Concealed Carry Essay: Rebuttal from Teacher


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Deer Hunter
April 25, 2008, 01:55 PM
I got my paper back today. 85. Wonderful. :barf:

So I get to looking at it, turning the pages, looking for things that was wrong with it. I don't see anything. No red-marks on the paper at all.

On the last page, I get this.

Good paper, but you answered criticism with opinion rather than verifiable fact
-R. Valedez

That's it? No other explaination? Even though my citations showed factual occurances and links to law databases?

So I look closer. And I found two pieces of paper, typed up, that wasn't there when I handed the paper in.

He typed up a two page rebuttal to my position. :banghead:

You know, biased English teachers are a pain in the you know what. So I sat down and wrote a rebuttal to his. I'm trying to be as educational as possible, but sometimes....

His rebuttal is in quotes. I broke it up into each argument.

Reynaldo,

I understand your sentiments. Trust me; I hear them all the time. But in your response to my paper I can see that you strongly disagree with the idea of students carrying concealed weapons on campus. I'll try to break your arguments down and present them to you in a way that might make more sense.

But really, are you there to protect me instead? If you hear gunshots in a neighboring classroom are you going to run into help me, to be a big-ass hero? Or should I carry a handgun in case one of my students go berserk?


Even if you do not carry a concealed weapon you will always be protect by those who carry them. Albeit unconsciously. Don't simply look at Texas's concealed carry laws (Which I'm sure you have researched, right?), take for instance Colorado, Florida, Vermont (where open carry is allowed) or North Carolina. Any state, in fact, that allows for CHL. If it is actively known in that state that someone can carry, then it acts as a deterrent for some criminals. They could be looking to rob the staunchest anti-firearm lobbyist in the state, but they wouldn't know whether or not they had a firearm. There was a poll taken a few years back in max security prisons across the country. It asked the inmates what they most feared while attempting to rob someone. It wasn't the police or jail time they were afraid of. I can't remember the statistic, so I'm not going to BS it, but a huge percentage said the only thing deterring them oftentimes were if the homeowner or civilian was armed or not.

But to answer that first question, who knows? Maybe I'm across campus. Perhaps you'll be long gone before I reach the age where I legally can carry a pistol concealed. If I heard gunshots I certainly wouldn't dive under a desk and wait to be shot, if that‘s what you mean. It depends on the circumstance, as does everything else. But for the most part a CHL is protection for the individual that owns it. Why should you even bring it up that I should protect you? You're of the age to get your CHL, so why would you shove your responsibility of self preservation onto someone else?

First off, heroes don't usually have large asses. Look at batman, superman, etc. You being the nerd you are I would have hoped you could have seen that.

As for you carrying a handgun, well you have already said you don't feel comfortable with it. I'm all for letting faculty carrying concealed on campus, it simply makes sense. The teacher who died at the VT shooting died while holding a door closed from Cho as student escaped through the window. If there had been a faculty member present with a concealed weapon the results would have been different.

The way I see it, if someone comes into a classroom with a un [sic] to shoot you they aren't going to challenge you to a formal duel where you both have the same amount of time to draw your weapons. They will either be as surreptitious about it as they can until the gun is already pointed at your face or they will do it so fast that you haven't got the time to defend yourself.

Well I'm glad we agree, then, because the dueling scenario is rather comic bookish. But you are right, if someone's going to catch you by surprise then there's not much you can do (not taking into account the "gun in face" scenario, which I hope you realize is the easiest way to not get shot. The closer the barrel is to your head, the easier it is to get out of the line of fire).

In your scenario I think you fail to observe how quickly a gun can be un-holstered. Have you ever seen the holsters people use for concealed carry? Or the way their pistols are carried? You'd be surprised at just how quickly it can be done.

However, simply because these scenarios exist doesn't mean that people can't have some fighting chance. The way you say it is almost like a doctor telling a patient, "Listen, you've got some hardass cancer growing on your gut and you don't have much of a chance at all. Let's just skip the meds and pump you with morphine until your kids can collect the life insurance, m'kay?"

Numerous students tried to rush Cho at the VT shooting. They were all shot. Those who didn't rush were killed literally execution style. This all occurred over a 30 minute time-span. The beauty of concealed carry is that first part: concealed. No one knows what you have. With that shooting, there was plenty of time for someone to draw and stop Cho before anyone could get seriously injured. But that didn't happen, because according to you the current system is doing a great job of stopping kids from shooting up their schools.

And what if you do get your gun out in time? If someone is going to shoot you, they will whether you have a handgun or not. When gang members pull out guns, it doesn't stop the other gang from pulling out their guns. They still all get shot, even when they have a gun it doesn't mean they wont die.

Equating students, especially legally licensed concealed carrying students, to gang members is quite a stretch. But if I follow you here (without questioning how many gang-related shootings you have witnessed), I think I see what you are saying. You are still perpetuating the "it wont do any good, why bother?" argument. When saying "they all get shot", does that include the bad guy too?

If it does, I'd say that's a step in the right direction. The next step is for you not to associate guns with gangs. If you want, I'll take you shooting one day. I could even take you to one of my pistol competitions. Not many gang members there, though, so don't get your hopes up.

So now we have a firefight, crossfire in the classroom. I doubt that the results of a gunfight at close range would have anything to do with proficiency. It isn't a sword fight. Hell, a sword fight isn't a sword fight like in the movies. When I studied fencing you learned the moves but when you actually fought, the outcome basically ended up as who guessed the best, "He might move his sword this way, so hopefully I will counter him and then strike."

Again, not doubting your knowledge on the subject at all, but how many "close range" (which would actually be "normal range") gun fights have you personally studied? Proficiency with a handgun at normal ranges where it would be used in self defense (according to the FBI statistic, it's 7 yards) is not hard to do. Even with adrenaline pumping. Reynaldo, I could teach you how to be proficient at 7 yards if you wanted. You speak of crossfire, which is something I'd think of as dealing with squad based machineguns. However all of this really relates back to the fact that somehow you don't think that a student bent on bodily harm should be stopped with equal or greater force. For your sake, let's think about the other scenario, besides the one where the in-proficient student doesn't fire at the crazed gunman. That student, along with a lot of others, ends up dead.

But thank god there wasn't a firefight, right?

Something you don't know about me is that I also fence. I've learned the moves, the stylized combat, all that jazz. When I got into a spar, as you have said, sometimes the opponent was extremely random and it took a bit of guessing. However if you practiced, like I had, you could see where the lunges were coming from. It was not impossible.

But didn't you just say it wouldn't likely be a "duel"? Forget the fencing analogy. We learned the fencing for competition use, not the one used to kill people.

So now she's firing, you're firing, I'm sure you've trained so you are aiming only at him (I am switching genders because both men and women have shot up their schools) but they are a dumb ass with no training whatsoever so firing in every direction. He'll be hit, you'll be hit, probably me and several others in class will be hit. It doesn't keep people from dying.

So "me" shooting "him/her" is a bad thing because he will still be shooting in random directions that might hit "you" or others (ignoring the fact that this hermaphroditic shooter would have multiple center of mass bullet holes). So again we have hit a reoccurring theme of your rebuttal. You are against having qualified CHL holders carrying while in the classroom or on campus in general but you concede that shootings occur and people die but it is somehow better that they die unable to protect themselves. A CHL gives you the right to carry protection with you for yourself. These people are not “superheroes” that will run across campus to protect you, the vehemently defenseless. They leave that option up to you. If an incident were to happen in the vicinity of a CHL holder while on campus, the threat would be taken care of for the safety of that CHL holder.

A CHL is an individual responsibility. “We” are not there to protect “you”. If concealed carry on campus was adopted and you still refused to carry, then that’s fine. It’s your personal choice and everyone will respect that. But don’t let that choice affect how others live their lives.

You make an argument about the training involved and how you are responsible enough to hold and handle a gun. Well, a lot of people aren’t responsible or mature enough, so who is going to protect them? Don’t they have the right to defend themselves also?


By “a lot”, I assume you believe that is concealed carry on campus was adopted a bunch of students would run out and get their CHL. Even if a few more people, namely faculty and a few students who qualified, would get their CHL I doubt it would make so much as a dent in the percentage of students who actually have their CHL. Many people even outside of school don’t have a CHL, so how can you say “a lot” so easily?

Some people are not “responsible or mature enough to hold and handle” a pistol. How responsible or mature do you have to be to “hold” A pistol? A gun? We’ve got 18 year olds we trust with our country’s security, so this “maturity” can’t be based on age. Perhaps it has something to do with how you view guns in general. Earlier in your rebuttal you subconsciously connected guns and gangs together. That lead me to believe you do not have much experience around firearms in general, which is ok. Some people do not feel comfortable around guns at all. The same could be said for cars, religions, and drugs. It’s ok if you or others who aren’t as “responsible” as some don’t get their CHL, but like I have said previously: Do not take away the right of someone else just because you are uncomfortable around it.


These individuals deserve the chance for self protection, just like anyone else. If they choose against it, that is their personal choice which will be respected.

If it’s not the police who protect them, then it puts the responsibility on you again and other concealed and carry advocates. Do you want that responsibility, to protect, to be a hero?

No, it does not put the responsibility on “me” or any other person who supports concealed carry. Individual safety is the responsibility of the individual. A person with a CHL gets the CHL for the same reason they wear a seatbelt or have accidental coverage life insurance: They hope that they will never have to use their concealed handgun, but if the one in a million situation did arise they would use it and save themselves. These people are not heroes, they are your run-of-the-mill citizens who value their lives and the lives of their families. The understand that sometimes bad things happen to good people and the only thing stopping it sometimes is an individual willing to stand up and refuse to be a victim.

Someone once told me the definition of a hero is someone who gets other people killed

If this someone’s heroes include people like Ted Bundy and Charles Manson, then yes that definition would apply.

I’ve been robbed before. At gunpoint, they got my wallet and my cell-phone. Sprint replaced the cell-phone in a couple of days, they got 10 bucks out of my wallet and I reported the credit cards stolen before anyone had a chance to make purchases and I had tog et a new license. It was an inconvenience at best. A friend of mine had their identity stolen online, without the use of a gun, and was robbed of 5000 dollars before he found out. He got it much worse than I did. But, if I had a gun and tried to pull it on the guy that robbed me, it probably would have cost me my life. I could feel victimized and purchase a gun and always be looking over my shoulder so that I can get the drop on the guy trying to rob me, but I choose instead not to live in fear.

