[10 Ringer']

After the short lived (and in some places continuing) love affair with the wonder 9 during the revolver to wheelgun switchover in law enforcement circles, and more recent move back toward the .40, .357sig and .45ACP, why hasn't Europe followed suit? The new CZ P01 adopted by the Czech government for example is so far only chambered in nine as were many of their other products until they started marketing them in the USA with chamberings in 40 and 45. The way I see it, could be a number of reasons:

1. Badguys there still fall to a 9 like our bad guys somehow don't (though I'm sure I would!!) unless a .45ACP is in action.

2. Politics and budgetary constraints make sense to arm the police like the military or NATO standard (though LAPD SWAT doesn't seem to follow Uncle Sam)

3. Could it be a matter of preceived cultural differences as in American power=45ACP whereas Europe doesn't believe in bigger is better=9mm?

4. Or, could it just simply be a matter of controllability and slightly better ease of aim from a small service pistol as weighed against making a bigger hole in the badguy (or possibly an innocent bystander)?

Thoughts and opinions... anything I'm missing?

[Kobun]

I don't even remember the last time someone was shot by the police here.
They still use S&W M10 .38 revolvers, but the gun that is brought from the station the times a gun is needed is the HK MP5.

[Wildalaska]

Thoughts and opinions... anything I'm missing?

How about...Europeans dont have gun magazines trying to convince cops that they should spend more tx payer $$ switching from one effective caliber to another...

WildormaybeitjustworksfineAlaska

[CMcDermott]

I think it's mostly cultural - pistols aren't really weapons in Europe, they're more symbols of office. They want something as small and light as possible - see how popular 30 & 32 caliber pistols are in Europe. When they have any expectation of needing force in European countries, they all bring out MP5's - just go through their airports sometime. U.S. A. gun culture is different - I guess it's the wild west gunfighter tradition that holds that pistols are indeed serious weapons in large calibers and tends to look down on small calibers as inadequite.

[CWL]

Why even experiment with other calibers when the rest of the (free) world is standardized on 9mm?

It is the standard issue for police and military (sometimes these are one & the same).

What would justify the cost of replacing these weapons?

[jc2]

Because it works just fine.

[Tamara]

It's the single most common caliber for military & police pistols and SMG's world-wide, and has been since at least the 1930's. It must be doing something okay. ;)

[clubsoda22]

nothing wrong with 9mm. It stops bad guys just fine. Only problem is that a lot of cops can't hit a thing with their pistols. Most departments handgun qualification courses are pitiful.

[Standing Wolf]

I'd guess it's because staid old Europe is decrepit and set in its ways.

[Lancel]

It's like football versus soccer. Cultural differences, both are crowd pleasers.

Larry

[agtman]

"Why is ... Europe still sticking with the 9mm?"


:rolleyes:

Well, let's see. Possible answers include:

(a) We're Americans, so why should we care if the French gendarmes love their cute little 9mm HKs? :neener:

(b) Having a (mostly) free market economy here allows American civilians, LEOs and LEAs choices & options to experiment with, even in the more regulated "marketplace of guns & ammo." In 99.9% of European countries, by comparison, no such "choices" exist for pistol ammunition, which is typically restricted to the police and military anyway. So it's not like "Europeans" in general have a huge range of choices in pistol calibers other than 9mm.

(c) For police and military units in Europe, the use of the 9mm as a pistol caliber is a top-down mandate. No deviations are permitted. So that's what gets issued. And that's what European ammomakers continually produce in what is, essentially, a command economy in small arms and munitions.

(d) When it comes to "crime control," Europeans want to appear "civilized." So most Euro countries (1) severely restrict or outright ban the private ownership of handguns, and then (2) restrict their police to the largest caliber least likely to hurt anyone or create a mess if it's actually used in a violent criminal encounter.

Hence, the 9mm is the obvious choice. :what:

:evil:

[El Tejon]

9mm pistols are lighter thus easier on the Euro before they are dropped in surrender.

[Oracle]

It could simply be that they don't fall for the "Caliber War" bs that so many Americans seem to fall prey to. Which do you think would improve the ability of the police to stop those whom they shoot, $20,000 spent on changing their guns to a slightly larger caliber, or $20,000 spent on providing effective training to the officers?

