Why cant they carry yet?(pizza drivers)


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Eric F
April 28, 2008, 07:03 PM
http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?s=8232936

By Esther Pierre
Pizza Delivery Driver Shot and Killed in Portsmouth

Posted: April 26, 2008 10:47 PM EDT

Updated: April 28, 2008 08:58 AM EDT




PORTSMOUTH, VIRGINIA (WAVY.COM) His moher says they were aware of the safety issues, but because he's been doing it for so long deliveries became a way of life for 50 year old Robert Kieswetter.

Margaret Chipman says her son Robert had three delivery jobs. He delivered flowers, he delivered newspapers, and for at least ten years, he delivered for Papa John's pizza.

"Be careful, be careful" were her last words to her son as headed to the Papa John's in the Churchland section of Portsmouth.

"The last time I saw him was about ten minutes to six" Chipman said.

About five hours later, Portsmouth police say Kieswetter was shot and killed at Edgefield Apartments on Craney Brook lane.

"I'm stunned and I'm trying to hold myself together" Chipman said while she sobbed.

she's also angry. Chipman says something needs to be done about crime, and the safety of delivery drivers.

Chipman said "I wish they'd do something about the dope, the gangs, the guns."

Steven Savage is working on that. He delivers for Domino's, and he's part of the American Union of Pizza Delivery Drivers. He says drivers shouldn't compromise safety for a sale.

"Don't let your ego get in the way. If you don't feel safe don't do the delivery" Savage cautioned.

He says caller I.D. is a great way for pizza companies to protect their drivers.

Savage said "by using caller I.D., we can call back new customers and make sure they're legitimate."

Savage adds that although pizza delivery drivers seem like easy targets, drivers rarely leave the store with more than 20 dollars.


Drivers shouldnt compromise their safety for the sale:fire:..........how about the job!:banghead: When I delivered I carried thats why I only do it part time in the winter. Thugs tend not to hang out doors in the winter and I can wear a jacket to CCW with.

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Jim K
April 28, 2008, 08:55 PM
Companies who hire drivers are in a legal bind. If they allow the driver to be armed, then they become legally liable if the driver (their agent) shoots someone accidentally, or shoots at a robber and injures an innocent person. If they don't allow the driver to be armed, they can't (at least in current law) be held liable for what he does or is done to him, since being armed was not part of his employment.

Frankly, it is a heckuva bind. Short of hiring only off-duty police officers, there is no good answer. We would like to think that an armed driver would protect himself and harm no one but those who deserve it. But we also need to recognize that an armed driver, even possibly one licensed to carry, might be a trigger-happy idiot, or worse.

Jim

Henry Bowman
April 28, 2008, 09:46 PM
If they allow the driver to be armed, then they become legally liable if the driver (their agent) shoots someone accidentally, or shoots at a robber and injures an innocent person. Depends on the state. Immunity for employers (for acts of a license holder whether they allow or disallow CCW) is the one thing Ohio got right with its relatively young CCW law. No immunity for acts of a non-licensee (i.e., criminal).

Kind of Blued
April 28, 2008, 09:55 PM
But we also need to recognize that an armed driver, even possibly one licensed to carry, might be a trigger-happy idiot, or worse.

First of all, I assumed illegal non-licensed carry was not the topic here. Second, what makes a delivery driver with a CCW more of a "trigger-happy idiot" than you or anyone else with a permit to carry? Anybody with a gun can be a trigger-happy idiot, but that seems like an argument for an anti to impose.

I'm not sure how you view people who hold such a job, but here's a point-of-view. I'm a delivery driver, and at my place of employment, there are 10 college degrees between the eight of us drivers. In comparison, there are four college degrees amongst the seven employees in management. You'll find that often the "hired help" is in that position by choice, because they have bigger plans for themselves and are working hard outside of work to achieve those goals.

Standing Wolf
April 28, 2008, 10:33 PM
Companies who hire drivers are in a legal bind. If they allow the driver to be armed, then they become legally liable if the driver (their agent) shoots someone accidentally, or shoots at a robber and injures an innocent person. If they don't allow the driver to be armed, they can't (at least in current law) be held liable for what he does or is done to him, since being armed was not part of his employment.

The fear of lawyers is a cancer in our culture.

Tyrannosaurus
April 28, 2008, 11:19 PM
When I was in highschool in 93-94, I delivered pizza in several neighborhoods, including a few very low-income neighborhoods. I worked for a local pizza place, so I didn't have a big light-up sign on top of my car like some of the major chains do.

