Ballistic comp 7.62 x 54 vs .30-30??


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Starpower
April 24, 2008, 06:18 PM
I have A Mosin Nagant M44 that's pretty accurate, and I just picked up an abused Winchester 94 pre-64 .30-30 that I am restoring. Besides the absolute love of restoring old bruised and abused pieces, I am wondering about the balistic comparison of the two rounds. Most of what I read seems to lump the .30-30 into the same breath of the .30-06, which fairly well compares to the 7.62 x 54. I have seen that the .30-30, price wise is a little more than the .30-06, and both are a whole lot more than the 7.62 x 54, at least for now. Seems like the 54 is actually a llittle cheaper than the 39 right now. I'm just wondering how the two will compare after I get the 94 rebuilt.

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Bartkowski
April 24, 2008, 06:29 PM
The 30-30 will have a lot more drop past 150 yards. It is a little less powerful from the muzzle too. The 30-06 is very close to the 7.62x54r and the 30-30 is more like a 7.62x39.

George Hill
April 24, 2008, 07:05 PM
"The 30-06 is very close to the 7.62x54r"
Actually it's closer to .308, even if it is .30-06 sized. The Aught Six is a bit hotter.

cleardiddion
April 24, 2008, 07:06 PM
I thought the the 30-30 was closer to 7.62x39 in terms of ballistics. At least this is what I've been told.

ByAnyMeans
April 24, 2008, 07:16 PM
+1 I have heard the 30-30 compares most to the 7.62 russian but the russian holds it's drop a little better past 150 yards. Now if your asking price wise you can bet it's just all going to be going up atleast for awhile.

Avenger
April 24, 2008, 08:12 PM
From what I've heard, the average light ball 54r slots in between '06 and .308 balistically.

rangerruck
April 24, 2008, 09:03 PM
the x 54 , and the 06, will smoke a 3030, with these having a 200 yd zero, having about a 50-60 inch drop out to 500 yds. the 3030 will drop over 100 inches at that distance. It will also have about 1/2 the energy of the two above.

stan in sc
April 24, 2008, 09:34 PM
You cannot just use the phrase "7.62 Russian".There is a 7.62X54R and a 7.62x39.Both are Russian developed cartridges but very different.
The 7.62X39 is akin to a 30-30 in ballistics and a 7.62X54R is stronger than a .308 but not quite up to par with a 30-06.

Stan in SC

weaselchew
April 24, 2008, 09:49 PM
Actually, I think people use "7.62 Russian" to mean 7.62x54R and "7.62 Soviet" to mean 7.62x39.

I think it's easier to use 7.62x54R and 7.62x39 rather than getting mixed up in the Russian/Soviet naming... plus it could also mislead people to think the "R" in 7.62x54R stands for "Russian" rather than "Rimmed".

grendelbane
April 24, 2008, 10:22 PM
In order to further confuse the issue, I would like to remind every one of the 2 Russian pistol cartridges that are both 7.62. The Nagant revolver chambers a 7.62x38r cartridge, and the Tokarev pistol, and PPSh 41 and PPS43 smgs chamber the 7.62x25 Tokarev cartridge.

The Czechs also used a 7.62x45mm cartridge for a short period of time, as well as the 7.62x25 Tokarev pistol/smg cartridge.

For that matter, the Russians did try to develop a submachinegun to fire the 7.62x38r revolver cartridge. Understandably, it did not make it to production.

In any case, the performance of the 7.62x54r is very close to that of the 30/06.

35 Whelen
April 24, 2008, 10:30 PM
The 7.62x39 does NOT compare ballistically to the 30-30. If you're talking paper energy, perhaps, but in the real world, 30-30 vs. 7.62x39mm, the 30-30 will run the same weight bullet as the 7.62x39 some 200-250 fps faster. For example, it will push a 150 gr. bullet approximately the same speed as the little Russian cartridge will push a 123 gr. bullet.
35W

R.W.Dale
April 24, 2008, 10:35 PM
The 7.62x39 does NOT compare ballistically to the 30-30. If you're talking paper energy, perhaps, but in the real world, 30-30 vs. 7.62x39mm, the 30-30 will run the same weight bullet as the 7.62x39 some 200-250 fps faster. For example, it will push a 150 gr. bullet approximately the same speed as the little Russian cartridge will push a 123 gr. bullet.