[Obiwan]

Let me see....

Maybe they have not figured out that the only way to get new weapons is to....

Absoultely need a NEW and IMPROVED caliber

Because 9mm will do the job...if you do yours!

[Chris Rhines]

What the Jedi said.

The 9mm will do if you will do; conversely, if you won't do, even a .600 Loudenboomer won't cut it...

- Chris

[JohnKSa]

After the short lived (and in some places continuing) love affair with the wonder 9 during the revolver to wheelgun switchover in law enforcement circles
Huh?

I think your starting premise shows a complete lack of information about LEO carry guns outside the U.S.

Lots of LEOs in Europe were carrying autopistols before WWII.

And, other than in the U.S. the "love affair" with the wondernine has been going on since the Browning HP was introduced in the 30s. The love affair with the 9mm autopistol has been going on for 30 years longer than that. Hardly short-lived.

The .45, the .40 and probably the .357Sig are all targeted for the U.S. market. Europe never used them much to begin with, so how could they move back to them?

[Tamara]

I thought a "Wondernine" was technically a DA/SA high capacity 9mm, thereby disqualifying the GP-35. I think the S&W 59 was the first to put a DA trigger and a double-stack mag in the same gun, actually.

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

I had no idea "wondernine" was such a codified term. I had thought hicapacity was the only prerequisit.


So a Glock 17, Beretta 92D and P7M13 aren't wondernines?

Coulda fooled me.

[WonderNine]

My P-35 is a Wondernine!!!

[jc2]

I've always used "wondernine" for all high capacity nines (including the P-35, but it pre-dated the term).

I'm still not convinced (and there is absolutely no way to verify) that the "wondernine" is still not the most widely used handgun in American LE just based on the size of a number of the agencies that still authorize (or require) a nine. San Diego, LA (PD and Sheriff), St Louis, NYC (and suburbs), etc. represent an awful lot of LEOs. I know Winchester, Speer and Federal have spent big bucks developing the current generation of LE 9x19 ammunition--there must be a market for it because these are all profit driven companies. I think "the short lived (and in some places continuing) love affair with the wonder 9 during the revolver to wheelgun switchover in law enforcement circles" was shortlived in the gunrags--not necessarily law enforcement. The rumours of the death of 9x19 in LE are greatly exaggerated.

[Gary A]

In a slight deviation, despite the perception that American pistoleros have all preferred the larger bores, seems to me that Wild Bill Hickcock preferred a brace of Navy Colts in (gasp) .36 caliber. Apparently he shot them better and faster was not concerned with what folks thought about the size of his bore. The biggest bore of all is the endless debate.

[Tamara]

"Death" of the high-cap nine in police holsters? Probably not, but it doesn't have the dominant position it once did.

For a while, if you said "cop gun" to me, I would have immediately thought ".38 K-frame". Then, for a large chunk of the late '80s, the first gun to spring to mind would've been "9mm Smith autochucker". Now, it'd be ".40 Glock". It may not have the majority share its loyal adherents would claim, but it does have a fairly sizeable plurality. (At least as far as # of agencies goes. As far as total # of pistols, it'd take a lot of sheriff's departments using .40 Glocks to make up for LA's Berettas and NYPD's 9mm Glocks...)

[Quartus]

Well, I have to agree with the "cultural differences" argument that some here have made.

After all, look at American cars & especailly trucks compared to theirs. Seems to me they just like dinky little things.



:D

[JeepDriver]

Could it be the almost 100 years the 9x19 has been around?

Could it be the 9mm works?

[jnb01]

As was stated by a couple of other folks, LE hit ratio's are very poor, as most officer's simply do not spend adequate amounts of time on the range, as many departments do not allocate the necessary money for it. Additionally, most do not attend tactical training courses or practice on their own time, so proficiency is left wanting.

Those who make the decisions within LE departments, often try and solve a software problem with a hardware solution, foregoing advanced levels of training yet adopting a caliber that's harder to shoot. How might I ask, are hit ratio's supposed to "improve" given this scenario?

Many U.S. Departments still issue or authorize the 9mm, here's a short list.

