Chicago Police to use M4 carbines (Chicago Tribune)


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Neo-Luddite
April 26, 2008, 10:18 AM
Chicago Police to use M4 carbines
Associated Press
7:31 AM CDT, April 26, 2008

CHICAGO - Chicago Police Superintendent Jody Weis has plans to equip the department's officers with M4 carbines to match the firepower of the street gangs they have to face to stop the wave of shootings in the city.

Weis' decision to arm and train his 13,500 officers with more powerful weapons was disclosed Friday.

Chicago Police SWAT teams are already equipped with M4 carbines, but rank-and-file officers are currently only allowed to carry handguns.

The M4 is a short assault rifle used by the Marine Corps, and it fires more shots in less time than most handguns. The fully automatic version can fire up to 1,000 rounds a minute, although the magazines only hold from 20 to 30 shots.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-ap-il-chicagoviolence-c,0,7343680.story

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Neo-Luddite
April 26, 2008, 10:22 AM
Really just FYI. The recent increase in gang/youth murders has caused Mayor Daley to hold a 'private' meeting yesterday on whatever should be done. This may be the only sensible thing to come out of it (the rest was, well, the usual for Mayor Daley....). See how fast it gets implemented; I would not hold my breath.

Onmilo
April 26, 2008, 12:20 PM
"The M4 carbine is the short assault rifle used by the Marine Corps."
Uh, try again Associated Press,,,,,,,,

FieroCDSP
April 26, 2008, 12:25 PM
Hmm...regular cops walking(or driving) the beat with an M4 slung. Incapacitate the cop with an ambush and "Hey, kewl... an assault rifle!!!"

I'm all for the cops being sufficiently armed, but the next step on Dailey's list is Martial Law.

45Guy
April 26, 2008, 12:28 PM
They don't carry long guns slung, they're locked in a rack between the front seats. No cop walking a beat has a long gun, only patrol cars have them.

Guitargod1985
April 26, 2008, 01:10 PM
The Chicago police need to match firepower? What firepower? I thought handguns and dreaded "assault weapons" were banned.

RLsnow
April 26, 2008, 01:23 PM
I see what you did there xD ^

Eightball
April 26, 2008, 01:27 PM
the next step on Dailey's list is Martial Law.That's not essentially already happening? :rolleyes:

FourTeeFive
April 26, 2008, 01:33 PM
I personally think this is pretty frightening considering they will be using these in a very heavily populated urban environment. How many times do we read about police situations where dozens of rounds are expended but the suspect was hit only a few times? That is with handguns; it should be interesting to see where all those rifle rounds end up during a firefight.

XD-40 Shooter
April 26, 2008, 01:42 PM
No way can the M-4 fire 1000 rounds/minute, even in full auto. Considering the heat build-up in the barrel, you get about 20 rounds/minute. 1000 rounds/minute and the barrel would be melted, lol. Idiots in the press.:rolleyes:

ilbob
April 26, 2008, 01:48 PM
If you guys read secondcitycop's blog, you might well be a little frightened of this move considering the minimal level of ongoing training the average CPD officer now gets on his sidearm.

Although really, a refresher course twice a year on the 3 rules and basic shooting skills, and putting a few hundred rounds downrange is probably adequate for the average cop. I don't expect a high degree of shooting skill from the average cop, not much more than I would expect out of the average armed citizen. Its the same kind of defensive shooting.

Personally, for an urban area I would think a pump shotgun is a better choice.

FourTeeFive
April 26, 2008, 01:49 PM
No way can the M-4 fire 1000 rounds/minute, even in full auto.

Per Colt's specs the cyclic rate of fire is 700-950 rpm. That is just a rating of how fast it autoloads, not that it is necessarily capable of continuous fire at that rate. Unless there were belt-fed M4's the continuous fire capability isn't really an issue.

http://www.colt.com/mil/M4_2.asp

FourTeeFive
April 26, 2008, 01:51 PM
Personally, for an urban area I would think a pump shotgun is a better choice.

Or perhaps a carbine in the same caliber as their pistols? Seems a little more practical considering the level of training.

2TransAms
April 26, 2008, 01:59 PM
I may have missed your point,but why is that? Ammo interchangeability is not a huge priority for the average patrol officer.
The average cop is not going to be in a sustained firefight. One mag of .223 should be plenty in their carbines. I don't see the need for a .40 S&W carbine for the local PD.

That being said and now back on topic,I don't really have a problem with officers having M4's in the car,but it seems Chicago is really looking in all the wrong places to fix their crime problems. I wonder how many of the guns used in shootings the other night were obtained or carried legally? My money's on zero.

IndianaBoy
April 26, 2008, 02:02 PM
Considering the heat build-up in the barrel, you get about 20 rounds/minute. 1000 rounds/minute and the barrel would be melted, lol.


Umm... wrong.


The limiting factor of the m16 and variants is how fast you can change the mags, and how much ammo you can carry.


The Germans managed to field the belt fed MG-42 without melting barrels (they had to swap them periodically during high volume shooting.).


The M16 barrel heat is barely an issue. Assuming you fired and swapped mags as fast as you could for one minute straight on full auto. It might be hot as all get out, but if would function just fine.

Neo-Luddite
April 26, 2008, 03:00 PM
If they order from IL based Armalite like the ISP did--it's good for the economy; imagine dollars going FROM Chicago to a GUN MAKER in RURAL ILLINOIS! I love it, I LOVE IT!!!

Maybe a commemorative edition can be sold off, too--just like with the ISP-spec guns. Maybe Daley's picture on the stock...or giving you a smile and thumbs up on the zero target???!!!


Practical? Worth trying out.

Carl N. Brown
April 26, 2008, 03:11 PM
Per Colt's specs the cyclic rate of fire is 700-950 rpm
This has always bugged me about the published cyclic rate of
full auto combat arms, given that typical magazine capacity is
20 or 30 rounds (yes, M4s in the movies can fire continuously
for several minutes :) but thats propanr driven prop guns ;) ).

The cyclic rate of fire is 11 to 15 rounds per second is
actually a more useful way of expressing the cyclic rate of fire of
box magzine fed full autos.

S4Lee
April 26, 2008, 03:14 PM
How about we all write letters urging all the AR manufacturers to not sell to Chicago at all? That would make an interesting headline - "Chicago PD, like all other Chicago residents, can't obtain weapons to protect themselves from gangs!"

RustyShackelford
April 26, 2008, 03:22 PM
If I were a metro police chief or Sheriff(in a urban area), I'd issue an M-4 type rifle in the new 6.8mm SPC load. This round was developed for spec ops but clearly shows it can carry over to US law enforcement.
Many US Spec ops units prefer 7.62mmNATO or 6.8 SPC rifles to the 5.56mmNATO. The larger rounds offer more power and the rifles are the same size with the same features.
One of the US Army Delta Force members who won the MOH(medal of honor) always had an older model custom M-14 in 7.62mm over the M-4/CAR-15 style 5.56mm weapon other Delta/SEAL operators would carry on missions. SFC Shugart was reported to at least 25 confirmed kills in the incident where he was finally killed in Restore Hope(1993).
:cool:

k_dawg
April 26, 2008, 03:23 PM
Of course.. what he is NOT saying is.. only one of the recent gun murders, were from an "assault weapon", which was semi-auto..

Jorg Nysgerrig
April 26, 2008, 03:33 PM
Considering the heat build-up in the barrel, you get about 20 rounds/minute

20 round a minute? Where on earth did you get this number?

