What to do when you see a "No Guns" Sign


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bogie
May 1, 2008, 02:23 PM
I've noticed that some people have some confusion around this...

Here's what to do.

1) Turn around, and go back to your car.

2) Purchase what you need at a different business.

3) While unarmed, enter the business with the offensive sign, and ask to see the manager. Show the manager the receipt, and explain why you shopped elsewhere.

3a) The manager's eyes will dart to your waistline, and you can then reply "Oh now, I respect your wishes, and I left my gun in the car, but I want to ensure my safety in the event of a holdup or a parking lot mugging or attack. You need to rethink your policies, because the only people who will pay attention to your signs are people like me - people who can prove that they are not criminals. Criminals will ignore your signs, or even possibly target your business or customers -because- of them. Have a great day!"



What NOT to do....

Do NOT measure the sign, decide that it isn't "legal," because it's a quarter-inch too small, and shop there anyway.

Do NOT compare the wording, if any, on the sign, with your state's statute, decide that it isn't "legal," and shop there anyway.

Do NOT "fail to notice" the sign that isn't posted at eye level in the middle of the door, and shop there anyway.

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WayneConrad
May 1, 2008, 02:31 PM
Yep. Somewhere in town is a business that isn't run by a bigot. Take your money there.

Is it more expensive? Too far to drive? Doesn't have the brand you want?

Being a friend of liberty has a price. What is the price of liberty to you? 50 cents? A dollar of gas? An off-brand toaster?

Somewhere in town is a businessman who is willing to let you keep your sidearm while you shop. Why give your money to someone who isn't, just because you can get away with it? Why reward cowardice and prejudice? What message do you send to the good man by doing that?

jhco
May 1, 2008, 02:40 PM
it depends on the buisness one of our local hospitals has a no wepons policy but i carry there anyway ive heard some jewlery stores have the same policy and if i wanted to go in there i would still carry however if it were a buisness that i depended on like my bank then i would have to realy consider if it was worth lossing the privledge of being able to use thier services

McCall911
May 1, 2008, 02:41 PM
I could only figure that these "no gun" signs meant that such businesses didn't want any armed robberies, so armed robbers should take their business elsewhere.

Or else.

:D

Surely they can't be so stupid as to advertise the fact that no one on the premises has a gun and that they don't want the business of law-abiding, legally armed people!

But sadly I realize that such people really are that stupid...

Citroen
May 1, 2008, 02:42 PM
Excellent post and suggestions. To make this even easier at least one group has somc business card size messages that are available to give to the manager.

I believe that is the Buckeye group in Ohio - but I could be wrong.

Most of my shopping is in Rock Hill, SC and I cannot recall ever seeing such a sign, so I have never ordered any of the cards.

Bogie, you are so very right with the dos and don'ts.

John
Charlotte, NC

todd128
May 1, 2008, 02:43 PM
I do not shop at a place with "the sign" I will just go some where else even if it means driving further

Chipperman
May 1, 2008, 03:26 PM
I have yet to see one of those signs anywhere that I go in MA or NH.

The only "No Guns" sign I've ever seen is in the Post Office.

Texan
May 1, 2008, 03:35 PM
On a recent visit to one of our local sports bars I noticed is now supporting one of the State's 51% signs (51% revenue is derived from the sell of alcohol) right as you walk in the door. Don't know just how long it's been there but just noticed it a couple weeks ago.

The place sells a hell of a lot more food, burgers and such than they do alcohol. I've just basically chosen to ignore it because, in my opinion, it's posted illegally.

o~\o

bogie
May 1, 2008, 03:45 PM
Okay... Wayne, I just lost...

It wasn't a Texan with a .30.06 sign definition... It was a 51% definition...

Personally, I'd give a bar in their situation a break tho, because their local alcohol licensing folks probably told them to put it up.

Now there's a restaurant that some shooting buddies and I used to go to that has -great- omelets... but they posted. So I don't eat there anymore. And I told them why.

4) The owners/managers are NOT psychic. If you don't tell them why you are shopping elsewhere, they don't notice, or they figured you saw one of the help flick a booger into the soup...

The Tourist
May 1, 2008, 03:47 PM
Not only would I refuse to shop there, but I would make sure that all of my friends who own firearms are informed of the policy.

Frog48
May 1, 2008, 03:51 PM
Ignore them, unless they are proper "30.06" and/or "51%" signs.

WayneConrad
May 1, 2008, 04:15 PM
bogie, I lost:

Costco. Switched to Sam's club. Had to make some brand adjustments.

Savers, the best thrift store ever. There's no real substitute. Everywhere else is much lower quality.

Yeah, taking action hurts. But inaction, in the long run, hurts more. I told 'em both why they weren't getting my money anymore.

bogie
May 1, 2008, 04:30 PM
Grant, do you know what "ignoring" them unless they're "legal" does?

It allows them to exist unopposed. It allows them to even proliferate - BubbaMart sees that Sidestreet Grocers put up a sign, so they think that they should do it too.

DO NOT ENTER. DO NOT SPEND MONEY THERE. DO NOT ENCOURAGE, EVEN THROUGH INACTION.

Because inaction is deadly.

Just make sure that the owner/manager KNOWS that you are spending your money elsewhere because of their policy.