NYPD
NYSO
LAPD
SDPD
Santa Clara PD
LA Co. sheriff
San Bernadino PD
NJSP
Chicago PD
Philadelphia PD
Atlanta GA. PD
St. Louis PD
Palm Bay Fl. PD
LVMPD
Dallas TX. PD
US Customs
Ect. Ect.......

Looks like even some folks here in the U.S. still feel the nine is just fine.;)

All of the service caliber's benefit when the best ammunition available for them is used. Ranger, Federal Tactical, and the Gold Dot usually top the list, and most agencies seem to be utilizing one of these brands, it seems the Gold Dot and Ranger bullets are most popular.

I for one, would never sacrifice even the slightest amount of "shootability" for any real or percieved ballistics performance advantage. One may exist between the 9mm and the larger service calibers, though it appears to be less than originally thought when all are properly loaded. However, can the shooter capitalize on any benefit that may be offered by the larger caliber, by controlling the pistol and firing it well enough to accurately and rapidly place their shots on target, particularly while under stress? If not, where does the advantage come in?

Best, jnb01

[Tamara]

Atlanta GA. PD

Ironically, the only PD in the metro ATL area I can think of that does. Georgia State Patrol carries the G22, and when the state police sneeze, all the smaller LE agencies in the state tend to catch a cold. :uhoh:

[Ky Larry]

It's because we're Americans and they aren't. We like bigger and more.
We invented V-8 engines,football, rock-n-roll, Harley-Davidsons, and the .45 ACP.
They invented Volkswagens, chamber music, soccer, Vespa scooters, and the 9mm Parabelum.
There are two types of people in the world- Americans and those who wish they were. Thank God I was born in the U.S.A.

[M67]

Because we are smarter?


(We need a smiley for "I'm grabbing my nomex undies and running for cover" :D )

[Ky Larry]

Not smarter,just different. Remember, America was founded by the people Europe didn't want. Our ancestors were the misfits, horsethiefs, malcontets, illigitamit children, and religious fanatics that got kicked out of Europe. These people built the greatest nation in history. How many people build rafts out of lawn chairs and styrofoam coolers and sail the open seas to get to Europe? How many people try to hide in the wheelwells of aircraft to get to Europe? How many million immigrant visas do Europen nations have to turn down every year? If you're so great, why aren't people willing to risk their lives to go to Europe?
Sorry for the rant. If I'm out of line, just delete this post. My Red, White, and Blue are showing.

[Newton]

Someone asks an interesting question about European caliber choices and he gets this:

There are two types of people in the world- Americans and those who wish they were. Thank God I was born in the U.S.A.

An astute comment on the subject of European caliber selection and no mistake :rolleyes:

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

KY Larry,

I think you'll find that Europe, especially Germany, France and England are having problems with the huge influx of immigrants.

I'm not sure how you mean "risking their lives", but after leaving Cuba it's hard to pass up Miami in favor of Normandy.

[Oracle]

I wonder what all the different police departments in the Atlanta area do carry? I know that Walton county still carries 9mm Smiths.

[Mk VII]

there was never much interest in anything different from 9x19. "It's good enough for the army so it must be good enough for us" was the feeling if anyone bothered to consider the question at all.
Most police officers are not gun-oriented and have no more interest in their gun than in the workings of their personal radio - both tools of the job and you need to be able to use them properly, but that's all.

[BigG]

Wunderninetm refers only to those nines that have large capacity AND DA/SA triggers. The S&W Model 59 was first, as Tamara noted.

Also incorrectly known as Wondernine. per Funk & Wagnalls

[Correia]

Why is Europe sticking with 9mm?

Our criminals are tougher. :D

[jc2]

"It's good enough for the army so it must be good enough for us" was the feeling if anyone bothered to consider the question at all.
It's amazing--people believe that way over here about the 1911A1 and the .45 ACP!

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

BigG,

Like I asked earlier, a Glock 17, HK P7M13 and Beretta 92D AREN'T wondernines???

Wonder why.

[Caliburn]

I think AGTman hit it pretty well -- it's not a "free market" for handguns, so the 9 keeps it's monoply position (unless faced with a newcomer from "outside", like the Makarov or Tokarev rounds).