Sage of Seattle
April 26, 2008, 03:39 PM
CHICAGO - Chicago Police Superintendent Jody Weis has plans to equip the department's officers with M4 carbines to match the firepower of the street gangs they have to face to stop the wave of shootings in the city.

Weis' decision to arm and train his 13,500 officers with more powerful weapons was disclosed Friday.

Chicago Police SWAT teams are already equipped with M4 carbines, but rank-and-file officers are currently only allowed to carry handguns.

The M4 is a short assault rifle used by the Marine Corps, and it fires more shots in less time than most handguns. The fully automatic version can fire up to 1,000 rounds a minute, although the magazines only hold from 20 to 30 shots.

Hahaha!

The Idaho Statesman had a story almost exactly like this one a few weeks back -- drove me through the roof. There was even a chart with FULLY AUTOMATIC ASSAULT RIFLES next to the little tiny mention that these rifles for the police were semi auto.

And, the kicker is that the Statesman article also mentioned that the local fuzz were getting their fancy new AR-15's because some police commissioners somewhere said that police are losing the arms race to criminals too! OMGLOLWTF!!!!!!11111!!11 OHMYGODWEVEGOTTOGETOUROWNSEMIAUTOMATICASSAULTWEAPONSTOOOTHERWISETHEBADGUYS WILLTAKEOVERTHEWORLD!!!!!!



*wipes a tear from his eye*

Oh, lord. I do hate these so-called journalists...

Gunnerpalace
April 26, 2008, 03:40 PM
Give them Mp5's, or UMP's in .40 if you want stopping power.

glockman19
April 26, 2008, 03:42 PM
How about we all write letters urging all the AR manufacturers to not sell to Chicago at all?
I agree.
"Chicago PD, like all other Chicago residents, can't obtain weapons to protect themselves from gangs!"
LOL:D

DoubleTapDrew
April 26, 2008, 03:56 PM
Have there been indicents recently where the Chicago PD was undergunned like in the N. Hollywood shootout, or did the superindendent just have a bad dream about one?

Obviously if there is an issue of bad guys having some sort of superior firepower, their ban is ineffective and should be lifted because like all others, they are restricting the wrong people.

One thing that concerns me (besides the fact that this is exactly what the 2a sought to avoid, a one sided concentration of weapons), is everytime the LE uses these guns, or possibly everytime they are even on scene, you can bet it'll go into the brady bunch's stats about "assault rifle involved shootings", even though the good guys were using them. Joe Public won't know any better.

220_Swift
April 26, 2008, 05:57 PM
I've met quite a few CPD, and I wouldn't trust them with a spud gun, let alone an M4. Just how many gunfights do the police actually get into anyway? Seriously, why do they feel the need for automatic weapons in a highly populated area? A semi auto M4gery would make much more sense, and a shotgun would make the most sense.

Just another example from Daly, you peasants can't own anything but our police and bodygaurds can have anyting they want.

XD-40 Shooter
April 26, 2008, 06:13 PM
There is an M-4 full auto torture test posted on google, 11 minutes long, fired 1100 rounds. After about every 3 magazines (90) rounds, he had to dunk the thing in the edge of a pond, to cool it down. The barrel was smoking hot. I seriously doubt the barrel would survive 1100 rounds of continous fire.

In another google video, an AK-47 practically catches the barrel and forend on fire after 300 rounds of full auto fire.

Standing Wolf
April 26, 2008, 09:42 PM
I thought Daly hated guns. Does this mean some guns are okay in Chicagoland?

So confusing!

Sans Authoritas
April 26, 2008, 09:49 PM
Get it over with. Give the cops Abrams, Strykers, Bradleys, SMAW's, AT-4's, M240's and up-armored HMMWV's, and just get it over with. Let's skip this half-hearted nonsense.

-Sans Authoritas

Robert Hairless
April 26, 2008, 10:00 PM
Hot dog, we got us an arms race in Chicago!

romma
April 26, 2008, 10:07 PM
And so the law abiding citizens of Chicago are in the grips, caught in between the crossfire of Criminal Enterprise vs. The Police State.

With nobody really looking out for them.

Sans Authoritas
April 26, 2008, 10:16 PM
And so the law abiding citizens of Chicago are in the grips, caught in between the crossfire of Criminal Enterprise vs. The Police State.

Sounds like the makings for a good novel. With a bad ending.

-Sans Authoritas

romma
April 26, 2008, 10:30 PM
Sounds like the makings for a good novel. With a bad ending.


You know, you're right! Truth really is stranger than fiction... Sort of reminds me of that movie "Children Of Men"...

fedlaw
April 26, 2008, 10:53 PM
Weis' decision to arm and train his 13,500 officers with more powerful weapons was disclosed Friday.

see below:

If you guys read secondcitycop's blog, you might well be a little frightened of this move considering the minimal level of ongoing training the average CPD officer now gets on his sidearm.

True.

lysander
April 26, 2008, 11:20 PM
Have there been indicents recently where the Chicago PD was undergunned like in the N. Hollywood shootout, or did the superindendent just have a bad dream about one?

Nothing like N. Hollywood...but we have had a spate of violence in the city and that has the politicos and media vampires in a tizzy.

We do however, have a new Police Superintendent. Jody Weis is a hard-charging 20+ year Fibby. He's earning about a 1/3rd of a million bucks a year to run things in Chicago. He's ostensibly in the city to clean up the streets and the department. I suppose getting tough on crime entails latching on to the national trends in equipment.

Not to get all Radley Balko or anything...but I can't say that I like it. :rolleyes:

...course I'm also not rolling around the city in a patrol car either.

Logan5
April 26, 2008, 11:45 PM
Chicago Police Superintendent Jody Weis has plans to equip the department's officers with M4 carbines to match the firepower of the street gangs they have to face to stop the wave of shootings in the city.

That squib sure makes it sound like the Chicago police are going to grab carbines and battle gang members street by street, like Blackhawk Down with mayor Daley playing the Blackhawk. Probably they'll shoot through walls, throw grenades, and call in air support, right? How can anyone really spew B.S. like that and be taken seriously?

MTMilitiaman
April 27, 2008, 12:28 AM
Sounds like the makings for a good novel. With a bad ending.

I think Orwell already published that one in 1949.

As for the M4s rate of fire--1000 rounds per minute simply isn't feasible. Unlike the M4, the M249 was designed for sustained automatic fire. IIRC, we were taught that if we fired 200 rounds in a minute we were to change barrels. The weapon was capable of more, but 1000 rounds in a minute is a challenge, even for it. I saw it done, at the cost of a barrel. If you could find a 1000 round drum for the M4, you'd ruin the weapon attempting the feat.

Geno
April 27, 2008, 12:40 AM
A voice from the past whispered:
If Chicago would stop hosting so many of those blasted, downtown gun shows, with their rampant loopholes, America would not now face crime. We know that 99% of crime comes from Chicago. Better yet, maybe Chicago could pass a law rendering assault rifles illegal, and while they are at it, ban handguns outright!!! Seems like every Tom, Dick and Harry has a gun in Chicago. :neener:

Years later, a collective voice of the people retorts:
What guns?! You disarmed us morons! How can you justify assault rifles against a disarmed populace? What's that you say? You didn't disarm the criminals?!

:banghead:

woodybrighton
April 27, 2008, 05:16 AM
m4's in 5.56mm cheap bet they don't get sights or any of the add ons
no journalist understands rate of fire
i.e cyclic rate time how fast it takes to empty the magazine on fully automatic
i.e a 2 seconds30 x30 m4 can fire 1200 rounds a minute :banghead:
most journalists get from those facts the carbine can hold 1200 rounds :(

Soap
April 27, 2008, 06:46 AM
I don't think you guys get it. Chicago is a shining example of hope. The reason why they have gun problems is because of Indiana. :banghead:

Eric F
April 27, 2008, 06:47 AM
Here is my thing they already do this in LA and New York city and nobody gripes and complains about that so whats the issue here?

