Armed standoff between West Palm Beach customer, store workers ends in arrest


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misterwhipple
April 29, 2008, 02:18 PM
From the Sun-Sentinal: (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-429storestandoff,0,1376760.story)

WEST PALM BEACH - Memo to shoppers: Next time Mr. Whipple tells you to stop squeezing the Charmin, pay attention. He might be packing heat.

So watch it, Bub!

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Phil DeGraves
April 29, 2008, 02:24 PM
What? No blood in the streets? No gunfight at the OK Corral? No police shooting the wrong people?
The store employees showed great restraint. I guess the Antis lied to us...

Sans Authoritas
April 29, 2008, 02:31 PM
Police said the problem started when store manager Marino Hernandez shouted at Grant that he was walking into the store through the wrong doors.

How easily this whole mess could have been avoided. Why did he feel it necessary to yell about such a trivial matter?

-Sans Authoritas

DragonFire
April 29, 2008, 02:32 PM
So the bad guy didn't have a CCW and acted stupidly (and recklessly and criminally) and the good guys had CCW's and act smartly and safely.

You bet that those facts will be lost on the media and the anti's.

I have to give credit to the store managers. If someone started shooting at me, it would be a hard decision not to shoot back.

Seancass
April 29, 2008, 02:33 PM
so who's mister whipple?

JaxNovice
April 29, 2008, 02:38 PM
You bet that those facts will be lost on the media and the anti's

Did we all just not read this from a media publication?

Rokyudai
April 29, 2008, 02:39 PM
SeanCass,

He was a fictitious grocery store manager on a Charmin toilet paper television commercial who would always scold the ladies who wanted to squeeze the the toilet paper because it was, well, so darned soft.

IllHunter
April 29, 2008, 02:39 PM
R u Serius? Mr. Whipple was the charater in the great book, Crime and Punishment.:neener: I can't believe they held fire while being fired upon, perhaps they should go to NYC and teach police response technique. How uber kool was that... And it goes to show me, age don't bring brains.

MakAttak
April 29, 2008, 02:40 PM
How easily this whole mess could have been avoided. Why did he feel it necessary to yell about such a trivial matter?

-Sans Authoritas

Could have been easily avoided. Why did he feel it necessary to threaten deadly force over such a trivial matter?

Methinks you are placing the blame on the wrong person...

Sans Authoritas
April 29, 2008, 02:46 PM
Mak, there's no doubt the guy who pulled out a pistol is totally out of line, and is the far more grievous offender. But do you not admit that this whole situation might have been totally avoided if the store owner had a little tact and civility, and had not yelled at someone for going through automatic doors the wrong way?


-Sans Authoritas

romma
April 29, 2008, 02:46 PM
How easily this whole mess could have been avoided. Why did he feel it necessary to yell about such a trivial matter?



Well we weren't there, and we don't know the original demeanor of this customer, his past history at the store or anything else.

I don't think employed store managers yell at customers or potential customers unless there is a reason.

This guy was probably already acting erratic before he pulled his gun.

Sans Authoritas
April 29, 2008, 02:48 PM
Which should hammer home the point all the more: don't yell at people who are acting erratically.

This whole situation reminds me of a poster who said he couldn't walk too well (also in a supermarket?) and said to a young punk, "You're blocking the aisle!" instead of, "Excuse me, sir, can I get by?" The punk became irate (absolutely out of proportion to the rudeness, yes) and in the end, the man was forced to draw on him.

Would the use of lethal force be justified in such a situation, if threatened? Yes. But is it far more prudent and desirable to be able to avoid such situations before they start, merely by using a little common courtesy and humility on one's own part? Oh, yes.

-Sans Authoritas

gym
April 29, 2008, 03:20 PM
As long as no one asks who the Beatles were, I can still hang here.

MarcusWendt
April 29, 2008, 03:22 PM
Quote:
You bet that those facts will be lost on the media and the anti's

Did we all just not read this from a media publication?

I think that fact was lost on the poster :D

MarcusWendt
April 29, 2008, 03:24 PM
As long as no one asks who the Beatles were, I can still hang here.

Everyone knows who those communist hippy rabble rousers are.

Poper
April 29, 2008, 03:34 PM
Sans Authoritas:
Enough of your tripe!
Your constant propensity to argue in favor of BG's and demean other's on this board that do not agree with your viewpoint has earned you the distict recognition as the lone THR member on my ignore list.
Congratulations.
You earned it.
Poper

W.E.G.
April 29, 2008, 03:38 PM
Mr. Whipple is Ringo Starr's uncle by marriage on his mother's side, and first cousin once-removed of the Zig-Zag man.

Rokyudai
April 29, 2008, 03:40 PM
...and Thin Lizzy "Jail Break" comes on the radio....sweet.

Zoogster
April 29, 2008, 03:46 PM
A great result.
Nobody injured. The 72 year old man must have been pretty poor with his weapon for them to feel confident in approaching him like they did.
It sounds like he fired at least 4 shots in the story, perhaps more as we know the media is often off in the minor details. So they may have in fact confronted him when he ran out of ammo in the revolver?

Either way amazing restraint, more than I would have given to a man finding cover and then opening fire on me from behind that cover.

We really don't know what happened though. Perhaps everyone was correct in thier own minds. A 72 year old if a bit senile could feel he was in fact justified in his actions if a couple men came and attempted to physicaly remove him from the store. Seeing it as self defense against two stronger younger men physicaly attacking him for no reason.
Some individuals are a bit fast to put hands on someone, especialy someone they don't find intimidating.

So who knows.
All we know is the guy pulled out a gun and the workers showed amazing restraint in not firing back at the man, and nobody was injured.

MarcusWendt
April 29, 2008, 03:51 PM
I'm glad it worked out the way it did, but did they really have to yell at the old guy? No excuse for the old guys reaction, but I hate employees of any company who over react to small issues and I HATE people who are disrespectful to the elderly.

misANTHrope
April 29, 2008, 03:53 PM
So the bad guy didn't have a CCW and acted stupidly (and recklessly and criminally) and the good guys had CCW's and act smartly and safely.

You bet that those facts will be lost on the media and the anti's.

I have to give credit to the store managers. If someone started shooting at me, it would be a hard decision not to shoot back.

Careful with the assumptions. I see no mention of the store employees having permits. Doesn't make their actions any less laudable, mind you.

lloydkristmas
April 29, 2008, 03:56 PM
How do we know the manager actually "yelled" at the guy? Maybe he just asked him not to use that particular door, and the old guy (who is already off his rocker) saw it as "yelling"? I wonder where that part of the story came from? The old guys account? The account of some bystander? Who knows. Either way, it didnt necessitate drawing a gun.

Zoogster
April 29, 2008, 03:57 PM
You usualy don't need a permit on private property with permission from the owner.
That means in a mom and pop store, or family owned business anyone and everyone can be armed with no permit.

nplant
April 29, 2008, 04:04 PM
I agree with Sans Authoritas in principle - if you carry a gun as a civilian, you owe it to yourself and your family to avoid needing to "whip this out."

However, I don't know if "yell" was what happened, or if there were special circumstances regarding the exit door, so I won't say that this could have been avoided by not engaging the weirdo with a revolver.

Anyway, in my minds' eye, I'm seeing that the whackadoo is huddled behind a car in a parking lot full of cars (and potentially people), which is fronting a street with traffic, which is in turn fronting another shopping center or residential neighborhood on the opposite side. So, in my opinion, restraint or not, those workers did the absolute right thing - be ready for a shot, but don't risk hitting innocents.

Good thing the basket case in this incident wasn't a better shot, otherwise we would be having a different kind of discussion.

BAT1
April 29, 2008, 04:05 PM
This reminds me of the scene on the subway in Predator, everyone drew their guns. The bad guy knows he's having a bad day when that happens. The person realizing how bad a shot the B/G was saved his life, by not shooting him, but what if a ricochet killed some one?

Soybomb
April 29, 2008, 04:31 PM
Which should hammer home the point all the more: don't yell at people who are acting erratically.

This whole situation reminds me of a poster who said he couldn't walk too well (also in a supermarket?) and said to a young punk, "You're blocking the aisle!" instead of, "Excuse me, sir, can I get by?" The punk became irate (absolutely out of proportion to the rudeness, yes) and in the end, the man was forced to draw on him.

Would the use of lethal force be justified in such a situation, if threatened? Yes. But is it far more prudent and desirable to be able to avoid such situations before they start, merely by using a little common courtesy and humility on one's own part? Oh, yes.
Great post. For all the posts I read with people worrying about legal troubles after a self defense shooting, you would think more THR members would do what they can to avoid confrontation in the first place even if it means being the person to back down or being far more polite than the other person deserves. Avoiding a situation where guns are required should always be the goal even if you can shoot back.

romma
April 29, 2008, 04:34 PM
As long as no one asks who the Beatles were

Who? :neener:

gym
April 29, 2008, 04:37 PM
I hear he's been selling his ammo along with his prescription medication, to buy food. Sucks getting old. Me I'm getting a walker with 2 twelve gauge barrells for legs. I think i'll call it Walker Texas Ranger

TwitchALot
April 29, 2008, 04:40 PM
Sans Authoritas:
Enough of your tripe!
Your constant propensity to argue in favor of BG's and demean other's on this board that do not agree with your viewpoint has earned you the distict recognition as the lone THR member on my ignore list.
Congratulations.
You earned it.
Poper

What "tripe" are you talking about? Certainly not this, I hope: "Mak, there's no doubt the guy who pulled out a pistol is totally out of line, and is the far more grievous offender. But do you not admit that this whole situation might have been totally avoided if the store owner had a little tact and civility, and had not yelled at someone for going through automatic doors the wrong way?"

I completely agree with Sans. This was a shooting over essentially, the way someone walked in a door. This was probably a shooting that could have, and should have, been avoided. What's wrong with that?

romma
April 29, 2008, 04:40 PM
Great post. For all the posts I read with people worrying about legal troubles after a self defense shooting, you would think more THR members would do what they can to avoid confrontation in the first place even if it means being the person to back down or being far more polite than the other person deserves. Avoiding a situation where guns are required should always be the goal even if you can shoot back.


Well, back in the day, long before I carried, I worked in a convienence store in a bad part of town, and full of a lot of bad people.

You needed to repel a lot of the crap and antics with an aggressive front, or you would be overrun with more problems than you would ever know you could have.

Again, perhaps there was a track record with this particular customer that we do not know about.?

Sans Authoritas
April 29, 2008, 04:56 PM
Romma wrote: Again, perhaps there was a track record with this particular customer that we do not know about?


Romma, it's definitely a possibility.

-Sans Authoritas

Sage of Seattle
April 29, 2008, 05:01 PM
I completely agree with Sans. This was a shooting over essentially, the way someone walked in a door. This was probably a shooting that could have, and should have, been avoided. What's wrong with that?

Absolutely nothing.

However, as we've all seen, even doing "everything right" can still get you killed and/or shot at. So, the manager in this case shouldn't have yelled, if he did, but he certainly did what he was entitled to do -- which was tell an unruly customer to leave the property.

My guess is that the yelling didn't actually start until AFTER the old guy started arguing about "getting hassled" when he walked into the store.

All down the line, it was the old guy escalating the encounter until he finally pulled his illegally carried pistol to do what -- prove his point? Kill the manager perhaps? Show the world he wasn't gonna get pushed around anymore?

In fact, I just got told off about ten minutes ago after politely inquiring about a job application I had faxed yesterday. (I just hope, for that business' sake, that I'm going to be replacing that nasty woman at the front desk! ;)) Should all business people be polite? Of course.

But it takes two to do the gunfight tango...

Sans Authoritas
April 29, 2008, 05:02 PM
And Mak, if you felt demeaned as a result of anything I said, I do apologize. It was not and would not be my intention to demean anyone.

-Sans Authoritas

hill billy
April 29, 2008, 05:18 PM
I did note in the end of the article that the store had been robbed several times. Perhaps enforcing entry and exit was one way of keeping tabs on the rabble. This would have caused the managers, et al, to be at a higher state of alert or stress.

AndyC
April 29, 2008, 05:29 PM
I have a question...

If it's an automatic door, how can one possibly walk through it from the wrong side? Why would one have a sensor on the "wrong side" in the first place?

cedjunior
April 29, 2008, 05:55 PM
What I don't understand is, why do some people think that once you start carrying a weapon you can no longer do or say anything that contradicts another human being ever again for fear of starting a confrontation? These managers worked at the store, they're doing their fricking job!