[TheeBadOne]

Spend some time over sea. You'll see that long arms (meaning MP-5's, etc) are much more common. The handgun really is secondary over there. They may wear the pistol, but when going to iffy calls the long gun is in play. Quite a change of pace from this side of the pond.

[BigG]

Self Proclaimed Expert:

The Glock and the Beretta would qualify as wundernines. The P7 is a single action, though high cap so no cigar. The Glock could be argued to be not because it is essentially DA only but I think it qualifies because of the short trigger reset that acts pretty much like an SA.

I think you had to be there because the time is past. Now everything is innovative, modern, high cap, compact, etc. The wundernine craze started with the S&W 59 and everybody copied the concept. S&W had a lot of police contracts and Glock did too. Beretta and HK soon followed. When the S&W 59 appeared, the only common autoloaders were single stack nines except the commercial Browning HP (not often seen), the Colt 45 Auto, and a few war trophy Lugers, P38s, etc.

I think wundernine also has a couple of humorous connotations, as in, "I shot him 12 times, I wonder when he's gonna fall?" or "I wonder if he can hit him, he only has 17 shots."

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

BigG,

You said it had to be DA/SA. A 92D is DAO. A Glock is SafeAction, DAO or SA, depending who you talk to. A P7 is actually more like DA/SA than the other two.

Does a wondernine have to be DA/SA? You just included two guns that aren't.


Other hicaps that aren't DA/SA: VP70, XD, Steyr M, Sig 226 DAO, HK USP LEM, P99 QA, etc.

Not trying to be a pain, but I'm curious where the DA/SA rule came from.

[MJRW]

Don't many European countries have laws forbidding civilians from owning calibers higher than police or military or something? If that is the case, wouldn't going to a .40 or .45 suddenly arm the civilians with reasonable force by allowing 9mm, .357 sig, and so on?

[Climb14er]

Europeans have difficulty with anything more than one single digit, ie: 9mm.

:)

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

MJRW,

Many countries have a no military caliber rule. Bigger is okay, just not the same. The slightly hotter 9x21 is designed to fit in 9mm pistols and is legal in those countries.

[BigG]

I didn't realize the Beretta was DAO. The 92xx is a DA/SA AFAIK; oddball variants would still fit under the umbrella, I guess.

The original term was coined to indicate a pistol that held a box of cartridges :p AND fired its first shot without having to be cocked. The S&W 59 was the archetype.

With that in mind, the HK P7 is a squeeze cocker so I guess the high cap model could also be a wundernine. All different methods of attaining the same goal, self cocking and high capacity.

[Mk VII]

Italy and France certainly have laws restricting so-called 'military calibres', which is why you get M1917 rifles in things like .300 Savage or '.30 Sporting' in France. But most of the others have no such rules.

[SelfProclaimedExpert]

self cocking and high capacity

That does seem more useful.:)

[trooper]

1. Because we always had 9's

2. Because 9mm apparently gets the job done

3. Because of public relations... anything bigger than absolutely necessary is considered ramboish <sigh>

Conclusion: the answer is a mix of most of your responses. However, I can positively assure you that I can count further than 9...

I have to admit that police shootings over here are much more rare than in the US. The average number of officers killed in the line of duty is about 10 per year (in a population of 90 million people and 300,000 cops). Therefore less emphasis is placed on firearms.



Regards,

Trooper

[9x19mm]

What trooper said. And I can count further than 9 too.

Stay Safe :rolleyes:

[PC Load Letter]

To our European High-Roaders. I'd like to apologize for the comments of some of our more insulting American members. Many of them spew pseudo-patriot drivel any chance they can get. They're probably the same kind of people that put american flag bumper stickers on their SUVs and call it patriotic... (sigh).
I, for one, consider the 9mm an aesthetically pleasing caliber, and fun to shoot.

[Akurat]

The better question is - why not?

[trooper]

To our European High-Roaders. I'd like to apologize for the comments of some of our more insulting American members. Many of them spew pseudo-patriot drivel any chance they can get. They're probably the same kind of people that put american flag bumper stickers on their SUVs and call it patriotic... (sigh).