El Tejon
April 27, 2008, 07:39 AM
The Chicago Police Department is an ongoing, overweight criminal enterprise. How many of those M4s will be "missing" only to be found in the back room of a store in Greektown or sold directly to gangs as CPD has done before.

Don Gwinn
April 27, 2008, 08:40 AM
Also per Second City Cop and their commenters, "13,500 sworn officers" is a bold lie. They claim the numbers are more like 9,500 sworn and dropping as the city refuses to hire more. A couple of months ago they even had an item on an entire academy class being sent home--as in told to go find another job.

DagoRed
April 27, 2008, 10:11 AM
Maybe Mayor Dailey should not be a fan of his city being inhabited by unarmed victims?

spyder1911
April 27, 2008, 10:21 AM
Lemme get this straight, Dailey said they needed M-4 to combat the "semi automatic and fully automatic weapons the police find on the street" yet Illinois does not allow any NFA III weapons, only registered handguns and IIRC there is a limit on rifle mag capacity in Chicago. So isn't the real problem that the police aren't doing their job in the first part!

Edit-Illinois sucks for gun laws

lysander
April 27, 2008, 10:22 AM
The Chicago Police Department is an ongoing, overweight criminal enterprise.

My personal and direct experience with assorted officers of the CPD supports this statement. That being said...you can't impugn a whole department based on my limited interactions with some officers who are a part of it.

It will be interesting to follow Weis in the news to see if his "outsider's" perspective can do anything to clean the department up.

Finally...how does the whole "we are outgunned" argument still hold water? The most recent stats I looked at did not include a high percentage of officer fatalities caused by "assault weapon" calibers.

Geno
April 27, 2008, 10:33 AM
Wouldn't it be a shame if Bushmaster, et al refused to sell or service any M4s for Chicago, until such point as the city/state allowed this type firearm and handguns for ALL civilians? By the way, recall that LEOs are civilians...same as you and I.

Edit to add: I contacted one of our CPD informants (psych) who smuggled out this video of Chicago's gangland war. The video is "proof" that there are gangs waging war with the CPD. Warning...this video "violent". It is food for thought about the fallout of civilian disarmament, and proof that a disarmed Amerika will resort to any type weapons: :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnjTlwxA9KY&feature=related

I guess the CPD really does need M4s.

X-Rap
April 27, 2008, 10:56 AM
Again this will be a case of not following up the results. a year or two from now no national reporters will say how many are missing lost or stolen, how many ND's happen on duty or training or even if innocent citizens have been shot in gunfights. What will be reported is how Chicago continues in its social decline and how more restrictions need to be put on citizens.

I don't want LE to be out gunned as they say but I'll bet Chicago will set out such a difficult protocal for even getting one of the M4s out of the car that they will be quite useless to the average patrol officer.

Here in my part of podunksville Colorado the Sheriff wants a 1/4 million $ armored car that will take .50BMG hits ???????? who knows why I guess just in case.

sacp81170a
April 27, 2008, 11:07 AM
One thing that concerns me (besides the fact that this is exactly what the 2a sought to avoid, a one sided concentration of weapons), is everytime the LE uses these guns, or possibly everytime they are even on scene, you can bet it'll go into the brady bunch's stats about "assault rifle involved shootings", even though the good guys were using them. Joe Public won't know any better.

And of course, it would be an "assault rifle involved shooting" if the "assault rifle" were still locked in its rack in the car and the officer shot someone with a Taser. It's because the evil "assault rifle" has this aura that influences everything around it, doncha know.

Geronimo45
April 27, 2008, 11:13 AM
Warning...this video "violent".
No kidding. :p

Next, they'll probably replace patrol cars with armored vehicles - and complain that it's all the NRA's fault.

I don't normally object to a PD getting M4s... but Chicago does so many objectionable things that I feel it my duty to do so.

XD-40 Shooter
April 27, 2008, 11:37 AM
I agree, the militarization of our police forces is scary, they are becoming more and more agressive. Some of them are even recieving training in urban combat from the U.S military.:eek::uhoh:

Geno
April 27, 2008, 11:52 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but is this not the reason we have a National Guard?! Why does Chicago not have the Gaurd come in and kick the snot out of punks like these gangs? Instead of 13,000 M4s to the CPD, have 13,000 IL Nat'l Guardsmen come into "Dodge". Suround the city, and sweep inward.

ilbob
April 27, 2008, 11:55 AM
It will be interesting to follow Weis in the news to see if his "outsider's" perspective can do anything to clean the department up.
Those with a long memory will recall the last time someone attempted to cleanup the CPD. O. W. Wilson was brought in back in the 60's in response to the almost complete infiltration of the CPD by various organized crime elements. He basically said "go and sin no more" and did very little to deal with the endemic corruption of the department previous to his tenure.

He was somewhat successful in getting the CPD out of the control of the local criminal element, mostly by limiting the local ward bosses control over police in their wards.

In the end, it was moderately successful in some respects, but without a commitment from the city government to have an honest and upright police department, and the moxie to make it happen, you end up with the mess the CPD has been in for the last 2 decades. The criminals that control it now are the criminals that run Chicago, as they found ways to take back control of the CPD.

Part of the problem that you can't just fire the whole department and start over. This tactic has proven very successful in much smaller departments where an outside force (like the sheriff's department or ISP) can take over policing duties for a short time while the force is rebuilt, but a force of 13,000 officers can't be replaced overnight.

Deanimator
April 27, 2008, 12:27 PM
Given the quality of training and supervision in the Chicago PD, I predict deaths of innocent civilians almost immediately. If you can't handle a Ruger SP-101, I don't have high hopes for what you'll do with a genuine automatic weapon.

More people will get rich... too bad it'll be because a relative is dead.

Nanook
April 27, 2008, 01:23 PM
I'm all for the cops being sufficiently armed, but the next step on Dailey's list is Martial Law.

"As long as the trains run on time, the people will be happy."

We ought to start a pool of some sorts as to how long before one of those brand spanking new M4s turn up being wielded by the "Insane Nitwit Posse".

Or whatever is the current "baddest" gang.

lysander
April 27, 2008, 04:19 PM
Those with a long memory will recall the last time someone attempted to cleanup the CPD. O. W. Wilson was brought in back in the 60's in response to the almost complete infiltration of the CPD by various organized crime elements. He basically said "go and sin no more" and did very little to deal with the endemic corruption of the department previous to his tenure.


My roots in the region only reach back as far as the summer of '85 when my family relocated to Chicagoland. So I can't really comment firsthand on anything prior to that. :D

However, my personal experience goes back about a decade and includes extensive contact with members of the CPD including people I attended college with who have gone on to become officers, former friends of my brother who took jobs as officers, and the father of a friend who was a lifer. Sadly, none of these people are individuals who I would consider "high character" types.

...but again...I won't condemn the whole department on the basis of my first hand exposure.

...and again I still don't understand where the "outgunned" argument comes from. I realize that there was a time in Chicago, (mid late 80's if my recall is right) when certain street gangs (the El Rukns) saw members indicted for trying to obtain RPGs from Gaddafi. But as I said earlier, I thought the latest FBI stats did not bear out the notion that police officers are being harmed or killed with "assault weapons."

IIRC officers are still killed most often with their own weapons, in either 9mm or .40 S&W.

Am I wrong remembering that? :confused:

Finally...just how many M4s are we talking here? Half the cruisers in the city? 6000 or 7000 carbines? Might have to up the bottled water tax to pay for them all. :neener: (Just did some more reading and watched some CLTV vids covering this story...Weis is looking to arm 1300 or so officers with M4s.)

Rachen
April 27, 2008, 04:46 PM
How about we all write letters urging all the AR manufacturers to not sell to Chicago at all?

Yes, I completely agree. Lets do the Barrett trick. Barrett stopped selling to ********** government agencies because the state infringed on their citizen's 2nd Amendment rights.

I hope AR is on the side of the Citizens, too.

A boycott will show the twisted libpervert lawmakers that we Americans refuse to accept their Nazi-like agenda.

lysander
April 27, 2008, 05:06 PM
If Weis is really going to push for acquiring a few thousand M4 type carbines...it does present an interesting political question for those who control the purse strings in Chicago.

...you can go out of state and buy from Colt (or Bushmaster, etc.,)...and give Illinois based AR manufacturers like Armalite and RRA (and their supporters) some great political capital to beat you up for being disloyal to locally owned and operated businesses who are perfectly capable of filling the contract.

...OR...you can buy the carbines from one of the aforementioned Illinois based manufacturers, thus publicly admitting that those manufacturers make a product that has redeeming social value, thereby providing some great political capital for the owners of those companies (and their supporters).

Lets not forget that as recently as a few months ago, Illinois legislators, led by legislators from the city proper, were drafting state-level legislation that could shutter the doors of companies like RRA, Armalite and Springfield Armory.

begin edit: outsider or not, Weis is toeing the party line when it comes to "assault weapons", as evidenced by these inane, Fuddlike statements uttered during a press conference at the beginning of last week:
"Why in the world do we allow citizens to own assault rifles? . . . AK-47s should be outlawed," Weis said.

"I've been an avid hunter all my life," he said. "I've served in the military. You do not need an AK-47. We don't need them on the streets of Chicago." Source: Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-chicago-crime-21-apr21,0,2023702,full.story) :end edit

Of course there is probably some bogus Federal DHS surplus grant system that provides Uncle Sam bucks for big cities to pick up the guns. Thus providing the powers that be in Chi-town with a workaround to avoid shelling out any money to Armalite or RRA.

Carl N. Brown
April 27, 2008, 06:05 PM
Sounds like the makings for a good novel. With a bad ending.


John Brunner, The Jagged Orbit, 1969.

Wait until the CPD find out about the Gottshalk Weaponry Combine
Mark XIX oversuit with 350 Watt laser gun, projectile sidearm and
spare magazines, self fragmenting glass (Yes Glass not Gas) grenades,
18 cm knife and first aid kit: every cop an armored walking tank!
Plus the System C upgrade, with a tactical nuke launcher capable
of leveling 25 city blocks.....

Oops: yes, those are Glass Gas grenades with the Mark XIX oversuit.
(Hadn't read that book since May 1970.)

The Tourist
April 27, 2008, 06:11 PM
I'm all for law and order and the safety of the officers. However, there's a reason that there is a SWAT team, and there is a reason there are beat cops.

Setting aside any Posse Comitatus lines that are getting blurred, most beat cops aren't really "gun guys" and have little, if any training with a rifle of that sort.

There is a saying that, "If you are in trouble, call the police. When the police are in trouble, call SWAT."

That saying and philosophy have held for more than thirty years. I see no reason why untrained personnel should have actual assault weapons. They are peace officers, not shock troops.

sacp81170a
April 27, 2008, 06:19 PM
There is a saying that, "If you are in trouble, call the police. When the police are in trouble, call SWAT.

That didn't work very well at Columbine. The doctrine now is that if there's an active shooter, you go with what's on scene immediately rather than wait for SWAT 15-20 minutes later. Minutes = lives. That said, I'd bet that there will be darn few occasions when a patrol rifle is the right tool for the job. Expect to hear bad things if these guys aren't thoroughly trained, which I expect won't happen. I expect political correctness and budgetary constraints to rule the process. :(

kfranz
April 27, 2008, 06:24 PM
Given that the CPD had Stoner 63's at one time, this seems like a step back...

Deanimator
April 27, 2008, 06:30 PM
My personal and direct experience with assorted officers of the CPD supports this statement. That being said...you can't impugn a whole department based on my limited interactions with some officers who are a part of it.
You can't impugn EVERY INDIVIDUAL OFFICER. It's very EASY to "impugn" the Chicago Police Department as an ORGANIZATION. It has degenerated completely to a Hobbesian state of nature, to the point where individual officers are no longer the issue. The Department is so thoroughly and fundamentally corrupt from top to bottom, that the actions of any individual officer are irrelevant. The SYSTEM itself is criminal. It is run BY criminals to protect other criminals. One needs only look at the last ten years of departmental wrongful death lawsuits to see the truth of this. Chicago cops who commit the most heinous crimes face no meaningful punishment. IAD allows criminal gangs to operate within "elite" units for YEARS.

The Chicago PD is completely and PERMANENTLY compromised. The ONLY way to fix this is to wipe out the whole corrupt mess and start over. Anybody who thinks Daley is going to do THAT is obviously a chronic user of narcotic drugs.

Kentak
April 27, 2008, 06:33 PM
XD-40 Shooter,

Calm down. It is correct to describe the rate of fire of a full-auto weapon expressed as rounds per minute, or cyclic rate of fire. It describes how fast the action of the weapon can fire, auto-load, and fire again. So, if a weapon can fire ten rounds in one second, then its rate of fire is 600 rounds per minute. Doesn't matter if its mags only can hold ten rounds, or if the heat would cause it to malf sooner. The rate of fire is still 600 rpm.

Unfortunately, the uninformed think that number means somebody with that gun is actually going to be able to shoot that number of rounds at one time without stopping.

Edited to add: When I was a kid (I'm dating myself now) the F-104 Starfighter came into service. It's Vulcan 20mm rotary cannon was described as having a rate of fire of 6000 rounds per minute. The F-104, depending on the variation, however, carried only about 750 rounds, or so. The F-16 carries about 500 rounds.

Is it correct to say your car has a top speed of 120 mph, even though you will never, ever drive it 120 miles in one hour of time?

K

Carl N. Brown
April 27, 2008, 06:44 PM
For WHB Smith ("Small Arms of the World") to describe cyclic rate of fire as X rounds a minute, we know what it means.

What irks me is reporters claiming a semi-auto AR15 fires 900 rounds a minute because that is the cyclic rate of a military M16.

ilbob
April 27, 2008, 06:53 PM
Its not fair to claim every CPD officer is a bad guy. With supposedly 13,000 officers, you are bound to have a few bad apples. Some departments do their best to weed out the bad apples. CPD seems to take perverse pride in protecting them, although in fairness, it seems a fair number of the worst offenders have political clout protecting them, not just the thin blue line.

lysander
April 27, 2008, 07:02 PM
I said:

My personal and direct experience with assorted officers of the CPD supports this statement. That being said...you can't impugn a whole department based on my limited interactions with some officers who are a part of it.

Deanimator said:

You can't impugn EVERY INDIVIDUAL OFFICER. It's very EASY to "impugn" the Chicago Police Department as an ORGANIZATION. It has degenerated completely to a Hobbesian state of nature, to the point where individual officers are no longer the issue. The Department is so thoroughly and fundamentally corrupt from top to bottom, that the actions of any individual officer are irrelevant. The SYSTEM itself is criminal. It is run BY criminals to protect other criminals. One needs only look at the last ten years of departmental wrongful death lawsuits to see the truth of this. Chicago cops who commit the most heinous crimes face no meaningful punishment. IAD allows criminal gangs to operate within "elite" units for YEARS.

