blow torch, water and brass cases


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Eb1
April 23, 2008, 09:45 PM
I just saw a commercial with ol'man potterfield (no disrespect), and he was heating cases with a torch while the other half was in water.

any idea what this is about?

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taliv
April 23, 2008, 09:54 PM
he's attempting to anneal the cases. he wants to make the necks softer w/o changing the metal around the head of the case in order to get more life out of them. brass hardens as it is worked (fired, resized) and the necks eventually split


and by "attempting" i mean he's probably accomplishing nothing

Mt Shooter
April 23, 2008, 10:40 PM
He is annealing them, once they get to a certain temp you knock it over into the water I believe is how it works. Not sure how you tell what the temp is unless he is looking for a color change or something.

74sharps
April 23, 2008, 10:56 PM
Color is what is being watched. I've been looking into that same thing for my .41LC. Brass runs a bit more than I care to pay and can be fire formed from .38SPL. easy enough.

Eb1
April 23, 2008, 11:04 PM
Thanks, everyone.

I wonder if that is why some of my PRVI Partisan and others are different colors sometimes.

taliv
April 23, 2008, 11:06 PM
yeah, lots of new brass is annealed and has a odd discoloration around the neck.

i'd consider this before doing the "knock it over in water" method. http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

mrkubota
April 23, 2008, 11:10 PM
:)
...to slow on the keyboard for me...

kelbro
April 23, 2008, 11:16 PM
ALL new bottleneck rifle brass is annealed. Some manufacturers just polish it before they package it.

Annealing, like a lot of things, can do more harm than good without the proper tools.

qajaq59
April 24, 2008, 07:01 AM
It's not hard to do, but if you're going to start annealing, read up on it and practice on some scrap brass before attacking your good cases. It takes a little knowledge and practice to get it done right.

redneck2
April 24, 2008, 07:21 AM
Go to Varmint Al's site to find out how it's done.

IIRC, most all commercial cases are annealed before their first loading. On some military brass and commercial brass in very large calibers, you'll see the heat marks on the brass.

I hand form brass for my .357 Herrett and anneal it. Pretty easy to do.

Floppy_D
April 24, 2008, 08:14 AM
Good article, taliv.

jmorris
April 24, 2008, 10:24 AM
A friend of mine uses this technique on 300 Weatherby cases. Using handheld propane torch not Oxy/Act. As above, in 1” of water, heat to color change and tip as you are just annealing the neck and shoulder. He clams cases last over twice as long when annealed every other loading.

rcmodel
April 24, 2008, 10:44 AM
That's the way I have done it for about 40 some years.

I very seldom anneal anything anymore, but used too a lot when using GI 30-06 brass to make several smaller calibers.

Heat to light red and tip over in the water.

Contrary to some folks opinion, it works just fine.

Without it, case loss is unacceptable when re-forming or fire-forming 30-06 & .308 to many other calibers.

With it, every case is a good one when you get done.

rcmodel

cracked butt
April 24, 2008, 11:40 AM
Just hold the case in your fingers and heat it with a propane torch until the neck discolors down to the shoulder. It doesn't need to be water cooled to annel the brass.

HJ857
April 24, 2008, 01:40 PM
For easy annealing get some of these.

http://www.markingpendepot.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=268

At whatever temp range you think is best. Some folks think 650 degrees is right, some say 700 degrees.

Put the casing in some sort of holder that you can use in a power drill or screwdriver. Apply some of the Tempilstik to the neck then heat with a propane torch until the wax melts (This is usually around 8 seconds, give or take a couple), then tip into water to prevent heat from moving the the base of the case.

Rapid cooling of brass does not adversely affect it, so no worries about that.

TurboFC3S
April 24, 2008, 02:32 PM
Just hold the case in your fingers and heat it with a propane torch until the neck discolors down to the shoulder. It doesn't need to be water cooled to annel the brass.

You must have asbestos fingers ...

Walkalong
April 24, 2008, 02:37 PM
You must have asbestos fingers ...
and the whole idea of the case head being in water is to protect the integrity of it so the case head won't soften up. (Which is real bad, by the way ;) )

zxcvbob
April 24, 2008, 02:46 PM
How about dunking the case necks in a pot of molten lead? That seems faster and better temperature control (not that I've tried it yet)

cracked butt
April 24, 2008, 10:50 PM
Quote:
You must have asbestos fingers ...
and the whole idea of the case head being in water is to protect the integrity of it so the case head won't soften up. (Which is real bad, by the way

If you are doing it correctly it will only heat the neck to annealing temperatures before the brass is too hot to hand on to.

cracked butt
April 24, 2008, 11:00 PM
Quote:
You must have asbestos fingers ...
and the whole idea of the case head being in water is to protect the integrity of it so the case head won't soften up. (Which is real bad, by the way

If you are doing it correctly it will only heat the neck to annealing temperatures before the brass is too hot to hang on to. You can see the part that is annealed because it will turn a silverish color and have sort of a blueish rainbow color at the edge of where the annealing is. Like I said, your fingers won't get hot holding on to the rim, and it won't overanneal the case if you stop when the color change gets close to the shoulder. You don't need to get the brass glowing red or try to melt it or anything, just 3 seconds or so in the hottest part of a propane torch's flame and you're done.

cracked butt
April 24, 2008, 11:08 PM
http://telecom.hartford.edu/images/annealani.gif

I borrowed this short movie from a post on another site, please follow the link and look at post #10 for a full explaination. I've been doing annealing this way for several months since I read that.

