Problems at a Gun Show...


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Nugilum
April 28, 2008, 06:10 PM
I was at the Atlanta gun show last weekend, and we were told by the Sheriff's department before we entered that we were FORBIDDEN to sell or purchase firearms outside of the convention center. "All transactions are to be held inside the building only!"

WTH! :what: :fire: :mad::what::fire: :mad:

I made the mistake of calling him on it. I tried to be diplomatic and asked him some questions (ex: What's the difference with buying a gun out here and buying from an ad in the newspaper?) but got that classic "look" from him, and he walked off. I then had an officer follow me the whole time I was in the building. :cuss: He wouldn't even talk to me. I didn't purchase anything that required my ID. I even took a round-about path back to my car.

Regardless, I had a successful venture. I was able to get all the missing accessories for my AR and M1 projects (AR15-A2 stock, slings, bayonets, stock cleaning kits, etc.) :D

So was my treatment out of the norm for everyone else, or did my "People Skills" cause this situation?

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csmkersh
April 28, 2008, 06:18 PM
Did you get any badge numbers? If so, file a complaint with the State AG's office.

Nugilum
April 28, 2008, 06:24 PM
Wasn't smart enough for that... :o

RancidSumo
April 28, 2008, 06:25 PM
I'd have told him to leave me the **** alone and go stop some actual crimes.

chucrusty
April 28, 2008, 06:32 PM
personaly i would have asked him to help carry some of my purchases, since he was tagging along anyway!

mlw332
April 28, 2008, 06:36 PM
personaly i would have asked him to help carry some of my purchases, since he was tagging along anyway!


i agree he coulda at least been helpful in some way

TAB
April 28, 2008, 06:43 PM
I would have been asking every single ammo vender if they had any of the "black cop killer ammo"

Dismantler
April 28, 2008, 06:43 PM
There are signs at the NH gun shows that I attend forbidding parking lot sales. I never really gave them any thought. Guess it's because I did not have anything to sell...

My common time at a show is two hours, so that deputy would have had a long morning with me. :)

tntwatt
April 28, 2008, 06:44 PM
Sounds like he's show boating for re-election and the anti votes. He refused to answer your question because he knew he was outside of the law. Should have a video camera available (cell phone) to record the incident. Also should have recorded telling the cop following you that he was making you nervous by following you and that you considered it harrassment. Then file a complaint. (that's all assuming you have tons of money for needless lawyer fees needed to protect your rights.)

sort00
April 28, 2008, 06:49 PM
Heck I usually spend at 4hrs to 5hrs so I don't miss anything, and at One of the last 1's there was more action/trading done in the parking lot than inside:cool:

Robert Hairless
April 28, 2008, 06:59 PM
People skills? We don' need no steenkin' people skills.

So a guy goes to a pharmacy and says "Gimme a bunch of uppers."

And the pharmacist says back to him "Lemme see your prescription."

Then the guy says "What's the difference with buying pills in here and buying on the street?"

So the pharmacist calls the cops and the guy says to them "Virtuous people challenge authority. So prove to me that you're really cops, show me proof of your training, prove that you own the gun on your hip, where is the registration for that car you drove, what size uniforms do you wear, and where is your evidence that the laws you say you are enforcing were ever passed? Give me the name of each legislator who voted for them, his or her age, and evidence that he/she was duly elected. Just sayin'."

No offense intended. :)

ants
April 28, 2008, 06:59 PM
Maybe it can help to take a fresh look.

Our convention center has extensive contracts with a show organizer. It guarantees that the convention center will have no competing show of the same type on that same day (i.e, there won't be two gun shows at the same time). On that day it gives exclusive right to the show organizer to use the property for the intended purpose, exclusive of all other venders, swap meets, and private parties. This includes the entire property, not just the interior of the building. Since our local convention center is owned by the County, the county sheriff handles security and enforces the contract rather than a private security company.

It is quite possible that your deputy was just doing his job enforcing the convention center's contract. Maybe it had nothing to do with state or federal law. Also, maybe we should give some slack to the deputy who followed you. None of this was his fault, and he cannot refuse to do his job or he gets fired.