No offense taken... I've been called worse things than a gun-dropping, too-stupid-to-count, European coward. ;)

Not much worse, though.

I think it's almost time for someone to show up with the "relate caliber to dick size" stuff.


Regards,

Trooper

[9x19mm]

:) :) :)

[Sunray]

"... the revolver to wheelgun..." Eh? Never mind. The Europeans use a 9mm pistol because they routinely issue smg's to their beat cops. Smg's are seen as specialist's weapons here. Up here, our cops shouldn't have a pellet gun never mind smg's. They are the absolute most careless firearm handlers anywhere.

[mrapathy2000]

maybe in europe they use 9mm to non fatally injure someone instead of putting them in a pine box.

[trooper]

The Europeans use a 9mm pistol because they routinely issue smg's to their beat cops.

Well... they're not issued as a personal weapon, but we have instant access if we ever need them. We have to qualify every 6 months with them (which is a lot of fun ;) ).

BTW did anyone bother to think that most SMGs also shoot 9mm x 19 ??


Regards,

Trooper

[wunderkind]

Actually, the 9mm may represent a serious upgrade for some European agencies. If I'm not mistaken, it wasn't unheard of for street cops to carry .32 or .380 or 9mm 'police' in that part of the world.

The 9mm parabellum is probably quite impressive compared to some of their former rounds. I can't imagine going to a barricaded subject w/possible hostage armed with a .32 on my hip (unless there was an MP5 in the trunk!)

Besides, the 9mm in a modern, potent bullet design with primers/poweders designed to maximize efficiency out of a prescribed barrel length will most likely ruin a bad guy's day. The ammo companies have 'come a long way,baby.' My G17's published muzzle energy is above that of my father's USP .45 compact. (I'm just noting an engineering accomplishment-I love 9mm, .38, and .45 equally!)

Maybe the drug-crazed PCP maniac who won't go down to anything but a .308 is an American phenomenom? Maybe they haven't had to deal with that type of fail-to-stop as much overseas?

[Mk VII]

actual officer-related shootings are so few in this country that few conclusions can be drawn from them. Exchanges of gunfire are even rarer.

[Griff]

Haven't seen much of a gun culture here. They seem to be more concerned with putting flowers in gun barrels than bullets around these parts (Heidleberg)
Try asking one of those infamous American Soccor Moms the same question and you'll get about the same results.

[cz75man]

I am an American, and reading some of the drivel in this post makes me cringe. The 9mm is a very popular cartridge in the US, and for good reason, it works. I am a prosecutor in a jurisdiction that has a large amount of shootings by police officers. Our officers carry semi-autos chambered in 9mm. I review all officer-involved shootings and I have no doubt that the 9mm works extremely well. Our officers feel the same. Unfortunately, in this country, like many others, we have some very egotistical "big mouths" who drone on and on how the 45 is all that and a bag of chips. Just ain't so people. Before our officers adopted the 9mm, they were issued the 45, and we had disturbing number of failures to stop with it. I'm talking multiple round failures to stop. I invite some of our resident 45 lovers to tell our cops how the 9mm sucks and the 45 is it. They would laugh you right out of the county! Some folks equate the caliber of what they carry on their hips to equal to what they have between their legs. How very pathetic.

[cslinger]

maybe in europe they use 9mm to non fatally injure someone instead of putting them in a pine box

Uhhh, now I am a .45 guy at heart but if you don't think 9x19mm will put you in a pine box mighty fast you are quite simply ignoring 100 years of history. There be a lot of people in a lot of pine boxes shot with that inadequate european round.

Chris

[CWL]

cz75man,

Before our officers adopted the 9mm, they were issued the 45, and we had disturbing number of failures to stop with it.

now correct me if I'm wrong, since you're a prosecutor and all that, but I seem to recall that most police agencies in the USA issued revolvers firing .38special as the main duty firearm. .45ACP, .44special, .357 magnum, and 9mm were a tiny minority until the largescale conversion to 9mm in the 1980-1990s. What county do you work in?