First I’d like to say that’s a bad place to be in. I feel for you, but that “inconvenience” can happen again. You could have gotten a CHL after that incident, yes, but you would have considered yourself at that point paranoid and always “looking over” your shoulder for people that might try to mug you. That sounds like sage advise for anyone, mug-victim or not. It’s not being paranoid, it’s having an ounce of situational awareness. It’s not “living in fear”, it’s living with the knowledge that this world is not a cushy, safe place and living with the responsibility of your own self preservation. This doesn’t mean owning a gun and carrying it around. That could easily be replaced with a knife, lessons at local dojo, or carrying around a can of pepper spray. Would those people be paranoid? If someone is mugged and comes out of it with a healthy respect for understanding what’s going on around them, I’d say they made it out ok.

That’s the thing, you say in your essay to choose to be either victim or a survivor. Well I have chosen not to be a victim or fear. If someone is gunning for me, I am probably going to die whether I have a gun or not (so no survivor). If they plan to rob me, the contents of my wallet is not worth my life.


Again you have come back to the same scenario. “Well they have a gun, and I’ll probably die anyway, so what’s the point of fighting back?” It’s your choice not to carry a gun for protection, but don’t push the responsibility of your safety onto others around you.

Your wallet may not be worth your life, but what if it’s not your wallet? What if they kill you for fun? What if they are angry at society? What if they see you on the street and for one reason or another think, “Look at that big fat Mexican, let’s go kick his ass right back to Mexico!” You can’t equate every situation where you would need to take responsibility for your own self protection to a small mugging.



I will not live in fear, because fear makes you do stupid things. You are more likely to accidentally shoot someone, a friend, or loved one, a perfect stranger, simply because you are afraid.


I would love it if you pointed me to the places where you pull this statistic. Because honestly, even in my paper there were citations to articles debunking this statement.

You walk down a dark alley at North Gate, you see a big Mexican guy like me, with crazy red hair, maybe some spiked bracelets (yeah I have spiked bracelets), and you finger your gun because you don’t recognize me. But I recognize you so I walk closer to say “hi” and jokingly tell you to go home and do your next paper. But, since you are so afraid that I am some hooligan trying to rob you, you pull out a gun and in the heat of the moment, you end my life. Sure, this is a dramatization, but no less dramatic that some of the things you wrote in your paper.

One thing that is different from my paper’s scenarios and yours: Mine are legally correct.

First off, carrying on Northgate would be pointless. When you go to Northgate, you go to drink. Seeing as how the state of Texas doesn’t allow concealed carry in places that serve alcohol, that makes the scenario a bit unrealistic.

Another thing is your insistence on believing that everyone who carries a concealed weapon (whether that be a gun, a knife, pepper spray, rape whistle, etc) are paranoid emotionally challenged trigger-happy people who are just itching for a good gunfight. This also leads me to believe that you think you have never truly met someone who carries on a regular basis. However I know for fact that you have, because they are just normal people you’ll meet on a day-to-day basis. How many times have you been to Walmart in your life? I will guarantee you that you were behind or in front of someone in line that carried a concealed pistol.

You’re still alive today, so your scenario doesn’t work in that respect either.

So, I’m done, lecture from the teacher is over. Probably hasn’t changed your mind, I’m not asking you to change your mind. I’m asking you to keep an open mind. All I want you to do, is think about it.

-R. Valdez

So, I’m done. The lecture from the student is over. Probably hasn’t changed your mind, but that’s not what I’m asking you to do. I’m asking you to keep an open mind. All I want from you is to think about it.

-N. Kennedy

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MakAttak
April 25, 2008, 02:06 PM
The professor is an idiot.

However, coming off as a jerk yourself will not aid your cause.

Ignore his insults; respond with facts. Not just citations, list the facts and THEN cite them.

shdwfx
April 25, 2008, 02:13 PM
Kudos to you for fighting back. However, I would have gone over his head with your response. MakAttak is right, though. Your response has a lot of emotion where there should be facts.

Calling you a "big-ass" hero is about as unprofessional a teacher can get - that's a no no.

Register a complaint with the department head, your adviser, and possibly the dean. Highlight his crude and demeaning "rebuttal" but stay professional yourself. When grading, his job is to critique your persuasive technique, not engage you in debate. Handing out B grades with a rebuttal in place of specific criticism for your writing style is inexcusable.

Your chances of getting a grade adjustment or an apology are slim, but it's better than the alternative - rolling over. It will be a real learning experience.

Deer Hunter
April 25, 2008, 02:13 PM
I know I know. In my argument, (this is just a rough) I fixed it and am asking him to come out to the range with me one day this summer.

As for the department head?

I doubt it'll do much. I'm going to do it anyway, but the Englisih department is a group-think tank.

FourTeeFive
April 25, 2008, 02:19 PM
It sounds like his rebuttal was purely opinion while yours had footnotes and citations. What is his response to that? If you had supported your statements at worse he could call it a hypotheses.

bogie
April 25, 2008, 02:25 PM
Could you also post your original paper? I'd like to see a slice/n/dice regarding opinion vs. verifiable fact.

strat81
April 25, 2008, 02:26 PM
"Big-ass" "Dumbass"

***??? This is a professor? I've had quite a few young professors and none of them ever used such language. It's not that it is offensive to me, but I expect a professor to use language more appropriate to university-level instruction. The fact this individual is an English teacher is even more alarming.

Secondly, when I took College English I (in 1999... not that long ago), I wrote a paper on the extinction of the dinosaurs. In my version, they died-off because the planet was invaded by big, red, sock-eaters. They ate the dinosaurs socks and since the dinos had smelly feet, they all suffocated. I got an A. Why? Because it was well written. The content was more or less irrelevant.

If you are required to cite everything with facts and you did not, yes, you should be docked points. The amount you lose should be commensurate with the amount of errors you made (or opinions stated).

You should not be docked points for taking a contrarian view, no matter what your so-called professor thinks. Furthermore, the content of his paper seems to indicate that no one is "perfeshnul nuff" to carry a gun. His old, tired, arguments that blood will run in the streets, whites will shoot "scary brown people", orphans will be caught in the cross-fire, and other end-of-civilization scenarios have been proven to be nonsense based on the fact that 48 states allow some form of concealed carry, many/most of which are shall-issue.

Tell him never to visit Utah for any academic conferences. They allow student and faculty concealed carry.

Funderb
April 25, 2008, 02:30 PM
florida does not allow OC



BTW, your professor is EXTREMELY immature,
His comments could have him in front of an academic review board.

waterhouse
April 25, 2008, 02:32 PM
Even if you do not carry a concealed weapon you will always be protect by those who carry them. Albeit unconsciously.

I haven't gotten very far, but since it is an English paper it should be "protected." I would also probably then put a comma before albeit: protected, albeit unconsciously. I understand this is just a draft response to criticism, just trying to help.

Is this a real professor or a TA? Although many of them were biased, most of my English professors in college (in Engineering they called them "technical writing professors," but either way) were fairly well versed in grammar, and certainly in the use of spell check, both of which this person seems to have completely ignored.

Also, was your grade based purely on your argument/viewpoint, or was grammar graded as well?

bogie
April 25, 2008, 02:44 PM
Really... Dude, let's see that paper, preferably with cites?

And let's see the rebuttal, in one unsplit/unabridged chunk... And let a coupla of us po' folks who either are, or used to be, professional writers tear it to small ragged pieces...

Treo
April 25, 2008, 02:55 PM
I got lucky my Comp II professor actually let me debate the issue W/ an anti in class. He also sat there and let me eat her for lunch.
here's my critque
From the tone of both letters it sounds like you two have more of a co-equal friend relationship than student/ professor. If that's the case I would ignore the "big-assed hero" comment, I certainly wouldn't report it. as to your rebuttal I would do a rewrite like I was doing a for grade presuasive argument essay in direct answer to his rebuttal, complete W/ footnotes ,citations, & MLA format. I wouldn't put a single factual statement in the reply that I couldn't specifically document. If that doesn't change his mind, nothing will.

Big45
April 25, 2008, 02:57 PM
I tried to read the OP but couldn't do it. Sorry. Try condensing.

romma
April 25, 2008, 02:59 PM
Highly unethical sounding to say the least.

Acheron
April 25, 2008, 03:00 PM
This is why I don't write about modern-day US politics in my classes, unless it is a political science class that specifically calls for it. You are unlikely to change any minds and it causes way more trouble than it's worth. It might even cause you to fail. Sometimes you need to check your opinions at the door.

Smurfslayer
April 25, 2008, 03:14 PM
First, what are you trying to accomplish?

Is it to get a good or better grade?
Is it to learn about writing papers?
Are you trying to convince the professor you're position is correct?
Is your audience broader than just your professor?

In my opinion his 2 page rebuttal evidences a bias that creates a conflict of interest which prevents him from objectively grading your paper. While some of his comments reflect a willingness to debate, others are simply a statement that "his opinion matters, yours does not". That is significant because neither did he back his assertions up with fact, but rather emotion and conjecture. He drew the conclusion that since he was robbed once that any subsequent robbery would only result in a small financial penalty, but increasingly armed robberies are resulting in more injuries and death even after compliance.

If you feel your grade was less than fair, you should confront him, in person. You should lay it out that regardless of opinion your paper put forth an idea. He disagreed with that idea and took the unusual step of rebutting your idea with his idea and you honestly feel that he graded the paper unobjectively for it. Out of respect, and fairness, you would like him to re-examine the paper without the rebuttal and examine it alone on the facts and qualifications required for the assignment. Does it present the idea objectively and put forth the author's idea as plausible? Does it provide supporting positions or data? Or is it light on supporting fact. Request that he debate the merits of the product with you, not the idea.

Some of his comments did seem to be directed at thought provocation, others at simple provocation.

zxcvbob
April 25, 2008, 03:14 PM
It sounds like his rebuttal was purely opinion while yours had footnotes and citations. What is his response to that? If you had supported your statements at worse he could call it a hypotheses.

Ding-ding-ding. We have a winner. This is what I would say to the dept head, (along with a copy of the instructor's "rebuttal" with its misspellings, slang, etc.)

bowl443
April 25, 2008, 03:16 PM
An english prof should know better than to use "a lot."
My old english prof would give you an F for any paper that contained either "alot" or "a lot."

partyharty
April 25, 2008, 03:16 PM
While I agree that there does not seem to be a professional student/professor relationship here I have also had experience in this. I failed English Comp 1 in college because the prof disagreed with my take on a subject (it happened so long ago that I don't even remember the subject). The paper had on the back page that it was well written but she disagreed with my take on the subject.