Wayne, I told you it'd be a Texan - do I get points for that?

romma
May 1, 2008, 04:36 PM
I think in CT the only place I have seen anything like a "no guns" sign was at the Mohegan Sun Casino..

"No Weapons Of Any Kind Allowed"

tmajors
May 1, 2008, 04:39 PM
Ignore them. They aren't legally binding in Idaho....except on schools and federal property.

bogie
May 1, 2008, 04:46 PM
Okay - that's one from Texas, and one from Idaho...

T, they ARE binding, in that they are insulting, and downright dangerous.

Shop elsewhere, and tell the people in the place why. Otherwise, you are just encouraging bigotry against all of us.

rbernie
May 1, 2008, 09:00 PM
I'm just wondering how many folk are gonna keep posting 'ignore them' and completely and utterly miss the point of the thread.

Sometimes, it's really amusing to see how many folk don't actually read past the title of a thread befoire responding.

eric.cartman
May 1, 2008, 09:06 PM
In Florida?
I just smile, smirk, and walk in anyways :evil:

hobgob
May 1, 2008, 09:33 PM
thanks Bogie! If you saw my thread yesterday, then you know that advice was much needed. write your reps and join the nra!

Sans Authoritas
May 1, 2008, 09:37 PM
I like the Miami Hard Rock cafe sign: In very big, very official letters, a brass sign says "No Drugs Or Nuclear Weapons Allowed." Works for me.

-Sans Authoritas

bogie
May 1, 2008, 10:19 PM
Okay - we've got Texas, Idaho and Florida folks who

DO NOT GET IT.

Tequila Mockingbird
May 1, 2008, 10:56 PM
I would certainly assume that if someone goes to the trouble of posting a "no guns" sign, he's already considered the consequences of armed folks going somewhere else to do their shopping, so I'm not sure what good it does to go back and tell him that you took your business elsewhere. You think he's going to change his mind and take the sign down because he lost your business? It's a free country, and he's entitled to declare his place of business off limits to armed customers if he chooses to do so. Just because you believe you should be able to carry anywhere you want to doesn't mean everyone else has to go along with your wishes. That's not what freedom is all about...

The Tourist
May 1, 2008, 11:32 PM
If I'm allowed to preach for one moment, let me state that there will always be people opposing anything and everything you do.

I never got beat up in high school, in fact, no one ever tried. I carried a switchblade, and I was clearly crazy enough to use it.

There will always be consequences. I could have been arrested, or even challenged by some idiot who convinced himself that being angry was a better decision than being cut. I chose to live as I wanted.

But that's a choice only you can make. Additionally, you can always find an excuse to turn and avoid trouble. If you always make the easy turn to avoid trouble you'll find yourself making more "lefts" than a Nascar driver.

At my high school you got an additional three detentions for every one not served. My high school vice-principal was only too happy to notify me that I was then the clear record holder with over 285 days of unserved penalties. He also informed me that the only way I could fulfil my sentence was to repeat my senior year--a topic actually discussed by the graduating committee.

He told me in a calm, cold whisper that he was glad I was going so he never had to look at my face ever again.

Knowing at that moment that I would, in fact, graduate, I responded that he could then look at my ass, on my Harley, going to college. I actually think he wanted to smack me.

It did teach me one thing. Your allegiance is to no one if you cannot boldly defend the thoughts of your own heart. If a little sign disuades you from your enumerated rights, perhaps you should leave the gun in the car and do as you are told. You wouldn't want anyone mad at you, would you?

Tequila Mockingbird
May 1, 2008, 11:41 PM
If a little sign disuades you from your enumerated rights, perhaps you should leave the gun in the car and do as you are told.

Only problem is, you don't have a right to carry on someone else's property...

John828
May 1, 2008, 11:45 PM
I saw in another thread that county/rural signs were getting shot. Maybe some country folk need to come in to the city and "take care" of these here signs.

The Tourist
May 1, 2008, 11:52 PM
Only problem is, you don't have a right to carry on someone else's property...

Technically, this country belongs to the English and the Spanish. We took it. In the final analysis, we didn't like the terms of the deal.

I don't like pencil necks who erode my enumerated rights. I understand my dangers. I simply don't care.

Edit: That's not idle chatter. I was arrested in 1979 for a CCW on a pistol.

Tequila Mockingbird
May 2, 2008, 12:15 AM
I don't like pencil necks who erode my enumerated rights.

I guess I don't understand what enumerated right you think you have to carry a handgun on someone else's property when he has communicated to you that he doesn't allow it. Does your right to carry somehow trump his property rights? :confused:

The Tourist
May 2, 2008, 12:26 AM
Let me phrase it this way.

Today in the local paper was a story on the rounding up of the last of the Nazi war criminals. Since most of them would be in their 90's, many felt that the urgency had passed. After all, "it was a long time ago."

I'm finding the same view on our Revolutionary War soldiers. We speak in great praise of the WWII and Vietnam vets, but the events of the war in 1776 seem to just be a dusty old book.

That is, unless you had your head ripped off by a British musket ball.

I believe rights are like muscles. Forget to use them, and they atrophy.

