A gripe on gun shops


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woof
May 1, 2008, 08:55 AM
I'd hate to see gunshops go the way of family owned TV stores with everything being done through the mail. But I have just completed a search for a certain rifle and after calling about a dozen area shops, I'm about ready to write them off. Time after time I would ask - do you have this in stock? No. Will you be getting any in? I don't know I don't think so. Can you order them? I guess so I don't know, you'd have to come in. To me that simply says - we don't want your business, stop bothering us.

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Ragnar Danneskjold
May 1, 2008, 08:58 AM
Gun shop owners/employees are strange types. Most other business owners and employees try to be salesmen at some level; gain customers, sell things, turn a profit. Gun shops don't seem to work that way. I'm not quite sure why.

JohnBT
May 1, 2008, 09:00 AM
I've always had better luck going to the store and talking to the employee or owner who actually does the ordering. The hourly counter help isn't usually involved in special orders and doesn't know much if anything about it.

John

Vonderek
May 1, 2008, 09:27 AM
I just went to a local shop because online they were listed as a Dan Wesson retailer and I am interested in a Bobtail Commander. The guy in the shop was condescending and clueless..."why would you want that?...they're terrible!..they're no longer in business..etc etc." Turns out he didn't even know what a Bobtail Commander was and that Dan Wesson was in business and owned by CZ-USA. Unfortunately, this type of attitude seems to be the norm and not the exception around here. That's why I always have to laugh when I read posts decrying the demise of "Mom & Pop" stores.

AirForceShooter
May 1, 2008, 09:36 AM
Gun shops tend to be "throw backs" to the 19th century.
If they don't have it in stock they don't seem to care.
You want to use a credit card? There's an additional charge for that.

You want something they don't carry, it's a piece of junk you shouldn't buy.

You want service? You're kidding right?

You want a warranty? Are you nuts?

If you ever find a good shop buy everything you need there even if it costs more.

My little rant.

AFS

saddlebum
May 1, 2008, 09:45 AM
ya i wish they would all go out of business then then the world would be a better place

brockgl
May 1, 2008, 09:48 AM
Glad to hear others have had this same experience. There are two shops near me here in Indiana, and there was one I frequented in South Carolina. And all three are exactly like the OP has described. They charge extra for credit card purchases; they don't act like they give a rip if you buy from them or not; they don't know what they can or cannot order, etc... I worked retail for over 7 years and we were working with a lot lower profit margins to boot. We tried HARD to get a customer's sale, whether it required a special order, transferring from a different location, working with the price to secure the sale, etc... Do gun store owners act like this because they have a special license to sell guns and there is not as much online competition when it actually comes to firearm purchases? I have always wondered why they all act this way.

Flame Red
May 1, 2008, 10:23 AM
Hmmm - around here in Central Florida it is a bit different. Most will go out of their way to order what you want, even by phone. But they all seem to use a certain set (of different) distributors. So if the distributer they happen to use don't have it, they won't check any others. Still, they may get in in a few days or a few months, one is never sure and you cannot go by what they claim.

The thing that pisses me off here is that most of them around here won't do transfers anymore, or if they do, they won't transfer anything they they can potentially order (wiether they can get it or not) and they charge you $50-$100 for the privilege and give you the third degree for free!

Pilgrim
May 1, 2008, 10:43 AM
If a shop doesn't stock what you want, it probably doesn't think its customers will buy it. Shop owners sure hate 'Counter Queens' that take up space and tie up money.

I've found that offering to put money down to at least cover the cost of shipping and restocking fees will get a shop owner interested in ordering what you want.

Pilgrim

siglite
May 1, 2008, 10:44 AM
It's a mixed bag around here. My plan for dealing with it is to be repeat business. I'll start by buying ammo and components from a shop on a pretty regular basis. It lets me get a feel for them, and them to start learning my face and name. Lots of times, you can find out just what kind of gun store you're in by going in, perusing their stock, and making smaller purchases.

Then they get to know you. And once they know you, and know your money's green, and you actually spend it, well, you tend to find that the service gets better. Currently, I do the major bulk of my local business with three shops. At two of them, every employee knows my name, and at one, they all know my face. And they know I spend a lot of money on gun stuff. And if I want to order something they don't have, they crack open the catalogs right in front of me and we go through them together until we find what I want.

I've found that gun shops are odd, in that the loyalty has to be built bi-directionally. Customer loyalty breeds shop loyalty. In many shops, the disparity between the treatment of the anonymous browser versus the regular customer seems to be much wider than other industries.

And you know what? I'm absolutely fine with this arrangement. Because I get to feel a shop out, and they get to feel me out over time. And what happens is, in the end, the guys that will take care of you get the business.

Neo-Luddite
May 1, 2008, 10:58 AM
Do your shopping online--find what you want--use the shop for the transer if they will do it for a fee you will pay.

Some gunshops are run like clubhouses.

Pat-inCO
May 1, 2008, 11:02 AM
To me that simply says - we don't want your business, stop bothering us.
On the contrary. It says you are talking with one of the flunkies that really don't know the product lines.

You might also try the tact: "I want a (enter name of super whiz bang projectile emitting object here). When can you have one for me?" If you get the same reply as you did, then they probably don't want your business.

Time after time I would ask - do you have this in stock? No. Will you be getting any in? I don't know I don't think so.
Is that item a brand they normally carry? NO business that wishes to stay in business will suddenly start carrying manufacturer X products for just one request.

blkbrd666
May 1, 2008, 11:50 AM
I go to a lot of gun shops and I have noticed that they are the MOST likely retail stores to have a-hole behind the counter. They are not all that way, just a big percentage. When you do find a helpful and friendly person behind the counter, they are usually a complete 180 degrees and make you actually feel good about spending a good chunk of change. Some of them you just have to wonder about...do they really hate themselves so bad that every day of life is the pits? I have gotten back in my car and gone home or to another shop many times for no reason other than the person I had to deal with...it's already a jolt to lay down $500+ every time I visit to the glass counter...I don't need attitude, depression, or self-righteousness behind it. I can usually tell when I walk in the door...if the person smiles and speaks/greets, it's usually a nice place. If I walk in and they just look at you, like a cop at a criminal, I usually just leave and go spend somewhere else.

Kindrox
May 1, 2008, 12:45 PM
And once they know you, and know your money's green

At my wife's store (retail but not gun related) it is assumed that the money of every person who walks in the door is colored green, and it is presumed that we and our employees will give execellent customer service to every person who walks in the door, even if we don't know you.

It is odd to me that we do give such great service and our business seems a struggle compared to many other businesses that treat customers like crap.

woof
May 1, 2008, 12:57 PM
Some gunshops are run like clubhouses - I think that pretty much nails it!

Soybomb
May 1, 2008, 01:06 PM
www.budsgunshop.com

Do your own reseach, buy online, find a pawnshop in your area that will be more than happy to take $20-30 to do the paperwork.

hankdatank1362
May 1, 2008, 01:08 PM
There's this new guy at the only local gun store in town. He's an older guy, but one of these days I might snap on him. I've dealt with him three times, on three seperate purchases... two holsters, a couple magazines, and I think some speed strips IIRC.

Every time I say "OK I'll take it" he gives me this funny look and asks if I'm law enforcement. He doesn't say it in a manner that would lead me to believe he thinks that I am law enforcement and is trying to offer me their LE/MIL discount. More of a tone like "Why would you need this product if you're not a cop?"

Every time he asks me this. I reckon he's forgetful. I got kinda snide last time he asked me when I bought an ankle holster. Next time, I might have to make a scene. That really irks me.

Hokkmike
May 1, 2008, 01:08 PM
Thye probably get many people who "want a gun" or "will be back". Try telling them that you will put a sizeable deposit down on a gun you want ordered and see what happens.

J Star
May 1, 2008, 01:19 PM
Gun stores are like every other store. They are all run by people. Some people care, and can fake a smile even when they don't feel it, other people have the social skills of a retarded monkey.

Keep in mind that even some stores that are run by great people can have off days, or be prejudiced towards certain people.

My FFL dealer has been in business for 20+ years, and is sick to death of teenagers coming in and asking for full auto-weapons, or "can you sell this for $100 less, it's all I got?", etc... But when I walked in and told him I was looking for something in 7.62x39, he was more than happy to answer my questions and he ended up flipping through his distributors catalogs with me until I found something I liked. Hell, he recognized me at a gun show and was shaking my hand before I even remembered who he was! :D

Claude Clay
May 1, 2008, 01:27 PM
the shop people knowing you well is a good thing ( assuming they think well of you ). you knowing their schedule & not calling or stopping in during their busy times is important also. i stop in once a week...ask them to hold something for later pick up. they usually phone answer to questions in a couple of days if they have to call around themselves & they know who to call!
of all retail & service categories, the gun people are the best...hands down. and that includes all i have meet & traded with on the internet--+1 the high road members
ya, every store has a somebody not quite with it person....so avoid them. kiss

Ash
May 1, 2008, 01:30 PM
Big Buck Sports in Hattiesburg, MS, told me they don't stock Savage rifles because they are poor quality (and did so with something almost to the level of a sneer). Yet they did stock the Remington 710.

I shrugged and left. Now with Gander Mountain in town, I see no reason at all to go to Big Buck.

Ash

frogomatic
May 1, 2008, 01:53 PM
There is good and bad on both sides of the counter.

hddeluxe
May 1, 2008, 02:04 PM
I find that the more the people behind the counter know you the better the service will be. Don't have an explaination for this, but it is what I have encountered. Doesn't seem to matter if it is a large store (Cabella's) or a mom and pop place.

scrat
May 1, 2008, 02:14 PM
i try to support my local gun shops as much as i can. i have had the same problem though. i will go in and ask them for a part or something. i get the same answer sorry we dont carry it. So i ask them can you get it. They check. then its a hit or miss. sometimes they can and sometimes they cant. Gets rather frustrating. I know if i dont support the gun shop some day it may not be there. Same time though the guys behind the counter seem to think when they say they dont have it. The conversation should stop, They look at me like im 10 years old. When im thinking they should have said. I dont have it but im sure i can get it. So by the end of the conversation when i make them look for it. Then they say they can get it i always congratulate them for making a sale rather than letting me end the conversation. Its happened so much that when i go to a certain person. He always knows to go look in his computer and find it.

rainbowbob
May 1, 2008, 02:32 PM
I have also had the same kinds of mixed bag gun store experiences.

The first place I frequented was a clubhouse run by the owner for the apparent purpose of giving him a forum from which to wax elequent about whatever was on his mind. You could stand there forever waiting for him to finish his diatribe about one thing or another while several regulars nodded their heads in agreement.

I needed a part for a .22 rifle that required delivery to an FFL. I identified and provided him with the part number, order address, phone number, etc. He made a phone call using all the info I provided him and charged me double ($100 for a $50 part). When it arrived he nearly broke it trying to show me how to install it (completely wrong as it turned out). I finally got out of there, read the manual, and installed it myself correctly. Nice enough guy...but jeez!

This weekend I was looking for sillouette targets for our "First Annual Charleton Heston Snub-Fest and Shoot-a-Thon".

The first shop was closed on Sat morning.

The next place I went didn't have anything but little bulls-eyes.

The third shop had a very old owner behind the counter in the middle of a very long-winded dissertation about an army experience with dysentary - with all the details. His other customer - obviously a regular (pun intended) that had heard this story didn't seem too interested. Without missing a beat, the owner transfered his attention and the story to me. I found myself nodding politely until I could interject a request for sillouette targets. He looked at me like I was nuts and told me he doesn't carry them because they aren't "politically correct". Surprised by that answer, I said I didn't think that "political correctness" would be a problem in a gun shop. He replied that you can't use them anywhere (?!) at any of the ranges. I told him they sell them at every indoor gun range I've been to. Unfortunately, those ranges were to far away for my purpose that morning.

The last place had three guys behind the counter interested in selling stuff. They had sillouettes. And when I asked if they had any discounted outdoor (e.g., lead) .38 special - they had a shelf full of partial boxes and other assorted odds and ends for about 30% less than the regular stuff. Score!

I guess the answer is - as with any business - find one you like and spend your money there so they can stay in business.

possom813
May 1, 2008, 03:22 PM
We've only got one local gun shop, family run. We've got a Gander Mtn, so the local shop is a better deal usually. The owner is also the gunsmith, and in all honesty, he's one of the few people I wouldn't hesitate to let touch any of my guns.

The only gripe I have about him is that he's a die hard Hi Point hater. I asked him a while back if he'd order one of the 9mm carbines for me. He first gave me the "You need a Beretta Storm" speech. Then when he figured out there was no way I was paying 600 for a plinker he told me he'd order the Hi Point but wouldn't stand behind it.

I got aggravated at him for a little while, but after a visit to Gander, he and I are in each other's good graces again.

-John

LeonCarr
May 1, 2008, 05:40 PM
When I go into a gun shop, my rule is this. If they treat me fairly, I will give them more business than they can stand, and tell everyone I know. If they mess me over or feed me a bunch of malarky, I will never visit their shop again, and tell everyone I know.

Word of mouth (or in this case word of internet) is still the best advertising, good or bad.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

brighamr
May 1, 2008, 06:25 PM
woof - I agree, the majority of gun stores don't have quite the customer service others stores do. However, when you find a good gun store, you're life will be forever changed.

I refuse to buy online now, after all the hassles i've been through. My local shop will order anything i want from guns to reloading supplies, etc. It took a lot of time to find a good shop, but now they're getting 100% of my business.

McCall911
May 1, 2008, 06:32 PM
When I go into a gun shop, my rule is this. If they treat me fairly, I will give them more business then they can stand, and tell everyone I know. If they mess me over or feed me a bunch of malarky, I will never visit their shop again, and tell everyone I know.

Word of mouth (or in this case word of internet) is still the best advertising, good or bad.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr


Leon, you must be my long-lost twin brother because you've described my own policy to a T. I was just going to post more or less the same thing in answer to another post.

230RN
May 1, 2008, 07:25 PM
PatinCO said,

I've found that gun shops are odd, in that the loyalty has to be built bi-directionally. Customer loyalty breeds shop loyalty.

Should be the other way around.

Period.

I get a mixed bag in re shop owners also. Some seem to be good ole boy clubs, as someone pointed out. Well, I don't want to be one of the good ole boys. I just want to be treated like a customer.

I could really rant on one shop around here in particular, but general courtliness made me decide I wouldn't say anything specific about it. I wanted to buy a laser for my 1911 and started seriously looking for a basic simple AR-15 just to get my feet wet on black rifles. So that retailer will miss out on what, maybe $1300 - $1400 I will spend, not including accessories and upgrades in the longer run.

If I were more vindictive than I am, I would mail him copies of my future gun purchase receipts with a blow-off note on each one.

But.

I'm not that vindictive.

I'm going to visit Green Mountain Guns Saturday with many green dollars in my pocket. They were very nice and very helpful on the phone with me the other day.

siglite
May 1, 2008, 07:36 PM
Should be the other way around.

Of course it *should* be the other way around. However, you're disregarding my observation that it often is not.

Another observation I've found, is that the smiley-face "everyone's our friends" shops tend to be overpriced badly. And the shops that get to know you as you get to know them tend to give you pretty good deals. Dealing with the gruff ole guy that just takes your orders without much to say is worth saving a couple of hundred bucks on a purchase to me. Of course, the big-box outdoor store around here will happily smile while bending me over the counter.

Coulda/shoulda/woulda is nice and all, but I'm just relaying my personal observations.

peacenik
May 1, 2008, 07:46 PM
... in my hometown (I'm in SC) there's one store that's committed to selling firearms as it's principal business. The guys in there aren't exactly looking to win any congeniality contests, but if they think you're going to buy something, or just want to see a gun, they're very honest and helpful. They also run the only shooting range in the city, and when I go in there, I naturally check out what they have behind the glass, since guns are like beautiful women - if they're around, what the h*** else are you going to look at?

Today I was in there, and a woman was buying a gun, talking about how her ex was stalking her, and she already had a restraining order on him. She was concerned. I've seen gang-banger types in there trying to buy guns, only to get 'delays' on the background checks. I've heard a lot of talk about the upcoming election. Although the vast majority I see in there are just normal people, many with their kids just looking to use the range, I imagine the guys who work there see a lot more marginal or troubling cases than the ones I've witnessed. I imagine it makes you a little suspicious, skeptical or maybe even paranoid. That, and the 'tire-kickers' like me who want to just look before they shoot at the range (although I did recently buy a weapon from them), and the fact that there's gunfire constantly in the background, might give you a little edge.

My guess is that if any one of us was in the same profession, we might take on the same habits.

Rotty
May 1, 2008, 08:16 PM
All I hae to say is I'm now in my 4th year of business as a FFL and side gunsmith, customer serice is the most important thing to me, thats one reason I started my business, I was tired of being and seeing other people getting ripped off or treated poorly, we all make mistakes as we learn anything, I've made my fair share, but I do my best and I really dont have any unhappy customers that I'm aware of, and seeing as I'm in a small area, I'm pretty sure I would know if I did. My business continues to grow, I invest as much if not more into my business each year as I sell out (thus posting loss the last three years) my biggest issue is money, I also work a full time job and have a family, I cant stock 20-30 guns...I mainly do special order, but do have some inventory, my ideal customer is someone that will come in and say "I want _____ please get it for me....." Someone that knows his/her stuff in other words.

Ash
May 1, 2008, 09:22 PM
The world needs more of you!

Ash

eastwood44mag
May 2, 2008, 12:29 AM
J Star nailed it.

People who have never worked in retail don't know just how much of a horse's arse customers can be.

If you don't like the shop, either find a new one, or open your own, but don't expect to walk into another man's business and tell him how to run it. That's just asking for bad service.

230RN
May 2, 2008, 02:14 AM
People who have never worked in retail don't know just how much of a horse's arse customers can be.

If you don't like the shop, either find a new one, or open your own, but don't expect to walk into another man's business and tell him how to run it. That's just asking for bad service.

I got my retail training behind the gun counter of a large department store in about 1970. Since then, whenever my regular business was slack, or I was between assignments. I've worked retail on and off. I even owned my own store. (Got tired of working 70 hours a week, so sold it.)

The only "horse's arse" I ever had to 86 was a guy who would come in, finger all the merchandise (small electronic parts in bins) and just had the look and actions of a klepto --looking to see if I was watching, etc. He never bought a thing. I don't know if he was baiting me for fun and games or actually stealing, or what, and I could not catch him slipping a part into his pocket. I finally just got tired of wasting my time watching him and asked him to leave and not come back.

All other folks who came in were treated as I would have liked to have been treated, and as a result I had techs and engineers from Denver and Boulder come all the way out to my shop instead of buying at a large shop downtown. Customers and I would have bull sessions, but as soon as a customer came in, I'd excuse myself from the group and go help that customer and make him or her feel welcome, and would usually introduce him/her all around.

And point out the coffeepot.

Welcome, you understand?

Unlike some of the small gun shops I've frequented, where you could almost feel the "who the heck are you and what the heck do you want" attitude the very first time you walk in the door.

Must be a difference in training. I guess a lot of gun shop owners are just not properly trained in retail, and seem to think you just buy stock, try to sell it at a profit, and whoop-de-doo.

But there's more to retail than that.

Much more.

And if you don't think that jerky gun shops are a problem, this must be about the tenth thread I've seen on this issue in the past two years.

That should tell you gun shop owners something!

I say again:


That should tell you gun shop owners something!

Kitchen_Duty
May 2, 2008, 02:32 AM
I think my biggest quirk about gun shops is "you don't want this, you want that."

Sportsman warehouse: "Hi, my name is Kitchen, I want to buy a ruger super redhawk 454 casull"

Behind the counter man: "you want a smith and wesson 460 for $200 more" :what:???? he continues, "it shoots 45 colt, 454 and 460!"
me: "But, I already have brass, bullets, primer, and powder for 454 and I do not need any extra power from the 460 (it's "minimal" anyway) and the gas blow by on the cylinder might damage my gun over time"
counter: "no it won't, you NEED this." - funny how I have only bought a ruger 10/22 at that Sportsman's Warehouse.

or the most recent at a gunshop in Seattle: "Wow, maverick 88's for cheap, these use mossberg barrels right?"

Really scary guy behind counter: "no, none of the parts are interchangeable"
me: "oh, I thought they were, well except the forends. but since they are not I don't want to buy one" - come to find out I was right, just the FORENDS are not interchangeable. So i went to Big 5 and bought a mossberg 500 with two barrels for $10 more.

M47 Dragon
May 2, 2008, 02:45 AM
It's funny... people like to make fun of the state of guns in California. In Los Angeles, things can be particularly stifling when it comes to what you can and can't buy.

Anyway, the one thing I have never had at my local gun shop is a bad experience. The staff is friendly and they know their stuff. I am on a first name basis with the counter staff as well as management. If they don't carry it in stock, they will order it (CA legal of course) and I've never heard anything but objective opinions come from them as far as gun choices.

Maybe I'm lucky - or this store is just a little more concerned with keeping the customers coming back. I will still order from Bud's if I find a better price, but after FFL fees, that is rarely the case anymore.

cowssurf
May 2, 2008, 02:58 AM
"Try telling them that you will put a sizeable deposit down on a gun you want ordered and see what happens."

Why should that even be up to the customer to initiate? Why wouldn't the gun shop employee say, "We can order that for you, but we'll need a deposit on the gun." Isn't that what somebody who wants to make money would say?

"In many shops, the disparity between the treatment of the anonymous browser versus the regular customer seems to be much wider than other industries. And you know what? I'm absolutely fine with this arrangement. Because I get to feel a shop out, and they get to feel me out over time."

I personally hate that arrangement. I just moved to Utah recently. Does that mean I have to do my due diligence with each gun shop before I buy a gun? That is a stupid way to run a business. They make money, but not a lot. That's why their store space is in some junk location and the hired help is some local riff raff. And they'll never get out of their little middling retail hell. I can't stand arrogant and ignorant gun shop employees. It's like they're not even human. They've never been in a social situation where they've actually had to interact with another human being in a way that might make the other human want to interact with them again some time.

Cave Dweller
May 2, 2008, 03:23 AM
We should all expect pleasant, smiling, friendly service from our "merchants of death":evil:

coylh
May 2, 2008, 03:45 AM
I love gun stores.

saturno_v
May 2, 2008, 04:56 AM
My experience with gunshops here around is Seattle is mixed.
Very few are staffed with people very friendly and helpful, others so so and some of them have no idea what customer service is.

Unfortunately the excessive gun regulations keep the big chains away from "all inclusive" gun business (rifles, handguns, accessories).

If some nation-wide stores would emerge like any other sectors, with excellent customer service, generous return policy, no credit card surcharges, etc, they would wipe out the small grumpy-staffed stores within one year.

By the way I noticed that even gunsmiths often are not very friendly and I refused to do business with 2 of them (one in particular a REAL A**hole)because of that.

Lastly, going to gun shows and hanging around gun shops I noticed that quite few people that "are into guns" around here are unfriendly, grumpy and weird....some are real creeps....this is one of the aspects that I really dislike in this hobby....at some gun shows, we "ordinary" folks we can literally spot each other and wave each other :D:D:D

lanternlad1
May 2, 2008, 05:04 AM
A friend of mine sells cigars. Good cigars. Not the best on the market, not anywhere close. But people come from miles around to buy cigars from him because he treats each and every customer like they are the only person in the world. They come in, he introduces himself, asks what they like, gives them a little sales spiel, and in five minutes you feel like you've known him forever. He remembers customer's names, what they like to smoke, who their favorite team is, their favorite drink. The whole nine yards. If they want something he doesn't carry, he says "We don't have that - but this is just as good..." then gives them the substitute for free for them to try. (I wish you could do that with guns.) When a customer buys, he offers them a drink (Scotch, Vodka etc - free) and invites them to sit down and relax, have drink and a smoke and watch tv or chat.

I've often wondered why gun shops don't cater to customers this way. (I realize some things aren't do-able with guns that are do-able with cigars, but if I sold guns in a shop I'd offer a buyer a free Scotch. Why the hell not? He/She Just spent a few hundred bucks.) I've seen gun shop owners cheat buyer/sellers and then laugh about it as soon as the customer/pigeon left. It sickens me, really. I always try to give my customers more than they expect (I'm a graphic designer) and I think mom and pop gun shop owners should do the same. If I want to be treated like a number, I'll buy my guns from a retail syndicate. Funny thing is, I often feel more welcome at Gander Mtn than I do at Carter's Country.

Nematocyst
May 2, 2008, 05:50 AM
After being flagrantly dissed
in a local gun shop a year ago,
I walked out, and will never return.

I've almost got all the guns I need/want.

For others, I'll go elsewhere.

LR1
May 2, 2008, 05:56 AM
Here in Australia everybody is against us. Yes the whole population so its in the best intrest of the gun shops to be nice.

Nematocyst
May 2, 2008, 06:01 AM
Welcome to the house, LR1.

Gunshop owners here would do well
to visit your country/continent.

You should offer workshops for them.