Kitchen_Duty
April 28, 2008, 07:00 PM
Without quoting any reference, "that don't sound right". I don't think they can totally stop you making a transaction unless the transaction is on private property. So... gun trades on the street?

Yeah I would have asked for a quote of the law they were enforcing and then ask what their name/badge number was. I like the police when they are doing their job but not when they are not.

-Kitchen

blkbrd666
April 28, 2008, 07:00 PM
Was that the Norcross show? Could have driven across the street and made the sale. I like the carrying of the stuff though..."Protect and Serve"...did you feel safe? At least you had a loaded weapon handy in case it was needed.

Atla
April 28, 2008, 07:01 PM
TWO HOURS?

That's it? Man - I'd spend most of the day there. It takes a while to look and handle most of the guns, go through the books, etc.

Than you have to check out the girlfriends the other guys brought to see if you can snag one.

mgregg85
April 28, 2008, 07:02 PM
Nice job man, way to tell him like it is.

Don't ever be afraid to tell any public official how it really is if you know you are in the right. It must be done and the guy deserved it.

Next time call the NRA right in front of him and make a complaint. Ask them for the state AG's number and try calling him if available.

Never be afraid to do whats right. Never be afraid to exercise your rights.

axeman_g
April 28, 2008, 07:54 PM
Norcross... The Civic Center there frowns on deals outside of dealer tables. I sold a pistol there last year down the street, I had it with me but consumated the deal elsewhere.

It sort of the house rules. Still it is usually a good show.

Was Rifleman from Macon there? He is a good guy, a blind gun dealer that know his stuff and does good business. How about Pete from Hit&Run... he has the table with some Bren Guns on it, usually up front near doors.

I miss those good shows...

markk
April 28, 2008, 08:08 PM
Maybe there were Anti's outside trying to document the terrible "gun-show loophole" and the Sheriff was just trying to prevent Billy Joe and Bubba from being on the 5 o'clock news for selling dangerous assault weapons of mass destruction out in the parking lot...

JohnBT
April 28, 2008, 08:11 PM
""All transactions are to be held inside the building only!" "

They rented the building and the parking lot, so their rules. No big deal. If the city made the rule, well, it's their property to manage as they see fit. I don't see what the problem is.

John

ravencon
April 28, 2008, 08:17 PM
It is quite possible that your deputy was just doing his job enforcing the convention center's contract. Maybe it had nothing to do with state or federal law. Also, maybe we should give some slack to the deputy who followed you. None of this was his fault, and he cannot refuse to do his job or he gets fired.

It is NOT the job of LE to enforce private contracts. Using the color of authority to do so is an abuse of power and they should be sanctioned for doing so.

Rosstradamus
April 28, 2008, 08:19 PM
None of this was his fault, and he cannot refuse to do his job or he gets fired.

Like when the New Orleans cops went house-to-house confiscating legally owned firearms after Katrina? I hope you're this sympathetic and understanding when they come after you.

Atticus
April 28, 2008, 09:28 PM
I'm not trying to be a smart a#$...but the main reason is that the show promoter and dealers are not there to provide you with a convenient opportunity and location to buy/sell your guns to/from other people. It is a business venture. I assume there was a cover charge? Would you pay that and buy a corn dog if you never had to go in the door? Secondly, from a legal perspective, they are trying to discourage 'door sharks' (back-door dealers) from running a business on their dime.

WayneConrad
April 28, 2008, 09:44 PM
They solve the problem here in Phoenix by charging you a hefty fee for parking. They don't care if you do your business in the parking lot, because they already got a piece of you.

Smart fellas, these free market types.

buck00
April 28, 2008, 09:52 PM
I then had an officer follow me the whole time I was in the building

That is pretty bad. Sounds like someone didn't like you questioning them, and wanted to punish you for it. Yup, badge numbers would have been in order here. Some LEOs are tough guys until you get their badge number. ;)

Nugilum
April 28, 2008, 10:33 PM
All the deputy had to say was "Company Rules" or "Contract Rules" and I would have understood. Instead I got nothing but the look of "Did You Just Question MY AUTHORITY!?" :scrutiny:

I know not all LEOs are this way. Only a small percent are jerks.