When I attempted to appeal the decision I found that she had gone on "vacation" and thus would be unable to attend the hearing (so the head of the dept simply refused to hold the hearing). I found out later that she had retired at the end of the year was running out her leave/vacation time.

Looking back I should have fought the decision, but In the end I retook comp 1 and passed it the next semester (with a B).

Now there may be more than meets the eye here (esp without seeing the paper in question) but English Comp is one of the things that grading is very subjective. The teachers have a lot of leeway and they can (and some do) grade based on if they agree with the subject matter.

bogie
April 25, 2008, 03:17 PM
We don't know if the original paper was opinion or facts until we see it here. What we do, we mark it either "verifiable fact" or "opinion," and highlight the teacher's commentary that he thought it was opinion. Then we get him to use the "B" word - "believe."

If he "believes" that something is true, that is definitely not a "fact." That is opinion, and that is HIS opinion. His flawed belief system.

bogie
April 25, 2008, 03:19 PM
My house sits on a lot that is less than 1/4 acre in size.

THPPT!

BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT USING WORDS LIKE "ANY" or "ALWAYS."

another okie
April 25, 2008, 03:22 PM
What's wrong with an 85? That's a good grade, especially considering the number of words which were misspelled.

bogie
April 25, 2008, 03:33 PM
did I miss something? where's the paper?

Funderb
April 25, 2008, 03:33 PM
My old english prof would give you an F for any paper that contained either "alot" or "a lot."

but what if you were describing some property you were interested in?

wolf13
April 25, 2008, 03:37 PM
Need to see the paper as well as the teacher's response in full. But, I have learned if you want an A instead of a B or C, you give the teacher what the teacher wants. Is that the right thing? No. Many times I am fine with knowing what I wrote would most likely get me a lower grade, but I turned it in knowing it. Some teachers can put aside their feelings and grade the paper on your writing rather than your topic, others can't. Learn to tell which can and can't and write accordingly if you want the A.

Cosmoline
April 25, 2008, 03:39 PM
If you want that A you'd better learn to mouth the party line. That's just the way it is in modern academia. Independent thought is NOT rewarded. In fact they find it terrifying.

Hokkmike
April 25, 2008, 03:42 PM
So from this, I ask - do gun owners (who carry) live in fear?

bogie
April 25, 2008, 03:48 PM
Pretty much only in fear of being discriminated against.

Wanna see the paper. You've got it on your computer. Post the one you handed in, and let some professionals nuke it. And turn THAT critique in... I'll copy it to Word, and we can use the markup feature...

Former Army journalist, PR major. Did R&D communications for 10 years.

Who else wants a shot at it?

mojohand
April 25, 2008, 03:48 PM
Your not going to change his mind, but that isn't the point. I applaud you taking the high road on this issue and standing up for your beliefs. Alot of others your age wouldn't have. I agree you should take out the wise-acre comments, funny as they may be, because they only weaken your arguments. Otherwise, well done. I would give you an A

Beagle-zebub
April 25, 2008, 03:53 PM
He uses an awful lot of hypothetical scenarios to rebut a policy that is already widely in practice. Did you include the data in your essay in addition to citing it? (If you posted it on the second page of this thread, my apologies.)

The example of how he was help up was itself flawed, since he could have chosen not to have fired on the mugger (by acting like he didn't have the gun or starting a stand-off), and because no one is compelling him to carry in the first place. This is also another hypothetical, whereas data on the outcomes of muggings of armed victims is surely available, though perhaps only in raw form.

zminer
April 25, 2008, 03:57 PM
This is clearly a case where we cannot know what's up until we see the original paper. Any other replies are merely based on conjecture. As one poster said, an 85 is a pretty good grade and would be consistent with the only paper-related comment we have - that the OP used more opinion-based than factually-based arguments.

Let's see the original paper before we go blasting some professor that nobody here knows (except the OP, obviously).

primlantah
April 25, 2008, 03:58 PM
Higher education is a joke. This is an issue you should take to the dean...but it wont accomplish much. College is something you just do and finish and not take anything to heart.

Pat-inCO
April 25, 2008, 03:59 PM
You have a lot of good information in your reply. I do suggest, as others already have, that you provide statistics and provide the source for those statistics.

In general, the further you go into your reply the calmer your tone. You might want to review the first portion and see if you can strengthen the logic with a bit calmer tone.

One item that may not be very useful to your reply, but may also provide you with some one else's approach is at http://www.w0ipl.net/ccw.htm

Keep up the good work!

shdwfx
April 25, 2008, 04:00 PM
Was this the paper?
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=354254

bogie
April 25, 2008, 04:05 PM
was that the version that was submitted?

Feud
April 25, 2008, 04:09 PM
Someone once told me the definition of a hero is someone who gets other people killed

Pfft! He got that off of Serenity, which if anything, is a very PRO gun movie!

ctdonath
April 25, 2008, 04:12 PM
You've gotten caught in a common rhetorical trap: responding to the response. Don't. He docked you 15 points; call him out on exactly, objectively, why. Point out that his 2 pages of rhetoric are empty and emotive. Stay focused. Your response was too long. Insist he explain what, objectively, was missing.

When I studied fencing
Then he should know that those suitably equipped trump those who aren't. Tangents are immaterial if the core is missing.

patentmike
April 25, 2008, 04:18 PM
CT nailed it. Stay focused. They hate that. Looks to me like the prof does live in fear. "I wouldn't be fast enough, I'd shoot someone by mistake etc..." Fear is a weapon. He'd probably be afraid of getting into some sort of trouble if you ask him to justify the -15.

Deer Hunter
April 25, 2008, 04:21 PM
Alright alright guys, I'm back from an SCCC luncheon.

The original paper was here http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=354254

My reply to his rebuttal was mostly unchanged. I cleaned up the grammar and spelling while replacing a few words here or there.

If I wanted an A on that paper, I could have written about why Batman is so much better than Superman. He would have given me an A before he read the rest of the paper.

I want an A in the class, which is why the 85 was a little troubling. But that's not my biggest concern.

My biggest concern is the fact that I have nothing from him, in the grading rubric or in the paper itself, that would show me what I did wrong or how to fix it. All he wrote was that one comment at the end, and that was all.

I am sending my original paper to the dean of the English branch, but NOT for a better grade. I want someone in that college to actually read my paper for what it is: A Paper. I want them to grade it accordingly. I want to get better because I just got a position as a writing center worker and will be helping kids with their papers every day.

Yes, this guy is a grad student. A TA, to be official.

It may have sounded harsh, and maybe I wasn't the most eloquent authors amung THR, but I had to write something. Just for my own benefit. This guy went through college with a lib arts degree, and from the way he talks and the times we've talked about firearms and CCW, it would take a lot more than what I can bring to the table to change this guy's views.

zminer
April 25, 2008, 04:23 PM
I don't want to be a jerk, but if that is the paper in question, it is not clear that he graded you the way he did based on the fact that your arguments were pro-gun while he was anti-gun. What he said was that you didn't cite evidence, and instead used emotional arguments. See here:

“The police are the only people qualified enough to carry such a dangerous weapon!“ (Peterson ) Show me an officer on campus that can consistently place accurate shots on your standard torso target at 25 yards and I’ll show you an avian swine. “Campuses are full of drugs and alcohol abuse, no place for immature students to carry firearms.“ (Gill-Austern) As opposed to the outside world, where drug abuse and alcoholism cease to exist. “If we let these people have their guns on campus, we’ll simply revert to the Wild West, with shootouts on every corner over simple arguments.” (Clark) Just like those nasty corner-shootouts that happen across the state of Texas, which is a Shall Issue concealed handgun licensing state.

These assertions need to be backed up by statistics, not simply stated. Cite studies which show that police miss a large percentage of shots at perps; cite studies about college alcoholism versus real-world alcoholism; cite crime statistics from Texas. We may know these things to be true, but formal writing requires evidence of this kind. It also requires that you write in a very formal manner:

Those who preach that “more guns is not a solution” have probably never researched what is involved with obtaining a CHL, or even had the opportunity to work with a firearm. What good is it to have people stammering against the natural right of self defense when they themselves have no real experience with what they are fighting so vehemently against?

"Preach" and "stammering against" suggest value judgments rather than presenting cold hard facts.

I don't want to go through the whole thing, but I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that you got the grade you did because the professor is against guns. If you still disagree with him, I suggest going to his office and asking for specific examples of where you could have improved on the paper. You can even ask for a grading breakdown - what percentage is based on spelling/grammar, what percentage is based on argument construction, etc. The truth is, most students don't want a detailed critique of their work (and profs don't have time to do detailed work on every single paper every time) and so a couple of sentences is all that is done. But students who DO care and want a more detailed explanation (e.g. - YOU) are free to ask for more detail.

And, I agree with earlier posters that you will want to keep your comments short and topical, if you indeed send them to him at all. I would suggest instead going to his office hours and meeting with him about it. That way you can have a meaningful discussion rather than just exchanging notes, which could be easily misunderstood, especially since he has different views than you do.

EDIT: Just saw your reply that the guy is a TA. My points are still valid, though.

Deer Hunter
April 25, 2008, 04:28 PM
I'll agree with you that the paper is not the best in the world. I should have read through it more, and the citations that I did have through the paper showed statistics from the FBI and CHL holders when compared against violent crimes committed by non CHL holders. These were compiled by William E. Sturdevant. My research may not have been the best, but it was there.

I get preachy in my papers occasionally. Sometimes I don't see it, sometimes I do. When I catch it, I fix it. When I don't, it's usually small. I've read over that paper and yes it needs some things done to it. When Finals are over I plan on revising a couple of my papers.

Tarvis
April 25, 2008, 04:33 PM
Your rebuttal was good, albeit your choice of semantics may have been a little to emotionally charged. I think the biggest problem is the liberals' grasp on the school system. In 3 years of college, I only had 3 or 4 conservative teachers.

Why is it that liberals refuse to accept a valid point when it contradicts thier perspective?

bowl443
April 25, 2008, 04:36 PM
but what if you were describing some property you were interested in?

Alright alright, you got me. Like my dad always says, "It's what I mean, not what I say."

bogie
April 25, 2008, 04:38 PM
Have you fired the rebuttal off yet?