I'd set the price at $3K, meals extra.

Bring them down two full notches,
then send them back w/ humility.

LR1
May 2, 2008, 06:07 AM
Yes we still are going through the fall out from Martin Bryant and the sad loss down in Tasmaina. Even though it happened over 15years ago the goverment did the most amazing scare show ever seen here. overnight we went from autos to very restricted ownership of bolts.

DnPRK
May 2, 2008, 06:40 AM
It's funny... people like to make fun of the state of guns in California. In Los Angeles, things can be particularly stifling when it comes to what you can and can't buy.

Anyway, the one thing I have never had at my local gun shop is a bad experience. The staff is friendly and they know their stuff. I am on a first name basis with the counter staff as well as management. If they don't carry it in stock, they will order it (CA legal of course) and I've never heard anything but objective opinions come from them as far as gun choices.

Maybe I'm lucky - or this store is just a little more concerned with keeping the customers coming back. I will still order from Bud's if I find a better price, but after FFL fees, that is rarely the case anymore.
M47 Dragon, What's the name/location of that store? I'd like to give it a try.

siglite
May 2, 2008, 11:33 AM
230RN, I wish you ran a gun shop in my area. You'd probably get all my business.

There was one here a while back that was great, and ran Just Like That. I effectively LIVED in that place. I spent money there too. But for some reason or other, they closed up their bricks and mortar place and moved to online only. They never were very high volume. Which is something I really didn't understand.

Why DID a shop with the utopian customer experience you relay (and competitive pricing) have to shut down, and the guys 10 miles away who look at every customer as if they're an ignorant clueon and have outrageous pricing stay in business? There is something screwy about the firearms market and customer experience.

mgregg85
May 2, 2008, 11:41 AM
I like my local gun shop, the guy behind the counter is gruff but he knows a hell of a lot and is happy to help or answer any questions.

M47 Dragon
May 2, 2008, 11:42 AM
M47 Dragon, What's the name/location of that store? I'd like to give it a try.

Turner's Outdoorsman in Reseda. I can't speak for their other stores around Southern California, but the one in Reseda has always been good to me. Unfortunately, one of their great gun counter guys recently passed away. :(
The remaining staff is good, though.

rainbowbob
May 2, 2008, 01:41 PM
Warning: thread-drift

When a customer buys, he offers them a drink (Scotch, Vodka etc - free) and invites them to sit down and relax, have drink and a smoke and watch tv or chat.

Lanternlad:
Man...where is this slice of heaven? In my (nanny) state, they have pretty much driven the old-style cigar shops out of business with the no-smoking laws. We too had shops where you could sample and smoke...but no more. The only ones left sell crap cigars, poorly stored, along with the dope pipes and cigarettes.

Corporal K
May 2, 2008, 02:04 PM
There's a local gun shop that I frequent even though it's on the other side of town. The owner and staff are friendly and knowledgeable and will negotiate.

When I go in, though, I don't ask them to pull things off the rack or out of the case unless I'm serious about a purchase. In other words, I don't waste their time.

Unfortunately, the place is full of gun-shop commandos who fondle things they'll never buy and babble endlessly to the sales guys about 9mm vs .45 or whatever.

A lot of gun shop owners are clueless but so are a lot of their walk-in "customers".

230RN
May 2, 2008, 02:09 PM
LR1 said:

AU
Here in Australia everybody is against us. Yes the whole population so its in the best interest of the gun shops to be nice.

Maybe that ties in with the positive comments from our California friend, above.

Welcome aboard, mate!

siglite, as I said, I got tired of working 70 or more hours a week and sleeping on a cot in the store every once in a while.

rainbowbob, we've still got 'em out here. But I think you have to join a "club" (probably dues are $1.00 per year :) ) to get in the back room to enjoy/test the cigars. As a third-class citizen, I frequent the place to buy my evil yucchy cigarettes and bought a couple of hygrometers from them to keep an eye on the humidity in my gun storage areas. Had to calibrate the hygrometers (a simple process), but I was glad to find them in the first place. Had been looking for cheap hygrometers for a year.

PAshooter
May 2, 2008, 02:24 PM
I'm blessed to have two great gunshops nearby. The first, also my indoor range, is big, friendly, staffed by helpful knowledgeable folks, and their prices are fair. They do charge a surcharge for credit card use, but I don't like the damned things anyway, and would rather pay cash. Sort of forces me to save up for what I want - not a bad thing. Anything they have (or can get) that I want is purchased there.

Much closer to home (like a block away) is a little bitty Browning dealer that's also a taxidermist and a framing (as in picture framing) shop. They probably stock only a couple dozen rifles and shotguns, but offer a fair deal on transfers. All my Internet and mail order purchases get transferred through them.

So I'm pretty well covered.

rse2
May 2, 2008, 02:40 PM
I've experienced all the previous behaviors. My biggest gripe is NO GUN gun shops.

Here in the West Palm Beach area all the shops have decided to "legally" post that they are NO GUN ZONES. No kidding.

One has gone out of business apparently. I walked out and never went back after my first and only visit a few years ago. Yes I asked about the policy. No joy. Had a nice little range I would have gladly joined too.

The others are currently adamant. Citing "safety" concerns. Alternative "safety" postings I've seen work well else ware were suggested and rejected. No Handling, always holstered etc... They all give CCW classes too. Just don't exercise your rights around us.

The only store that respects CCW is the new Gander Mountain of all places. So Gander Mountain wins my dollars.

I had the same problem in Tucson AZ. Found a good one that respected us (just keep it holstered) and they got all my business.

J Star
May 2, 2008, 02:59 PM
Just a couple of things from someone who used to work in retail:

Credit card surcharges: A lot of people don't realize that depending on the method used to accept credit cards, the store can be charged for each purchase. Thus, to accept your credit card, they either eat the cost from the profit, or they pass it on to you.

In the case of gun stores, the markup on a lot of guns is very small. In my case, my FFl dealer charged me $407 for a WASR-10. The dealer price was $327 + shipping, which was about $20. Deduct 8% NYS sales tax of about $32 from that total, and he made about $28.

Would YOU want to lose the 3-5% of that $28 to the credit card companies?

PAshooter
May 2, 2008, 03:55 PM
Would YOU want to lose the 3-5% of that $28 to the credit card companies?

It's actually 3-5% of the $407 selling price of the gun. So he'd make, what, $8?

I have no problem with surchages (which is actually a discount for cash), except when it comes to mailorder and internet stores. A credit card is pretty much your only choice when buying from them, so the cost of using them should be factored in to their advertised prices.

neededausername
May 2, 2008, 08:32 PM
When I was shopping for my Mark III I noticed this attitude at most of the local gun shops. Then I went into a shop that specialized in camping and fishing, and happened to sell guns as well. They were very friendly, and helpful. Didn't mind answering a first time gun owner's questions and didn't seem bothered by the fact that I told them I wasn't buying anything that day. Needless to say, when I did buy my gun, I bought it from them.

BTW, my Brother in law is in the market for a much more expensive gun. Guess where he is going to buy it from...

che_70b
May 2, 2008, 11:58 PM
About credit card charges. The ONLY store around here that charges extra to run a card is a gun shop. Every other place does not, though some have minimum purchase amount to use a card. Your arragement with a credit card company should be treated the same way you treat electricity bills, etc. Factored into you total operational costs not tacked on as an additional charge on a gun.

neviander
May 3, 2008, 01:49 AM
Wow, reading all of these posts makes me feel very blessed to have an uncle-in-law that owns a gun shop with a VERY large selection. Plus the family likes me so he'll order anything I want with no down payment AND he gives me a discount :eek:. I've only ordered a 24/7 9mm from him and am about to order an EAA witness E.M. .45 acp (I'm assuming he doesn't have one in stock). He sells AR-15's for about 400 less than Gander Mountain does...pm me if you're in the Tyler area and want the name of the store :)

WayneConrad
May 3, 2008, 02:34 AM
"No loaded guns" is also my biggest gripe.

I don't know why, but I usually get treated pretty well at gun stores. Today, I special ordered a gun. The fellow had to spend a fair amount of time tracking it down, but he seemed to know who to talk to with his distributors. That kind of service is worth paying for. And this store doesn't make me unload.

There is one gun store I won't set foot in again--they sold my sweetheart a revolver and then told her that the busted cylinder latch thumb piece was "supposed to spin around like that." They could have told her, "Smith and Wesson will take care of it, you can send it to them yourself, or we will do it for you, which would you like?" and I would have been happy with them. But they lied, and it cost them our business forever. By strange coincidence, that store is one of the ones that made me unload before entering. I don't miss that silliness.

coelacanth
May 3, 2008, 03:47 AM
lots of gunshops here in the valley of the sun - most pretty good - some laughably bad. The best of the bunch IMHO is the mom and pop store over in Mesa called The Pistol Parlor. No BS, no ridiculous prices, no problem. And no - I am not connected with them in any way.

230RN
May 3, 2008, 04:27 AM
neededausername remarked:

When I was shopping for my Mark III I noticed this attitude at most of the local gun shops. Then I went into a shop that specialized in camping and fishing, and happened to sell guns as well. They were very friendly, and helpful. Didn't mind answering a first time gun owner's questions and didn't seem bothered by the fact that I told them I wasn't buying anything that day. Needless to say, when I did buy my gun, I bought it from them.

To me, that ties in with the lack of training that most larger retail stores will give its employees --as I noted previously. It's also been my experience that if a store happens to sell guns as well as other stuff, the employees are much more courteous and welcoming. Just a general observation, confirmed recently with several experiences with a newly-opened store that mainly sold soccer balls and baseball gloves and the like (Big 5).

Neviander, you got an unmarried sister, maybe? Or even an unmarried grandmother? Or could I adopt you or something? Do you have any relatives at all in Colorado?

Anything? Anything at all?

Help me out, here.

Moonclip
May 3, 2008, 09:18 AM
Some of it is subjective too, on a bad day like we all have one might get the worlds greatest gun shop worker at a bad moment. Turners Reseda is a store where I've received some of the worst service ever. I don't go there much though and I like to think that this has changed since mid 2006 when I bought two guns there, I've bought at least over 20 from other Turners locations.

However a friend of mine called yesterday and got very poor service and attitude. I don't like to bring up the race/color/creed/sex/agething but unfortunately some customers at some stores might get better service due to falling in to a group the owner/worker likes better than another.

Homerboy
May 3, 2008, 09:52 AM
My gripe with gunshops is the crappy money they will give you for a pistol you sell them, then they put a tag on it and mark it up for the next sucker. The one I used to go to offered my 20 bucks for a Ruger SP101 because "nobody wants revolvers anymore". Then, I inquired about selling him a Glock 26 that I had bought FROM HIM a month before. I added night sights and just never warmed up to it, so I asked what he would give me for it. 100 BUCKS! Why? "I have overhead". He would have slapped a $500 price tag on that gun right after I left.

jhoff8487
May 3, 2008, 12:00 PM
After reading through this thread, all of these reasons are why I've gone almost exclusively to buying online. The guys at the local shop know my face and name real well but only because in the past 4 months I've had 5 or 6 transfers coming through.

I go to places like Gander Mountain to browse around, handle the guns, but then I find them online. Even with shipping and transfer I can save upwards of $50 on every gun I've bought(sometimes as much as $200). It almost makes me sick to see what I could have bought some of my first pistols for online and seeing how bad I got ripped off.

I'm all for supporting the small local shops but when they're unwilling to assist you, don't care if you buy from them, and ask me questions like why would I ever want that...I'm done with them. All they'll get is transfers. No ammo, no guns, nothing. If they don't want to sell their products, then I certainly don't want to buy them.

The only real great purchase I've had was from a guy on Gun Broker who owns a pawn shop/gun store. He's the only place I'd really eagerly buy from again. I've tried GunBroker, Buds, and another that lapses me. I really wasn't impressed with their service(other than one dealer on GB)...nothing extraordinary.

turnyourback
May 3, 2008, 12:06 PM
The guy in the shop was condescending and clueless..."why would you want that?...they're terrible!..they're no longer in business..etc etc."

the same thing happened to me when i went into a gun shop a few weeks ago. the guys in there asked me what i was looking for and when i said a .45, they looked at me like i was crazy and said the same thing - why would you want that?! then they made some comment about me being vindictive towards a possible ex-husband (what?) and it was sort of awkward. i guess they didn't expect someone like me (i guess i don't really come off as someone who'd be into guns) to come into their shop actually knowing something about guns and wanting a .45 instead of a smaller, more concealable revolver or something... which is what a guy at another gun shop tried selling me when i was clearly looking at glock pistols.

strange.

Texas Moon
May 3, 2008, 03:42 PM
My biggest gripe is the lack of availability in the local shops.
They always want to "order" something. Heck, I can order it myself.
I want to look and see and feel the thing before I buy it.
I've learned to work around the local shop. They have ONE distributor.
If the distributor ain't got it, you ain't getting it.
So......I find what I want on line...communicate with the seller direct....pay for it...have local doofuss fax the FFL and take delivery.
Its a P.I.T.A. but I get what I want. If I waited on them I'd be old and grey beofre I got what I wanted.

Moonclip
May 3, 2008, 05:43 PM
yeah I like the we can "order" it thing too! I didn't want to order it, thats why I walked in to your store! I wanted some grips for a Colt D frame once and I got the we can order it speech. You can't stock everything but still...

I did know a gunshop that went under that did have almost EVERYTHING evena little attitude thrown in for free sometimes:). Obscure calibers in stock and things like 3 shot 1/2 moonclips for out of production Astra and Ruger revolvers in stock.

neviander
May 4, 2008, 01:49 AM
230RN, No one (female) in the family is available at the moment, that I know of...sorry :p I've been to Golden a while back, pretty town, waaay up there.

230RN
May 4, 2008, 11:05 AM
^^^

Darn!

mhinagoya
May 4, 2008, 12:05 PM
I have a system for shopping for guns.

I take my wife with me. We walk in and her arm is through mine, like you would walk a date in to a prom.

If the man behind the counter won't be polite to a woman, then they are the bottom of the barrel and I walk out. I have no time to waste on a rude, crass individual.

If the salesman is polite to my wife and there is something I want to look at (am considering buying), I ask to see it and discuss it with my wife. A polite man will not interrupt a discussion between a man and his wife. This gives me time to examine the gun as much as I feel necessary. If I am very serious, I hand it to my wife and she will comment on how it feels in her hand.

Try it. You might be amazed at the difference it will make. It also doesn't hurt to realize that most guns are expensive and the presence of a wife along will signal to the counter person that someone may be serious about making a family purchase.

Bill.

jhansman
May 4, 2008, 12:23 PM
Look, I'm all for patronizing my local shop. No one has it tougher than the local B&M these days. Still, for a rifle I am in the market for, my gun shop wants $625 + sales tax (which they have to charge, I know), + transfer fee + DROS. I can order the same gun online for $515, no tax, free shipping, and my FFL's fee of $40. There is no way this shop will pricematch, so what should I do? The last time I priced gun with them and hinted that I could do much better online, the guy shrugged, turned and walked away. Guess where I bought?

AirForceShooter
May 4, 2008, 12:36 PM
+1 for the bringing the wife.
I'm married for 39 years and only bought a gun without my wife twice.
She's fun to take.

And if the clerk pisses her off, we're gone.

AFS

Atla
May 4, 2008, 12:39 PM
Only problem I really have is the gun stores that are also either pawn shops or sell a bunch of non-sporting goods junk in it.

Like I want to go into some dingy building full of numb-chucks and throwing stars to drop almost a thousand on a good gun. Crap like that draws in sketchy people I don't care to be around.

daniel1113
May 4, 2008, 12:40 PM
This thread has pretty much outlined the reasons I don't shop at local gun shops anymore. Except for one shop that I've visited while home in CO, all the local shops I've been to tend to be overpriced, dirty/rundown, and poorly stocked. At the same time, the employees tend to be rude and unpleasant.

If these local B&M stores want to compete with the large retailers and online sales, they need to change their business models. They need to stop competing on price alone. Not only is it impossible for a local shop to compete against the larger stores, but price isn't the only selector customers use when looking for a gun shop. I wouldn't mind paying a reasonable premium at a gun shop that created a had a knowledgeable staff with a decent selection of guns and accessories and that treated its customers with respect.

Until I find such a shop, I'll stick with online stores. At least I get a good price online.

alemonkey
May 4, 2008, 02:32 PM
If I have the money someday when I'm retired (if guns are even still legal 30 years from now) I think it would be kinda fun to own a gun shop. Not necessarily to make money, but more of a place to keep me busy and out of the wife's hair. Maybe sell just enough to break even and buy a few toys for myself. There's a small shop here that's like that - just an older gentleman and his buddies who hang out and drink coffee while talking about guns all day. It's a hoot stopping it to shoot the breeze with them.

rich0372
May 4, 2008, 07:07 PM
It's actually 3-5% of the $407 selling price of the gun. So he'd make, what, $8?

I have no problem with surchages (which is actually a discount for cash)
How is it a discount for cash when the posted price is say $400 you should pay $400 plus tax not a surcharge too.

I have a big problem with this I've been working in retail for 20 years 10 years as a manager and this is not good buisness. Why should I pay for thier costs. Nobody walks around with $500-$1000 anymore they use plastic. There is only one gunshop in my area that charges a 3% surcharge on CC purchases and 2% on debit. and I refuse to shop there.


Funny thing is their prices are already higher than their competiters.

They also have the attitude than if they don't sell it it's garbage.
To me costomer service is everything if you are nice, friendly, knowledgable, and offer a good price....I will buy from you all day

buck00
May 4, 2008, 07:16 PM
The beauty and reality of capitalism is it corrects and improves itself. The small ma and pop gun shops can evolve and compete... or go extinct. This ain't 1965. :rolleyes:

WayneConrad
May 4, 2008, 07:18 PM
I go to places like Gander Mountain to browse around, handle the guns, but then I find them online. Even with shipping and transfer I can save upwards of $50 on every gun I've bought(sometimes as much as $200). It almost makes me sick to see what I could have bought some of my first pistols for online and seeing how bad I got ripped off.
Oh, my. Please don't do this. Maybe you should think about who is ripping off who.

From Buy Where you Shop (http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oreilly/tim/articles/buy_where_shop.html) by Tim O'Reilly:
Think about it for a minute: the retailer pays rent, orders and stocks the product, pays salespeople. You take advantage of all those services, and then give your money to someone else who can give you a better price because they don't incur the cost of those services you just used. Not only is this unfair; it's short-sighted, because it will only be so long before that retailer closes his or her doors, and you can no longer make use of those services you enjoy.

jimmyraythomason
May 4, 2008, 07:38 PM
There is no way that a "mom and pop" store can compete with Mega-Mart on price. That is why there will only be Mega-Marts in the near future because we consumers will put up with all of their crap to get a cheaper price. What will we do when they decide not to sell guns anymore?

daniel1113
May 4, 2008, 08:49 PM
jimmyrarythomason,

You assume that a gun shop can only compete on price, but that is not true. These local "mom and pop" shops need to find other areas in which to compete, such as service and convenience.

I have a few friends who are extremely thrifty and often find it hard to accept that for some people its not always about getting the lowest price. For example, they will spend months scouring gun shows looking for a deal, usually settling for something less than they originally hoped, whereas I prefer to head straight to a shop and pay a premium for them to find the gun in the exact configuration that I want. Sure, I end up paying more now, but for me, the price premium is well worth not having to waste my time.

The point being that these local shops could do quite well by catering to the non-thrifty crowd. We are out there :)

jimmyraythomason
May 4, 2008, 09:15 PM
I made no such assumption. If a shop cannot offer more than the big chain they certainly will go extinct. Since it is impossible to beat the big chain store pricewise, a small shop must offer service and/or expertise. Mega-store does not offer anything BUT price,no knowledge of product or anything else useful. When I buy a scope or mounts from my local shop,I can have it mounted and bore sighted there. Try that at Mega-Mart. BTW,there is nothing convienient about shopping at our local Super store.

GingerGuy
May 5, 2008, 08:55 AM
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm157/GingerGuy_photos/Belleville%20Shooting%20Range/BelllevilleShootingRange004.jpg
Sure you read comments going both ways on gun stores, but not having one close would not be fun. Nothing is better than being able to see what you are thinking about purchasing. This store gets beat-up too, but if you are friendly and pleasant, they will service your needs quite well. Huge inventory of everything and conducts all kinds of classes.

Just imagine how many people they deal with that are jerks, poor gun handling skills, etc.

I'm just a customer and will continue to be one.

rockinrussky
May 5, 2008, 10:13 AM
Fact of the matter is that the 'big box retailers' don't really offer better prices. From my experiences, the Gander Mtns and Bass Pro Shops that I've been to are actually worse than the mom and pop shops as far as prices go. I realize that it flies in the face of conventions and commonly held beliefs that they all operate on economies of scale. From my first hand experience, and by the volume of people chiming in on these 'gander mountain=bad prices' threads, I don't think the small retailers are going anywhere quite yet.

jimmyraythomason
May 5, 2008, 10:23 AM
rockinrussky; our only gunshop in town is less than a mile from our Wal-Mart Superstore but much higher on arms and ammunition. I was in the market for a 7mm Rem.mag. about this time last year. The gun shop had a Rem.700 for $700 and a Savage 110 for $500(figures rounded off,not exact price) while W-M had the same rifles,exact same models for $370 and $340 respectively. They have (W-M) already driven the local hardware stores out of business,two drug stores and two furniture stores also gone. The story is the same, others will follow. Our town has a population of 6-10k people and W-M has been here since 1980. Their dominance is having it's effect. The superstore's prices are increasing as the competition decreases.

dalepres
May 6, 2008, 01:10 AM
Gunshop owners are constantly bombarded with people telling them how cheap they can get the same gun online... oh, and would you please fax them your FFL so I can buy it cheaper than you can sell it to me?

Let me just ask one question. When your local gun shop goes under, from whom will you buy guns? To whom will you have your favorite online retailer ship guns to? When Wal-Mart quits selling ammo, from whom will you buy ammo?

Gunshops usually make single-digit margins on weapon sales. How excited to you expect them to be?

If you want a particular gun, go into your local gunshop and ask them to order it. If they aren't an expert in your choice of gun, so what? They cannot possibly be expert in every kind of gun - you're not, are you? They probably know a lot more about those they sell. They, like you, have their own reasons for liking what they like. Like you, they suggest what they like, not what they carry. They carry what they like.

If you want something they don't carry and they suggest something that they do as an alternative, don't be offended; they're in business. Besides you'll probably be in for them to work on whatever you buy and they'd rather work on what they know. So what if they offer you something other than your heart's desire. Get over it. Politely let them know you just really have to have the gun you want and ask how much deposit for the special order. And when they tell you, don't walk out of the store and come back next week asking the same thing about next week's drool. When they tell you how much deposit, whip out your checkbook and write a check. Or your credit card and tell them, "Yes, I understand there's a 3% charge." (Afterall, they have to compete with Internet pricing that does the same.) In any case, order the gun. If you don't order it, that means you didn't want it. And if you want to just compare prices between models, go to Galleryofguns.com or buds or something. If you want to buy a gun, go to your local gunshop.

In my most recent gun purchase (no, I do not work for or own a gunshop - or even know anyone who does other than from the counter in the shop) I paid less by walking up to the counter, asking how much, and making my deposit than I would have by ordering from the cheapest online price, paying shipping to the store, and paying their $25 paperwork fee.

Had the gun cost me 10% more in the local store, I still would have bought it from them. Quit quibbling over pennies.

*edit* I like to reverse the trend by letting those online stores provide me all of the information I need to decide on my next gun purchase but then don't spend a penny with them; I take all that free knowledge they gave me into my local bricks-and-morter gunshop and make my purchases. just my little bit of rebellion.

rainbowbob
May 6, 2008, 02:16 AM
dalepres:

Everything you said was on the money. I learned a number of things from that post I had never considered.

Let me just ask one question. When your local gun shop goes under, from whom will you buy guns? To whom will you have your favorite online retailer ship guns to? When Wal-Mart quits selling ammo, from whom will you buy ammo?

That's actually three questions...but they're good ones - so who's counting?


Support your favorite gun store!

jrfoxx
May 6, 2008, 06:13 AM
we only have like 3 actual gunshops here, and of the 2 I've been in, the workers were nice and friedly, the prices seemed average, and selection was about average too, so I cant complain. We also have at least 2 "pawn" shops that have big gun selections. the 1 have have been in has a pretty nice selection, the workers are great, the prices good, and they do the cheapest transfers I have found, so I have used them a few times.

sadly, the local milsurp only gunshop, while VERY cool to browse, with a very large selection of oddities,with a very nice owner, is HORRIBLY overpriced on guns.Still fun to look though, and ammo works out to the same price as online with shipping, so I get a lot there, just to cash and carry instead of wait for UPS.

We have a few big box places like walmart, big 5, and GI Joes that sell guns, but the counter people arent nessecarilly gun people, and seem generally clueless, so I dont bother with them at all.

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