[cz75man]

"most police agencies in the USA issued revolvers firing .38special as the main duty firearm. .45ACP, .44special, .357 magnum, and 9mm were a tiny minority until the largescale conversion to 9mm in the 1980-1990s"

I don't know what most police agencies in the USA do, I just know the ones in my jurisdiction. Our Sheriff and the major metro police dept. in the county both adopted the .45 Auto in the early 1980's. The load was a very well regarding hollow point at the time, I don't remember which, I think it was either a 200gr or 230gr hollow point. The results were terrible. As I said before, many multiple round failures to stop, and these were with good solid torso hits. Around 1990 or so 9mms were adopted. The Winchester 115gr +p+ round was used. Results were excellent. Since that time, the Winchester 127gr +p+ round has been adopted, results continue to be excellent. My jurisdiction is +/- 1,000,000. Law enforcement in my area thinks the 45 Auto is crap.

[agtman]

"***you are quite simply ignoring 100 years of history. There be a lot of people in a lot of pine boxes shot with that inadequate european [9mm] round."


Well, I guess if that "history" includes all the POWs, military deserters, Eastern European political dissidents, victims of genocide (and, more recently, "ethnic cleansing"), and anyone else shot from behind while staring into a ditch, you'd have a fairly large number. :scrutiny:

Heck, if you just could nail it down to a specific number, it might even boost the 9mm's "one-shot-stop" rating. :rolleyes:

[Glock_17]

Sometimes I just can't understand how simple questions can degenerate into bickering so fast.

[ThePerfectOne]

being a genuine European (in fact I live in the heart of Europe: Belgium :D ) I should say a few words on this topic.

first of all: our police forces here in Belgium never encountered problems with their 9mm's. our 9mm bullets are loaded to +P levels, so they generate more power than a .45ACP, believe it or not.

we never had the "Miami-shooting incident", and our crime figures are very low (at least when compared to the great US of A :scrutiny: ). there is absolutely no reason to drop the 9mm for a .40 or .45.

if you firmly believe that the 9mm was intended to stop rather than to kill, you better start believing somthing else. in fact, the one-shot/one stop % of the 9mm is about as high as that of the .45ACP (62.2% vs 62.8%), at least in FMJ.

[Tommy Gunn]

I wonder how many European police forces are still using the 7.65mm (.32acp) pistol round.

[Marko Kloos]

Actually, the 9mm may represent a serious upgrade for some European agencies. If I'm not mistaken, it wasn't unheard of for street cops to carry .32 or .380 or 9mm 'police' in that part of the world.

Hey, look up the S&W Regulation Police, or Colt Police Positive. Those things weren't exactly chambered in bear-killer calibers, and they were regulation issue for American beat cops at one point. (The hides of crooks must have gotten thicker lately.)

Until the late 1970s, the vast majority of U.S. law enforcers was armed with S&W or Colt wheelguns loaded with .38 Specials. They changed to 9mm and other calibers around the same time when many European agencies abandoned the .32 and .380 for the 9mm. Prior to the Wondernine age (and the international terrorism of the 1970s), neither American nor European cops were routinely armed with anything that would constitute "optimal defense caliber choice" among many members here.

[44]

It may have to do with Europe's terrible experience in WW2. More people there than here have a high aversion to violence. For example, consider that Europeans who were most affected by WW2 might hate the idea of defensive shotgun, while we absolutely relish it. If that's true, it could extend to handgun calibers.

[Majic]

The Europeans may actually believe in the phrase "If it Ain't Broke, Why Fix It". Sounds plausible to me.

[KRAUTGUNNER]

@ PC Load Letter:

No I'm really not offended by some of the more patriotic postings in this thread! ;) :D

At least WE §$&%ing Krauts can legally own high-capacity mags for our wondernines and other firearms. A 20-round magazin for my Beretta 92? NO problem. :cool: :D

And since April 2003 we can also buy the most "evil" super expanding hollowpoint bullets.

We've got all the firepower and all the stopping power we desire.

In 9mm Luger, .40 S&W or .45ACP.