Your assertions may well be true...and believe me...I am no apologist, nor am I interested in systemic justification. However, as my interactions with people I know on the CPD in their capacity as police officers, is limited, I wouldn't expect THR members to impugn the entire department on that evidence alone. Hence my statement. I apologize for my grammatical choices, which, upon review, lack clarity.

When I wrote "whole department", I really meant...all the individual officers who make up the department, not the organization itself.

Rokyudai
April 27, 2008, 07:56 PM
The only effect toting an extra weapon in their cruiser is going to be on its mileage...

How dare he blame anything but himself for making Chicago nothing short of another Tiajuana.

I apologize to the citizens of Chicago for my frustration. I hope you fair well. I only hope you are still there by no other choice rather than preference.


Rok

Glockman17366
April 27, 2008, 07:58 PM
I also think it's a bad idea for cops to use rifles (of any sort) in an urban area. They just don't have the training or judgement.
Shotguns...well, I think using shotguns would be a better idea.

BTW, writing the AR manufacturers (to not sell AR type rifles to Chicago) is a great idea! Of course, Colt would sell them regardless of what we gun owners wrote.

The Tourist
April 27, 2008, 08:18 PM
The doctrine now is that if there's an active shooter, you go with what's on scene immediately

That doesn't make me feel any better.

If you create a policing agenda that values 'shooters' over any other facet of being a peace officer, then people will become shooters, or shooters will be fast-tracked to higher paying status.

Like I said, we have Posse Comitatus in name only right now as it is. I cannot think of a weapon to which a police force cannot gain access, including armed gunships. Now we want to give police on our streets the same weapons we give to soldiers in Iraq.

Nope, bad idea. First off, without intense training they will be shooting each other. Our old police locker-room in Madison, Wisconsin was riddled with bullet holes. One errant round went out into a commons area. Our former police chief baked his Glock.

Heck, if I was gang-banger I'd just bash two garage can covers together every time I saw a squad car. Sooner or later there would be one muzzle cutting across a friendly.

Being a police officer has always been separate and distinct from being a soldier. By keeping the peace, you are investigating troubled stimuli in a community and stopping crime, not shooting it into teeny pieces.

At least there's one good thing. Chicago will now be a "petri dish" experiment for cops and assault weapons. Hang on.

Drail
April 27, 2008, 08:39 PM
I have only seen Chicago from 8000 ft. That was probably as close as I'll ever want to get after reading this. If the engine quits I just hope I can make it out to the water.

Kino74
April 27, 2008, 08:48 PM
Well since the CPD all of suddenly wants M4s, the gun manufacturers should stake a stand and boycott them or sell them the rifles without goverment or police discoount.

DJW
April 27, 2008, 09:06 PM
Didn't I just see hiz honor saying the 36 shootings there last week(with only 9 or 10 killed)were the fault of the gun manufacturers? He was quoted in several places laying that blame squarely on their shoulders. Surely it was not the fault of a government that will not allow it's citizens to defend themselves!
Lived in that stink hole for decades before escaping to Texas. Never returned there except for funerals.
By the way........Texas is now full up and has been for more than 10 years. Flee to california or mass. or detriot..........much better in those places. Sorry there is no room left here.

mr.trooper
April 27, 2008, 09:38 PM
They don't carry long guns slung, they're locked in a rack between the front seats. No cop walking a beat has a long gun, only patrol cars have them.

thats how they do it here.

About a year ago, a cop stopped into a Dunken Donuts (no joke) and left his car unlocked. He came out, and OOPS! his bushmaster M4gery was MIA. They still haven't found the gun or the person who stole it.

Autolycus
April 27, 2008, 09:57 PM
I am not PPO with Chicago PD but I am currently waiting for them to begin testing again. I grew up in the suburbs around Chicago and have moved away to finish my education. I currently go to a state school in central Illinois.

I have a few friends on the Chicago Police Department or currently in the process of waiting for their background investigations to finish up.

Part of this is because last week a few of Chicago's finest pursued some gangbangers down an alley. The gangbangers were armed with an AK style rifle (I doubt it was an actual selectfire weapon). They were armed with only their handguns which are DAO guns in 9mm, .40S&W, or .45 ACP. The officers do not have access to old shotguns that are probably older than I am. They have been asking for patrol rifles for a long time. The only units that have them are SWAT units. I do believe they have a unit called TRU (Tactical Response Unit) that may have some access to long-arms and which wears BDU style uniforms. They saturate areas shootings and other outbreaks of gang activity or violence.

There has also been a recent upstream in violence as the weather gets nicer outside. The officers are brave people who are trying to do the best they can but their hands are tied by the politicians who run the city, county, and state governments. It is these politicians that put the gun laws into place and force them down out throats. It is also these politicians that have destroyed the morale and city of Chicago through corruption, crime, and being greedy. These problems are why Chicago Police use outdated cars, computers, and have shotguns that were built in the seventies and eighties, have shotgun shells over seven years old for the guns, have less training than other departments, have no FOP contract, and have let Chicago lose the status as the greatest city on Earth. I love Chicago and my dream is to work amongst the esteemed men and women of the Chicago Police Department but not for the politicians that destroyed that department and city.

Another poster mentioned a blog called http://secondcitycop.blogspot.com/ as a source for information. If you read the blog and the comments you will find a lot of pro-gun rhetoric and anti-democrat rhetoric beside it. The majority of the people who frequent that blog are disgusted that you and I are not allowed to carry defensive weapons, purchase "assault weapons" in Chicago proper and Cook county, and have to register their guns. In this blog we have a friend and an anonymous informant in the Chicago Police Department who is willing to spill the beans on Mayor Daley, Jody Weiss, Phil Cline, and the alderman who really run the city by ensuring that Mayor Daley gets his votes.

A great example of this is Jody Weiss and his new position. Jody is a retired FBI agent who is now running a police department. The second largest police department in the country,on paper it is 14,000 officers but in reality it is 9,000 officers. (These people are working at a huge shortage of officers and deserve to be commended for it not mocked because they cannot do as good a job as we demand!) According to the blog, Daley chose Jody Weiss because it will keep the FBI and other Federal Investigators happy and the heat off some of the corruption found in the police department and their cronyism. It seems Jody has created quite a stir with his comments recently.
Such as his desire to arm the officers with a uniform sidearm (undetermined make and manufacturer but I am going to guess Glock) instead of allowing them to purchase Sigarms, Smith and Wesson, Glock, Springfield XD, Beretta, or Ruger guns that are DAO. This upset some as they will have lost an investment because they buy their own guns a duty belts. They do get a uniform allowance but it is not much.

His desire for fitness standards, which is good in some ways. However the department did hire them on with out them and it can cause some FOP trouble. It also does not take into affect that they are working 6 days on and off 2 days as well as court on some days. Keep in mind that the court is in addition to their shift and can be right in the middle of their offtime.

In addition to this many officers are working second jobs because they don't want their children to attend the shameful public schools in Chicago. They are also forced to live in Chicago while other city employees are not. Chicago is an expensive city to live in.

All they really want to do is be police and they are having a hard time doing it because of the same people who are screwing us Illinois gun owners as well.

So cut them some slack. Check out the link I posted earlier and read the comments found therein. Keep in mind that the comments may contain quite a bit of four letter words.

