rimfires for ccw


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bullfrog99
August 15, 2003, 04:13 PM
When looking at the compact auto market I noticed an odd occurance. I was looking at a 32acp handgun for my light ccw handgun and found out that a 32 grain 22lr at 1640fps (aguila) has more Kenetic Energy then a 32 acp at 1050 has with a 60 grain bullet( 259.1 joules, 22lr vs 199.1joules, 32acp). I always knew that the top 22's were better then a 25 acp but I would have never suspected a 22lr of passing a 32 auto. ------------ I am curious as to how many people trust rimfires for ccw uses and which guns they use. (btw feel free to correct me if i am looking at this wrong. it is my understanding that those aguila velocitys are from a handgun and not a rifle but I may be mistaken)

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WonderNine
August 15, 2003, 04:22 PM
Are you taking barrel length into account with your numbers?

Are you sure that the .22lr numbers are not from out of a rifle barrel?

22luvr
August 15, 2003, 05:42 PM
I carry an NAA mini revolver with the 1 1/8" barrel quite often. I stoke it with CCI Maxi-Mag + V rounds, which get over 1,000 FPS out of this little gun. I'm not deluded by the questionable stopping power of the .22 but I think it will be adequate as close-quarter self-defense round. Shucks, the the muzzle blast, flash, and noise, alone, that this little cannon produces would make most perps probably faint, collapse, or flee.

WonderNine
August 15, 2003, 06:39 PM
CCI Maxi-Mag + V rounds over 1,000 fps

Which is .22 magnum.

bullfrog99, you're not going to see anything close to 1650 fps from a .22lr out of a pistol barrel I'm sorry to say.

tbeb
August 15, 2003, 07:52 PM
I would never carry a .22 for self defense. I don't trust rimfire ignition. I'll take centerfire ignition over rimfire any day. I'll take a 100% reliable .32 ACP pistol loaded with good hollowpoints (like from Corbon or Winchester) over a .22 long rifle/.22 magnum pistol or revolver any day.

Felonious Monk
August 15, 2003, 08:03 PM
I'm with you, Jeff.

I don't pretend to think that a mousegun in ANY caliber is going to stop the proverbial 300lb crackhead.

I'm going to get flamed for this. And I don't care.
I think much of the "stopping power" hype is skewed toward the LEO environment. And while that gives good practical data to work with, your average 22luvr or Felonious Monk is not going to be shooting it out with a 300lb crackhead. They just don't come (statistically speaking) to the AYSO soccer fields, or the Golden Corral breakfast bar in the 'burbs.

Here's how I score it:
1) I don't go places that put me in high-risk situations.
2) I practice situational awareness at all times when outside my home.

Those pull the possibilities of a life and death struggle way down.

Then,
Simply pulling a CCW weapon will deter many potential threats.
Bad guys DO NOT stop in mid attack and say "pardon me sir, I see you have now pulled your handgun. Might I be so bold as to ask what caliber it is, so as to assess whether or not I want to continue my assault upon you?"

They do one of two things.
They either say to themselves "Oh MIERDA! a gun!"
...or, they say to themselves "screw it" and keep coming at you.

If all I've got on me is a Taurus 94, I'm gonna put 9 rounds of 22LR in him at the most strategic places to deter his aggression.
Or 9 rounds from my P32.
Then, I'll shove it up his nose into his brainpan if necessary.

I choose willingly to assume the risk of the small caliber, based on the wildly small odds that I find myself faced with a life or death conflict.

Once I've emptied the mag, I've still got the knives and the kubotan and whatever else to continue the defense.

Short of carrying an AR-15 everywhere I go, I feel adequately defended.
Others of you may need a Desert Eagle or a .454 Casull or whatever to achieve the same feeling.

Situational awareness, extensive practice with your carry weapon, and shot placement is what does it for me.

Whatever floats your boat.
FM

Standing Wolf
August 15, 2003, 11:15 PM
Shucks, the the muzzle blast, flash, and noise, alone, that this little cannon produces would make most perps probably faint, collapse, or flee.

I have a hunch you're right, although I'd have to wonder what the actual percentage might be.

Drifting Fate
August 15, 2003, 11:35 PM
There's a lot more to stopping power than pure energy statistics, and I do think your numbers are a bit off for real world carry guns. Penetration and crush cavity are important, as is how the energy available is dissipated. Energy dump is why a .357 tends to show better results than a .44 mag. Of course, shot placement, shot placement, shot placement, is the most critical things.