I just loaded the original paper in Word, and man, but I could bleed all over it...

Let's see the rebuttal in one chunk... I think the thing you need to concentrate on is that the guy is penalizing you because he feels his "opinion" trumps your facts. Problem is, you tossed in a LOT of hyperbole-type stuff, which shadows some of your fact cites...

Treo
April 25, 2008, 04:40 PM
Ok , having read the paper I saw; poor paragraph structure, several mis-spellings & a few typos. I didn't see a single quoted source in the whole paper & I thought the paper was very casually written.

I'd say high C low B

I'm not a professional writer but I did get an A in Comp II

Deer Hunter
April 25, 2008, 04:47 PM
As I said before, my original research paper wasn't the best in the world. I did Ready Writing UIL contests in high school, which generally ruined my paragraph structure (which I believe to be overrated anyway, damned TAKS test). There was a quoted source, althought I relied heavily on the citations.

But that's not what I'm slightly peeved over.

This teacher has told the class numerous times that he's not grading on grammar and he lets paragraph structure slide. He wants the content, since he believes that is the most important thing.

So when he hands me my paper with no explaination other than his rebuttal, it pissed me off.

bogie
April 25, 2008, 04:52 PM
Here's a quick hack at the first portion... comments ref'ed at end...

=========
Concealed Carry on Campus: The Responsibility of Self Defense

There was a young chemistry major who attended a major university in Texas, a university that enjoyed yelling immensely. This student, a sophomore, lived in an off-campus apartment complex a quarter-mile from campus. Every Thursday, after eating an early dinner, this student would walk to a 6:00 P.M. chemistry lab. While walking to the lab one night, the student stopped for traffic, hurriedly pressing the WALK button on the traffic-light post. A group of people, also students, waited on the other side of the street, eagerly eyeing the red hand and waiting for their chance to traverse the street. The Chemistry student, while gingerly watching the red hand, did not hear the stranger creeping up from behind. The student does not hear the metallic locking sound of a knife opening. However, the student does hear the command that leaves the stranger’s lips. “Empty out your pockets!” the stranger says; these words chill the student horridly. The student turns to see the knife and the face of the stranger, shrouded by a university-emblazoned hoodie. The student’s heart-rate drops, then takes off like a rocket. Sweat beads in the student’s armpits and across the student’s brow. The student takes a step back, looking toward the street that has just cleared of traffic as a greenish-white stick figure appears on the opposite light post. The stranger takes a step closer, pushing the knife towards the student’s turned face. The student’s peripheral vision catches a glimpse of the knife’s blade. The student begins to run, faster than the student had ever ran in the past. From across the street, the greenish-white stick figure has been joined by the crowd of students, all urging the student on. “Run! You can make it!” they cry. The student can almost feel the hot breath of the stranger bearing down upon the student’s neck. Images of police-tape and body-bags encourage the student’s rubbery legs to push on. Just as the stranger is about to grab the student’s jacket, the student strides onto the sidewalk. Above the student is a large sign, welcoming everyone to their institute of higher learning. The student stares breathlessly at the assailant, whom is standing two feet from the sidewalk in the bike lane. The stranger then begins to stomp their[CU1] feet violently, closing his knife as he does, and storms back across the street, disappearing behind an overgrown bush. The group of students then converge on the chemistry major, offering their congratulations. The student then bids them a farewell and continues on into the campus, grateful to be free from the malicious forces of the outside world.


[CU2]Sound flawed? That’s because it is. Universities across the country have fallen under a spell of blinded assuredness, one that assumes that universities are above crime, corruption, and violence. A&M did not escape the blight[CU3], insisting that a few lighted emergency phones and an ill-trained police force is[CU4] more than enough to protect every student the university enrolls[CU5]. However, thanks to the federal clery act, we can see that life on campus is just as dangerous as life away from campus. A&M, as well as other universities, would[CU6] benefit greatly if their[CU7] administrators would [CU8]simply acknowledge the fact that their[CU9] campuses are not the bastions of peace [CU10]we, as students, are told[CU11] to believe. In that same thought process, A&M should rethink their “No Guns On Campus” policy (as defined in Penal Code Section 46.05(a)). ("TITLE 10") [CU12]A “No Guns” rule works just as well as a “No Rape”,[CU13] “No Stealing”, “No Cheating“, or “No Fighting” rule. A person who is willing to break the law one way (stealing, sexual assault/aggravated assault and battery, etc) is not discouraged from bringing a weapon to a “weapons free” zone. And since this is the case, criminals will always be better fit [CU14]to survive an encounter with a law-abiding citizen/student when that citizen/student has been meticulously de-clawed by ridiculous feel-good[CU15] legislation. We, as students, cannot rely on the police at all times, and therefore must demand the ability to take responsibility for our own safety.


There are many arguments against [CU16]letting qualified, licensed individuals carry their tools on campus. One very simply states that “More guns isn’t the solution!” (Kingsbury ) Well, then we had better starts [CU17]by disarming all police and special response teams. “The police are the only people qualified enough to carry such a dangerous weapon!“ (Peterson ) Show me an officer on campus that can consistently place accurate shots on your standard torso target at 25 yards and I’ll show you an avian swine.[CU18] “Campuses are full of drugs and alcohol abuse, no place for immature students to carry firearms.“ (Gill-Austern) As opposed to the outside world, where drug abuse and alcoholism cease to exist.[CU19] “If we let these people have their guns on campus, we’ll simply revert to the Wild West, with shootouts on every corner over simple arguments.” (Clark) Just like those nasty corner-shootouts that happen across the state of Texas, which is a Shall Issue concealed handgun licensing state. [CU20][CU21]All of these arguments have been presented against allowing citizens to carry on campuses. However, it hasn’t [CU22]stopped violence from occurring, nor has it stopped criminals from carrying weapons onto campus.


“More guns isn’t the solution!“ A mantra that has been heard from those against carrying on campus. [CU23]It’s voiced by certain police officers[CU24], parents, students, and faculty. These people feel that if we “flooded” [CU25]the campuses with guns, more shootings would occur. This argument is flawed since it does not take into account the amount of training and places every single person who carries a concealed tool daily into a single category. These people view everyone with a concealed handgun permit as a liability to society, an ill-trained and trigger-happy danger to those around them. However, such ridiculous[CU26] stereotyping does not stand true. First[CU27], to obtain a concealed carry permit in Texas, you must sign up [CU28]to take a 12 hour class, which costs $150, not including pistol or ammunition. This class covered all legal aspects of carrying a concealed weapon. This class included[CU29] written tests, live-fire exercises, role-playing portions, and non-violent conflict resolution strategies. Safety is the biggest concern taught in this class.(KR Training) Also, those who sign up for such a class usually already have experience with a firearm. Perhaps it is with hunting, competition shooting, casual target shooting, or in some cases all three. Those who pass the tests and obtain their concealed carry permit (CHL) are anything but ill-trained. Those who preach that “more guns is not a solution” have probably never researched what is involved with obtaining a CHL, or even[CU30] had the opportunity to work with a firearm. What good is it to have people stammering against the natural right of self defense when they themselves have no real experience with what they are fighting so vehemently against?[CU31]

“The police are the only people qualified enough to own such a dangerous weapon!“ This remark is mostly voiced by those who place their and their family’s safety in the hands of a 911 operator. It is rare that a police officer would[CU32] have to unholster his duty pistol and[CU33] fire upon a threat. Because of this, police officer training has switched [CU34]to apprehension techniques. In some departments, officers are not graded on whether or not they can accurately fire upon a target.(Robinson) The reasoning behind this lack of firearms proficiency with your average police officer is due to the reliance on quick-response teams, such as S.W.A.T. These teams are brought in when a threat arises that is assessed to be beyond your average police officer’s ability to handle. However, our reliance on the police, or anyone else other than ourselves for that matter, has caused complacency in our society. We must all remember that the police, no matter how well trained or speedy they are, do not prevent crime. They never have, and unless Spielberg is a seer, never will. Police may sometimes deter crime with their presence, but the police exist to pick up the pieces after the law has been broken. In fact, the supreme court has ruled numerous times that the police are not required to protect the citizens of this country.(Kasler)


Because the police have no general duty to protect individuals, judicial remedies are not available for their failure to protect. In other words, if someone is injured because they expected but did not receive police protection, they cannot recover damages by suing (except in very special cases, explained below). Despite a long history of such failed attempts, however, many, people persist in believing the police are obligated to protect them, attempt to recover when no protection was forthcoming, and are emotionally demoralized when the recovery fails. Legal annals abound with such cases. (Kasler)


“When seconds count, the police are only minutes away”, a saying that has made its rounds during this debate. Recently, there was a shooting at Virginia Beach. Three people died, while three others were injured. The attack was reported to the police at 5:00 P.M. that day. It wasn’t until two hours later that the police had found out where the murderer was, and that was when the police surrounded the apartment complex. (Virginia) This is not anecdotal. A simple search for newspaper reports of police action during shootings, stabbings, or blunt-object-beatings will show that the police arrive long after the crime has been committed. The police are no one’s personal security guard. No university could ever have enough of a police presence and still maintain their university to prevent crime from being committed on their grounds. Those who proclaim the police proficient enough for this issue unwittingly wish for a state of martial law at our universities, which are supposedly bastions of open-mindedness and acceptance of diversity.


“Campuses are full of drugs and alcohol abuse, no place for immature students to have firearms.“ This attack is as insulting as it is presumptuous. Starting with the obvious, if universities have such a strict policy on drug and alcohol abuse, how is it that there is still such abuse within their walls? Perhaps it is because those rules do not stop drugs from being used on campus, nor does it stop underage drinking from occurring on campus. In this same breath, we can also agree that just because there is a “no guns on campus” rule does not mean it will be followed. In a way, this damages the argument against weapons on campus. Also, it against makes the assumption that all students are the same. It states that we are all immature, pot-smoking, binge-drinking, ruffians only in college to have a good time. How could we possibly be trusted with our own safety? The arrogance of this argument defies logic, however those in favor of campus carry understand that those in possession of a CHL are not your average wild, out of control college stereotypes. They are a varied group of individuals whom value their lives enough do shoulder the responsibility of their own self defense.