The grocery store I frequent, a Kroger here in Irving, had 2 sets of interior automatic doors. One says ENTRANCE and leads to the open part of the front of the store, the other door says EXIT ONLY and leads to the area behind the cashiers where there is nowhere to go except through the cashier lines to get through the store. I'd guess the employees of that store wouldn't wane everyone to start going in that way instead of the door clearly marked ENTRANCE. Just a little example to throw out there for those who always have to question "why?'

Steve N
April 29, 2008, 06:06 PM
Please also post text of article along with link.


Armed standoff between West Palm Beach customer, store workers ends in arrest
By Jerome Burdi | South Florida Sun-Sentinel
10:55 AM EDT, April 29, 2008
Article tools
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Digg Del.icio.us Facebook Fark Google Newsvine Reddit Yahoo Print Reprints Post comment Text size: WEST PALM BEACH - Memo to shoppers: Next time Mr. Whipple tells you to stop squeezing the Charmin, pay attention. He might be packing heat.

A West Palm Beach man pulled out a gun in an argument with two supermarket managers, who then whipped out their own guns, police said Tuesday.

The man fired into the store and at one of the managers, but no one was injured, police said.

Marshall Grant, 72, is charged with attempted murder, shooting in an occupied building, aggravated assault and carrying a concealed firearm in connection with the 5 p.m. Monday incident at the IGA Supermarket at 1000 36th St.



Related links
'Don't fire your weapon, sir.' Audio
'I was trying to get outside with my kids.' Audio
'I see a guy here waving a gun.' Audio
Crime & Safety: Find predators, see latest reports and tips
Supermarket standoff

Marshall Grant, 72, is charged with attempted murder, shooting in an occupied building, aggravated assault and carrying a concealed firearm. (Photo courtesy of PBSO)

Police said the problem started when store manager Marino Hernandez shouted at Grant that he was walking into the store through the wrong doors.

The men got into an argument, and when Hernandez told Grant he should take his business elsewhere, Grant pulled out a revolver, police said.

An assistant manager, Roberto Espinal pulled out his gun and pointed it at Grant, police said.

As Grant backed out of the store, Hernandez also pulled a gun, police said.

Grant fired three shots into the store, which had several customers inside, according to authorities.

Hernandez yelled at Grant to drop the gun.

Instead, Grant got behind a car and pointed his gun. He shot again, this time at Hernandez, police said.

Hernandez did not return fire, police said.

The two managers got on either side of Grant and told him to drop the gun because police were on their way. He did.

"They have a right to protect their business and themselves," police Capt. Pat Maney said. "They showed great restraint by not firing back ... That store has been robbed several times."

nplant
April 29, 2008, 06:08 PM
cedjunior -

I don't know about other folks, but in my opinion, the whole reason for carrying a gun is to hedge my bets that I'll make it home safely. So for my perspective, why would I engage in rude or confrontational behavior that could escalate emotions over something that isn't a big deal? Pride can take a back seat in my car - I'd rather walk away from something minor and de-escalate a bad situation. If that's what you consider "no longer say[ing] anything that contradicts another human being ever again for fear of starting a confrontation," so be it. I can live with that.

Now, that said, there are times to put one's foot down. This situation may have been one of those times, but again, we don't know one way or the other, having not been present at the time. The article makes the shooter appear to be not all there upstairs. Even if it started as an innocent misunderstanding on the shooter's part, to retreat outdoors, take cover, and continue firing says to me that this guy was nuts. I suspect that there was no way around this particular situation.

Poper
April 29, 2008, 06:28 PM
I found SA's three posts prior to my post very condescending to the OP and Mak. SA has no more information than the rest of us, yet he assumes the "yelling" started the confrontation. (Obviously that is incorrect as the storekeeper yelled at the offender for not using the proper door.)
He then tells us what should/could/would have taken place if.... Yet all turned out well in the end regardless. Any independent thinker can imagine twice as many justifications for the reactions of the storekeeper.
SA's 3 posts were typical of his historical posts:
1) Take the BG's side by default,
2) do so in a condescending manner,
3) make every effort to get in the last word.

From now on I will not read SA's posts. I do not find his reasoning interesting nor of value. JMHO, FWIW. There may be others that feel the same towards me. If so, please let me know. I will endeavor to do better on The High Road.


I apologize if my post(s) offend(ed) any THR members. It is (was) not my intent.

