adequately handled by the 20 gauge YE series.

Trouble is, the shorter stock means a smaller pad, so not as much surface area to spread out those ft.-lbs. The YE here has some recoil with 7/8 oz loads and stout kick with 1 oz. The few ounces lighter weight hardly justifies buying another shotgun.

Hogue's cadet stock is one approach, another to cut a standard utility grade stock to length and install an original or aftermarket pad without trimming it down. It'll look odd, but work well.

In your shoes I'd get a standard Express, do the stock as above, and load up some superlights, something about 3/4 or 7/8 oz at about 1100 FPS.

TR, you're so right. The rush of having a student hit that first one and smile is wonderful.

[RandyB]

For us left handers.

Garand type safety
bottom ejection or ejector on the left side. (ithaca/ browning)
A 20" barrel with screw in chokes

[Dave McCracken]

Garand safety? Funny, I had mentioned them to a couple shotgun designers recently.

[45auto]

This may be a bit off target, but I'd like to see an American company produce an O/U line of shotguns that competes with Browning and Beretta in price and quality, but with service levels and options that rival some of the more expensive brands.

It would have to be a smaller company, of course, but with enough "smarts" and CNC fancy machines I think it could be done. Look at Kimber and Kahr, for example.

Being superstitious, the new company name would start with a "K". ;)

[RandyB]

Garand safety? Funny, I had mentioned them to a couple shotgun designers recently.



Great! Let us know if something is likely to come down the pike.

[Dave McCracken]

While not sworn to secrecy, I'm not telling yet. One designer is a friend, and both designs are way off from production.

45auto, Kolar makes top quality target shotguns, and have gotten a great rep for adjustments and service. Every stock is fitted to the particular shooter. POI adjusts from flat to 100% over.

Prices? Starting at $8K. Fancy wood and engraving is more. Through the kindness of a fellow trapshooter at PGC, Got to fire a shot off from his. Powdered it just like with my 870 TB....

Gee, how many DMMUs in a $10K shotgun?

[45auto]

Yes, I forgot about Kolar.

I have seen the Kolars, very nice guns. It seems they employed the better designs from several makers into one gun.

That's a good start. We need some some others, perhaps in some different price ranges.

I have owned, and still do, some of the 'expensive' O/U's, but I bought them when they were at half or less than what they are now. I realize adjusting for inflation, wages, etc, the $6,000 to 8,000 range guns may be "in-line" with the old prices- but it's still a shock.

It's like paying $1.80 for gas, it may even be cheaper than adjusted prices compared to 15 years ago, but it still irritates me. Perhaps that's a sign of age. :)

[Dave McCracken]

US gun makers have it rough, and I doubt any new ones will start up besides the "Bespoke" style of high end guns.

Another BB this AM told me that the Alferman Bros have an O/U in production. They've been making top end trap singles for a while. The new O/U has the barrels and monobloc machined out of one piece of steel. Prices start at $14K.

Kimber has an O/U, the Augusta IIRC. Made in Italy.

[gearbox]

How about shorter shells in measurements of millmeters? 70mm is fine, but how about 60 or 55mm low recoil 00 loads? Could still fit a healthy charge and several pellets, but an additional 1 or 2 cartridges in the tube. It'd be get for #8 when doing a leisurely bit of skeet practice.

Also, how about a pump or autoloader designed for speedloaders? A bit of extra material for quick alignment may be an improvement.

[Dave McCracken]

I'd suggest 2 1/2" ammo, but some repeaters have troubles feeding shorter stuff.

Also, one auto design I've had input on has a removeable mag tube so that one can reload 4 at a time, swap SP loads, and the mags are reloadable just like other designs.