“If we let these people have their guns on campus, we’ll simply revert to the Wild West, with shootouts on every corner over simple arguments.” This was a common argument against the CHL program getting started in Texas, along with may other states. After the CHL bill was passed, those fighting the bill waited for the streets to run red with the blood of innocent citizens, callously shot down by enraged individuals motivated by their inanimate objects. However, this was not the case. The opposite was true. Violent crime lowered, and continued to as more people obtained their CHL. In fact, statistics show that CHL holders are less likely to break the law than non CHL holders of the same age. The numbers actually show us that males in Texas, as of 2001, were 7.7 times more likely to be arrested for violent crimes, such as murder, rape, robbery, and assault than a CHL holder. For females, the numbers showed that those without a CHL were 7.5 times more likely to commit these illegal acts. (William) Opponents to students carrying on campus ignore these facts and continue to insist that CHL holders, who carry their concealed tools to the grocery store, to the mall, to the movie theatre, and at home would suddenly and wildly lash out at fellow students if allowed to carry on campus. People tend to anthropomorphize firearms, citing what they view on TV or equating them with what certain criminal people have used them for. Because of this, it is believed that owning a firearm changes the owner’s perception and causes reckless and dangerous activities. As the statistics show, this is not the case.


A sign depicting a crude silhouette of a gun within a red circle cut diagonal across the silhouette will not stop someone from taking a firearm onto school grounds and using it against the students. A clear example was forwarded to every student at Texas A&M October 12, 2007. The Federal Clery Act emails sent to our neo.tamu accounts inform the students of illegal activities that the police have thought best to show the students. That email details the October 6th account of a young girl who was held up by two men, one with a pistol. The student was walking through parking lot 40, on the south side of campus, when she was approached from behind by the two men. After taking her purse, they made off quickly. (TAMU) These men were there to violate the law. They did not care about the rights of that student who lost her purse, nor did they care if there was a police presence on campus. So why then should they care for the “no weapons on campus” rule? One of these men had a firearm, which he used to intimidate the helpless student into getting what he wanted. Every single one of the Federal Clery Act emails should be a wake-up call to those who think they could never be victims.

CHL holders are rational, law abiding citizens who shoulder the responsibility of their own safety every day. They are the people behind you in line at Wal-mart, those you meet at the gas-station pumping gas, and those enjoying the movie two rows in front of you. CHL holders carry their tools everywhere, except when barred from doing so. Rules like “No guns on campus” strip law-abiding citizens of their right to proper self-defense. These rules only apply to those that comply with the law. So if the police cannot stop these things from happening, and the rules established to try and protect the students only leave them defenseless, what can campuses do? To combat the shadows cast by the tombstones of victims from various school shootings across the country, A&M decided it was best to place more lighted emergency phone-stations around campus. It was a simple feel-good move aimed at quelling the restlessness of its students. Simple feel-good legislation will not stop crime. The responsibility of safety lies strictly in the hands of the individual. Stripping students and faculty CHL rights on campus robs them of a chance to defend themselves properly. The police cannot protect us. Signs and laws cannot protect us. Disarmed and helpless, we will continue to be preyed upon by the dredges of society: The rapists, the burglars, the petty thieves, and the murderous sociopaths. It is time that campus officials take notice to the rights of the students and the faculty. It is time that they allow us the proper means of defense instead of forcing us to assume the role of the victim. It is time you to choose: Victim or Survivor?










Sources
"TITLE 10. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC HEALTH, SAFETY, AND MORALS." 6 Apr 2008 <http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes....000046.00.htm >.


Kingsbury, Laura. "Indiana law enforcement officials discuss firearms on campus." The Penn 3/4/08 <http://media.www.thepenn.org/media/s...8/03/04/News/I ndiana.Law.Enforcement.Officials.Discuss.Firearms.On.Campus- 3248671.shtml>.

Peterson, Hayley . "Bill to allow firearm possession on campus." Red and Black 4/2/08 <http://media.www.redandblack.com/med...s/2008/04/02/N ews/Bill-To.Allow.Firearm.Possession.On.Campus-3296491.shtml>.


Gill-Austern, Maggie. "Girls, guys and Glocks?." Sun Journal 03 09 2008 <http://www.sunjournal.com/story/255421-3/bsection/Girls_guys_and_Glocks/>.


Clark, Julie. "Concealing weapons would add increased campus safety risk." The Aubourn Plainsman 04 03 2008 <http://www.theplainsman.com/front/2008/apr- 03/campus_gun_bill_shot_down_state_senate>.

KR Training, "Texas Concealed Handgun License Training ." KR Training <http://www.krtraining.com/KRTraining/Classes/chlnew.html>.

Robinson, Jim. "Jackson Police Officers Firearms Testing Below Standard." Expert Witness News 05 11 2007 <http://www.expertwitnessblog.com/200...ers_firearms_t esting_below_standards.html>.

Kasler, Peter. "Police Have No Duty To Protect Individuals." 05 11 2007 <http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/kasler-protection.html>.

Virginia, "3 dead, 3 injured in Va. Beach shooting." In Rich 03 20 2008 <http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.a...TD-2008-03-20- 0170.html>.

Sturdevant,, William . "An Analysis Of The Arrest Rate Of Texas Concealed Handgun License Holders As Compared To The Arrest Rate Of The Entire Texas Population 1996 - 1998, Revised to include 1999 and 2000 data." 08 24 2001 <http://www.txchia.org/sturdevant2000.htm>.

Texas A&M University, "Theft." Federal Clery Act 10 12 2007
<neo.tamu.edu>.
[CU1]Should be “his”
[CU2]Needed a stronger “lead.” Lose the novel, or slice it down hard…
[CU3]Poor choice of words – I’d look on it more as a “fad”
[CU4]“are”
[CU5]In what? The Dept. of Redundancy Department?
[CU6]“will”
[CU7]delete
[CU8]Delete – and “simply” borders on hyperbole.
[CU9]delete
[CU10]“, which”
[CU11]“led” or “instructed”
[CU12]Don’t know what cite method – should period follow last paren?
[CU13]Comma should be inside quotes.
[CU14]“more likely”
[CU15]hyperbole
[CU16]Is this supposed to be persuasive? If you feel obliged to list arguments against your position, you need to effectively counter them.
[CU17]Do I even need to says anything about this?
[CU18]Cute. And, while I admit that I hate shooting next to most cops (unsafe, bad shots, etc.) you need to cite or drop it… Instead, mention situations like Diallo or Bell…
[CU19]More cute, more hyperbole.
[CU20]I’d have broken his up into bulleted thoughts – soundbites…
[CU21]Cute hype. You need cites/numbers… I’m from Missouri – show me.
[CU22]“they have not”
[CU23]Sentence structure fault
[CU24]Should have replaced with “administrators.” Officers on the street are generally pro-ccw – but management doesn’t want to admit that they cannot deal.
[CU25]Lose the “finger quote” speech pattern – and the hype.
[CU26]Lose the hyperbole.
[CU27]Where is “Second?” Needs para break before.
[CU28]Signing up doesn’t cut it – you must complete the class.
[CU29]Should have been “covers” and “includes”
[CU30]Cut – don’t need the word.
[CU31]Never ask a question that (a) you do not immediately answer; or (b) know how your audience will answer.
[CU32]Should be “will”
[CU33]Should be “pistol, much less fire…”
[CU34]“emphasizes”

Deer Hunter
April 25, 2008, 04:54 PM
Thanks Bogie, I'll look into revising it soon. I have had plans to do so, and I should have had someone else read over it (my sister used my mother, who is an English teacher. I havn't sunk that low yet...)

but yes, I know it's not great. I just wanted something more than "your opinion is wrong!" to explain the grade.

In any case, to those of you who took the part where I said "You're a nerd, you should know this" to him. If you knew the guy, you'd know he says it all the time. His office has Buffy the Vampire Slayer comics covering the walls right next to X men. It's a joke that we use quite often.

BruceRDucer
April 25, 2008, 04:56 PM
"But really, are you there to protect me instead? If you hear gunshots in a neighboring classroom are you going to run into help me, to be a big-ass hero? Or should I carry a handgun in case one of my students go berserk?"

RE: "big-ass hero"

Isn't that called HYPERBOLE?

The point being that one is not a "hero" nor a "big ass"; we just aim to defend ourselves and perhaps others.

I noticed this right off.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I am sympathetic to studends who attend schools and attempt serious rational debate. I whatched my son do it. I've also seen bright people shot down repeatedly by BIASED teachers.

/:what:


"If you want that A you'd better learn to mouth the party line. That's just the way it is in modern academia. Independent thought is NOT rewarded. In fact they find it terrifying."------COSMOLINE
__________________

bogie
April 25, 2008, 05:12 PM
It's all about an option...

No Choice = No Chance...

Dude, illustrate the next one with some of Oleg's images...

czdavid
April 25, 2008, 05:19 PM
I had a teacher last semester who would, without explanation, dock me points on an assignment. Did that frustrate me? Of course it did! Did I take it up with the chair? No point in that. That was his way of grading. Many teachers grade on content not sentence structure. To them, if you can't properly structure a paper by the time you hit college, why waste time correcting the problem -- they want content. If he didn't see something he wanted (papers are objective) he had every right to dock you points. It's not fun, but it's how college is. Take your beating and let it slide. There's always next time.

Besides, an 85 on a paper is not a poor grade -- just work harder on any more papers and your tests and final.

Funderb
April 25, 2008, 05:25 PM
A paper cannot be awarded an A if it is not educated, objective, and impersonal. Colloquialisms must be avoided, and will lose points. 85 is fair,

Mr. Designer
April 25, 2008, 05:43 PM
I wouldn't waste my time. The guys a dummy and for being an English teacher writes like a dummy.

Sage of Seattle
April 25, 2008, 05:43 PM
Good paper, but you answered criticism with opinion rather than verifiable fact
-R. Valedez

Reynaldo,

Thank you for your thoughtful and in-depth response to my term paper. When I have a few spare moments I will, of course, read it.

In the meantime, could you please briefly point out where I did not adequately quote facts to support my hypotheses? I didn't see any spelling or grammatical corrections in my paper, yet I received an 84 so I'm a bit confused on this point.

I look forward to your prompt reply.

-DH

Fedaykin
April 25, 2008, 06:01 PM
For those that keep pointing out that the grade was fair for the paper according to the grammar and structure... HE KNOWS. The point is that professor d-bag graded by his opinion rather than grading the paper like he's supposed to. He's supposed to detail errors and possibly note ways that it could be improved other than "change your opinion to what mine is".

patentmike
April 25, 2008, 06:05 PM
This teacher has told the class numerous times that he's not grading on grammar and he lets paragraph structure slide. He wants the content, since he believes that is the most important thing.

They get to charge tuition for that?
I haven't read it, but I'm sure it's a good paper. - send me a check too.

Deer Hunter
April 25, 2008, 06:19 PM
Thanks Fedaykin.

I sent a copy of it as well as my works cited to one of the higher-ups in the college of English. I told them that I wanted input on it and I only slightly mentioned the rebuttal (nothing about it). I did not include my instructor's name or the content of the paper. I asked to do it for me since I'll be working in the student writing center next semester and needed the input.

We'll see how it goes.

Kind of Blued
April 25, 2008, 06:19 PM
This is like watching a movie where the antagonist beats his beautiful wife. I just want to get in there and (in this case, verbally) kick some ass. I would have written it differently, and it would have taken me HOURS, but damn it would be good.

You did a good job nonetheless. You are much more mature than your teacher, and perhaps that is a good thing. Between you two, I'd much rather have you carrying a gun.

This got my blood boiling a bit. I'm gonna go take a shower... :)

Ithaca37
April 25, 2008, 06:34 PM
You check out the students for concealed carry website. There are useful FACTS on there. I didn't read the whole thing, but there were numerous passages that relied on opinion. Use facts and figures. It shouldn't take more than 30min to find all of the info you need to reinforce your point. That data is out there.

bogie
April 25, 2008, 06:38 PM
Yeah, and don't cite the sccc website - cite who THEY cite... Especially if it is government sources like FBI, etc...

CBS220
April 25, 2008, 06:47 PM
While I cannot comment on the professor himself- he has a different opinion than you, one that I would think as well as yourself was wrong- if you didn't back up your assertions with anything other than opinions (As far, far, far too many pro-gun college and highschool papers do) then you deserved to lose points.

Honestly, I can pretty much picture your paper... because one gets posted on here about every week. The paper receives all sorts of accolades from your peers on THR, but that doesn't make it a good paper. That just means we agree with the sentiment.

Unless you're calling the shots, there is a nice rule with paper writing- assume nothing. Never jump to a conclusion without concrete facts that are supported by reputable sources. You cannot simply conclude that "A+B=C" without more evidence than most pro gun writers use.

For all the people taking abrasion at the way that the professor wrote back, he sounds like the sort of guy you might disagree with, but an all around decent person. "Bad ass" and "Big ass" are not exactly rare words in this day and age, and without knowing the professor we have no way of knowing exactly how he may have meant them; or what image that the OP has presented to the professor of himself.

Worst comes to worst, invite the Prof shooting.

An 85 is no big deal, anyway. As a straight-A sort of person myself, I think you're just looking for an excuse as to why you didn't get the grade you wanted.

Daemon688
April 25, 2008, 07:23 PM
Funny, I have written similar pro-gun papers when I took a class on the holocaust. I got an A in that class even though it was made clear in grading one of my papers that they disagreed with some of my views. Yet, I have never received a two page rebuttal from a professor, ever.

Writing a paper requires: Having reputable sources, using logical, objective, non-emotional arguments. Another thing to do is address any other counter-arguments the other side may have.

Funny thing about your professor. Can't comment on your grade, but given the quotes, I think he lacks any sort of professionalism. And his "rebuttal" was emotion based based "what if" type of arguments, just like Paul Helmke.

At the end of the day, I'm not here to be a big ass hero. I'm not here to protect everyone else. I'm here to protect MY life. Me stopping a shooter from killing others is only a side benefit. If someone doesn't feel the need to defend themselves then so be it.

I just hope your professor has no insurance of any kind. I mean what kind of person needs insurance when they aren't worried about anything going wrong? :D


P.S. In Minnesota about one/two years ago a graduate student went out to Lakestreet to have dinner with his mother. After dinner while walking back to their car, they were mugged by two individuals. They gave up their belongings. Was that the end of it? Nope, the son got shot twice in the head. Since he made specific mention of being mugged, here's a real life example of what happens even when you do comply.

http://wcco.com/topstories/Michael.Zebuhr.Uptown.2.356591.html

Gordon Fink
April 25, 2008, 07:30 PM
I just wanted something more than “your opinion is wrong!” to explain the grade.

Your citations were very weak. This is probably something of what he meant by “you answered criticism with opinion rather than verifiable fact.” However, he also said it that was a good paper and gave you a decent grade.

~G. Fink

Treo
April 25, 2008, 07:51 PM
As a 42 Y/O returning to the classroom after 25 years ,I am truly amazed at the academic level of my fellow students. They don't know basic grammar, they don't know geography ( I go to a small private college in Colorado Springs). In one class during a discussion of current events we had two students that DID NOT KNOW that A. Colorado even had a capitol city & B. were unaware that it was Denver. Those who live in the Springs should be familiar W/ "The Scar". It's an old strip mining claim west of the city that is slowly being reclaimed

I was sitting in class one morning when an evironmental science teacher informed us that A. The Scar was waaaay above the timberline B. An old coal mine. and that C. It was beyond hope that it anything would ever grow there again.

In front of the whole class I opened the blinds on a west facing window, pointed out that the whole scar was green , that there were trees along the top of it & that it was mostly red granite ( not coal) . The professor looked out the window said I didn't know what I was talking about & continued his lecture.
That's when I decide it wasn't worth my time to argue.

Back on topic it was a B (at best) paper anyway you grade it. FIDO

obxned
April 25, 2008, 07:59 PM
This is exactly what you should expect from college professors. I don't know how they manage to get all those fancy degrees without ever studying history or civics. They are all idiot savants, they poses knowledge or skill to an extraordinary degree at one specific thing, but are quite helpless and hopeless at all else in the real world.

KelVarnson
April 25, 2008, 08:32 PM
I stopped reading when you called him a nerd. I don't think you are going to win this one, with tactics like that.

Deer Hunter
April 25, 2008, 08:51 PM
I explained that part ealier. It's an in-class thing. He'll openly admit to it and we have our laugh. That part was a joke for him, because one day we spent the entire class period discussing why Batman was better than Superman.

And for the last time, the grade doesn't matter anymore. I hope I'll still have an A, but if not, well I still have a chance at med school either way.

bogie
April 25, 2008, 08:54 PM
They are all idiot savants, they poses knowledge or skill to an extraordinary degree at one specific thing, but are quite helpless and hopeless at all else in the real world.

Well, some of us idiot savants "possess" quite a bit of knowledge/skills in a wide variety of areas...

An oui kin spel two.

Oana
April 25, 2008, 09:03 PM
How old is this professor? "Big-**s hero" isn't a professional way of speaking to a student. And I find it ironic that he proceeds to rebut your opinion with one of his own, and absolutely ZERO sources. I'd point that out to him for certain.

I didn't read your original paper - although IIRC I read some of it the first time you posted - but I see that you did cite a number of items. Certainly more than he did. Depending on the paper's requirements, 85 isn't too bad - a B, right? I'm not sure I'd push for an A or anything, but asking him to point out specific issues wouldn't be out of line.

You being the nerd you are I would have hoped you could have seen that.

Edited - never mind, the comment was explained...

And yeah, college students and teachers can be remarkably uninformed and illogical. Not that I'm a bastion of knowledge, but sometimes it's amazing.

Soybomb
April 25, 2008, 09:12 PM
From what you've posted of his writing I can say that I'd never turn in work that poor as an undergrad. I'd have expected better from a professor.

Honestly, I can pretty much picture your paper... because one gets posted on here about every week. The paper receives all sorts of accolades from your peers on THR, but that doesn't make it a good paper. That just means we agree with the sentiment.
We're ovbiously biased but as the guy's english instructor his first job is to teach his students to be better writers. The time he spent writing a paper preaching his own views to his student would have been much better spent marking the student's paper up to point out errors.

Oana
April 25, 2008, 09:13 PM
This teacher has told the class numerous times that he's not grading on grammar and he lets paragraph structure slide. He wants the content, since he believes that is the most important thing.


:uhoh: Run away, run away!

I hate it when teachers just say they want "content" without proper grammar. In elementary school, that's peachy, as long as they're still learning. But in COLLEGE?

neviander
April 25, 2008, 09:30 PM
This "teacher" keeps on accusing you of wanting to be a hero. People that are given the title "hero" are typically not looking for that status when they accomplish, whatever it is that they accomplish, it just happens that way, and the people that are looking to be "heros" are mostly seen as hypocrites and self promoters.

Oy, when I read stuff like this I just have to keep telling myself "remain calm, you can't help someone that doesn't want to be helped". :banghead:

Doggy Daddy
April 25, 2008, 10:01 PM
Quote:
But really, are you there to protect me instead? If you hear gunshots in a neighboring classroom are you going to run into help me, to be a big-ass hero? Or should I carry a handgun in case one of my students go berserk?

As soon as I read the bold part above, I knew this English teacher needed a career change. :banghead:

sniper5
April 25, 2008, 10:16 PM
Well, I guess I lucked out. When I was back in school for a career change I took a course in World Literature. Read all the old stuff-Beowulf, Odyssey, Song of Roland, stuff like that. Found out my professor shot 3 position rifle and silhouette pistol, and on my last day we got deeply involved in a discussion on proper sling tension in prone after finals. We discussed combat theory and practice openly in class during discussions of several novels. We were both about the same age (mid 40's). The kids pretty much kept their mouths shut. Got an A in the course and he told me it was a pleasure to have me in the class.

That's in a college in the PRK. People are different everywhere. Just have to take them as they come.

Harold Mayo
April 26, 2008, 03:14 AM
Not much of a professor you have there.

jashobeam
April 26, 2008, 04:39 AM
Here are a couple of basic errors in your paper that Bogie did not mention. First, and most obviously incorrect, you switch tenses--from past to present. Second, you refer to the Chemistry major as "student" far too often.