It's not quite that simple

If you actually shoot both over a chronograph you'll find the 7.62x39 gets within 100 FPS of 30-30 win with the same bullet weights. Factory velocity specs for 30-30win are grossly overstated. In the real world a 20" 30-30 is doing good to hit 2200 fps with 150grn bullets, I've chronied factory remington 170grn ammo at less than 1900fps. I've loaded and shot a lot of 30-30 ammo in various 20" barreled guns, I have yet to get within 150fps of claimed velocities.

In short factory specs on 30-30 ammo are a complete fantasy

From my 18" CZ carbine 154grn wolf 7.62x39 averages 2150 FPS. The 125 grn loads get real close to 2500.

I've found the differences in 30-30 vs 7.62x39 to be even LESS than the difference betwixt 308 and 30-06

35 Whelen
April 24, 2008, 11:12 PM
If you actually shoot both over a chronograph you'll find the 7.62x39 gets within 100 FPS of 30-30 win with the same bullet weights.

I actually have loaded and chronographed both. It's been some years since I loaded the 30-30, but when I did, it was for a Winchester 94 carbine. I don't recall the exact velocities, but I do remember the loads with a 170 gr. bullet being on par with the published factory ballistics. I loaded some 30-30's for a buddies Savage 340 w/ a 22" barrel and using Re-7 powder, 150 gr. velocities ran from 2316 fps to 2418 fps. Federal 150 gr. factory loads clocked exactly 2350 fps. Of course the velocity might be a tad slower out of a 20" barrel, but not much.
I've also loaded the 7.62x39 (ironically, also with Re-7)although to a lesser extent. I've reached 2400 fps with a 123 gr. bullet, but this out of the Yugo's "long" 22" barrel.
What I've found typically happens when people compare the 7.62x39 to the 30-30 is they break out the handy ballistics chart and begin slinging energy values about which is simply a mistake...at least in my world (that'd be the world of big game hunting). Bullets typically used in the 30-30, the 150 & 170 gr. varieties, have much greater sectional densities than the typical x39 bullet of 123 gr. Given similar bullet construction, this, as you know, equates to much better penetration on the part of the heavier bullet.
35W

George Hill
April 24, 2008, 11:13 PM
"In the real world a 20" 30-30 is doing good to hit 2200 fps with 150grn bullets"

Feh. My Marlin with a 16 inch barrel chronoed out at 2225 with 160 grain loads. It used to do a lot better with a 20 inch tube.

Starpower
April 25, 2008, 10:33 AM
Thanks for the pondering fodder. I own three of the four shooters described in all above, the x 39, x 54 adn now, the .30-30. I don't have anything to shoot the .308, (yet) but realistically, they all four are in pretty much the same class. (At the considerable risk of starting another forum argument.) Thanks again.

K3
April 25, 2008, 10:38 AM
In the real world a 20" 30-30 is doing good to hit 2200 fps with 150grn bullets

Piling on here, but 150gr factory core-lokts ran almost 2300fps out of my Win 94. My handloads run about 2250, but I know I could push 2350 or 2375 and still be safe pressure-wise.

Then again, maybe my chrono is inaccurate.

Tarvis
April 25, 2008, 10:42 AM
I have heard the 30-30 compares most to the 7.62 russian

Am I wrong, or is 7.62 russian refering to 7.62x54R, and 7.62 soviet refering to 7.62x39?

R.W.Dale
April 25, 2008, 10:55 AM
Feh. My Marlin with a 16 inch barrel chronoed out at 2225 with 160 grain loads. It used to do a lot better with a 20 inch tube.

Then you must have one FAST 16" bbl, cause that's what the rest of the world gets from a 20"tube

http://www.realguns.com/archives/120.htm

nevermind the fact that the lever revolution is SUPPOSED to be going 2400FPS and also nevermind that that's only 75FPS faster than 154grn Wolf from 7.62x39 from a 18"bbl

YEP a whopping 75FPS diffrence I guess this is where people are able to draw the conclusion that 30-30 is much closer to 300WBY in terms of power than 7.62x39

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=289183&highlight=beef

What I've found typically happens when people compare the 7.62x39 to the 30-30 is they break out the handy ballistics chart and begin slinging energy values about which is simply a mistake...