:neener:

[jercamp45]

Boy this is an interesting thread!!
I am not personally a great fan of the 9mm, but I have no doubt it WILL indeed kill someone and I am NOT willing to stand up and be part of the 'better caliber' experiment. I saw a failure to stop with the Nine, but that does not mean it is worthless at all.
Europe has not had the same experiences in Law Enforcement that we have. There is less criminal violence there(though that seems to be changing), but they have dealt with the terrorist threat alot longer than us.
We got to deal with Injuns, wolves, those pesky Redcoats, bears, tommygun packing bottlegger's, PCP, Crack and welfare fed, pumping iron prisoner types through out our history. Similar perhaps to some of the British Empire building where the .455 Webley was King.
Cannot say things have calmed down alot, can say the gun and ammo have improved considerable. From 32's in Europe and 38's here to something more substantial in both cases.
There is lot of validity in the claim of the 9 being Primary in Europe because is has been around so long, it is what they are used to, it seems to work most of the time(NOTHING is 100% not even America's favorite 12 gauge trombone), there is compatability between the handguns and the subguns the Police over there get to pack as necessary(lucky them!), and the fact they have so few Officer involved shooting compared to the Wild West environment of the New World.
More civilized? Ummm, WWI, WWII did not show anymore civilized behavior than our own ethnic cleansing program with the American Indian.
Yes, they have mandates and restrictions...so do we. We have a more gun oriented culture for sure!! And have a fascination with 'bigger is better' from our cars, to our buildings, aircraft carriers, guns, breast size on our ladies, and the Harley hawgs bellowing down the road. We American's are Excessive! Always looking for new and improved.
I carry a pistol every day, and I carry a .45 auto because I think it is the best. But if I were suddenly faced with having to pack a Nine for some weird reason, I would not consider myself inadequately armed(though undoubtedly I would complain abit)...with a good hollow point, Nine will do if I do.
It is not the size of the bore(or muscle) but how you employ it. The man, not the machine.
There are differences in American's and Europeans...OK, but people is people. And the Flag waver's need to understand that we have our weaknesses too, that cannot be compensated for by the size of our machines/tools.
That exercise in a modicum of decorum out of the way, I can say...
At least we are not French!!(but they can buy suppressors there!)
Jercamp45

[MessedUpMike]

At least WE §$&%ing Krauts can legally own high-capacity mags for our wondernines and other firearms. A 20-round magazin for my Beretta 92? NO problem

Ouch!!!

[wanderinwalker]

Why not use the 9mm? It has done, and will do nicely. Might I add that I love shooting my Glocks. :D

But can I ask the European-members here, how often do you use a handgun for the hunting of game animals over there in Europe? Or carry one through the woods for peace-of-mind? (Notice I did not say defense of self from animals, which isn't a common occurence.) I honestly feel that this might have something to do with American bigger-is-better-ism. Anybody?

[KRAUTGUNNER]

@ wanderinwalker:

Handgun-hunting is illegal in Germany and in a lot of European Counties.

Some hunters carry a handgun to finish off a wounded game aminal at short distances. Mostly 9mm Luger autoloaders or .357 Mag snubbies.

[wanderinwalker]

KRAUTGUNNER,

Thanks for the response. With that in mind, are guns like the .44 Magnum, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, etc. even heard of? I'm thinking most likely not, or not very common at all, but I've been surprised before. Here in New Hampshire, I personally know of 3 or 4 hunters who use handguns extensively, especially in the thick brush so common where the pavement ends.

I once surprised a German guest when he learned that I was free to ride a dirt bike without adult supervision, on public land, at the age of 15. And the fact that I didn't have a displacement restriction on my permit/license. :)

[KRAUTGUNNER]

@ wanderingwalker:

Yes, firearms with heavy calibers like .44 Mag, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .500 Linebaugh, etc. are legal in Germany.

But NOT for hunting game!

Most of the owners of those heavy handguns are target shooters (like myself; I've got a S&W 629 Classic DX with 8 3/8" barrel :D ) or collectors.

Of course, most target shooters in Germany prefer "decent" calibers like .32 S&W long, .38 Special, 9mm Luger or .45 ACP.

We "heavy-metal" fans are looked upon with considerable suspicion and sometimes disgust, but we can surely live with the prejudices of the politically correct, plain and conformist "hole-puncher" shooters. :evil:

Those poor guys regard target shooting as a deadly serious matter and anybody having FUN with informal recreational shooting and plinking is regarded as some sort of leper or pariah. :banghead: :barf: