In following up from...
On Saturday, 26 April 2008, the ISHOT1000 match was completed with a total of 14 shooters in Forestburg, Texas (north of DFW). First shots down range started about 8:45 am and the last shots were at 4:30 pm with a 1 hour break for lunch (450 rounds before lunch and 550 after). Mechanical problems causing guns to be unable to fire were considered to be malfunctions and were recorded. The goal here was not to diagnose the problem on the firing line, but to get a basic malfunction type identified and have the shooter clear the malfunction and continue to fire. Doing this quickly was important as stages were limited to 90 seconds for the 50 rounds required per stage (fired from 7 magazines). Every shooter was required to use 7 magazines per stage so that the numbers of magazine changes and slide lockbacks were kept standardized regardless of the platform being used.
The 90 second time limit here is a salient point. It was imposed to help assure the match progressed at a steady pace and to make sure shooters shot their guns sufficiently fast to heat the guns repeatedly and to keep shootings from trying to “game” the match by drawing out their 50 rounds into a several minute slow fire exercise to keep their guns cool. Shooters were permitted to exceed the time limit when it was obvious they were not trying to play the clock (such as because of malfunctions). Most shooters completed their stages in 60-75 seconds and a couple of shooters seemed to finish in less than a minute on a regular basis.
Overall, there was something of a bipolar distribution in performance. Eight of the guns suffered 3 malfunctions or less. The rest suffered 21-50 malfunctions. There were 3 guns that completed the COF of 1000 rounds with zero malfunctions. There were three guns that were DQ’d. No doubt that folks shooting reloads were at a severe performance disadvantage. The Glock 22 that DQ'd had a post mortem performed on it by the Glocksperts at the match and I believe it was determined that it had been way over lubed.
Environmental Factors – Temperatures ranged from the mid 50s in the morning to mid 70s by the late afternoon, about 50% humidity, sunny sky, but the range was mostly shaded via tree canopy.
All in all, the match turned out well. The participants came with good attitudes and had a good time. Strangely, after going the distance, few wanted to do any additional shooting even though most brought other guns for that purpose. While most of the attendees were from the DFW area, 1 shooter and guest came from the Austin area, 1 shooter from OKC, and 2 shooters made the 17 hour drive in from Phoenix for the match.
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April 27, 2008, 03:01 PM
April 27, 2008, 03:28 PM
This was painful to have to miss. But, the final day of the semester was yesterday. :(
The results are indeed interesting! Blazer. Wow! Wonder if Blazer ammo will now fly off the shelves. :D
Congratulations to all, for enduring the task, and for the safe completion.
April 27, 2008, 03:37 PM
I must say this is pretty cool. I am glad all the info was recorded, I enjoyed reading it. There needs to be more of these matches set up all over!:D
Double Naught Spy
April 27, 2008, 03:55 PM
Actually, that was part of the reason chieftain and his buddy attended. The intended this match to be a learning experience and want to replicate the match with a similar version at their range in Arizona. Their goal is to develop a sort of database of what does and does not work for folks. Maybe in a day or two, after they finally make it back home, he can elaborate more.
In the mean time, we will start planning for the IISHOT1000 in 2009.
April 27, 2008, 04:03 PM
Brenainn, if you enjoyed reading the results, you would have loved being there. It was my first encounter with such an event and I was very impressed.
The RSO's were profesional, yet relaxed and helpful. There were several excellent shooters who were willing to help us who aren't as practiced. Weather cooperated beautifully. The range itself is nicely shaded.
DNS really put on a first class soire. My father and I had a most excellent day.
April 27, 2008, 04:07 PM
For me, one of the more important lessons is to use factory ammo for any more of these contests.
Due to a brain f**t, my original ammo was not packed in the car, so a substitue pistol and ammo needed to be brought into play.
I have no one but myself to blame.
Good time, great opportunity to walk the walk and not just talk about how good your gun runs. My compliments to the other shooters and DNS for a great match.
April 27, 2008, 04:40 PM
Well done, guys - wish I could have been there.
April 27, 2008, 05:02 PM
This sounds like a match worth planning some vacation time for! :)
April 27, 2008, 07:31 PM
It's worth noting that there were no broken parts and no catastrophic failures.
DNS obviously put in a lot of work preparing the range and setting up/organizing the match--the result was that things went smoothly and what could have been a real grind was instead quite enjoyable.
I'll do it again, but my hand and my wallet are both agreed that I'll be shooting a 9mm next year. I was already regretting the choice to shoot 10mm before I got halfway through the match.
April 27, 2008, 07:34 PM
JohnKSa, yesterday your hand looked like we had taken turns hammering on it. How was it this morning?
April 27, 2008, 07:53 PM
Although I was not a participant, "thank you" for hosting and posting.
April 27, 2008, 08:55 PM
I'm new to reloading, so here comes a silly question I guess...
I thought that in general, it was an advantage to have custom hand reloads for competitions?
Why all the trouble then?
I shoot USPSA matches and bought the reloading components to reload .45 because EVERYONE reloads and it seems as if it's a rare thing to shoot factory ammo in competition.
April 27, 2008, 10:16 PM
IMO, people reload for competition
because it's cheaper
so they can have a load that just makes the power factor floor
so they can get a load that works well with their compensator
and, very rarely, because their reloads are higher quality than factory ammo.
April 27, 2008, 11:11 PM
Generally, my reloads have been just as reliable as factory ammo. Unfortunately, I did not put allot of time into testing the load I figured for the new powder I'm using. I chrony'd it today and found that I was averaging about 760fps. I'm suprised my slide cycled at all........no excuses, though. Thats the load I brought and my Beretta almost got DQ'd. Next year it'll be factory ammo for sure. I think reloads should be banned to eliminate possible issues like this and ensure an even playong field. I just couldn't swing buying the ammo and had the reloading components available.
Great match! I don't think I ever shot a match that was so much fun and set up so well. Special thanks to the staff and the other shooters. All of which had safety and cooperation in mind. I even had a little help weeding out two problem mags and question on what might have been stopping up my pistol. Great bunch of guys. I can't wait for next year.
April 27, 2008, 11:51 PM
I would like to thank you and your team for putting on a first class match. It was very interesting to say the least. Again thank you we had a blast.
Double Naught Spy
April 28, 2008, 12:18 AM
Issues of dirty guns...
Part of the reason to have guns run with malfunctions was to see how the guns performed over the course of 1000 rounds. Interestingly, guns fouling over time or drying out didn't seem to be an issue. Guns that ran well tended to run well over the entire 1000 rounds with malfunctions occurring more early than late (so dirty gun syndrome didn't appear to be a big factor). Guns running more poorly tended to experience problems throughout the match.
April 28, 2008, 12:20 AM
I thought it was a great experience. Currently pics are up at www.ishtacka.spaces.live.com They look pretty bad considering I had to drop the resolution for uploading. If anyone wants a certain pic or group let me know, I can email individual pics. Here is one of my favs
Johnksa's hand after a 1000 rnd dance with a 10mm pistol.
April 28, 2008, 12:39 AM
I'm not all that impressed with John's hand.
I mean c'mon, it didn't even blister.:)
April 28, 2008, 01:13 AM
My hand is famous... :eek: :DJohnKSa, yesterday your hand looked like we had taken turns hammering on it. How was it this morning?It's still sore and discolored, but not sore enough to keep me away from the GSSF match today. :D ...but sore enough that I shot a 9mm.
My trigger finger is bothering me more than the web of my hand, it was pretty stiff this morning.Currently pics are up at www.ishtacka.spaces.live.com Wow, I didn't realize how many pictures you took. Nice work!
April 28, 2008, 07:28 AM
0 Dark thirty. Just read this and have compelling need to answer.
DNS, Brian, is one of those folks that I am glad I didn't miss in my life time.
I hope to keep this short and get some sleep. The "boys" were a mob that would and Should make Texas proud. Even the ones from Oklahoma.
Nick and myself were more than graciously treated, and they laughed at most of my sophomoric attempts at humor.
Brian's range is grown man's playground. Yea, that good. To sweeten the pot he put it right in the middle of Gods country. Beautiful, rolling hills.