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/23884/t/annealing-brass-to-help-fire-form.html

Clark
April 24, 2008, 11:13 PM
I did that for a while after reading Varmint Al's site.

I don't do it anymore, ever at, at all, for any reason.

For some cartridges I now buy no turn neck reamers and have Forster sizing dies honed out at the factory.

For some cartridges I now will just buy new brass if the neck splits.

I must have 30,000 pieces of brass, have shot 5,000 rounds in my life, and have 15 years left to shoot.

No more annealing for me.

cracked butt
April 24, 2008, 11:21 PM
For some cartridges I now will just buy new brass if the neck splits.

I don't bother with .223, .308, or 30-06, those are all very easy to replace.

The 8x57, 8x56r, .303, and 6.5x55 cases do get annealed though.

Eb1
April 25, 2008, 09:41 AM
I borrowed this short movie from a post on another site, please follow the link and look at post #10 for a full explaination. I've been doing annealing this way for several months since I read that.

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...fire-form.html


If you look you will see that the brass was chilled (it looks) before they start to torch it. you can see the condensation on the brass.

David Wile
April 25, 2008, 10:10 AM
Hey folks,

When I first started reloading, it was quite common to anneal cases after trimming them. The method was to stand them in a pan with an inch of water, heat the neck and shoulder of a case with a propane torch till it was cherry red, knock it over in the water and move on to the next case until finished.

I did this for a while, but then realized that both case stretching and case hardening were more related to shooting hot loads. I was not shooting hot loads and noticed that my full length resizing and shooting was not making the cases longer like some folks shooting hot loads. Pretty soon I realized I really did not have to trim or anneal my cases.

I would think if you are shooting cases hard you will have more of a need to trim and anneal cases to get more shooting life out of them.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

cracked butt
April 25, 2008, 10:12 AM
If you look you will see that the brass was chilled (it looks) before they start to torch it. you can see the condensation on the brass

Nope, not chilled. There is always going to be moisture (or oil, resizing lube, or other volatiles) in the pores or rough surface of the metal. When you heat it, the moisture is dried off.

When you set the brass down, the rest of the case will eventually get hot to the touch- but not any hotter than if it were fired in the chamber of a rifle which isn't enough to anneal the brass.

SlamFire1
April 25, 2008, 11:21 AM
Contrary to some folks opinion, it works just fine.

Without it, case loss is unacceptable when re-forming or fire-forming 30-06 & .308 to many other calibers.

With it, every case is a good one when you get done.

What sort of case life do you have after annealing. I am interested because someday I may shoot 6.5-08 or 35 Whelen, and I have lots of 308 and 30-06 cases.



I did this for a while, but then realized that both case stretching and case hardening were more related to shooting hot loads. I was not shooting hot loads and noticed that my full length resizing and shooting was not making the cases longer like some folks shooting hot loads. Pretty soon I realized I really did not have to trim or anneal my cases.

I took one set of 100 LC 64 cases 22 or 24 reloads in a M1a. I lost more cases in the weeds than I did to case neck cracks or body splits. I finally retired the remaining brass because the pockets were getting large and I was getting leery of taking the stuff much further.

Based on my experience, I don't anneal cases. They seem to last fine as is. Assuming that you are setting up your sizing dies with cartridge gages. Setting the shoulder too far back is one good way to get a case head separation, and you can't anneal your way out of those.

Rook rifle
April 25, 2008, 04:34 PM
NOT to many WILDCATERS on this thread we have to anneal all of our cases necks and shoulders

CBS220
April 25, 2008, 06:10 PM
Haven't read the posts, but unless you are significantly modifying the case to form a new one, annealing is almost entirely uncalled for.

taliv
April 25, 2008, 07:48 PM
yeah, i mean, when your necks start to get brittle, why anneal when you can just buy new brass, sort it, trim it, turn the necks, uniform the pockets, etc?

heck, it's not like brass is expensive these days. i'm sure if you called lapua and told them you've only shot your brass 8 times and were getting split necks, they'd send you your money back.

HJ857
April 25, 2008, 07:51 PM
heck, it's not like brass is expensive these days. i'm sure if you called lapua and told them you've only shot your brass 8 times and were getting split necks, they'd send you your money back.


HA! I have a whole pile of 6.5 Grendel brass that I'd be happy get refunded for.

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