There was a young chemistry major who attended (PAST TENSE) a major university in Texas, a university that enjoyed yelling immensely. This student, a sophomore, lived (PAST TENSE) in an off-campus apartment complex a quarter-mile from campus. Every Thursday, after eating an early dinner, this student would walk to a 6:00 P.M. chemistry lab. While walking to the lab one night, the student stopped (PAST TENSE) for traffic, hurriedly pressing the WALK button on the traffic-light post. A group of people, also students, waited (PAST TENSE) on the other side of the street, eagerly eyeing the red hand and waiting for their chance to traverse the street. The Chemistry student, while gingerly watching the red hand, did (PAST TENSE) not hear the stranger creeping up from behind. The student does not hear (NOW PRESENT TENSE)the metallic locking sound of a knife opening. However, the student does hear (PRESENT TENSE) the command that leaves the stranger’s lips. “Empty out your pockets!” the stranger says (PRESENT TENSE); these words chill (PRESENT TENSE) the student horridly. The student turns (PRESENT TENSE, ETC.) to see the knife and the face of the stranger, shrouded by a university-emblazoned hoodie. The student’s heart-rate drops, then takes off like a rocket. Sweat beads in the student’s armpits and across the student’s brow. The student takes a step back, looking toward the street that has just cleared of traffic as a greenish-white stick figure appears on the opposite light post. The stranger takes a step closer, pushing the knife towards the student’s turned face. The student’s peripheral vision catches a glimpse of the knife’s blade. The student begins to run, faster than the student had ever ran in the past. From across the street, the greenish-white stick figure has been joined by the crowd of students, all urging the student on. “Run! You can make it!” they cry

Keeping him nameless and calling him "the student" is fine, but you passed up many opportunities to use pronouns (he, his, him) where you not only could have, but should have. Here is an example:

The student's heart-rate drops, then takes off like a rocket. Sweat beads in his armpits and across his brow. He takes a step back....

Also, you could have substituted "Chemistry major" or "sophomore" for "student". If it were my paper and I was bent on calling him "student", I would have referred to the "group of people" as classmates not "students".

Deer Hunter
April 26, 2008, 09:29 PM
Ok guys.

Got an email from the teacher.

So let's focus on the encounter itself and leave my poorly written, grammatically wrong, weakly cited, C- paper alone for one moment and look at the response. It's alright. Better than I thought.

I like how you used my closing statement back on me, well played.
I never meant that you are paranoid, I meant that people are paranoid and do dumb things when they are scared, like shoot loved ones, i got that statistic from somewhere long ago (like I said, I'm old). Maybe it's changed by now.

I never meant to imply that it was your responsibility to protect people, just that you seem to be implying that if people at Virginia Tech had concealed weapons the situation would have ended differently. What I understand now is that you meant, if the possibility of people having guns was there, then the shooter would have thought twice about going in.
Gunfights are not a duel, what I was trying to say is that he/she is going to squeeze off a few shots before you unholster and put them down. Maybe you are really fast, like you said, I don't have much experience with guns. Maybe you can put him down before he gets you or whoever he was shooting at.

Sorry, I am trying not to turn this into another lecture. You are a smart kid, you have good arguments and logic and you have actually thought about your beliefs unlike some people who just accept what others tell them. That is why your opinion matters to me. It's okay that we disagree, but I want you to understand why I believe what I believe. You may think I am full of ****, but I don't want you to think that I am just spouting off about things I haven't really thought about. Who knows, maybe you still do think that. Not much I can do about it. But I am glad we could talk, that we could discuss things even if ultimatley neither one of us changed our minds. I hope that my letter wasn't the reason you took off from class. That was not my intent. I hope you got some work done on your papers and stuff for other classes.

I think I can call you this now, but be well my friend. It was good having you in class. All the best in the future and I hope you will keep in contact. I might just take you up on you offer to go shooting this summer.
-Rey

(Also, not to be melodramatic, but I would try and stop somebody who came into our class with the intention to shoot one of my students, even if it meant dying. I mean, that's what teachers are supposed to do, isn't it? Maybe it is my naivete, but I think most of us would.)

I wont give my response until I hear what you guys have to say about this. My response is friendly. :) Especially about the whole "taking him shooting" bit.

sacp81170a
April 26, 2008, 09:33 PM
I would try and stop somebody who came into our class with the intention to shoot one of my students, even if it meant dying.

What if having the correct tool to stop someone with the intention of shooting one of your students meant you wouldn't have to die?

bogie
April 26, 2008, 09:36 PM
this guy -really- needs to go to the range.

10/22 with a 50 round magazine for starters, with shoot-n-see targets.

Harold Mayo
April 26, 2008, 09:43 PM
You can never win in an argument where the other guy is ignorant of the truth.

Doggy Daddy
April 26, 2008, 09:45 PM
I think it would enlighten him to come here and read this thread (all 3 parts): Confessions of An Anti (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=358269)

He might see a bit of himself in it. But then, he'll also see what you've written about your essay. :D

akodo
April 26, 2008, 10:18 PM
What is your final goal?

A. Convert an anti
B. Be graded on the quality of work (content, not grammar/spelling) rather than being graded on if your opinions match?

If it is A, continue the exchange of ideas.

If it is B grab the following information

It's okay that we disagree, but I want you to understand why I believe what I believe.

Sir

I am a paying student. I am here to learn, you are being paid to teach me. I am NOT paying to understand your beliefs of any issue beyond english composition. I don't care what your favorite spice girls song is, or your favorite ice cream flavor.

The fact that you gave only a single line detailing where I need to improve, yet were able to invest the time to write 2 pages debating the particular issue I chose to write about causes me to fear you gave me the 85 based on the conflicts of beliefs we have rather than the quality of the paper. Spending 2 pages of grading effort to debate my stance was a waste of time that should have beend directed to proper criticism and instruction of me and my fellow classmates.

I shouldn't be graded on "Why I love Chocolate Ice Cream" based on your prefence for strawberry.

I am sure some of the other writers here like bogie can spruce that up.

Deer Hunter
April 26, 2008, 10:22 PM
Akodo,

Right now I don't care about my grade.

Informing this guy is more important. His email is friendly, and I sent a friendly one back to him. Everything's kosher. I even asked if he'd write a letter of recomendation for the University Writing Center for me, as I need one for my application.

conw
April 26, 2008, 10:25 PM
Ahhh, Politics in the English class...I love it...as an English/Teaching double major I get this too! (Doubly!)

First off, though, I'd realize that he's likely baiting you. He is using emotional responses in hopes that you will use emotional responses, and then he will be able to refute you with opinion.

Like others said facts are the way to go. I haven't read the whole thing but here are some good starting points:

a) crime rate by CHL holders (LOW)
b) crime deterrence (DC vs surrounding area, rising crime rates in England, etc...you laid it out but weakly in my opinion)
c) Constitutional standpoint, backed up by statements from framers
d) ACTUAL tenets of Concealed Campus (I assume this is what it's about?) VS straw man soundbytes or fiction

Treo
April 26, 2008, 11:59 PM
Take the guy to the range. Let him get some experience. Try to make it a fun experience. IOW be his freind, you just might get a convert out of it.

retgarr
April 27, 2008, 12:10 AM
I'm kinda disappointed to see how hostile the responses to this teacher have been. To me it seems the guy is trying to debate a point in a very friendly way. Which is why things are less formal. The teacher I think has made it clear by his actions and manner of speaking that he has a current opinion but also has an open mind. He's not going to convince anyone by telling them how ignorant they are. And he is getting a better education by learning to convince someone in a friendly way than he would by having someone correct his spelling.
I think that counts as my .04 (gas prices have gone up ya know)

Deer Hunter
April 27, 2008, 12:18 AM
Rey,

Your rebuttal was written very quicky by you, wasn't it? You're a better writer than what you showed me in the rebuttal. Your last email shows it, even. However I wrote what I did about your rebuttal in a thirty-minute craze. Your opinions varied so drastically from mine, and perhaps if I had given you a few citations (or didn't write it while peeved) it would have sounded better. We both fell into that hole.

I wasn't angry at your opinions, but saw flawed arguments that I had to discuss openly with you. The one thing that made me angry about that last paper was the lack of red ink on it. I want you to tear my paper appart and show me how to fix it. I know it's not perfect. I've read over it numerous times now and see that I should have done that before I turned it in. It has typos, poor paragraph structure, and sentences that need revising. Also I needed to cite stronger sources (FBI databases and whatnot). I'm probably going to be working at the university writing center next semester and I want my writing to improve much more before then. That was why I was angry (that, and my grade, which means I was mostly angry at myself). However, your quickly-typed rebuttal to my stance didn't help that much, mind you.

I just hope I have given you some things to think about.

I'd like to think you are my friend. You're a smart guy, don't let anyone tell you different. I don't regret writing a rebuttal to your rebuttal, but I'm sure you don't regret openly sharing your opinions with me. That's good though.

And yes, keep in touch please. I'd like to let you see how firearms work and give you some information about them that maybe you don't have.

-Nick

(It's not melodramatic if it's the right thing)

bogie
April 27, 2008, 12:50 AM
It's okay that we disagree, but I want you to understand why I believe what I believe.

Prof, ol' buddy, ol' pal...

Consider your statement there - you are talking about "belief." Does this belief rely upon facts and hard evidence, or is it more of a superstitious belief, like many religions? People have told me that they don't believe in guns. Well, I can reach out and touch one, but I have yet to be able to reach out and touch a faery sprite - hence, I don't believe in faeries.

-insert sound of quiet thud...-

"Belief" is a hallmark of "opinion." Open your mind to other concepts.

21-26
April 27, 2008, 01:34 AM
Granted, that "rebuttal" is less than fully professional, but something that I don't think anyone's pointed out yet is that an 85 is far from a serious ding. I teach English at a SEC school (not unlike TAMU) and a student who gets an 85 from me has shown me an awful lot of good stuff. Considering that a 75 is "average" (what the majority people are) an 85 suggests that your prof has judged your work to be well above average. Getting worked up because he doesn't think your essay is exceptional (which is what an A means) strikes me as being a little bit unreasonable. Why is it somehow an insult to "only" be judged above average?

conw
April 27, 2008, 10:17 PM
I just read most of the thread, and this is a weird situation. It's so unprofessional, and not just in a folksy way, but to the point where I'd question (if I were you) the quality of the education I was receiving. They put guys like this in charge of a class?! Or is he just grading some papers? Either way...yeesh!

Also, there seems to be a strange undercurrent of passive-aggressiveness in your teacher's writing, not to mention how he seems to contradict himself ("big-ass hero" bits vs "I would protect my students" bits). I think the guy ain't quite right.

Also, everyone who is talking about "a lot"..."alright" is a much worse perversion of the English language!!!!

Draven32
April 27, 2008, 10:40 PM
When I took my general law class in college (two years ago) we had to do a term paper on an amendment to the constitution- limited to the BoR, 14th, and a few others. I'm the only person in the class that did the 2nd, and I aced it. Something to do with the 11 pages, cites, endnotes, briefs for relevant USSC cases, etc.... but then, this was a general law class, not an English class.