Respectfully,
Poper

misANTHrope
April 29, 2008, 07:31 PM
I have a question...

If it's an automatic door, how can one possibly walk through it from the wrong side? Why would one have a sensor on the "wrong side" in the first place?

There are several ways to get around this. Back when I worked at Dick's, we had a "one-way" setup like this in place. The idea was that people leaving the store would have to walk by the cashiers, to help prevent theft. Of course, the smarter thieves would just work in teams. One would take the merchandise and mil around by the entrance door, while the other would go out the real exit and then walk close enough to the entrance door to trip the sensor.. and the first guy walks right out the entrance.

And you really didn't even have to do that. We employees regularly had to step outside to load a safe or some such, and we didn't feel like going around the cashier lines But all you have to do is grab the sliding doors and pull them open a little bit, and that trips the mechanism to open them the rest of the way.

In short, it's easy to go "in" through "out" doors.

jaholder1971
April 29, 2008, 07:37 PM
I found SA's three posts prior to my post very condescending to the OP and Mak. SA has no more information than the rest of us, yet he assumes the "yelling" started the confrontation. (Obviously that is incorrect as the storekeeper yelled at the offender for not using the proper door.)
He then tells us what should/could/would have taken place if.... Yet all turned out well in the end regardless. Any independent thinker can imagine twice as many justifications for the reactions of the storekeeper.
SA's 3 posts were typical of his historical posts:
1) Take the BG's side by default,
2) do so in a condescending manner,
3) make every effort to get in the last word.

From now on I will not read SA's posts. I do not find his reasoning interesting nor of value. JMHO, FWIW. There may be others that feel the same towards me. If so, please let me know. I will endeavor to do better on The High Road.


I apologize if my post(s) offend(ed) any THR members. It is (was) not my intent.

Respectfully,
Poper

You got the guy pegged. No worries.

TwitchALot
April 29, 2008, 09:08 PM
I found SA's three posts prior to my post very condescending to the OP and Mak. SA has no more information than the rest of us, yet he assumes the "yelling" started the confrontation. (Obviously that is incorrect as the storekeeper yelled at the offender for not using the proper door.)

I'm not sure how you construed SA's posts to be condescending at all, let alone, "very condescending." If you actually read what he said, SA did not insult anyone and brought up a very important point- avoid confrontation when you can. With the information we have (inadequate as it is), this confrontation may have very well been avoided with a, "excuse me sir, could you please use the proper door for entering next time." This is what I think, and what I think SA thinks, should have been done. Neither of us are making excuses for the BG and his actions nor are we defending him. But with what we know, the situation could have been handled much better, and it probably would not have ended with shots fired if it had been.

He then tells us what should/could/would have taken place if.... Yet all turned out well in the end regardless. Any independent thinker can imagine twice as many justifications for the reactions of the storekeeper.
SA's 3 posts were typical of his historical posts:
1) Take the BG's side by default,
2) do so in a condescending manner,
3) make every effort to get in the last word.

SA did not "take the BG's side by default." He, and I, both condemn the actions of the BG. The BG is completely responsible for his actions and for drawing upon and firing at the managers, no question about it. Sans said so himself. But could this situation have been handled differently such that shots wouldn't need to be fired? We both think so.

None of us have all of the facts or all the information, but using the same report, both sides messed up, and lead to shots being fired in a market (not exactly an ideal place for a gunfight, if there is any). If he was "very condescending" as you say, I'd like you point out exactly what was so condescending. I saw nothing offensive and a rather important point regarding how someone should behave toward others- respectfully. And quite frankly, as it applies on THR and in the real world, if people dealt with each other respectfully at all times, we wouldn't have most of the problems we do today.

blackhawk2000
April 29, 2008, 09:55 PM
The managers were not so smart. When it's time for unholstering it's time for shooting, and the time for talking is over.

ara27499
April 29, 2008, 10:14 PM
I do not find his reasoning interesting nor of value.
Ditto.

ara27499

hobgob
April 29, 2008, 10:26 PM
Police said the problem started when store manager Marino Hernandez shouted at Grant that he was walking into the store through the wrong doors.

sans authoritus said:
But do you not admit that this whole situation might have been totally avoided if the store owner had a little tact and civility, and had not yelled at someone for going through automatic doors the wrong way?


sans, maybe you have other sources, but I don't see anything about automatic doors. Could it not be that the guy was trying to walk in through a back or side door with intention of robbery? To me that might warrant a more stern response.