On several occasions, I wished I had a firearm. Since I routinely had to drive slowly through these streets, looking for addresses that were almost never properly marked, young men would often walk up to my car, thinking that I was interested in buying rocks. Driving slowly down a street in general was dangerous, because of the suspicion of drive-by shootings.

Due to a legitimate sense of fear, I bought a handgun illegally from someone in my highschool. It was a little 25, over and under pistol, the tiniest thing I had ever seen. I think I paid 50 bucks for it. Though I had been brought up with rifles and shotguns, there was no way I would have been able to explain it to my parents.

My dad ended up finding it in my car console. He took it to the garage and took a hammer to it, rendering it completely unusable. I was in big trouble for a long time.

I'm sure that what he did was the right thing, as far as parenting goes. I don't think he understood how dangerous my job was, on the other hand.

jakemccoy
April 28, 2008, 11:43 PM
Jim wrote,Companies who hire drivers are in a legal bind. If they allow the driver to be armed, then they become legally liable if the driver (their agent) shoots someone accidentally, or shoots at a robber and injures an innocent person. If they don't allow the driver to be armed, they can't (at least in current law) be held liable for what he does or is done to him, since being armed was not part of his employment.


That's a cop out. There is no legal bind. Show me a case to prove your point.

The company can easily have a "don't ask and don't tell policy." The company wouldn't be held liable for every action of the driver out in public, particularly if the action is outside the job description. If companies were really as risk averse as you suggest, there would be absolutely no pizza delivery anywhere in the U.S.

The bottom line is that the company execs are anti-gun and don't care about the safety of their drivers.

hunterSthompson
April 28, 2008, 11:56 PM
i am a pizza driver and i pack a beretta 9000's in .40 cal and my boss knows i have had to pull it 3-4 times and pointed it someone twice saved my butt once no doubt. but bottom line if you feel you need to pack and can do so legally do it. ccw means know one knows it any way and they can fire you only if you lived though what ever was going down any way. so live and then deal with the junk

remember to tip no less then 10% gas is 3.60 after all :)

Eric F
April 29, 2008, 01:34 AM
Since I have been doing pizzia delivery on and off for 18 years here in Va I thought I would do a bit of research........every last company requires the driver to have Insurance on their car. Reason why, if the employee in involved in an accident the company can not be held liable its the employees problem. I have searched several sources and can not find a single incident where a Pizza chain has been sued succsessfuly for their drivers acts. I specifically know of 3 seperate incidents where empolyees shot a nother person trying to rob them each time the criminal was killed the criminals family tried sueing the company and the individual and all six cases ended the same........company and shooter get a free walk. Therefore I can only determin that In Va it makes no diffrence if the company is allowing ccw or not bassed on drivers are responsible for their actions while driving, not the companies. I have emailed the local pizza driver union refrenced in the news story I will follow up with any information.

Ragnar Danneskjold
April 29, 2008, 04:10 AM
When I was a pizza drive, I was considerd an independant contractor. That's how I filed my taxes, and that's how I as employed. I also carried routinely and my boss knew. He encouraged it. This pizza place was also an independant store. It seems to me that the big chain stores, like Dominoes and Pizza Hut are the ones bogged down by policy and regulations. It's not uncommon at all for independant pizzarias to allow their drivers to carry.

And as a PSA, remember that waiter and waitresses are expected to get 15% tip, and they are not putting miles and wear an tear on their cars, or burning gas to bring you your food. Be a good person, tip your pizza driver a decent amount. At least 15% or more. He's using his own car, buying his own gas, and has to deal with the weather. Not something you can say for waitresses and waiters. And no, the "delivery fee" that some places charge does not, has not, and will never go to the driver in any way shape or form.

86thecat
April 29, 2008, 04:28 AM
As long as a driver carries legally and is only breaking company policy - "don't ask, don't tell" and "concealed means concealed". If a driver needs to defend themself a new job is easier to get than a new life.

Dr. Peter Venkman
April 29, 2008, 08:38 AM
They can't carry yet because people believe (including members of this board) that the right to self-defense is best left regulated to an employee's place of business, since they feel that the right to property of the business is greater than the right to self of the employee, contractual obligation or not. That's all it really comes down to.