George Hill
April 28, 2008, 12:31 AM
You are in School. Write about how the industrial use of paper-clips and the waste that is Alaska's bridge to no-where. Do not write things that are politically polarizing. You are asking to fail if you do.

JohnMcD348
April 28, 2008, 01:21 AM
This thread brought back memories of one of my english classes from many years ago. I had a somewhat opposite experience with a teacher. Now mind you, I was in the military at teh time, I was however in an area that allowed me to be in a civilian dress and attire so I had slightly longer hair and I also had facial growth. I was also attneding the local college close to my home town that was about 80 miles from my stationed area so I was about the only full time military guy there, that I knew of.

Anywway, I had an OLD english Prof who didn't like me at all. Every thing I turned in he graded with an Iron pen. Finally, we had to write an argumentative paper on any topic we wanted. I chose to write about how protesters go about changing minds the wrong way and that protesting simply goes to harden the minds of the people they wish to change.

The Professor was very admiant that:"The first sentence has to be the gripper. It's got to make your statement and make the person want to read more!"
So my first statement, first sentence of the first Paragraph was:" I believe GreenPeace activists should be clubbed to death like Baby Seals!" I got my paper back and the grade on it looked like F+. I was so ticked I wanted to beat the old man with my paper and kill him with paper cuts from it. But I took a deep breath and approched him after class so he could explain how I had done so poorly as to get an F+. Prior to that I was getting C's and the occasional B-. He just shrugged his shoulders and asked what I was complaining about, it was an A+ not an F+ and that he didn't know I had it in me.

After that, we sat down and had a long discussion about my political views and from that pint on, my grade greatly im proved. The teacher thought I was a long haired "Hippy", his term not mine, it was the late 80's. Then he foud out I was a conservative American Pie eating flag waver and I got A's from that point on.

Too bad those days are long gone in the college system

21-26
April 28, 2008, 01:36 AM
As someone who went through a similar system, I think what we're seeing here isn't so much about the anti-gun, left-wing nature of the academy, but one of the other serious problems that English departments all across the country are refusing to address.

Your professor is a graduate assistant, which means that he is actually a student working on an advanced degree in English. Generally, such students are granted teaching fellowships to help them defray the cost of their educations and to get some on the job training for the only real career path for folks who get graduate degrees in English, i.e., teacher. The problem, however, is that over the last thirty years or so universities have realized that graduate assistants were really cheap labor--most get payed around 25% of what tenure track faculty make for doing the same job. English is one of the biggest service departments on every campus (everyone who gets a BA or BS at a liberal arts university has to take at least two and probably more like four English courses) so most English departments at research universities like TAMU tend to admit graduate students based on how many sections of 101 and 102 they need to staff rather than how many they can responsibly train and supervise.

Long story short, Valdez was wrong to include his rebuttal, but a large part of what went wrong here is that he most likely has received very little training or supervision from his department. When I was a GA most of what I knew about teaching I'd learned from movies--which is to say I didn't know a single useful thing. Luckily, I think was able to learn a few things in the ten years after graduation. Hopefully Valdez will do the same. Either way Deer Hunter got a solid B for an essay that was less than exceptional. I think, in the end, that should go in the win column. Keep up the good fight and take the guy sooting if you get the chance.

p.s.: JohnMcD348, the English teacher in me has to know--what exactly is American pie ;)

clarence222
April 28, 2008, 01:56 AM
You are in School. Write about how the industrial use of paper-clips and the waste that is Alaska's bridge to no-where. Do not write things that are politically polarizing. You are asking to fail if you do.


Micheal Jordan once mad a remark about all the game winning shots that he had made in his career, as well as the game winning shots he had missed in his career. His point was that if you try and succeed great if you give it your all and still fail, at least you tried.

Public universities are a great place to bring this type of topic up. Think of all the people that might get a chance to read this paper or any other paper like it and maybe get their minds changed.

In case any of you don't remember people who say they think like we do were in control of both congress and the white house yet very little was accomplished. Now peopl who mostly disagree with our opinions are in control of congress and there is a very good chance will have the white house next year.

My point is, we need more people who think like we do. We need to try and convince people everyday that guns are not evil. The more we convince the better off we will be. Some how I don't think we can get that job done by talking about bridges and paperclips, or any other topics. We need to quit being concerned about whether or not we will fail and just do our best trying to get more people to see our point of view. Will we convince all of those we talk to, but I personally guarantee we will not convince any of those we don't talk to.

clarence222
April 28, 2008, 02:00 AM
I changeg jobs about a year ago, since that time no less than 3 of my coworkers have become gun owners for the first time with hopefully a 4th one coming on Tuesday. 4 isn't alot at the place I work but it is better than none.

Dr. Peter Venkman
April 28, 2008, 02:15 AM
I have no idea who is saying what. Post your paper first and then the response.

Soybomb
April 28, 2008, 02:55 AM
After that, we sat down and had a long discussion about my political views and from that pint on, my grade greatly im proved. The teacher thought I was a long haired "Hippy", his term not mine, it was the late 80's. Then he foud out I was a conservative American Pie eating flag waver and I got A's from that point on.

Too bad those days are long gone in the college system
Yes who wouldn't miss dearly the days of students being graded on their political views and chumminess with the teacher more than the quality of their work ;)

Wetawd
April 28, 2008, 03:18 AM
Awesome job standing up for your beliefs:)

I'm college also and get arguments with my professors all the time.

That part that he said by carrying a gun makes you a hero instead of the cop.... in that court ruling cops are not responsible for your life, or something like that. I can't remember the exact wordage so does anybody else know?

Danus ex
April 28, 2008, 04:20 AM
21-26 seems to have been on both sides of this and offers good perspective, and I'll echo it. While in grad school, I was trained to teach writing and speech as a GA but wound up teaching more specialized upper-division courses because of my prior teaching experience and familiarity with the university and department. That said, I was really teaching juniors and seniors as a 23 year-old because the communication, rhetoric, and English departments needed help DESPERATELY. Some of my comrades immediately had a knack for teaching, some got it after time, and others never got it--but everyone had to teach something even though few genuinely wanted to. Everyone made mistakes.

Chalk this up as "victory enough". You haven't spoiled any relationships, got a good grade on seemingly average work, and might get to take your teacher shooting. The key is that you correctly juggle your beliefs, your student-teacher relationship, and the long-term, you-crushing necessities of your overall college career (e.g. not screwing yourself by being too stubborn at the wrong time).

GuyWithQuestions
April 28, 2008, 04:48 AM
Tell him never to visit Utah for any academic conferences. They allow student and faculty concealed carry.

That's the state I live in, and I carry concealed when going to campus :D

Ohioan
April 28, 2008, 09:45 AM
My grades suffered because of my political opinions in college. My brother, who was in a lot of the same classes, told me to keep my mouth shut. But, I'd rather stand up for what I believe in rather than get an A. I can handle B's.

Then, in November 2004, the day before the election, I was a senior, taking Poli Sci 101. It was me and 125 freshmen. The Prof stands up, and says " I just want you all to know, that if Bush gets reelected, there WILL be a draft in 2005."

I about flipped out. Being a Senior, I just wanted to get the hell out, so I didn't report the guy. Wish I would've.

I'm a high school teacher, if I graded a paper like your proffesor graded yours, my butt would've been canned faster than I could say "I want my union rep!".


A fact based, non-insultave rebuttal would be the best on your part.

Then, a copy mailed to the local school newspaper, the dean, college board, etc.

I'd make a mess out of it.

But, then again, college would probably get a lot harder for you. Stand up for your beliefs, but don't forget, you just need to get a degree and get the hell out of there.

Oana
April 30, 2008, 03:30 AM
I've got to add...I really wonder about the posting of presumably "private" e-mails on a public forum. (Nothing against the OP, just a thought I had.) I know this is the Internet age, but I must admit I'd be a little irritated if one of my students - or my teacher - posted my presumably private rebuttal online.

Just a thought...

jakemccoy
April 30, 2008, 04:42 AM
Wow, what a Hillary he is. I feel sorry for you.

Deer Hunter
April 30, 2008, 12:11 PM
For those of you just tuning in, everything turned out ok. He wants to go shooting with me this summer and has even written me a letter of recomendation for my application at the university writing center.

GEM
April 30, 2008, 12:36 PM
Well, that's good.

One thought - as a prof, don't use secondary opinion sources as your main argument.

If you are doing a gun paper - cite criminological or other professional literature. If you want analyses and opinions - you can find similar reasoning in books put out by legit university presses - like Oxford or NYU, by scholars.

One could make a case for concealed carry by citing Kleck and mentioning his book Point Blank won the big criminology award when it was published.

03Shadowbob
April 30, 2008, 01:51 PM
No wonder America is falling so far behind the world in education. This guy is an English teacher and he can't get grammar, spelling or vocabulary right.
As far as the rebuttal, good job.

fireflyfather
April 30, 2008, 02:39 PM
Not reading this whole thing, but here's the rub: If a teaching professional grades a student on their beliefs, rather than how well they objectively support those beliefs, they are commiting a boundary violation (medical/educational/legal ethical violation...putting the professional's interests ahead of the person seeking professional help). I'm an English teacher myself, and I've worked in both secondary school and university classes.

This particular guy sounds like a complete tool. I would raise the issue of him lowering your grade based on his personal political/moral beliefs. I would state it bluntly but without rancor. I would remind him that you DID use factual evidence to support your claims, simply facts that he finds inconvenient to his worldview. I would not elaborate on that statement, but it does need to be said. If he refuses to make an allowance for this, I would bring it up with the Dean of students/ombudsman, or whatever student recourse is available to you. Otherwise this guy is going to pick on other students he doesn't agree with in the future. I've had to take stands on similar things before, and it can be done, if you approach it right. Don't try to refute his WORLDVIEW. Simply make the point that it is inappropriate for him to impose his worldview on you in a professional setting. He has made claims CONCERNING THE QUALITY OF YOUR WORK that are obviously untrue. Contest him on that point. Stick up for yourself there where he is CLEARLY in the wrong. Arguing gun control with him or involving the university on a free speech issue is not worth your time. You will never convince someone like him. All you can do is give him enough pushback that he won't trample on your rights.

JohnL2
April 30, 2008, 02:49 PM
Geez, writing about guns or the 2nd amendment in college is just asking for trouble.
And if you are former military, DO NOT for the love of God write or discuss about it. They just don't get it.
Keep it to yourself.

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