Rachen
April 29, 2008, 10:28 PM
I guess the Antis lied to us...


You guess??? How can you guess that the antis are lying to us, if all of their lives, they have been trained and conditioned to lie like credit card thieves?

Phil DeGraves
April 30, 2008, 10:26 AM
"This was a shooting over essentially, the way someone walked in a door. This was probably a shooting that could have, and should have, been avoided."

That statement assumes an awful lot. If a person is going to be escalated just by informing him that he is coming through the wrong door, then I seriously doubt that his intentions at the store were of a benevolent nature. Maybe there was an urgency that the manager saw that precipitated him shouting. Maybe he was some distance away and was shouting to be heard. We weren't there. We don't know. The other assumptions are just as valid. What we do know is a guy walked into the store, argued with the managers and drew a gun. The managers took responsibility for their own safety and responded in kind. Sounds good to me.

"The managers were not so smart. When it's time for unholstering it's time for shooting, and the time for talking is over."

Easy to Monday Morning Quarterback that too. What is the backstop on the far side of the BG? Innocent civilians? Don't know. You just can't say "they should be shooting." Most people are unwilling to put a round in another person, especially when he is retreating. What would Sans have said about that?

Phil DeGraves
April 30, 2008, 10:31 AM
"(Mr. Whipple) was a fictitious grocery store manager on a Charmin toilet paper television commercial who would always scold the ladies who wanted to squeeze the the toilet paper because it was, well, so darned soft."

And Billy, the little kid in the commercial was none other than Adam Savage (Mythbusters).

WayneConrad
April 30, 2008, 10:37 AM
When it's time for unholstering it's time for shooting, and the time for talking is over.
Nonsense.

Statistics show that 90% of self defense uses of a firearm do not involve a discharge of the firearm.

Would you convert all of those into shootings?

MakAttak
April 30, 2008, 01:20 PM
And Mak, if you felt demeaned as a result of anything I said, I do apologize. It was not and would not be my intention to demean anyone.

-Sans Authoritas

Don't worry, people in person would have enough trouble trying to demean me, an internet conversation is extremely unlikely to affect my self-image.

I do, however, think you made unnecessary and faulty assumptions, but since none of us were there, we cannot comment on how best this would have been avoided.

This is why I placed the blame squarely on the law-breaker.

gym
April 30, 2008, 02:35 PM
As far as the question about not being able to go the wrong way in thru an electronic door, wrong, when I had the club, some idiot would open the door by forcing it open every 3 months or so. They are just in a hurry, and see that the door is open and also sometimes get caught in it as it's closing and then force it open or closed. It's amazing what jerks are able to accomplish.

fletcher
April 30, 2008, 02:42 PM
But do you not admit that this whole situation might have been totally avoided if the store owner had a little tact and civility, and had not yelled at someone for going through automatic doors the wrong way?
It could be quite possible that the manager was not near the door(s), and yelled across the store so that he would hear.

Bones11b
April 30, 2008, 02:58 PM
Having not been a witness to the incident I'll try and keep my comments to areas where I have personal experience. Many stores especially privately owned stores have specified entrance and exits to avoid crime. Not only to deter shopliftng as was previously stated, but also to protect the cashiers and front area of the store. Being that this store had been robbed previously, and given that the store managers were on a high enough level of security to both be armed, the entering thru the exit may well have been a breach in their security standards. To avoid having BG's block both entrances and exits from the inside many stores take measures to discourage such a possibility. If indeed the managers felt this person entering was enough of a threat that they suggested he take his business elsewhere, I would be led to beleive that in their opinion confronting him was the prudent decision. I doubt the same type of power hungry mid level manager that I would associate with yelling at some poor little old man for using the wrong door, would then have enough self control to not draw first when the confrontation escalated, and to also not fire back when fired upon; but instead contact the authorities.

1911Tuner
April 30, 2008, 03:07 PM
What a train wreck.

Being rude and causing someone embarassment in public is a good way to provoke a confrontation that can quickle escalate into something that it needn't have been. It's no harder to be polite than to be rude.