Dienekes
April 27, 2008, 10:11 PM
A classic case of an increasingly inept political entity thrashing around as it weakens.

Dinosaurs in the tar pit.

cherryriver
April 27, 2008, 10:22 PM
One small point about the way things work here- Jody Weis does not make decisions. Richard Daley makes the decisions in Chicago and the County of Cook, which holds nearly a quarter of the population of the state. Also, there are few decisions made in the entire state by anyone other than Daley. The governor, attorney general, president of the state senate and the speaker of the state house of representatives are Daley operatives.
Both of the US senators are Daley operatives. Obama was manufactured in Chicago by the Daley machine.
If the CPD gets ARs, you can be assured it's part of Daley's public relations blitz. It's window dressing.
The big problem is how broke the city, county, and state are. (See: "decisions", above). The corruption is merely how loyalty is bought and paid for.
Laid over all this is Daley's conviction (we like to fantasize around here) that his handgun ban is about to be damaged or destroyed. He embarked on this giant PR tsunami trumpeting how bad things are, going from one gun control talking point to another as each disintegrated. He brought in Jesse Jackson and enlisted the faux-Reverend Micheal Pfleger, and both bombed.
He brought in national anti-gun groups such as that "legal community to end gun violence", or whatever it's called, and that was an especially spectacular failure; perhaps a dozen anti-gunners held a forum, and a hundred seventy-five pro-gun activists showed up and talked that fact trash until even the journo mob attending almost considered reporting some portion of the truth.
Much of it is backfiring, of course, now that he's getting national press for how savagely violent Chicago is.
Actually, the murder rate dropped like a rock about three years ago when he brought in an actual police officer, Phil Cline, to bust heads and chops. Amusingly, this drop coincided with the end of the Clinton "assault" weapons ban.
When the previously-cited police brutality story got going, Cline was shown the door and now we have a new marionette. He can't even keep his story straight about his work clothes, much less what he's doing to fix anything.
That's because he's just providing a mouth for the true words of the actual authority.
You can take it to the bank that the M4 thing is just another move on the giant chessboard of Machine politics.

Deanimator
April 27, 2008, 10:39 PM
So cut them some slack. Check out the link I posted earlier and read the comments found therein.
NO, I REFUSE.

The Chicago Police Department has been cut FAR too MUCH slack for FAR too LONG. It is completely out of control and no longer even PRETENDS to uphold the public trust.

As for SecondCityCop, every time despicable curs like Officer Anthony Abbate are in the news, you're GUARANTEED to see impassioned defenses of him there, not only demanding that he not be prosecuted, but that he not be FIRED for his valiant beating of an innocent woman whom he outweighed by more than 100lbs.

No, I WON'T cut them any "slack". I still have foolish relatives living in Chicago, any one of whom could end up a victim of the Chicago PD.

Deanimator
April 27, 2008, 10:44 PM
Actually, the murder rate dropped like a rock about three years ago when he brought in an actual police officer, Phil Cline, to bust heads and chops.
Yeah that "actual police officer" overruled the findings of a board and gave an officer a 30 DAY SUSPENSION for a MURDER, and lied repeatedly to the public about it. Lucky for Officer Weems that Cline was a buddy. He made up the loss of pay by PROMOTING Weems to DETECTIVE. Too bad for Weems that he got hit for a chunk of the $15MILLION judgement for the murder he walked on.

As for the murder rate, you can make it whatever you want if you control the reporting. Funny how it's been revised upward, huh?

Deanimator
April 27, 2008, 10:51 PM
A classic case of an increasingly inept political entity thrashing around as it weakens.

Dinosaurs in the tar pit.
More like Berlin 1945.

I wonder if the FBI will eventually have to work as hard as the Red Army to get Daley out of his "bunker"...

RP88
April 27, 2008, 11:35 PM
well, the way I look at it: if Illinois is so close to falling in on itself, then that means that they dont hold much political sway, and dont screw up the country for everyone else like Bloomberg and California keep trying to do. Hopefully NYC keeps failing, and CA goes back on the downward spiral.

also, is it legal for non-LEO citizens to possess assault weapons like the M4 in Chicago? I know about their brutal FOID things, but not about actual restrictions.

Edmond
April 28, 2008, 12:26 AM
also, is it legal for non-LEO citizens to possess assault weapons like the M4 in Chicago? I know about their brutal FOID things, but not about actual restrictions.

Non-LEO citizens are not allowed "assault" weapons or handguns. The handgun ban has been in place since the lady was mayor back in the 80's. She was the one who instituted the ban. Some non-LEO still have handguns legally if they were grandfathered in. But they have to be registered every year. I believe even the LEO's have to register their guns with the city as well.

Intune
April 28, 2008, 02:15 AM
Part of this is because last week a few of Chicago's finest pursued some gangbangers down an alley. The gangbangers were armed with an AK style rifle (I doubt it was an actual selectfire weapon). They were armed with only their handguns which are DAO guns in 9mm, .40S&W, or .45 ACP.

"Part of this..." :what: What's the OTHER PART? :eek:

And, pray tell, what were the final results of such incursion into “Indian Country?” Surely someone from the Blue Brigade took one for the team? I didn’t notice any police deaths on the afore mentioned weekend. A mess of ‘em wounded? Sprained ankles? Poop in pants? Loud noises? Please, for the love of St. Nick, don’t tell me, “well, they eventually subdued the miscreants with no injuries, despite the withering incoming fire…” If no ‘bangers were killed in that alley & no cops were killed in that alley… Hmmm. Sounds like a good day.

The officers do not have access to old shotguns that are probably older than I am. …have shotguns that were built in the seventies and eighties, have shotgun shells over seven years old for the guns, have less training than other departments…

I trust this is still adhering to the High Road but there are many people that I know, if armed with a 1911 era .45, a 1943 M-38 Mauser or a 1945 Garand (insert fav old gun here) there would have been a fewer number of people exiting that alley than went in.

So, less training BUT we need to upgrade their capabilities whilst maintaining a disarmed public. :banghead:

I’m with the other gentleman (Sans Authoritas) who mentioned it first. Just cut the crap & give ‘em Bradley’s, Abrams & Hellfires. Spare us the Death of a Thousand Cuts. The water’s boiling, we’ve croaked.

Autolycus
April 28, 2008, 03:29 AM
The other part is that the bad guys are armed with rifles while the police are armed with handguns. Wouldn't you like a rifle if your enemy had one?

Thank God no cops were harmed but there is no denying that they put their lives on the line for the people of the city.

I can definitely understand the resentment but you cannot blame the cops. Blame the state and the politicians.

Deanimator
April 28, 2008, 06:58 AM
The other part is that the bad guys are armed with rifles while the police are armed with handguns. Wouldn't you like a rifle if your enemy had one?
They have cops who allegedly (according to their own sworn testimony) can't handle a Ruger SP101 revolver. You want to give them machineguns?

Thank God no cops were harmed but there is no denying that they put their lives on the line for the people of the city.
Some of them do. Some of them like to steal, hit women and sell drugs. It's more important to get rid of those people first than to give them machineguns. I have a better idea. Get the criminals out of the Chicago PD, THEN give the HONEST ones what they need.

I can definitely understand the resentment but you cannot blame the cops. Blame the state and the politicians.
Yeah, you CAN blame the cops. The politicians have a lot to be blamed for, but it wasn't the politicians running a home invasion ring and stomping on barmaids. That was the cops, and they deserve every bit of the blame.