Only if you compare apples and oranges with regard to bullet weight, compare the same bullet weights and the differences are meaningless. Remember you can shoot heavier bullets in 7.62x39, the world doesn't end at 125grs.

What I've found loading both cartridges in 4 different bolt actions 2 Savages, a CZ527 and a Mauser is within MODERN reloading data that with the light 125grn bullets the x39 is about 100FPS faster; with 150grn bullets it's a wash and lastly with 170grn bullets the 30-30 is about 100fps faster.

MODERN load data is key, What I've found is when people are claiming to get max velocity from 30-30 win 9 times in 10 their using gross overloads listed in 1970's or older manuals.

Starpower
April 25, 2008, 01:48 PM
All ya'll (that's plural for all you'ns inda North) are way too deep into this for me. I build or restore em, point em atda paper, go boom, hole inda paper. Not in center? Adjust something, repeat. Hole in center? Go home. But thanks for the great discussion.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 25, 2008, 01:59 PM
I think of the .30 caliber rounds something like this....

On a scale of 1-10:

1. 7.62x39 ==> 4
2. .30-30 win ==> 5
3. Tie: .303 brit and .30-40 Krag ==> 6
4. Tie: .308 win, 7.62x54, 7.5x55 swiss. 7.5 french ==> 7
5. .30-06 ==> 8
6. .300 magnums ==> 9
7. Ultra magnums, like .30-378 Weatherby ==> 10

They will all kill quite easily with proper shot placement.

R.W.Dale
April 25, 2008, 02:17 PM
I think of the .30 caliber rounds something like this....

On a scale of 1-10:

I think that's a pretty fair assessment I would only add and modify a couple things to fill in some blanks and give a better outline as I feel the 303 class of rounds is much closer to the 308 category than it is 30-30

0. 7.62x25tok==> 1.5
1. 30carbine==> 2.5
2. 7.62x39 ==> 4.0
3. 30-30 win ==> 4.5
4. 300sav .303 brit and .30-40 Krag ==> 6.2
5. Tie: .308 win, 7.62x54, 7.5x55 swiss. 7.5 french ==> 7
6. .30-06 ==> 8
7. .300 magnums ==> 9
8. Ultra magnums, like .30-378 Weatherby ==> 14


2.0 and higher is more than adequate for southern whitetail

35 Whelen
April 25, 2008, 07:07 PM
What I've found loading both cartridges in 4 different bolt actions 2 Savages, a CZ527 and a Mauser is within MODERN reloading data that with the light 125grn bullets the x39 is about 100FPS faster; with 150grn bullets it's a wash and lastly with 170grn bullets the 30-30 is about 100fps faster.:what:

...umm, yes.....I'll have whatever he's drinking....:D

R.W.Dale
April 25, 2008, 07:35 PM
..umm, yes.....I'll have whatever he's drinking...

it's called an F-1 chrony, you should try it sometime

I've also loaded the 7.62x39 (ironically, also with Re-7)

I've found RE7 to be too slow to get optimum performance from x39 with 125grn bullets. It works good for 150grn slugs but the lighter bullets call for AA1680 or N-120, with these two powders you can get up to the mid 2500FPS range.

My savage 340 with a 20" tube could only muster 2350FPS shooting 130grn Hornady SSP's over a maximum load of varget.

35 Whelen
April 25, 2008, 11:12 PM
it's called an F-1 chrony, you should try it sometime

FWIW, I had a Chrony Beta Master and found it to be an unreliable, inaccurate P.O.S. This was validated by data from two different brands chronographs I've owned over the last 20 or so years. I now use a CED Millenium 2.

35W

esmith
April 25, 2008, 11:18 PM
Actually it's closer to .308, even if it is .30-06 sized.

Okay.

7.62x54R
7.62x63
7.62x51

54mm - 51mm= 3 longer than .308
63mm - 54mm= 7 longer than 54R

Fail....

R.W.Dale
April 25, 2008, 11:46 PM
FWIW, I had a Chrony Beta Master and found it to be an unreliable, inaccurate P.O.S. This was validated by data from two different brands chronographs I've owned over the last 20 or so years. I now use a CED Millenium 2.

35W


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