"Walk Softly and carry a big stick," so the man said. Good advice. Very good, indeed!

Or...as heard in Road House:

"Be nice...until it's time to not be nice."

blackhawk2000
April 30, 2008, 08:04 PM
If some thug pulls a gun on you, and you pull your own gun, the time for talking is long over with.

This isn't a James Bond movie, where the hero is tied up, and slowly lowered into a tank of sharks with lasers on their heads, with no guard nearby to foil his plans for escape.


And yes, I would have much prefered all the cases where a firearm was used in self defense, resulted in the BG's immediately getting shot at. There would be far fewer BG's alive, and a whole lot less willing to go out, and rob people. Not to mention all the documented self defense shootings, instead of estimates. Rob a person, forfeit your life. I really could care less if the BG had a bad childhood, or whatever. Kill them all as far as I'm concerned.

TwitchALot
April 30, 2008, 09:07 PM
That statement assumes an awful lot. If a person is going to be escalated just by informing him that he is coming through the wrong door, then I seriously doubt that his intentions at the store were of a benevolent nature. Maybe there was an urgency that the manager saw that precipitated him shouting. Maybe he was some distance away and was shouting to be heard. We weren't there. We don't know. The other assumptions are just as valid. What we do know is a guy walked into the store, argued with the managers and drew a gun. The managers took responsibility for their own safety and responded in kind. Sounds good to me.

The statement assumes quite little. Can you dispute it at all? My statement, if you recall, was, "This was a shooting over essentially, the way someone walked in a door. This was probably a shooting that could have, and should have, been avoided." Emphasis mine.

While none of us know what happened, given what the article says, this was not merely, "informing" someone that they are coming through the wrong door, unless you think me yelling at an anti counts as "informing" that person about RKBA. No doubt in the latter case you would find that to be a rather counterproductive method of convincing an anti he is wrong, no?

The fact that someone has a short temper doesn't mean he's in a store to rob it. That is an assumption, and one that cannot be justified. Is it a stretch, however, to say that this whole incident could have probably (again, emphasis mine) been avoided if the managers (given what we know) had been more respectful about it? I don't think so.

Bones11b
April 30, 2008, 09:41 PM
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2008/04/29/0429groceryguns.htmlTuesday, April 29, 2008

WEST PALM BEACH Being a lousy shot might well have saved Marshall Hugo Grant's life.

After Grant fired three times Monday from the doorway of the King IGA grocery store, manager Marino Hernandez made a split-second decision not to fire back.

"I was afraid he was going to keep shooting, but I already had in mind that he wasn't a good shooter," Hernandez said Tuesday.

Grant, 73, appeared Tuesday morning before Judge Nancy Perez, who ordered him held without bond while he undergoes a psychiatric examination.

Grant was a daily customer who'd never been a problem, said Hernandez, who manages the large supermarket at 1000 36th St.

On Monday afternoon, Grant and Hernandez argued after he tried to enter the store through the exit.

"I said, 'You know what? Take your business elsewhere,'" Hernandez said.

Grant then drew a handgun. Assistant manager Roberto Espinal, behind a side counter, drew his gun. When Grant turned that way, Hernandez pulled his gun.

It was 5 p.m., and the store was jammed with customers, loading up for dinner on their way home, who hadn't counted on a three-way standoff.

Grant made the first move. He backed out of the store and started firing.

One bullet struck the front wall above the doorway, one hit the wall beside the door, and one imbedded in the ceiling over the cash registers.

One cashier, all of 16 years old, was on her first day on the job.

"A lot of chicken was left on shopping carts," Hernandez said. "Customers started screaming, going for the floor."

But, he said, "I'm a quick thinker. When I saw the first bullet hit high, right away I knew I was dealing with someone that was not a good shooter."

The two managers surrounded Grant as he backed into the parking lot, hid behind a car, and fired a fourth shot.

"He said, 'You calling the police?'" I said, 'Hell, yeah I am.'" Hernandez said. "I said, 'Put the gun down. Put the gun down. It's not worth it.' Then he said, 'You're going to beat me up if I put the gun down.' I said, 'I'm not going to beat you up.' "

Police then arrived and took Grant away. He was charged with attempted first-degree murder, shooting into an occupied dwelling, aggravated assault with a firearm and carrying a concealed firearm.

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