I've talked with cops who have seen guys soak up 8 rounds of 7.62X39mm and ones who have seen a guy drop like a rock from a single .22lr.

That being said, all the same rules apply: a Beretta 21A in the pocket is better than a .45 on the night stand at home. But, don't fool yourself, carry the .45 (or whatever) if you possibly can, you are carrying for more than just piece of mind. You may actually have to use the thing. Trust me, wrapping your hand around a serious fighting gun is a lot more comforting than pulling a mouse gun and having doubts about the caliber.

The .32 is a better defensive round than a .22, but use what you have.

Rimfires used to have reliability problems, and still can. If you do carry a rimfire for defense, buy the top quality, premium, high velocity, domestic stuff.

Mattkc
August 16, 2003, 01:03 AM
22lr can be a very deadly round but you can't use it like larger rounds. The 22lr stops with a head shot quickly. I've worked in an trama center for years and it has always amazed me how people could get shot in the head with large powerfull rounds and live to walk out of the hospital weeks later. They may not walk or talk well but they live on. If you don't hit the brain stem most bullets damage but don't destroy the brain. What kills most people is pressure from the brain swelling. When a person is shot with a 22lr. it enters the skull but rarely exits it just bounces around the skull untill it stops. That single 22 cal hole quickly clogs up and pressure rapidly increase. While a body shot won't quickly stop someone it can be very deadly. The entry hole can be hard to find and the round doesn't tend to take a straight path through the body. When the doctor gets inside trying to find all those little 22 holes, in your organs, can be almost impossible. If I ever have to take a round please let it be a 25 auto and not a 22lr.

nemesis
August 16, 2003, 01:25 AM
Why is it that the person who would never think of attempting to use a screwdriver too small for the job or a hammer too small for the job or a baseball bat too small for the job, will turn right around and intentionally select the smallest and least effective handgun they can find to protect their life and limb?

You have my permission to label me as insensitive, old fashioned, set in my ways or just ornery but don't ever expect me to skimp on my personal defense. I carry a 45 and I don't give a lot of time over to wondering whether it will work.

Walt Sherrill
August 16, 2003, 11:41 AM
I agree with many of the prior posters: bigger is better.

I'm sure a .22 can be lethal, and I don't want you to test it on me to make your point, but I'm equally sure that a 9x19 is also lethal and more likely to have the effect of making the person I'm shooting change his or her mind more quickly.

The talk of shots to the brain pan or eye socket are good, but in many confrontations or attacks, the bad guy isn't standing still, isn't always within arms reach (and if within arms reach may have a gun or knife himself/herself). Theory and reality often diverge when you get right down to it.

Give me the smallest 9mm I can find when "small" weapons are called for, or a .40 or .45 at other times.

(Unhappily, most of the small .22s that are discussed and praised are also limited in their capacity.)

fastbolt
August 16, 2003, 02:04 PM
I think the situational awareness and danger-avoidance comment shows a very practical philosophy. I'm no longer amazed by how many folks consider neither aspect of how they live their everyday lives ...

I'm also no longer amazed by how many folks still bring their favorite little .22's to the CCW course & range, either ...

And, I'm still not amazed that I can't remember ever seeing one finish the course without experiencing failures to function of one sort or another. The little Berettas are nicely made little pistols. Their primary drawback is that they're chambered in .22LR, which simply doesn't offer the feeding & ignition reliability of a centerfire cartridge. The other drawback to the little Beretta is the tip-up barrel, and how easy it is to manipulate the itty-bitty pistol so the barrel tips up at the wrong time ...

While we allow civilians to bring any caliber concealable firearm to their CCW classes, we won't authorize our agency's folks to carry anything smaller than a .32 ACP for off duty. Also, while we only "recommend" civilians consider using quality factory produced JHP/BHP for their CCW weapons, only authorized JHP/BHP factory ammunition is permitted to be carried by our folks when off duty.

One time I was present in an E/R room where a victim was being treated for a .25 ACP gunshot wound to his chest ... boyfriend/girlfriend dispute ... and the bullet was lodged dangerously close to his heart. At one point, when a nurse handed me his bagged clothing for evidence ... which contained a significant amount of his drugs ... they had a hard time holding him down on the table when he started yelling at me not to take his "clothing". He appeared to have been "cooperative" in receiving treatment up to that point ...