Neo-Luddite
April 28, 2008, 07:33 AM
The whole recent 'police fired on by gang member w/ AK story' has some intersting wrinkles in it if you read up on it. Obviously everyone here is happy no police got hurt in the exchange.

With the way Daley is thrashing about regarding guns these days there is a distinctly up-beat feeling in Illinois (at least on the state level) that people aren't buying his baloney arymore.

Chicago is just not an economic engine for the rest of the state as it once might have been; and everyone in the hinterlands is 1) sick of paying 2) tired of hearing how our rights should be infringed in the holy name of 'but can't we BAN something today.

Deanimator
April 28, 2008, 07:38 AM
Chicago is just not an economic engine for the rest of the state as it once might have been
The question is which will go broke first, the city or the state.

Neo-Luddite
April 28, 2008, 09:06 AM
BOTH are in the hole so far light it isn't even escaping anymore. The problem is that Daley and his younger protege who is nominally the Govorner somehow believe that Chicago, Cook County, and the rest of IL are in the same hole.

The thing (getting back on the M-4's) is that I truly WANT Armalite to get the contract like they did for the ISP carbines. Somehow though, that will end up being too non-PC for Daley to swallow.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 28, 2008, 09:26 AM
These are airsoft, I take it. Neither cops nor citizens need guns in Chicago from what I hear - it's a crime-free utopia due to gun bans.

Deanimator
April 28, 2008, 09:44 AM
The thing (getting back on the M-4's) is that I truly WANT Armalite to get the contract like they did for the ISP carbines. Somehow though, that will end up being too non-PC for Daley to swallow.

If I were Armalite, I'd refuse to sell them a single gas ring.

ilbob
April 28, 2008, 09:54 AM
Chicago is a big mess just waiting to implode. the only thing that might help Chicago is to put 90% of the current politicians in Chicago/Cook County in the federal pen, along with their cronies. I am not sure there is enough space for all those crooks in jail. You might have to build a few more.

Sadly, I suspect that even if you took 1000 of the most crooked politicians in Cook County and locked them up, the voters would vote in the next 1000 most crooked politicians into office in their place.

Deanimator
April 28, 2008, 10:04 AM
Sadly, I suspect that even if you took 1000 of the most crooked politicians in Cook County and locked them up, the voters would vote in the next 1000 most crooked politicians into office in their place.
And that indeed is the problem. Chicagoans appear to actually LIKE being robbed and brutalized.

The ultimate example of this is of course the fact that Daley gets reelected, with apparent majority Black support, even though he was State's Attorney when the worst of the police torture was going on, which oddly enough was NOT directed primarily at Lapplanders.

Intune
April 28, 2008, 10:11 AM
Oldskoolfan, welcome to The High Road! What are you a fan of? Motorcycles, Wrigley Field, music? Pull up a seat by the coffee, great folks here.

Now let me pull up my cyber sleeves & just rip into your post! Naw, I’m too sarcastic for my own good. After a while here you’ll notice a few of us enjoy playing the role of DA (devil’s advocate) and no harm is intended. :evil:

The other part is that the bad guys are armed with rifles while the police are armed with handguns.
Well, no. That was the first part to the first part. I thought you had more to add to the second part of the first part. Then the other part would be as clear as the first part. :p

So, actually, the only part is that Chi cops want M4’s and their reasoning is that out of all the interactions with the public in the last decade there was ONE incident where a perp had an SAR-1 or AK-pattern rifle. Was it even fired at the police or are they that scary just to look at up there?

Wouldn't you like a rifle if your enemy had one?Whoa! “…enemy?” When do you go to the police academy? Protect & Serve or Eradicate & Annihilate? :eek:

I’d prefer tactics & training plus these guys at my disposal: I do believe they have a unit called TRU (Tactical Response Unit) that may have some access to long-arms and which wears BDU style uniforms. They saturate areas shootings and other outbreaks of gang activity or violence.

Thank God no cops were harmed but there is no denying that they put their lives on the line for the people of the city. Thank God NO ONE was harmed. And God Bless the loggers who are out there every day doing one of the most dangerous jobs on the planet to provide for us.

I can definitely understand the resentment but you cannot blame the cops. Blame the state and the politicians. “Resentment?” “Blame?” I haven’t lived in the Chitown area since ’71.

I’m just delighted that the Chief of police came out with that statement, if we’re this frightened out there that we feel the need for full-auto firearms, when we’re already trained, armed & with backup and tactical units, just think how the average Chicago citizen feels, defenseless and alone. I demand that our mayor, governor & state legislatures give the people an opportunity to legally defend themselves. The current situation is unacceptable. If we need M4's, the citizens that we have sworn to Protect & Serve, need them even more. God Bless the loggers... ;)

Oops, that speech musta been shelved ‘till the next crime spree. :barf:

If I were wont to find blame I would probably assign it to the people of Cook/Chi who put up with this bull. But I’m not. So I won’t. :D

The Tourist
April 28, 2008, 10:35 AM
You are responsible for every round you fire.

Police hit about 25% of the time.

Now they are going to get automatic weapons?

IllHunter
April 28, 2008, 11:08 AM
and this topic got rolling whilst I was scheming and planning and writing my reps. Imagine the nerve...last week after 39 or 40 shootings in the city where handguns have been outlawed since 1983, and the new top cop responds by railing against "assault weapons"(which have been outlawed since 2007) and only six days later decides to arm the corrupt police with said assault weapons!!!:banghead:
Try this logic. Daley wants the Olympics in 2016, tons and tons of money to be scammed. Billions. He thinks it will cement his legend. He fears things will go south(an that be possible) if USSC supportd Heller and the Chicago ban falls (even if it takes 5 years from 6/08, think 2013)the citizens will start defending themselves and the OK corral will look like Disney. He must start now, beefing up the CPD to control the masses, both good and evil. Also, movement is afoot for the suburban portion of Cook county to suceed from the county (the NW burbs). This would rob Daley of tax income while his puppet is trying to avoid indictment while not being able to influence the senate or house. The government is stalled and even the MSM is starting to leak the truth.More to follow:cuss:

IllHunter
April 28, 2008, 11:17 AM
not yet, but one of Daleys guys is going to prison for selling city jobs.http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=175028&src=109
that must add a little pucker factor to 'da mayer! It's getting hotter and hotter and spring ain't even sprung. Imagine what the summer will bring. I just got a summons to Jury duty at the Daley Center for May and I can only hope and pray I'll get to nail some political pric_ or maybe just a junky. The brass ring would be a county pol, I need some retribution:fire:

romma
April 28, 2008, 11:22 AM
I just got a sumons to Jury duty at the Daley Center for May and I can only hope and pray I'll get to nail some political pric_ or maybe just a junky.

Any Junky in particular? Do you mean an addict? Not all addicts or "Junkies" are violent criminals that need "Nailing"...

The Tourist
April 28, 2008, 11:29 AM
Not all addicts or "Junkies" are violent criminals that need "Nailing"...

No, you're right, but they breed crime.

What do you think that drug dealer has under his jacket, a water pistol?

And what about all of the other vices that flood into the area? Like gambling and prostitution. In my area we had two hip-hop clubs closed due to the numerous shootings.

However, considering that environment, do you think automatic weapons will quell the crimes? I have my doubts.

romma
April 28, 2008, 11:57 AM
No, you're right, but they breed crime.


Well heck, if that's the case, than you could easily say our government breeds crime by creating the illicit market to begin with..

It's not the war on drugs, it's the war on altered states of consciousness...

Neo-Luddite
April 28, 2008, 12:27 PM
If I were Armalite, I'd refuse to sell them a single gas ring.

It's an admirable idea--and we all know the Pres of Armalite made a FOOL out of Rep. Kotowski over the AR-50 at a press conference. Still, it won't happen because citizens of Chi CAN go buy an AR in Illinois yet--just not in the city. Of course, the CAGE unit might get wind and try to raid your house over it, but I digress.

Daley wouldn't do it BECAUSE Armalite commonly sells to all citizens. He'll go Colt or, failing that, say go buy your own. Remember, this is the same man who said that retired CP officers are *NOT* allowed to carry concealed weapons in spite of the fact that he has no authority to make such proclimations.

There could be good RKBA spin for Armalite and the state if done right.

lysander
April 28, 2008, 12:45 PM
There could be good RKBA spin for Armalite and the state if done right.

Absolutely!! The spin could go for any of the EBR manufacturers in Illinois. It is a fairly clear example of the "for me and not for thee" attitude that so often coincides with the grabby politicos.

The recent violence in Chicago should serve as an INDICTMENT of a failed citizen disarmament policy. But....oooooohhhh no...the blame shifting gets tossed on the "unscrupulous gun dealers" downstate and in Indiana. Chicago's policies aren't failing, it is the other jerk's fault for not be willing to adopt Chicago's policies.

You want 1300 rifles...but you also want to run the companies that make those rifles out of business.

...strange logic.

Deanimator
April 28, 2008, 01:31 PM
He'll go Colt or, failing that, say go buy your own.
I'd refuse to sell to any Chicago cop. What's sauce for goose is sauce for the gander. Given the proclivity of the Chicago PD for attempting to entrap gun dealers, nobody should sell ANYTHING to ANYBODY with a Chicago address.

Neo-Luddite
April 28, 2008, 02:10 PM
Some gun dealers (I have been told) won't sell to Chicago residents. That's their perogative I guess, but as long as they have FOID the onus for complying with 'Dick Daley's' laws is on his subjects--who can lawfully own and whatever the heck they want and store it OUTSIDE the city.

I don't have any special grudge against Chicago cops as individuals--I just stay off their turf. The LEO's in my part of the world are very pro-RKBA and very community-minded; they live here and any bad eggs get weeded out pretty quickly. They also start out at like 13 or 14 bucks an hour.

Autolycus
April 28, 2008, 02:11 PM
By your logic Deanimator they should refuse to sell to any civilian becasue some are antis. The people in Chicago have the right to own firearms, just not in the city.

The Tourist
April 28, 2008, 02:42 PM
It's not the war on drugs, it's the war on altered states of consciousness...

Even if you're right, and I have some honest doubts, the answer is not having an untrained cop put a hole in someone's head (if he's lucky enough to hit anything) with an assault rifle.

How did crime during the Roaring Twenties actually end? Oh, we shot up Bonnie and Clyde, and their making a movie here in Wisconsin with Johnny Depp on Dillinger. But in the end it was investigation and repeal of the Volstead Act. It's common knowledge that Capone wasn't shot at all.

Do you thing bangers are going to be impressed if you spray every stinking one of them automatic fire? One dies, another takes his place.

I believe crime is curtailed as it always has been.

Neo-Luddite
April 28, 2008, 03:47 PM
It's not the war on drugs, it's the war on altered states of consciousness...


Here in IL they just added Salvia Divinorum--a formally un-regulated entheogenic/psychotropic plant to the list of substances that get you 10 years in prison (like LSD, etc).

I don't know that there really was any evidence to suggest a true NEED to prohibit the plant, but just to be safe, it's on the list.

No, guns and mind altering drugs legal or otherwise don't mix--and having kids tends to moderate one's views about de-criminalizing harmful drugs, but if CPD needs patrol carbines they should get them. Maybe with 5.45 x 39 Svt. uppers to take advantage of that cheap 11 cent ammo on the market right now.

Deanimator
April 28, 2008, 03:56 PM
By your logic Deanimator they should refuse to sell to any civilian becasue some are antis. The people in Chicago have the right to own firearms, just not in the city.
That's a very strange "right".

They should refuse to sell to Chicago cops because if Chicago doesn't want "assault weapons", it shouldn't have ANY assault weapons, AT ALL. I say give them what they really want.

El Tejon
April 28, 2008, 04:07 PM
Salvia Divinorum

I wondered for the past 15 years when the states and feds would get around to this stuff.

Fisherman_48768
April 28, 2008, 04:44 PM
The on line version:http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-chicago-police-assault-rifles,0,2104512.story"Many times they're outgunned, to be very frank," Daley said at an event in the Englewood neighborhood. "When they come to a scene, someone has a semi fully-automatic weapon and you have a little pistol, uh, good luck."
No further comment about
Daley is necessary.

cherryriver
April 28, 2008, 05:07 PM
Richard the First's most famous quote was "The police aren't here to create disorder... They're here to preserve disorder."
Richard the Second's best is "The money (for that public works project) shouldn't come from the taxpayers. It should come from the federal government."
While it's tough to top that, he's still trying with the semi fully-automatic thing. You have to appreciate effort like that.
Now, let's consider his "scrootening" line from a few years ago...

mata777
April 28, 2008, 07:58 PM
I wish other gun makers would have Mr. Barret"s policy on selling guns to agencies (if you don't allow citizens to own them then guess what, you can't buy them from me either).

shooter94
April 28, 2008, 11:23 PM
Gangs having better firepower than the police? Better get some gun control there. Oh...wait a minute! They do have gun control there. Does that mean gun control doesn't work?

Neo-Luddite
April 29, 2008, 11:05 AM
Someone once posted a scan of the letter when Richard I sent out notices of the first gun registration to his subjects in the late 60's;

It began with the line "Dear Friend"



I wish I was making that up.

NG VI
April 29, 2008, 11:34 AM
Heeheehee check out this Freudian slip!


Being the Governments are not allowed to use the military against civilians, only in time of insurrection, looks like they're getting around that by training our law enforcement agencies into the fine art of war-making on the populace. They already wear full combat gear when called upon, and use full military tactics. So what's the difference? What's next handgrenades and 203 grenade launchers. How about machine-gun mounted Brady Fighting Vehicles. I personally think this is over kill for local law enforcement. It is surly becoming a Police State.

Emphasis mine.

Deanimator
April 29, 2008, 11:44 AM
"When they come to a scene, someone has a semi fully-automatic weapon and you have a little pistol, uh, good luck."
Daley is a "semi-wit".

Nanook
April 29, 2008, 01:24 PM
Try this logic. Daley wants the Olympics in 2016, tons and tons of money to be scammed. Billions. He thinks it will cement his legend.

Oh, I don't know, somehow I think his "legend" is already cemented. He butchers the language even more than his father did. He does the same to the Constitution.

He brings cronyism to new heights, dare I say it, Olympian heights. He, and most of his underlings are so twisted it's a wonder they can stand upright.

His legend is cemented already. He is one of the lowest forms of human life. He makes me embarassed I was born in that city. I moved as soon as I was able, but I didn't move far enough.

Jim K
April 29, 2008, 01:28 PM
I wonder what the street price will be for an M4 when hundreds of those police guns "walk away and get lost"?

Jim

ilbob
April 29, 2008, 05:48 PM
I wonder what the street price will be for an M4 when hundreds of those police guns "walk away and get lost"?I'd bet they have pretty decent control over them.

However, I am reminded that over the years evidence that has disappeared from CPD evidence lockers has resulted in many hundreds of cases being tossed out for lack of evidence. Probably ten times as many would have been tossed except the defendant pled so never knew the evidence was missing.

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