Let them carry if they see fit, lawyers be damned.

fordfan485
April 29, 2008, 09:09 AM
I used to work for Papa John's in the same general area as that guy that was killed for 4 years. I carried my keltec p3at on me every day. yea papa johns has a no weapon policy but I would have rather lost my job than my life. Anyways I got out of that buisness last september cause of gas prices and wear and tear on my car. I dont see how anyone doing that job now is making any money at the current price of gas.

Double Naught Spy
April 29, 2008, 09:39 AM
They can't carry yet because people believe (including members of this board) that the right to self-defense is best left regulated to an employee's place of business, since they feel that the right to property of the business is greater than the right to self of the employee, contractual obligation or not. That's all it really comes down to.

Let them carry if they see fit, lawyers be damned.

The law doesn't state which is the greater right, so the argument about greater rights is moot.

Plus, it isn't the lawyers that are damned when companies get sued. If anything, suits make lawyers happy.

Dr. Peter Venkman
April 29, 2008, 10:00 AM
The law doesn't state which is the greater right, so the argument about greater rights is moot.

Plus, it isn't the lawyers that are damned when companies get sued. If anything, suits make lawyers happy.

The law sides with private enterprise most of the time given the fact that businesses can make their premises gun-free zones if they see fit. I disagree heavily with this sentiment.

Lawyers (corporate, private, etc) get to dance around the self-defense issue with company policy. Screw 'em!

TAB
April 29, 2008, 10:04 AM
question, all of you guys that say employeers should not have a choice rather or not thier employees are armed. Have any of you ever owned/ ran a biz?

MASTEROFMALICE
April 29, 2008, 10:10 AM
ANYONE who steps foot in Portsmouth should be armed. Hell, most of them are.

Majic
April 29, 2008, 10:12 AM
Depends on the state. Immunity for employers (for acts of a license holder whether they allow or disallow CCW) is the one thing Ohio got right with its relatively young CCW law.
Legality isn't the real issue. Complying with the insurance company's policy is the major concern.

freakshow10mm
April 29, 2008, 10:21 AM
I worked for Papa John's in the Green Bay (WI) area as a teen. At the time there wasn't a weapon policy, but WI doesn't have concealed carry there. I knew of drivers that carried. As a manager, I was more worried about their safety than anything else, so I never said anything.

Currently I work as a pizza jockey as my other job. I have a CPL and carry all the time. My employer doesn't have a weapon policy. I'm pretty sure he knows I carry.

The guy that does the training around here ordered a pizza and they were trying to confirm the address. I whipped out his business card and confirmed it. The owner asked if that is the pistol training guy from the paper. I said yes, that's how I know him, I took the training. He gave me that look. Nothing has ever been brought up about it.

DocRob
April 29, 2008, 10:52 AM
Here in Ohio we had a pizza delivery person defend himself with a concealed pistol. The shooting was ruled justified by the prosecuting attorney and the company he delivered for did not take disiplinary actions against the driver for carrying a concealed weapon.

WinchesterAA
April 29, 2008, 10:23 PM
It's a rule nobody I knew when I did it abided by.

Just a CYA measure by the company, and drivers assume that if they have to shoot somebody they're probably going to get fired, and maybe sued.

jakemccoy
April 29, 2008, 11:01 PM
The concept of "you could be sued" is completely different from "you will lose a civil suit". You can be sued for anything. If I lived my life by what I could be sued over, I wouldn't leave my house.

In the case at hand, I have never heard of any civil liability a pizza company has suffered as a result of public actions of a delivery person outside the job description. For awhile now, I've looked for cases and have asked people to provide me such a case in any state. I have yet to see one. We have here an urban legend sparked by people who have vaguely heard of the concept of "respondeat superior" and then ran wild with the hype.

By the way, I run a business. If you work for me, "don't ask and don't tell" about carrying concealed with a license. My policy is consistent with state law. Look up the state law if there's a question.

hobgob
April 30, 2008, 04:00 AM
One of my best friends is a delivery driver! Him and I have had conversations about this sort of situation. The corporation he works for does not allow employees to carry while working. IMHOP, this is BS. Delivery drivers are caught between a rock and a hard place. The employer tells them they can't carry on the job, yet they have to have a sign on top of their vehicle that pretty much says "hey! I have lots of small bills on my person and no way to protect myself at a red light!"
Any would be carjacker is then alerted to the drivers vulnerability. If a company can't afford to provide their employess with proper security, then at least let their employees provide it for themselves!

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