As far as "bad guys" either fainting at the sight or sound of a gun in the hands of a "victim" or even a cop? :scrutiny: I wish ...

I was talking to prisoner once about his experience in getting shot across his chest & one shoulder with a load birdshot from rather "close range". (The cop hadn't taken the time to check the shotgun he'd taken for the warrant attempt, and the first round had been birdshot :what: ...) The suspect had been really surprised and annoyed by the birdshot hit, but it had been enough to slow him down while he was trying to climb the fence and escape, and other cops had ran around the house and helped capture him. The cop had been rather surprised himself, when I asked him about it later ... :banghead:

A friend of mine works for the state prison system, and he said he sees lots of inmates with bullet scars ...

The implied corollary to the "Have a gun" rule is "Have enough gun" ...

PCRCCW
August 16, 2003, 04:40 PM
Be careful getting into the 22lr ballistics info thing. 99% of published data is from a rifle barrel. The chambering is very dependent on barrel length also. The little NA's are great for when you cant carry a gu.....er, a bigger CCW :rolleyes: :scrutiny:
In a revolver they are alot more reliable...remember semi auto's are hit and miss at times with the rimfires. And yes Ive had a couple of small s/autos that ran and ran...One phoenix had over 5000 rnds thru it without a burp...but I still wouldnt trust my life with it.
Shoot well

mlk18
August 16, 2003, 05:55 PM
The only rimfire I would use for ccw is the Grendel P30. Having a whopping 30 rounds (+1) of .22 magnum available would surely result in atleast one or two hits on an important internal organ. But I think I would also need 2 spare magazines, just in case. Plus it's so ugly it may scare the bad guy away.

mlk18

clubsoda22
August 17, 2003, 02:23 AM
Simply put, the smaller the round, the better shot you have to be. If you're gonna carry a .22 for self defence, you should be able to draw it and put all the rounds in the head as fast as you can. Personally, i'll take the .32. The .22 has more energy, but that energy is worthless as neither handgun really has enough energy to knock someone over. Most don't. What you need to look at is permanent cavity. The larger the permanent cavity, the more real tissue damage there is. A .32 will leave a bigger hole than a .22 and will penetrate deeper, increaing the chances of hitting a vital organ or causing the target to bleed out. When it comes to handgun calibers, this is far more important than energy or some unscientific study of "one shot stops"

Here's where good shooting comes in. If you are a good enough shot that you can hit a vital organ (such as the brain), it doesn't matter what caliber you're using as long as it can get to a vital organ. (which is why i'm not a .25 fan as they have the least penetration of any mousegun calibers. They will bounce off skulls and ribs)

Mike Irwin
August 17, 2003, 05:29 AM
I carried a Taurus TP-22 as my primary CCW for several years back in the late 1990s.

It has been, with Winchester Wildcat, absolutely flawless. No failures to feed, fire, or eject.

I've had far more failures to fire with centerfire ammunition from major manufacturers than I have had with rimfire ammo from major manufacturers.

BMWGuru
August 17, 2003, 08:06 AM
Plenty of people have been killed with a 22. I would rather have a 22 I could be accurate with than a bigger gun that I couldn't shoot well. That being said I feel that bigger is better, nothing smaller than a 380 or 38 special would be my choice for ccw.

Indigo22
August 17, 2003, 09:59 AM
I've found the Winchester (better stuff) ammo very reliable as well as the CCI ammo. In my gun the Winchester has a slight edge in accuracy.
CCI has recently come out with the Velocitor they claim to have the fastest 40gr 22lr which results in 30% more power. I haven't seen any reports that show actual velocity as of yet but I purchased several boxes to give them a try.
At 15yds (45ft) I can keep all 10 rounds on a golf ball sized target, 25yds will slightly more than double that. For rapid fire accuracy you need alot of practice. I can buy a brick of 500 22lr for what a box of 50 45auto's would cost. This resulting in several hours of fun, cheap fun, slow and fast fire maybe even a little plinking. Shooting at golf balls out arround 30yds is a chalenge.
22lr as a CCW definately ... shoot for the throat though not the head. Ten rounds in that reigon will put some hurt on 'em. Rely on GOOD ammo and practice alot. Feed problems and fire problems most often are a result of cheep ammo. You do get what you pay for.

Newton
August 17, 2003, 07:01 PM
The Kel-Tec P-3AT should help considerably in deciding which pocket pistol gives you the best protection.

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