The SKS slamfire "epidemic", or slamfire schmamfire


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grimjaw
May 1, 2008, 09:47 AM
I read an article recently that recommended that the SKS NOT be chosen as a "home defense" or "sport utility" rifle because of it's tendency to slamfire. I know the mechanical possibility for this, but in probably over 1500 rounds in various SKSs, I have not been able to duplicate the feat.

So I'm trying to gauge the spread of this contagion to THR. I know this isn't scientific, just want to see who among us has experienced the phenomenon. If you have experienced one and answer the poll, please post what kind of SKS you were using and what ammunition.

Much thanks.

jm

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akolleth
May 1, 2008, 09:53 AM
Yugo 59/66, about 3-400 rounds down range, no slamfires. I Have shot Remington, Winchester, and Wolf through it.

K3
May 1, 2008, 09:56 AM
One of these will eliminate the possibility:

http://www.murraysguns.com/sksown.htm

That said, prior to installing that spring, I never had one. I can see it happening though. I've played with the bolt a little, and sometimes the firing pin would stick a little as I shook it around. If somebody didn't get all the cosmoline out, it *could* stick enough to strike the primer with enough force to detonate it.

Halo
May 1, 2008, 09:58 AM
I think it's an overstated concern. Keep the firing pin channel clean and use military grade ammo (i.e. no soft primers), and the risk is negligible.

grimjaw
May 1, 2008, 09:58 AM
K3, I know it can happen, just as it can with several other free floating firing pin designs (Makarov, etc). I just discount the idea that it's "common" with a properly maintained rifle.

jm

NG VI
May 1, 2008, 09:59 AM
I only have about 120 rounds out of one SKS, but it never slamfired on me. And I don't think it was well cleaned at all.

GRIZ22
May 1, 2008, 09:59 AM
The SKS slamfire is brought on by:

1. Dirty bolts which turn the floating firing pin into a fixed firing pin. Look through gun cleaning threads and you'll see scores of people who believe they never have to clean a gun.

2. Improperly seated primers on reloads or possibly soft primers.

I've never shot reloads in my SKS (still have a stock of cheap ammo). I've experienced some hard primers that took a second strike to touch off. Never had a slamfire but I've only used factory ammo (WW, Chinese, Russian, East German, Finnish, Israeli, etc. in my Chinese SKS.

hatchetbearer
May 1, 2008, 10:01 AM
I have not been able to replicate this on my own sks, but while shooting my friends, (yugo with grenade launcher) using a box of PMC fmj rounds, it slamfired until empty after pulling the trigger, cosmoline isnt believed to be a factor, as he disassembled his bolt, boiled it, and wiped it clean. I personally avoid all PMC ammo like th plague.

K3
May 1, 2008, 10:02 AM
K3, I know it can happen, just as it can with several other free floating firing pin designs (Makarov, etc). I just discount the idea that it's "common" with a properly maintained rifle.

jm

I'd agree that it's uncommon, especially with a rifle that's been stripped and cleaned of all cosmo and is well maintained.

I installed the spring anyway so that I'd have one less possibility nagging at me.

The Russian SKS's didn't have the free floating pin. I wonder why the Chinese and Yugos opted for that particular design.

HJ857
May 1, 2008, 10:38 AM
I've had a few slams in both my Norincos. If I recall those tended to be in cold weather. The Murray firing pin pretty much eliminated the problem. However, it is very important to inspect the spring from time to time because that thing will wear out.

This past winter I had a spring bind up the channel as it was basically disintegrating just through normal use. The end result was a bent pin. Fortunately it did not jam forward, but instead just stuck in the channel and would not engage the primer at all.

I replaced that with the current (new) Murray pin which seems like a nicer design and all's been well.

As mentioned slams are not unique to the SKS. I've seen a couple M4's and a Kel-Tec go FA within just the past year.

Frog48
May 1, 2008, 10:56 AM
I have a little over 1000 rounds through my Yugo M59/66 SKS, and have never experienced a slamfire.

res45
May 1, 2008, 11:04 AM
I shoot allot of different types and brands of ammo in my YUGO & Chinese SKS's over the years,never had a single slamfire,but I keep my rifles very clean and well maintained.

Russian ammo seem to make thing a lot dirtier I have a small stash of that,mostly GT and BB, but I shoot primarily reloads now combined with the CCI #34 Mil-Spec primer and clean burning Reloader #7 power. It really helps eliminate the slamfire problem and keeps the rifle allot cleaner and less likely to crud up with powder,lacquer and primer sealant residue. Just keep the rifle clean especially the bolt and if you reload use the correct primer for the type of firing pin you have installed.

armoredman
May 1, 2008, 11:11 AM
I've been shooting SKS rifles since the early 80s, and I have never had one slamfire. I've even made a Mini-14 cook off, but never an SKS slamfire. Yet.

Soybomb
May 1, 2008, 11:16 AM
My belief is that most slamfires in the SKS happen in rifles that weren't properly cleaned. If you buy milsurp you need to strip the gun down completely or pay someone to do it and get the cosmo out of it. I think a lot of people dont and wind up with hot cosmoline in the bolt and slamfires.

jdc1244
May 1, 2008, 11:17 AM
800 rounds or so and no problems keep the bolt clean and all will be fine.

tmajors
May 1, 2008, 11:22 AM
ALL semi-automatic weapons have the possibility of slam-firing. Just recently there was a gentleman that was arrested for transferring a machine gun because his AR-15 slam fired when it was loaned to someone else.

The SKS is just notorious for it because some models have a free floating firing pin so seems to do it more frequently then other semi-auto weapons.

Cleaning an SKS after EVERY shooting session is the #1 way to prevent slam fires. Murry's Guns (linked above) has a spring solution for this problem if you have an SKS with a free floating firing pin. Cleaning still beats the spring solution though.

PirateRadio
May 1, 2008, 11:22 AM
I'm going to be shooting my SKS for the first time in a couple week and you guys have me scared mine is going to slamfire. Maybe I'll go clean mine again before I shoot...

mainmech48
May 1, 2008, 11:22 AM
I have a modest assortment (not systematic enough to be called a "collection") of SKSes and have owned about 50 different examples, all told, over the past 20-odd years. I've run into this phenom twice. One was truly memorable and embarassing with an entire 10-rd. mag rockin' and rollin' down range in one burst. Fortunately, the muzzle was correctly oriented and nothing was damaged but my calm.

Both times were with US-made commercial ammo and both carbines were surplus models, well-used, but in VG overall condition.

Neither case was due to a "stuck" FP. This was verified, as much as is possible, on field stripping after the incident. On both the FP moved freely when the bolt was inverted from the vertical 180 degrees.

Since I have never had this happen in any carbine while using surplus or true mil-spec ammo my conclusion is that the primers used in some US-made commercial generic ball and hunting ammo uses ( or at least did at the time) primers that are much more sensitive than military loads. I'm not sure whether this is due to the compound, cup material or a combination of both.

If you chamber a round in an SKS in the normal manner (pull back the charging handle to release and let the bolt run forward under the impetus of the recoil spring) and extract the round without firing you will almost always find a slight "dimple" in the primer cup.

IMO, the primers on military spec ammo designed specifically for use in semi, selective-fire and full auto arms with non-inertial FPs are made to be more resistant to impact forces than those generally found on "sporting" loads.

For myself, I limit my SKS shooting to mil-spec ammo. I don't handload for the cartridge as yet, as I also have a reasonable supply of suitable ammo remaining from happier times. If I had to use handloads or commercial sporting ammo in them, I'd put the inertial FP conversion mentioned above in my carbine(s). It's the only mechanical fix I know of that has proven reliable in avoiding the problem.

dewage83
May 1, 2008, 11:27 AM
I cleaned my bolt 3 times before I got all of the cosmoline out. The disassembly pin wouldnt come out and would "ooze" out cosmoline when worked in a vat of kerosene (FLAMABLE- not reccomending it but it worked wonders for me)

briansmithwins
May 1, 2008, 11:47 AM
I've had exactly one slamfire.

I had manually placed a round in the chamber and I dropped the bolt. The round in the chamber fired when the bolt hit it. There was no damage to the gun and as I was obeying the rule about not covering the muzzle with anything valuable there was no down-range damage either.

The firing pin on this particular rifle had been cleaned by me and was spotless. I immediately checked for a frozen firing pin but the firing pin rattled in the bolt when shaken.

The cartridge that slamfired was American Eagle, not military spec. I suspect the inertia of the firing pin ignited the soft primer of the AE when I dropped the bolt on it. That being said I'm not planning on loading that rifle that way again.

BSW

DPris
May 1, 2008, 11:48 AM
Since Grimjaw asked for those who'd experienced slamfires, and not those who didn't, I'll jump in with one slamfire on a Chinese government SKS (not a commercial one) that was unfired when I got it in the late 80s.
I'd thoroughly cleaned all the cosmo out of everything, the bolt & pin were clean, and it occured with Chinese surplus ammunition.
Only happened once.
Denis

Eightball
May 1, 2008, 12:34 PM
Something over 1000 rounds, no slamfire.

frogomatic
May 1, 2008, 12:36 PM
I've put more than 50,000 rounds through my SKS, and never have had a slamfire.

Kurt S.
May 1, 2008, 01:24 PM
I've put about 3 or 4 thousand rounds through my original Chinese. I experienced a couple of slamfires at about 1000 rounds or so. I had never given the rifle a teardown cleaning, just basic anti-corrosion or anti-fouling cleanings after range sessions. After the 2nd slamfire I took it apart and the doggone thing had all kinds of powder fouling, oil, and even cosmo inside. My bad, I knew better. After this cleaning I never had the problem again.

I've only put a few hundred rounds through my Yugo. I cleaned it good before the first time I fired it.

brighamr
May 1, 2008, 01:30 PM
5000+ rounds zero slamfires. How? I clean it thoroughly every 500 rounds and I don't over-oil the action. (I've heard too much oil will gum it up causing the slams)

MD_Willington
May 1, 2008, 01:31 PM
Never had it happen.

Clean the cosmo-snot out of the trigger group via long term soak in Berryman B-9 Chem-Dip (be careful with this stuff), then the trigger group has a lovely hot bath in the dishwasher...

Acheron
May 1, 2008, 01:32 PM
I went through about 500 rounds without cleaning the firing pin channel (I cleaned the gun though) with no slamfires. I've had a few hangfires, but that was an ammo issue.

Cmdr. Gravez0r
May 1, 2008, 03:24 PM
My understanding has been that most people experience a slamfire if they haven't cleaned ou the cosmo. I've only heard of it happening under normal use after a LOT (1000's) of rounds fired.

ZeSpectre
May 1, 2008, 03:48 PM
I'd agree that it's uncommon, especially with a rifle that's been stripped and cleaned of all cosmo and is well maintained.

I installed the spring anyway so that I'd have one less possibility nagging at me.

Same here.
So far I've only had an issue with one SKS that kept "doubling" and that was a trigger sear problem (somebody who didn't know what they were doing ground that sear to neutral engagement).

atblis
May 1, 2008, 03:56 PM
Doesn't the AR/M16 have a floating firing pin?

mio
May 1, 2008, 04:15 PM
i picked 1-100 with at least 1 slamfire. it wasnt actually me shooting it. the one time my buddy brought his sks when we went target shooting i watched it slamfire on him.

scared the hell out of both of us.

RockyMtnTactical
May 1, 2008, 04:22 PM
It's an overblown issue, however, ALWAYS KEEP THE WEAPON POINTED IN A SAFE DIRECTION regardless.

scythefwd
May 1, 2008, 05:09 PM
atblis,
Yes, the M116 has a free floating firing pin.

Before I knew better, I bought some remington 7.62X39 ammo. All rounds have R P and 7.62X39mm on the brass. Has anyone had any slamfires with this ammo (rem.) and is it a pretty sure thing that it has soft primers?

TehK1w1
May 1, 2008, 05:28 PM
Approx 150 rounds through my 59/66 without a slamfire, mostly Wolf or WWB.

Edit to say: 100 rounds out of my Makarov and no slamfires :)

WayneConrad
May 1, 2008, 05:33 PM
Let's just say that there is more than one way to install the triangular firing pin of a Yugo SKS.

And only one of them is correct, and lets the firing pin float properly. :eek:

Bartkowski
May 1, 2008, 05:34 PM
I have shot a few hundred out of a few different SKS's, 2 yugo's and a romanian, 0 slamfires. If you have the bolt clean, and free of thick grease, you shouldn't have a problem.

Vaarok
May 1, 2008, 05:55 PM
I've never had a slamfire in either of my SKSes and I've gone through maybe three or four cases of ammo. I did have a couple primers pop and gum up the firing pin from engaging during the era of Crap Wolf Ammo, but nothing else.

Ben Shepherd
May 1, 2008, 09:56 PM
Back when yugos first hit the market I bought a few. Read a lot, played with them a lot, and shoot some of them a lot(Some still unissued in cosmo:D).

While I haven't had a slam fire, I've seen it a few times. Once was my 12 year old nephew when he dropped the bolt on a full magazine. Scared him but good.....all 10 rounds in just about 1 second even.


Moral of the story: No matter who I buy one from the bolt ALWAYS gets tore all the way down and cleaned.

no_problem
May 1, 2008, 10:12 PM
Yes, they DO Slamfire, they also go full auto sometimes. Always point an SKS up and downrange at all times.

I had one that my buddy owns empty 10 rds just loaded from a stripper clip. It was a Norinco SKS. There was a known defect in the trigger mechanism. One call to the US distributor and they took it back and repaired it with an upgrade. No cost at all.

mokin
May 1, 2008, 10:18 PM
I finally had a couple slamfires (after at least 1000 rounds or so) in the middle of a 3 gun match seperated by normal single shots. I figure it was a primer or seating issue. I take pretty good care of my rifles.

My brother on the other hand, said he could load 10 rounds, drop the bolt, and have all 10 of them go off without touching the trigger. He said he eventually had to take it to a gunsmith to get it "fixed". I doubt he is as thorough as I am in his weapons maintanence.

chris in va
May 1, 2008, 10:57 PM
I didn't have a slamfire with my Yugo, but it did get the firing pin stuck. Seems a piece of what looked like chrome flaked off inside the channel, keeping the pin from moving forward. If that flake had jammed it FORWARD, then it would have easily slamfired.

Southern Gobbler
May 1, 2008, 11:00 PM
I had a slamfire a few years ago but it was my own fault. In my eagerness to get out to the range and try my new rifle I didn't completely break down the bolt and clean out all the cosmoline. Just sprayed it down with some solvent and figured it was good to go. After about 100 rounds the rifle fired a three round burst. Seeing as the rifle didn't have any select fire lever I had accidently flipped I figured this was probably a good time to pack it up and head home. After dissassembling the bolt and giving it a thourough cleaning I have never had any problems. Remember kids, keep those SKS's clean!

CHAINGUNMASSACRE
May 1, 2008, 11:18 PM
I had my Chinese SKS loaded with "green box" Chinese milsurp ammo. I was Coyote hunting, it was about -12 deg F. I had the rifle lubed with regular hoppes gun oil. I was loading it, and when I chambered the 1st round, it slamfired. Into the frozen ground about 3 feet in front of me. I started using Rem-oil in cold weather after that. apparently that Chinese stuff has soft primers anyway, so it may not have happened with wolf.

Gingerbreadman
May 2, 2008, 12:05 AM
Probably 800 rounds through my SKS without a slamfire, and I didn't even get the bolt completely clean for the first hundred rounds or so ( whoops, now I know better...).

jpwilly
May 2, 2008, 12:27 AM
I should have had a slam fire but didn't. The firing pin did get "stuck" in the "fire" position but fortunately didn't ignite the round.

3 gun
May 2, 2008, 02:14 AM
I'd bet 99.98% of all slam fires are cause by poor cleaning or gun handling. Don't load into the chamber, only from the mag, and keep your bolt clean.

mr.trooper
May 2, 2008, 02:27 AM
Just boil the cosmo out of your bolt assembly. it takes like 10 min and its easy as hell.

guntotinguy
May 2, 2008, 02:44 AM
I have a Yugo and a Russian,recently put about 500 rounds each through them...not one slamfire and I dont expect i will yet I will most certainly take every safety steps possible just in case.

Beetle Bailey
May 2, 2008, 02:49 AM
I had 1 slamfire with my Yugo M59/66. I had already cleaned it out and shot it many times without problems. One time I shot several hundred rounds of Wolf and then followed it up with American Eagle ammo. When I pulled the trigger on round 9, it fired twice, emptying the gun. I think it was a combo of dirty firing pin channel and soft American commercial primer. Total round count was over 2200 rounds of Wolf and 500 rounds of American Eagle. I eventually sold the SKS, but if I still had it (kinda wish I did) I would blast it with brake cleaner after every shoot and only use Russian ammo.

Dksimon
May 2, 2008, 02:51 AM
The only slamfire I have ever seen is when an idiot friend of my cousin tried some home gunsmiting (I dont know what his exact intent was) he pulled the trigger once and the gun went full auto for the remainder of the mag.
It was cool to see but rather frightening when you think bout the possibility for accidents.

qajaq59
May 2, 2008, 06:41 AM
Keep the firing pin channel clean It sure isn't the rifle. It's the operator. And I have no ax to grind because I don't even own one. But I have a neighbor who does, and he NEVER seems to clean his guns. First day I took him to the range he gets a slam fire that scared the devil out of him. I told him to try cleaning it for a change and he wouldn't have to worry about it. And after reading this thread I guess it was good advice.

Neo-Luddite
May 2, 2008, 09:23 AM
Pay no attention to the following anectdote

I'm not an SKS guy, but I have 2 yugos I bought a few years back. One is still in Cosmo and the other I cleaned very well--except that I seem to have not got all the cosmo out of the bolt (I baked but didn't disasemble). First go with the rifle a couple years back, after 80 rounds, I discovered that the firing pin was broken inside the bolt. So it sat that way for a while.

Me, being a lazy man, finally just ordered a pin AND an entire used bolt from numerich. We dropped in the bolt and discovered something was not cool w/ the headspace. I bought a spare firing pin and know i need to buckle down use an arbor press and finally just get the old bolt apart.

But because I am lazy, for now, the original bolt with the still-broken pin is back in the rifle and I've been shooting with it in that condition basically tempting fate. It works flawlessly with the original broken pin and, in fact, I am tempted to just leave it alone as it's running well.

Then again, it's a fun-plinker and I'm not hunting feral pigs or defending myself with it.

So as people are apt to say around here, YMMV.

Nightwing
May 2, 2008, 10:27 AM
I don't even know what slamfire is. Maybe I've never experienced it. Please explain

fletcher
May 2, 2008, 11:27 AM
I had a Norinco SKS and probably put about 600-800 rounds through it during my ownership, and had exactly one slamfire. It was used almost exclusively with Wolf ammo.

I don't even know what slamfire is. Maybe I've never experienced it. Please explain
A slamfire occurs when the slide or bolt of a firearm returns to battery when the firing pin is stuck forward or otherwise caused to go forward, and fires. Mine was pointed downrange, pulled back to chamber the round from a new magazine and BAM.

grimjaw
May 2, 2008, 11:51 AM
Nightwing, what fletcher said, and since the pin is stuck forward, when the firearm returns to battery after the first slamfire, BAM again.

mio and others who've experienced slamfires, lots of types of guns, but little mention of the ammunition used. I've read (anecdotal) that slamfires can occur more easily with "softer" primers used on some ammunition, as opposed to the 'hard as nails' primers on Russian or European-made fare. If know you know ammo was being used, post it.

jm

mr.trooper
May 2, 2008, 12:09 PM
The cause of slam fire is not a mystery.

What IS a mystery is how people still have them when the solution is simple and commonsense.

Wolfgang2000
May 2, 2008, 12:38 PM
I've had or given as presents many Chi-Com SKS's. I've shot a LOT of x39 ammo. All the ammo I've shot was Russian, with a little Remington and Lapua. I've had exactly 1 round slam fire, (Russian ammo). I still don't know what caused it. I've fired several hundred rounds from the same rifle since then with no problem.

res45
May 2, 2008, 01:06 PM
probably got hold of one of these bad Rds. wolf had floating around a while back they had soft primers that would either go off when the firing pin slammed agents the primer or they would be pierced causing a small ring of primer material to either get lodged in the firing pin channel or stick around the firing pin itself locking it in the forward position causing the rifle to go full auto.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/rhsikes/BLOWNprimerWolfMC-1.jpg

Kivaari
May 2, 2008, 01:39 PM
Any rifle with an inertia pin should always breech a round from the magazine.

Sticking firing pins can cause this hence the wise advice to keep 'em clean. The interface between the firing pin and the bolt stop is an almost identical angle. An aftermarket pin, spring or not, sometimes changes this angle and hence greatly minimizes the contact/stop area thus minimizes the opportunity to stick.

Different protrusion specs will occur from rifle to rifle. A well used rifle might have extended the stop due to peining from use. This manifests itself with a slight outward pucker sometimes at the firing pin port; the ports are sometimes cleaned with a tool that will angle the edge...and the bolt faces are SLIGHTLY stoned in this area.

Since inertia pin rifles are designed to be fired with mil spec primers (hard) the use of commercial ammo can certainly cause doubles, triples, etc or even empty the magazine as the primers are very soft. Dimpling of a mil-spec primer is not abnormal, SKS, M1, M14..whatever.

Limeyfellow
May 2, 2008, 01:42 PM
The Russian SKS's didn't have the free floating pin. I wonder why the Chinese and Yugos opted for that particular design.

They were copying the Russian design, since the Russians canned the spring and had the firing pin free floating after the first year or two.

ALL semi-automatic weapons have the possibility of slam-firing. Just recently there was a gentleman that was arrested for transferring a machine gun because his AR-15 slam fired when it was loaned to someone else.

It didn't help in this case, that the Ar-15 in question had been modified with a bunch of full automatic parts, thus making it illegal, and it wasn't because it was slamfired that he got into trouble. I hate how this myth that because an Ar-15 slamfired he got sent to prison. Still you made the correct point that any semi-automatic weapon has this problem with a free floating pin. Even such examples as the M1 Garand.

RockyMtnTactical
May 2, 2008, 02:42 PM
res45,

I have had so many blown primers with Wolf lately that I am seriously pissed with them. Never had a slamfire, but blown primers galore...

Evenflo76
May 2, 2008, 09:06 PM
Didn't read the whole thread.

I knew it woulda locked up. After I removed the cosmo, the striker was still sticking forward. Bought one of these. Cheap Insurance...

http://www.murraysguns.com/sksown.htm

Feanaro
May 3, 2008, 07:06 PM
Using Remington ammunition, my Chinese SKS slamfired two rounds and jammed the bullet of the third down into the case. I never bought another box of Remington 7.62x39 and never had that problem again.

Ben Shepherd
May 3, 2008, 08:05 PM
The sks mag dumps/slamfires I've seen have IN EVERY CASE been caused by a firing pin stuck forward.

Sometimes by being dirty/rough, but usually they still have cosmoline in the pin channel. Or, sometimes they pierce a primer, pull a small piece of that primer cup back with them when the bolt comes back. This sticks the pin in a protruding position, leading to the same result.

akodo
May 3, 2008, 08:56 PM
It didn't help in this case, that the Ar-15 in question had been modified with a bunch of full automatic parts, thus making it illegal, and it wasn't because it was slamfired that he got into trouble. I hate how this myth that because an Ar-15 slamfired he got sent to prison. Still you made the correct point that any semi-automatic weapon has this problem with a free floating pin. Even such examples as the M1 Garand.

more information please

Feanaro
May 3, 2008, 09:21 PM
The sks mag dumps/slamfires I've seen have IN EVERY CASE been caused by a firing pin stuck forward.

That didn't seem to be the case when mine slamfired. I had cleaned the bolt quite thoroughly and the firing pin moved freely. When I checked the rifle after the slamfire, the firing pin moved freely.

That doesn't, of course, mean that it wasn't stuck at the time. It could have been stuck and, in the process of disassembing it, I unstuck it. *shrug*

CHAINGUNMASSACRE
May 3, 2008, 10:01 PM
Like I said in my earlier post, really watch it in super cold(-10For below) temps. That's when mine happened.

tntwatt
May 3, 2008, 10:04 PM
Yugo 59/66, about 1k rounds down range, no slamfires. I shot Wolf.

res45
May 3, 2008, 11:44 PM
Using Remington ammunition, my Chinese SKS slamfired two rounds and jammed the bullet of the third down into the case. I never bought another box of Remington 7.62x39 and never had that problem again.

Unless you have the Murray's spring loaded firing pin installed shooting ammo with soft primers like Remington,Winchester or Federal a slamfire could occur at anytime chambering those commercial rounds so it wouldn't make any difference if your firing pin was free or not. Best to stick with the Russian offerings or if you reload use the CCI Mil-Spec primers with free floating firing pins.

Feanaro
May 3, 2008, 11:48 PM
Best to stick with the Russian offerings

That's what I concluded. It's cheaper anyways.

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