I was too annoyed with the situation to take names and badges. Like I said, it never crossed my mind. They were not going to ruin my fun time. Besides, once I determined the detective wasn't going talk to me, I decided to ignore him. I was careful with my conduct, and a few vendors looked at me a little funny, but as the saying goes, "Life Goes On".

I got home three hours later and got bust building my AR from scratch! :D It looks and functions beautifully! :evil:

Standing Wolf
April 28, 2008, 10:37 PM
It is quite possible that your deputy was just doing his job enforcing the convention center's contract.

I think it's much more probable he was throwing around his authority.

RoostRider
April 28, 2008, 11:03 PM
Is it legal/legit to sell band T-shirts, on your own, in the parking lot for that bands show at the *YourAdHere* Arena?

From my perspective- Assuming the cop is hired as security- and keeping in mind that I didn't read every response and haven't thought about this a whole lot, so I could be way off base- please feel free to counterpoint me....

The cop doesn't have an obligation answer your inquisition as to why the rule is the way it is ... he doesn't have to know the answer even (sure, he should, but thats just a bad employee, not akin to a violation of your rights)... and he doesn't have to stand there and be asked again and again either.... had you asked to speak to his supervisor, and he walked away, I am betting he would be violating a policy of his employer... but I bet policy says it's acceptable to just walk away from anyone who is- a jerk/degrading/smelly... you get the point.... there is likely nothing illegal or wrong about what he did...

As to being followed around by a cop from that point on (assuming it wasn't the same cop)... are you sure you aren't paranoid?... :)

Are you sure you weren't just going through the place in the same manner he was?.... did you maybe think he was following you and then act strangely, thus legitimizing his following you? Who knows... or, maybe he just heard from his buddy that "that guy is a freak", and decided to make his rounds with you... you know, there could be any number of reasons...

Doesn't sound to me like anyone violated you in any way (yikes!), but I understand why it would make you feel uneasy... it sure would me...

damien
April 28, 2008, 11:27 PM
This is why I say that all on-duty cops should be required to wear an A/V recorder that records everything they and everyone around them says plus wide angle video at their 12-oclock. Cops need to know someone is always watching them and their actions can be scruitinized after the fact.

doc2rn
April 28, 2008, 11:53 PM
Sidewalks are public and transactions that are face to face if legal in the state can be done on them.

bogie
April 29, 2008, 12:21 AM
They were probably cops -getting rented to provide security- and part of the security that the show's promoter wants, and you can't really fault him, because renting a facility that size costs some pretty decent cash, is that he doesn't want folks -taking money away from HIS paying customers (the folks who rent the tables) by hanging outside the doors trying to hawk crap.

Personally, I hate running a gauntlet of "hey, you wanna buy my granddad's thutty-thutty for more than wally world wants for a new one?" every time I go to a show...

meef
April 29, 2008, 12:33 AM
TAB:I would have been asking every single ammo vender if they had any of the "black cop killer ammo":scrutiny:



Are you implying something about the Sheriff's ethnic origin?

akodo
April 29, 2008, 01:25 AM
""All transactions are to be held inside the building only!" "

They rented the building and the parking lot, so their rules. No big deal. If the city made the rule, well, it's their property to manage as they see fit. I don't see what the problem is.

If it is a city rule, (and not in voilation of some other rule set, fine)

Otherwise, you can hang whatever sign you want. Free speech and all that. Doesn't mean you have to obey the sign. Heck they could hang a sign saying you have to speak in pig latin if doing a parking lot deal.

I'm not trying to be a smart a#$...but the main reason is that the show promoter and dealers are not there to provide you with a convenient opportunity and location to buy/sell your guns to/from other people. It is a business venture. I assume there was a cover charge? Would you pay that and buy a corn dog if you never had to go in the door? Secondly, from a legal perspective, they are trying to discourage 'door sharks' (back-door dealers) from running a business on their dime.