I shot the Kimber Warrior. Damnedest thing, like Brian said, had a failure to feed on the 37th round. On the next first magazine, first round I got a double feed, (in this match I only used my Wilson magazines, next time I will only use CMC power mags) I don't think it was the Mag, I think it was DFO. But it counts. After that she ran like a champ. At least tied or beat all the expensive IRON.
I met some wonderful folks out there. I would be honored to meet any and all again. I hope so.
My short pitch. First there isn't much to quibble about. I have some health problems that caused my some concern, and when I was real tired I was whining like a kid. But watching Jerry shoot that 1000, rounds in that 1911, made me feel rather small.
If you didn't come to this match, I strongly suggest the next one, or better yet the one close to you.
I think if we can get a large enough data base, I think we can have fun and put together a meaningful base of what REALLY works and what doesn't.
Now just because your favorite didn't finish on top, don't forget this data is only meaningful if we can apply the laws of large numbers. We need a bunch more of these shoots following the same protocols as closely as possible.
For shooting your own weapon at the match you are going to, remember to replace all your springs, oil appropriately (some run dry, some run wet) Good fresh factory Ammo, (nobody said having fun AND serving the shooting public was going to be cheap). Get a good nights sleep.
Some folks asked about using reloads. As Brian has clearly stated already, and I believe, that most of the problems were related to reloads.
The other problem from my perspective, is that shooting that weak cheese ammo you compete with is counter to what we are trying to accomplish.
Full pressure/speed factory ammo. Anyone shooting "custom" loaded competition loads is sandbagging. We are testing the weapon in these match's, not the shooter. For that reason I fully agree with Brian, that the future shoots should only allow full power factory ammo to level the playing field.
My ego is glad I was at the first, but most of you guys out there would have torn me up, I am sure.
Gentlemen, I am going to bed. Hope to sleep for about 20 hours, and hope to get our shoot organized for later this year in Phoenix. I will be trying to get Nick's and my Club to sponsor the shoot, Phoenix Rod & Gun. Please don't contact me yet. I will announce on this list when we start getting close.
Good luck, good shooting and God Bless.
PS Brian, Thank you.
April 28, 2008, 11:37 PM
First of all thanks to all who participated!
Next - I'd like to see more variety! I realize it's a challenge to get participants, but maybe limit each type to two entries? I like to see the 1911's and Glocks of course, but what about a CZ-75 or Witness, a Ruger P89, Springfield XD, and the Hi-Power? There are plenty of other worthy contenders out there.
Again thanks to everyone involved, very interesting!
April 29, 2008, 12:23 AM
I think chieftan hit it on the head.........reloads aren't what I carry and certainly throw a bunch of variables into the pot. However, if I didn't load them up, I would have had to miss the match altogether so I chose to take a chance but had a blast doing it!!! I was impressed with the Glocks and 1911's and hope to make a better showing next year.
Kudos to all the shooters who proved to be not only friendly and knowledgeable, but professional and safety conscious. Looking forward to seeing you all again next year!!:)
Double Naught Spy
April 29, 2008, 02:18 AM
The data table has been updated with more detailed information. There are now data on how many malfunctions per stage, all the malfunctions listed, the Glock 22 is now listed as a 2nd generation, and the 10mm ammo was properly described.
April 30, 2008, 10:19 AM
I shot the 10-8 with reloads. I was also that guy that dug ammo up from a storage can that has been in the ground for about 2 or 3 years. Yes that was ammo I used in the shoot.
In look at the distribution of my malfunctions which for the most part were a failure to go into battery when inserting a full magazine. The majority were in the first half of the match.
I would have that these types of problems would have increased as the match went on the firearm got progressively dirtier.
I have not idea how many rounds where through this pistol before I took it over but it has somewhere around 10k through it now. A new recoil spring might be in order. You think?
April 30, 2008, 10:42 PM
As we discussed before, my Commander is due a recoil spring too, But I'm not touching it till it quits working.;)
Double Naught Spy
May 1, 2008, 01:10 AM
Here is what Stage 1 looked like for those who are interested.
It involved head shots at 10 yards on steel targets with the steel angle away from the shooters such that splatter did not return to the shooters. The video shows all 14 shooters.