I understand what they are trying to do. It is like bringing your own beverage to the movie theater. However it isn't illegal, the worst they can do is ask you to leave. If you don't leave, then it is tresspassing, not "Illegal beverage"

However company provided parking areas are generally considered 'for your convenience' and you retain most of your rights and responsibilites. No movie theater would be able to say "No drinking beveages in the parking lot!" even though the people who slam the last half of a bottle of coke before going into the theater are less likely to buy overpriced theater beverages

akodo
April 29, 2008, 01:26 AM
Quote:
I would have been asking every single ammo vender if they had any of the "black cop killer ammo"

Are you implying something about the Sheriff's ethnic origin?

he is referring to black talon i.e. the bullet is black, not the target

jrfoxx
April 29, 2008, 02:43 AM
I dont have any issue with those running the show, who either own or are renting the property, from saying if you want to do a transfer on their property, it must be done indoors. You can just go off thier property to make the sale, if you dont like it, and all they could do is not let you back in, so....

The main thing I have an issue with here, and I have seen it more than a few times, and not just at gun shows, is cops, in thier officail police uniform, being hired by private individuals to work as security. I have no problem if a cop or anyone else wants to have a second/part time job doing security, but I dont think they should be allowed to wear thier police uniform when doing it. When in uniform, but being paid and under the orders/control of the private party that hired them, one could easily argue that they are no longer representing and beholden to the citizens that that uniform represents as an official, taxpayer funded, LEO position, working for the people, but are now acting for a private person, and enforcing thier rules and wishes, not just the law. I dont think people would be all that keen seeing 30 Marines in full battle rattle, with M4's (issued or even privately owned) working security for some indiviadual in thier free time, looking "official" guarding somebody's house or business. Again, the uniform implies you are working for, and beholden only to, The People, not "a person". Even if the cops and Marine's I mention were 100% above board, at all times, in every action, it's still the impression that the uniform gives.

Hopefully that makes sense. NOT a "cop bash" at all, and I'm guessing law and department policy allows LEO's to wear the uniform during private work, or it wouldnt get done very often at all, I'm just saying I dont think it should be allowed for the above reasons.

coloradokevin
April 29, 2008, 04:00 AM
They rented the building and the parking lot, so their rules. No big deal. If the city made the rule, well, it's their property to manage as they see fit. I don't see what the problem is.

I'm not trying to be a smart a#$...but the main reason is that the show promoter and dealers are not there to provide you with a convenient opportunity and location to buy/sell your guns to/from other people. It is a business venture. I assume there was a cover charge? Would you pay that and buy a corn dog if you never had to go in the door? Secondly, from a legal perspective, they are trying to discourage 'door sharks' (back-door dealers) from running a business on their dime.

^^^ Exactly what these guys said.

Many of the gun shows I have been to have similar signs, and I don't think it is a problem. The promoter doesn't want you making money off of his event without even paying to get into the event. They are paying for the show, so it is their show!

I don't know why everyone always seems to get their panties in such a twist about their assumed "rights" around here... Why would you call your state's attorney general's office on this? What would that possibly accomplish? Essentially we are looking at a situation where a private landowner leases his/her venue to a gun show promoter, who chooses not to allow sales outside of the show. Where is the crime on the part of the promoters? There isn't one.

coloradokevin
April 29, 2008, 04:05 AM
The main thing I have an issue with here, and I have seen it more than a few times, and not just at gun shows, is cops, in thier officail police uniform, being hired by private individuals to work as security. I have no problem if a cop or anyone else wants to have a second/part time job doing security, but I dont think they should be allowed to wear thier police uniform when doing it. When in uniform, but being paid and under the orders/control of the private party that hired them, one could easily argue that they are no longer representing and beholden to the citizens that that uniform represents as an official, taxpayer funded, LEO position, working for the people, but are now acting for a private person, and enforcing thier rules and wishes, not just the law.

Actually, when we work off-duty we are bound to the same requirements that we have on-duty.

We only enforce law, not policies of the employing third party. We are forbidden from enforcing management rules, unless they revolve around law violations (like a trespass issue). Thus, we are in no way under the "orders" of the employing third party.

Officers who violate this type of policy are often disciplined in the same manner that they are for on-duty conduct.

Every event that I work off-duty requires the signature of my Sgt and Lt, and a form is filed at HQ indicating where, when, and for who I worked. The places that hire us MUST be on contract with our city, and the contract explains these requirements. Additionally, I have to call out at the location on radio with dispatch.

Think of it as an on-duty officer being paid to remain stationary at that location. It really works well for the community, because they get extra policing for free (this is the case at many airports, bars, night clubs, sporting events, etc).

Just so you CO guys know, every officer working at a Rockies or Broncos game is also an off-duty officer... and their services are not being billed to the tax payer!

BigO01
April 29, 2008, 04:09 AM
After about a half an hour with the clown on your tail you should have stopped , looked him dead in the eye and said " I have to go to take a leak , you gonna come hold it for me or just watch ?" .

I bet he would have left you alone the rest of the day .

86thecat
April 29, 2008, 04:13 AM
If your shadow was concerned you would conduct a sale outside the building then following you INSIDE makes no sense other than harassment. Asking a uniformed officer questions about law/policy does not excuse harassment. Too bad your shadow wasn't babysitting some mall ninga who would have handled every firearm and swept him with the muzzle of each.

jrfoxx
April 29, 2008, 06:59 AM
coloradokevin-
thats what I assumed was the case for the most part, and wasnt trying to really say that I think LEO's are actually generally acting as "hired cops", it was more along the lines that when they are in uniform, but working private security, that is just an impression it gives me, and likely others, and I think the impression alone could cause people concern.

I also mention it, as it seems the LEO that the OP had a "run in" with WAS acting as a "hired cop", while in uniform, as he seems to have been enforcing the private owner/renter's POLICY as opposed to any law. So, it seems to me that based on what I get from the OP, at least 1 LEO was enforcing private business policy and not just the law, while in uniform, but wotking an "off duty" security job.That, and the impression of possible impropriety, is why I was saying I dont think LEOs should be wearing thier uniforms while working in a private capacity.If they are sent there by thier department to "keep an eye on things", while on duty, in an official capacity, thats a differen, and understandable thing altogether, and I have no issue with that.

If the people running the show want you to not make deals outside the building the show is in, thats fine, but they should not have LEOs enforcing that policy, the owners, rentors, and/or vendors should be doing it themselves.

tinygnat219
April 29, 2008, 07:11 AM
Shoot,

I would have had a good time with it. Ask his opinion on certain firearms, ammunition loads, and whether a Dillon really is the "best" press out there for reloading.

The key here is to always be polite. Ask if he's comfortable, if he'd like a drink or a burger (saying you'll fly if he buys). From there, I'd ensure that I got his name, badge number, etc.

Then, once all was said and done, this is where FOIA is your friend. FOIA ALL communications between deputy blank and his superiors on what guidance was given to forbid private sales during a gun show, then do a separate FOIA for the Police Report that deputy such and such was doing following you.

Should make for interesting reading.

Hk91-762mm
April 29, 2008, 07:24 AM
As a former gun show dealer I say YEEaaaaaa!!!
When I pay Big money for 4 tables [up tp $100.00 each plus travel expense ]and walk out to the car for somthing and see a second gun show going on in the lot -I think why did I spend all this money -Just go set up in the lot!
What cranks me the worst is I never get a shot at purchasing anything good someone wants to sell as the lot boys are all over it 5X before it gets inside !
Good for them! Im betting the dealers were asking them to stop lot sales!
In NY its ILLEGAL to sell a gun in the lot As all sales have to go through an FFL,,Frankly If someone is selling a gun we walk to the potty and someone else carries it out.

redneck2
April 29, 2008, 07:38 AM
Suppose you own a carpet store. Somebody pulls up in a van and starts selling rugs in your parking lot. After all, it's a free country. Bet you'd have them run off.

There was a show on TV about the Barrett-Jackson car auction. One of the attendees had a sign around his neck about a collectable car he had as a private sale. He got booted in a hurry, but couldn't seem to understand why. Idiot.

I agree with the above post. IMO, the original poster is dead wrong. Also, some of the replies here make you look like jerks. The cop was just doing his job. As noted previously, they don't go to all the time, work, and expense of putting on a show so you can have your own private (free) playground.

El Tejon
April 29, 2008, 07:43 AM
I wish a cop would follow me around at a gun show. I'd make him carry my ammo.:D

meef
April 29, 2008, 09:49 AM
I would have been asking every single ammo vender if they had any of the "black cop killer ammo"

Are you implying something about the Sheriff's ethnic origin?he is referring to black talon i.e. the bullet is black, not the target:rolleyes:

You reckon?

:D

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