When a merchant invites me into his store, he is telling me that my patronage and my money are needed and welcomed. When he insists on limiting my rights--under The Consitution, I might add--he is basically telling me to once again yoke myself to a system where "I say so" trumps not only my rights but my ability to redress and refusal.

He does have the right to have me arrested. Been there done that. The food is terrible.

I say, toss the Tory's tea into the harbor and practice saying "no" a little more often.

Tequila Mockingbird
May 2, 2008, 12:45 AM
Tourist,

I understand your point. The point I was trying to make is that the Constitution protects your rights vis a vis the government, and the enumerated rights in the Constitution are rights that the government may not infringe on. When you are invited to someone else's property, it's on the understanding that you will follow the rules that the property owner has laid down: no smoking, no profanity, no drinking, no firearms, whatever. All of these prohibitions might arguably run afoul of some constitutional right if they were exercised by the government, but a private property owner is within his rights to enforce any of them.

Sans Authoritas
May 2, 2008, 12:54 AM
Tequila Mockingbird wrote: The point I was trying to make is that the Constitution protects your rights vis a vis the government, and the enumerated rights in the Constitution are rights that the government may not infringe on.


From everything I've seen, the individuals who comprise the Federal government ignore the Constitution whenever they possibly can. Which is all the time. And they might as well, as the Constitution isn't going to fight back and do anything to them. No, it simply sits there. In fact, the Constitution is almost as effective at protecting your rights as words on a piece of parchment. : )

-Sans Authoritas

bogie
May 2, 2008, 01:02 AM
Well, some of us were hoping...

Instead, it appears as if this thread has also been taken over by the clueless chest thumpers.

hobgob
May 2, 2008, 01:04 AM
He does have the right to have me arrested. Been there done that. The food is terrible.


I think this thread is drifting! The point is that we shouldn't have to worry bout this at all, so talk to these businesses and let them know that you would like to shop there, but also tell them that your not going to unless they change policy. Then all of this "I'm a harda$$ and will carry anyway" is a moot point. We are trying to take THE HIGH ROAD here. I think most of us prefer t-shirt and jeans to striped jump suits.

.cheese.
May 2, 2008, 01:13 AM
here in Florida, if it isn't a prohibited place by law, this is my approach to dealing with the sign,

"oooh. A sign. How cute."

and I walk in.... armed.

mewachee
May 2, 2008, 01:29 AM
I like the original premise of this tread, and yes it has drifted a little. However, if I tell you that you can or cannot do something in my home and/or office, you need to respect me and/or leave if you disagree.

The Tourist
May 2, 2008, 01:37 AM
thread is drifting...let them know that you would like to shop there

The OP asks "what to do" and it's there that I find some of our answers a bit disingenuous.

We often talk about muggings and what we would do if caught in the crossfire of a bank hold-up.

After pages of that kind of discussion, we find that lots of us fear a little sign. Yikes, what if the tradesman used harsh language.

To me, taking the "high road" means also being honest in giving advice and a truthful observation. If you advise folks to "come out blazing" in defiance of a felon, but run scared back to your car to hide a handgun, then I have to question just what are our true opinions.

The enumerated rights are simply a declaration of rights under law for a common man in unpopular stances. If I have to couch my speech and conduct because of a "little sign," then I have to wonder if the Bill of Rights is actually still in use.

bogie
May 2, 2008, 01:38 AM
Okay... We got two clueless that are definitely from Florida. Who is ahead? The sunshine state, or the land of steers and...

Every dime you spend in a store that posts an insulting sign goes to pay to keep that sign up and visible.

Then the place a couple of doors down the block posts their own sign, telling you that they think that you're scum.

And you spend money there.

And before you know it, those signs are all over, reminding voters that "guns are dangerous, and shouldn't be allowed here."

Congratulations. You are facilitating your destruction.

Do you still feel good about it?

plexreticle
May 2, 2008, 01:44 AM
Well, some of us were hoping...

Instead, it appears as if this thread has also been taken over by the clueless chest thumpers.

I think showing some lackey manager your receipts from another store is pretty clueless. But if that tickles your fancy I say rock on.

hobgob
May 2, 2008, 01:47 AM
To me, taking the "high road" means also being honest in giving advice and a truthful observation. If you advise folks to "come out blazing" in defiance of a felon, but run scared back to your car to hide a handgun, then I have to question just what are our true opinions.
My true Opinion is that if you carry anyway into those places of business then you are not confronting the problem posted in this thread. Sure you can carry in these places and buy whatever you want. But in my state if your found in the act, thats a misdimeanor and can result in the revocation of a CHL. So This is why I agree with Bogie on this and the better course of action is to either respectfully attempt to change the managers mind about his policy, or take your business elsewhere. I am not afraid what of he is gonna say, but I do like having my CHL and would like to hold on to for a while.
p.s. i know concealed means concealed. I think we can all agree that most of us know how to conceal our firearms and can avoid detection.

bogie
May 2, 2008, 02:13 AM
Okay - How many of you are okay with being insulted by these signs? Because that's what they do.

How many of you want to see MORE of the signs, signs which teach folks who are fencesitters, and the younger generation, that guns are something to be avoided?

I do not feel like suffering fools kindly. You can beat your chests like semi-evolved primates all you want, and it does not change the world. All that changes the world is action and persuasion.

Give your money to those who insult you. Encourage others to do the same.

Sick. Why are you even present on this forum?

WayneConrad
May 2, 2008, 02:37 AM
bogie, I agree with you on the principle of this matter, but you're going off the rails. Those who disagree with you and I on this matter are not what you just said. They are much more our friends than are those who put up those signs. I think you should step back, relax, take a deep breath, and reconsider what you just said.

bogie
May 2, 2008, 02:49 AM
How many of these folks wish to see more of those signs?

I guess that they think that they're funny or something.

Prince Yamato
May 2, 2008, 02:52 AM
The thing is, in Texas, there's are like a hundred different "no firearms" signs that you can see around town, but only two that carry any legal weight (the 51% sign and the 30.06 sign). If I see any other signs, I just laugh. If I refused to give money to all antis, then my sister wouldn't get any Xmas gifts :D

bogie
May 2, 2008, 10:01 AM
And every time someone who is sitting on the fence on the issue sees one of those signs, it is reinforced that "guns are bad."

We've got those signs here in Missouri - not the same format, for the pedantic nitpickers, but the same intent. And we've got all sorts of "non-legal" formats.

I don't spend money there.

And I tell them why.

And you know something? All you folks who think you are being smart and tricky?

In four years, the signs which you see as "non-legal" may get voted into legality.

And four years after that, they may give the law some teeth.

And four years after that they may decide to not allow you to carry outside your house - oh, you've got your permit, but what good is it?

Talking to merchants is the ULTIMATE grass roots effort.

But hey, I guess it's just silly. Maybe I should join the ranks of the "concealed is concealed" scofflaws.

divemedic
May 2, 2008, 10:23 AM
the facts:

boycotts don't work. Disney has a new boycott announced against them on an almost weekly basis. They don't care. Publix supermarkets have lobbied, campaigned, and even filed lawsuits to ban firearms.

I ignore the signs. I am not clueless, and "I get it"- "it" being what you are trying to sell. I just think you are misguided. The signs carry no legal weight, and I don't have to obey them, so I don't.

BTW- as far as the "property rights" argument- that horse has been beaten many times over the last few weeks. For a summary of what the courts have ruled on this, click here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4437842&postcount=84).

bogie
May 2, 2008, 11:44 AM
Boycotts DO work.

Disney is just not worried about Bubba's Back Country Snake Handlers getting all offended that they allow them homasekshuals on the property...

But I'm not even TALKING about using the "B" word. And property rights has nothing to do with it either.

Just simply talk to the people who own/manage the places. Don't spend money there. Make sure the owners/manager know why they don't have your business.

Are there alternatives to Publix? I'd assume so. I know there are alternatives to the local Schnucks chain here in the midwest.

And I made sure that the store's management knew that they'd lost a customer. In several stores.

Maybe the signs come down. But if you do NOTHING but smirk and walk past the signs, they stay up. Guaranteed. And since other business owners will see them, more will go up.

Would you go in a store that had a "No Veterans Allowed" sign?

What about one that says "No Coloreds" - There are probably still a few of them out there.

Every dime you spend with the people encourages them to think that their marketing is working. And they're not psychic. If you do NOT talk to them, they assume that you don't have a problem with their insulting and bigoted signage.

Your dollars spent in these places will lead to more anti-gun attitude, and anti-gun legislation.

The Tourist
May 2, 2008, 11:53 AM
My true Opinion is that if you carry anyway into those places of business then you are not confronting the problem

I agree. My comment in that post was simply to state let's get real and tell people what we would actually do.

How many threads here have you read about bravery and daring-do? And now how many posts have you read about returning to your car and stashing the pistol, or doing a boycott. (Which is a good idea, by the way, especially now.)

My Dad had a saying on things like this. He would confront the guy and call him a "rough, tough cream puff."

I would rather know what people actually did, not what they opine. If we are going to keep our enumerated rights (especially if the Democrats secure the White House) I'd like to know with whom I stand.

jimbob86
May 2, 2008, 12:11 PM
boycotts don't work.

They DO work, Sometimes.....

In the Omaha area, boycotts, letters/phonecalls/e-mails and "No Guns=No Money" cards have been effective at Appleby's, Famous Dave's BBQ, Valentino's Pizza, and others. No Frills Supermarkets have not taken their signs down..... yet. We are working on it...........

bdickens
May 2, 2008, 02:13 PM
For my first post, I'm going to state the same thing I said on the Texas CHL Forum http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/index.php:

I don't know what the law is in other States, so this is Texas-specific.

After much internal debate, I have decided that I am going to institute the following personal policy:

Compliant signs I am of course going to obey. I am going to carry right past signs that are obviously non-compliant (gunbusters, "no weapons allowed, etc)". The near-compliant signs I am going to take on a case-by case basis.

Here's why:

Compliant signs are obvious. I obey the law.

The obviously non-compliant sign does not apply to me. It clearly does not meet the requirements of the law and therefore does not constitute proper notice. Now, I know what you're going to say: "forget them! I'm not going to give my hard-earned money to anti-gun bigots." Is the business bigoted against gun owners? How do you know? The sign? Not necessarily. Most business owners and managers are sheeple like everybody else. They are not informed on the issue and haven't given five seconds worth of thought to the Second Amendment or RKBA. All they know about guns is the propaganda they are spoon-fed by the mass media. They are probably either supplied their "no guns" signs by their corporate masters or they were looking around the office supply and picked them up along with the "no soliciting" and "no food and drinks" signs. And put the "no guns" signs up with just as much thought as the others.

All I want to do right now is get a pair of shoes or something. Now is not the time to educate the store owner on RKBA. Nor do I have the energy to devote to ferreting out every possible source of anti-gun bigotry in the Houston area. If the business is truly prejudiced against me, then they can just expend a little effort to do the research so they can give me the proper notice. There is no secret about what the requirements are. If they really cared that much, they'd put up the proper sign.

The near-compliant signs are a possible sticky point. On one hand, the law is the law and the requirements are right there in black and white. Block letters. Contrasting colors. One inch high. Etc. On the other hand, I'm not going to go around with a ruler and say to myself "well, the letters ore only 15/16" high, I'm going through" That's not the hill I'm willing to die on.

The typewritten sheet that has the correct wording on it I'll blow by if its somewhere I want or need to be. Otherwise, I'll take my money somewhere else and probably let them know about it, too. Taco Cabana and their ilk are a special case. Even though they have an obviously non-compliant sign with 1/2" letters, their position has been made well-known so I'm going to respect their wishes and take my legally owned and legally carried defensive sidearm, and my money, elsewhere. And, I'm going to write them about it too.

The Tourist
May 2, 2008, 02:21 PM
the law is the law

Wisconsin has no motorcycle helmet law. We did at one time.

That is thanks to the 10,000 bikers who rode helmetless down East Washington Avenue and supported both the WBBA and ABATE.

Ultimately, you get the government you deserve.

Sage of Seattle
May 2, 2008, 02:22 PM
Welcome to THR, Byron! :)

bogie
May 2, 2008, 02:53 PM
Is the business bigoted against gun owners? How do you know? The sign? Not necessarily. Most business owners and managers are sheeple like everybody else. They are not informed on the issue and haven't given five seconds worth of thought to the Second Amendment or RKBA. All they know about guns is the propaganda they are spoon-fed by the mass media. They are probably either supplied their "no guns" signs by their corporate masters or they were looking around the office supply and picked them up along with the "no soliciting" and "no food and drinks" signs. And put the "no guns" signs up with just as much thought as the others.

All I want to do right now is get a pair of shoes or something. Now is not the time to educate the store owner on RKBA.

Actually, this is precisely the situation where you SHOULD say something.

"Hey, Bob... I've been buying shoes here for the past 20 years. Why don't you want me as a customer?"

That -will- get some thought.

You are describing someone who is essentially sitting on the fence on the issue, and they've put up the sign because they think that it makes their business safer. They think they've done a good thing. And after several customers notice it, and talk to the management, they will have a different impression.

This has worked successfully in some areas. It's worked fairly well in some places in Missouri. And I remember a few years back when TFL members all took it upon themselves to e-mail Applebee's management...Or maybe it was THR, but I don't think we could galvanize enough of a response these days.

It's like you guys just don't care. Maybe you think we've "won" or something...

McCall911
May 2, 2008, 08:12 PM
Jokes aside:

I think this is the most important part of what bogie has said:
And I tell them why.



It's not enough to complain "Well, I just won't do business there anymore." You need to tell the management why you're not doing business there, directly. This is what makes activism work, and work well: As they say, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Great thread, bogie

romeo212000
May 2, 2008, 11:24 PM
In Oklahoma those signs dont mean jack. The only thing they can do is ask you to leave at which point you have to but there are no legal ramifications.

mgregg85
May 2, 2008, 11:30 PM
Same deal for Michigan, I walk right past any of those signs.

bogie
May 2, 2008, 11:47 PM
You know, maybe we should encourage folks to put up MORE of those signs, since they don't seem to have any effect on most of you, and soccer mommies seem to like them. That way, in 10 years or so, when the next generation or so gets old enough to vote, they can make damn sure that nobody is allowed to even own one of those dangerous guns.

divemedic
May 3, 2008, 12:03 AM
Hyperbole
Hy*per"bo*le\, n. [L., fr. Gr?, prop., an overshooting, excess, fr. Gr. ? to throw over or beyond; "ype`r over + ? to throw. See Hyper-, Parable, and cf. Hyperbola.] (Rhet.) A figure of speech in which the expression is an evident exaggeration of the meaning intended to be conveyed, or by which things are represented as much greater or less, better or worse, than they really are; a statement exaggerated fancifully, through excitement, or for effect.

bogie
May 3, 2008, 12:32 AM
One store puts one up. It doesn't come down. Another store puts one up. Then another.

And a generation of children are raised in that area to know, with constant reinforcement, that guns are bad.

How is that hype?

neededausername
May 3, 2008, 01:15 AM
If you are ever in Arkansas please come by my business. If you like sweets message me and I'll tell you were I work. When I see someone who is carrying a gun responsibly I usually offer them some stuff for free. If you have a CCW in my store you aren't just protecting yourself, but me, my employees, and the store.

I don't have my CCW yet, or a gun that I would CCW, but I'm learning to shoot with my .22LR and once I get my CCW gun I'll be wearing it. It's the only thing for a responsible manager to do.

aguyindallas
May 3, 2008, 01:22 AM
Well...since this is Texas and a "no guns" sign is not a "legal tool"...I pretend like it doesnt exist and go about my business as a licensed CHL holder in my state. If its a legal sign, I do my best to NOT do business there and of course at the very least, return to the car to leave behind my gun.

bogie
May 3, 2008, 04:22 AM
So far Texas is leading the pack... Or trailing it, depending on how you look at it...

Do y'all have ANYONE with a clue in that state?

divemedic
May 3, 2008, 10:00 AM
Telling people they are clueless because they don't agree with you is not very high road.

NeoSpud
May 3, 2008, 01:28 PM
Telling people they are clueless because they don't agree with you is not very high road.

Agreed. Bogie- just because we don't think that your plan is worthwhile or effective doesn't mean we don't "get it." Frankly, I think it's ridiculous to imagine that CCWers have the clout to waive receipts and change business owner's opinions. I get it. I just think it's ineffective and unnecessary. I know a few business owners who post signs like that to prevent them from being sued in case of a robbery gone bad (well, really just to say that they tried to keep the guns off their property, so that a lawsuit will go their way...), so they wouldn't give a hoot about losing one or two customers if it keeps them in business. You've completely neglected to think through the store owners motivations for having the sign; not everyone who puts up one of those signs is anti-gun...

Do you have any actual evidence that a non-binding sign will cause the destruction of gun ownership? You say that it'll just somehow spontaneously spread from store to store (please explain HOW this will happen), then it will infect the next generation through "reinforcement" (exactly how?? Any proof that this trend exists or can exist? The whole notion of reinforcement seems impossible, as there is no positive or negative reinforcing stimulus involved. Jumping from guns=prohibited to guns=bad is a large theoretical movement, not supported by any psychological evidence of which I am aware).

plexreticle
May 3, 2008, 01:40 PM
So far Texas is leading the pack... Or trailing it, depending on how you look at it...

Do y'all have ANYONE with a clue in that state?

Bogie seems to have a case of everybody is wrong except for me.

Complaining to the owner about every stupid sign is like chasing someone down and confronting them about a stupid Hillery '08 bumper sticker. If you have the time and energy good for you. Personally I think it's a stupid waste of time.

bogie
May 3, 2008, 03:53 PM
So, you guys don't feel insulted by those signs?

Every infringement adds up.

And it it is very true that when one business sees another doing something, they will copy. If they think that putting up the signs gets/keeps business, and gun owners don't tell them anything, they'll enthusiastically do it. And they are NOT psychic.

Grass-roots efforts can be VERY effective. And call-in/e-mail campaigns with larger business have worked very well in the past. Individuals have also had intelligent chats with managers and the signs have come down. Sometimes it just takes one effort. I've done it a couple of times. It's easy.

"Why don't you want me as a customer?"

Of course, lately, on this forum, if you suggest that a bunch of folks get together an e-mail the corporate leadership of S-Mart about how one or two of their stores have posted "no guns" signs, you're almost guaranteeing that someone will post "it isn't very high road to send e-mails to the management" and "it's their property rights" and somesuch. Which basically guarantees that several other folks will get on the dang thread and agree. What side of the issue are some folks on?

About the only intelligent thing some of you guys have managed is keeping your booger flicker off your boomstick's trigger as you smirk your way past the signage so that you can support, with your hard-earned money, the same business which insults you. You think you're getting away with something? Is that it?

Say these merchants play copycat with each other - If Joe's BBQ has a gunbusters sign on their door, then Frank's Barbershop is gonna think that they need one. Before you know it, half your town is "being safe."

And then one of your state reps sneaks something into some last-minute knee jerk crime bill, making it a five-year felony to take a gun past ANY "no guns" sign. You don't think that can't happen? This is the United States - screwed up legislation happens all the time. Will you be smirking then? Every time you carry past one of those "useless" signs, you'll be chancing five years as Bubba's cellmate, and permanent loss of all your rights as a citizen.

You can be active today, or you can play catch-up down the road.

And it is ALL about public perception. When 10 year old kids see those "no guns" signs, it is reinforced in them that "gun are not something we want around here." And now someone will say that his kids know what the signs really mean - fine. Maybe not your kids, but then you ain't the daddy of the rest of the world's brats.

In eight years, those kids will be old enough to vote. And they will know, because they've been shown every day as they've walked in the supermarket, the hardware store, the local gas station, whatever, that guns = we don't want them around here.

Those signs say "We don't want your type." And you're letting them do it.

You are letting someone else erode your rights. WITHOUT ACTING TO SLOW IT OR PREVENT IT.

Sad.

And stupid.

Foolish.

Idiotic.

Maybe you're smart, but your behavior just doesn't cut it. And doesn't prove it.

The managers and store owners are not psychic. And most of them are not malevolent "anti-gun" folks either. They just think that they are being safe. And it takes a couple of minutes of polite chat to maybe convince them otherwise.

Then again, maybe that's too hard for some folks to handle. You'd rather smirk, and sneak in, and support the people who are insulting you, and later, go home and congratulate yourself on getting away with something.

Sigh.

It's not that hard. It requires a small amount of effort. Tell the owners/management why you are offended by their signs, and why you cannot shop there. Sometimes the sign comes down. Not every time. Can't win every skirmish.

But when you don't do anything, you are guaranteeing a loss.

Which makes you a loser. An apathetic loser.

Next time you mentally smirk, and walk past one of those insulting signs, to spend your money to support the same business that insults you, maybe you'll think about this. Maybe you'll go find the manager. Maybe you'll turn around, and shop at a store that wants your business. Those are grass-roots steps in winning.

Or maybe you'll just continue to be a loser.

NeoSpud
May 3, 2008, 06:15 PM
I'm still waiting for a reason to believe that a sign will make kids become anti-gun. No psychological studies of which I am aware will ever make that claim.

No smoking signs don't appear to be the reason that young adults don't smoke as much as they used to.

Perhaps you should focus on why store owners feel compelled to put up these signs (read: our overly litigious culture, fear of lawsuits).

Finally, I really don't appreciate being called a "loser" and "idiotic." Please respect my opinion enough to be civil.

bogie
May 3, 2008, 06:29 PM
Are you a loser? Are you forfeiting without even trying to do anything? Because if you are, you sure ain't a winner.

This isn't your university debate society. I'm not aware of any psychological studies about kids becoming anti-gun, and I'm not going to conduct one, or go spend hours searching for one.

However, virtually any parent, or more mature adult, will realize that when children see something, it makes an impression. They see something a lot, it makes more of an impression. If Jen and I were to allow the nine-year-old-bundle-of-caffeinated-energy to watch MTV daily, he'd be quite likely to start wearing a hat sideways, with his pants down around his knees. Why? Because "that's what everyone is doing." Why? Because that is the impression he would have received from repeated images in the media.

You are permitting anti-gun "education" to happen. In fact, if you spend money in the places that post the signs, you are ENCOURAGING it.

And if you are encouraging something on one hand, while on the other you are saying that you don't want it to happen, that, my friend, is idiotic.

I'm not calling you an idiot. This is pretty much the same as me yelling "Hey, idiot!" in a crowd, and you're the guy who turned around.

Through inaction, gun owners who spend money in these establishments are causing their own downfall. And it seems that some folks feel mighty proud about it.

Sigh...

NeoSpud
May 3, 2008, 06:51 PM
Are you a loser? Are you forfeiting without even trying to do anything? Because if you are, you sure ain't a winner.
Regardless of how I choose to pick my battles, I will do my best to be civil and respectful on this forum, whose rules I did not write and thus should obey to the best of my ability. That's all I request.

This isn't your university debate society. I'm not aware of any psychological studies about kids becoming anti-gun, and I'm not going to conduct one, or go spend hours searching for one.
In that case, please do not use terms like "reinforcement" without knowing what they mean, or make claims that cannot be verified. That kind of emotional folk-psych only holds us back.


However, virtually any parent, or more mature adult, will realize that when children see something, it makes an impression. They see something a lot, it makes more of an impression. If Jen and I were to allow the nine-year-old-bundle-of-caffeinated-energy to watch MTV daily, he'd be quite likely to start wearing a hat sideways, with his pants down around his knees. Why? Because "that's what everyone is doing." Why? Because that is the impression he would have received from repeated images to the media.
I'm very aware of peer, media, and other outside influences on child development. I think that you misunderstand children's motivations towards emulating these TV influences, and don't see why that MTV is not an equivalent to no-guns-here signs. There's nothing attractive, imitable, or desirable about the signs. Why would their influence trump any other gun-related perception he's been exposed to? From the dreaded mass media and Hollywood, guns are portrayed as cool and dangerous, two VERY powerful influences to children.


You are permitting anti-gun "education" to happen. In fact, if you spend money in the places that post the signs, you are ENCOURAGING it.

And if you are encouraging something on one hand, while on the other you are saying that you don't want it to happen, that, my friend, is idiotic.
I suppose that the same could be said if I vote (go into a federal building, where I can't carry), spend money (can't carry into a bank here), or send snail mail (can't carry in the post office either). That's not encouragement. The world is not so black-and-white.


I'm not calling you an idiot. This is pretty much the same as me yelling "Hey, idiot!" in a crowd, and you're the guy who turned around.
Or perhaps I was the one offended that you'd be shouting "Hey, idiot!" in a place where that kind of activity is specifically discouraged.

Through inaction, gun owners who spend money in these establishments are causing their own downfall. And it seems that some folks feel mighty proud about it.
I can only wonder whether you send snail mail, visit the bank, or ever go into federal buildings.

bogie
May 3, 2008, 07:12 PM
Am I supposed to get in an argument over the meaning of the word "reinforcement" now?

(note to readers: This is typical derailment strategy, generally used by folks who are used to "spirited debates" in their college's student center. Bring up something that is vaguely and peripherally related to the matter at hand, and shift discussion to it.)

Remember, some of us "gun nut yokels" have been to college out here in "fly over country," and while they may not have been Harvard, Yale or Berkeley, they do tend to provide adequate instruction.

"Folk-psych?" Are you studying social work or something? When kids are exposed to something, they pick it up. If they are exposed repeatedly, with no instruction against something, they are more likely to pick something up... The fructose-fueled demonboy -knows- that he can go shooting. And that he can play with shooting games. And he knows that mimicking thug behavior or talking/acting about shooting people is forbidden. It's bad. Not polite. Why? Teaching.

Oh, and about about the USPS, my bank (which doesn't have a problem with concealed carry...), and having been educated, I know there's a stipulation about federal buildings and such. That's a major thing to be dealt with in the future.

I choose to pick my battles. Easy battles. Battles that I can win.

And I -can- convince a small business owner, or even some franchise managers, that they are incorrect in assuming that their "safety" sign is actually providing the safety they desire, and may in fact do the opposite. While at the same time driving off the very kind of customers they wish to attract, and keep.

I've done it.

What have you done?

Besides lose? And brag about losing?

NeoSpud
May 3, 2008, 07:50 PM
You know, Bogie, I choose to pick my battles as well. I posit that yours is an ineffective one and not worth the time, which would be better spent contacting our elected representatives. There just isn't any reason to believe that no-gun posters influence kids any more than no-smoking posters, the influence of which is nominal and completely dominated by more salient and powerful factors, such as parental instruction or peer pressure. I can't put it any more clearly than that. There's just no actual support for your claim, and you straightforwardly said that you would not look for any. I really like a good discussion, but you're just being insulting. I don't visit THR to be called a "loser," and from this example of how you respond to criticism, I just can't imagine that you've persuaded a single store owner to change his or her ways.

What have you done?

Besides lose? And brag about losing?
It's clear that you don't respect anyone's opinion other than your own. I'm done here.

Bye.

bdickens
May 3, 2008, 11:13 PM
Bogie:

What do you not understand? The Texas Legislature intended for CHL holders to be able carry just about everywhere. Because we believe in property rights, too, they placed a mechanism in place for business owners to bar lawful carry on their premesis. In order to do so, they must meet very specific criteria for giving proper notice. The law is no secret. True bigots like AMC theaters and Verizon Wireless Theater post the proper sign. People who haven't given five second's thought to RKBA throw some bogus sign up because they see it and think it might be a good sign to have up. There are even some businesses who throw up a "gunbusters" sign knowing it doesn't mean anything to CHLs.

You are wasting far too much energy looking for being surrounded by the enemy. You sleep with one eye open and a shotgun in your hand? Maybe its time for you to get some land in Montanna, circle it with concertina wire and start stockpiling stuff!

Oh, and by the way, Texas is leading the pack. We have one of the most liberal Concealed Carry laws in the country.

Double Naught Spy
May 3, 2008, 11:23 PM
Right, whenever I see a non- binding no guns sign in Texas, I just smile and laugh because it is nothing but a joke to me and other folks who have CHLs. Such signs don't mean a thing. I see very few binding signs and I don't see them on small businesses, just big chains/franchises where the manager doesn't have an option on the sign anyway.

bogie
May 4, 2008, 12:50 AM
Question for you smiling fearless hard-core Texans...

If you're traveling out of state, and you are about to walk into a motel or restaurant, and they've got a sign on the door that says:

"Texans Not Welcome"

Well, do you still go in, smile, and spend your money with the people? After all, that sign probably doesn't have any legal teeth to it...

Grass-roots activity has generally proven the most effective with pro-gun stuff. Except for THR it seems...

I'm disappointed.

Double Naught Spy
May 4, 2008, 08:53 AM
bogie, you said you like to pick the easy battles to win. Good for you taking the easy way out. I don't sweat the small stuff.

As for where I spend my money, I spend it where I get what best supports me.

I am fairly certain you do that as well. Unless you are some sort of weird self reliant guy who doesn't use commercial products, then you are patronizing anti-gun businesses. You may be using a computer made by an anti-gun company, driving a similar vehicle, using an anti-gun internet provider, buying newspapers from anti-gun media, etc.

So get off your high horse that we don't pick the fights you pick. You are just fooling yourself that you are doing a better job than the rest of us who don't share your easy battles.

Blackbeard
May 4, 2008, 09:07 AM
Normally I would recommend combatting this prejudice by taking a lesson from Martin Luther King, Jr. Practice civil disobedience and nonviolent resistance. Our conundrum is that if we are civilly disobedient, it means we are armed. It's hard to argue that armed people are practicing nonviolent resistance, even though we are. Maybe we need to get the phrase "armed nonviolence" into the public's lexicon.

woof
May 4, 2008, 09:20 AM
Sigh. I hate to get into dustups like this but have to say bogie is right about at least one thing - there can be little doubt that when kids see signs saying no guns they at least subliminally try to make sense of that. If they are from a gun family they might think - I wonder why they don't like guns? I like guns. But if they are not used to guns and already impacted by societal anti-gun sentiment - I think it obviousy serves to reinforce the guns are bad view. To ask if there are any university studies on that phenomenon exactly is to obfuscate. There are plenty of studies on the psychological impacts of signs. Do you really doubt that racial bias was being "reinforced" back when signs were common that said - no colored?

coat4gun
May 4, 2008, 10:19 AM
It seems the only place I see them in PA is at gun shows... I find that very ironic.

hceptj
May 4, 2008, 10:50 AM
I personally handle the situation about the same as you do and I have for a long time. How I respond just depends on the situation. If I'm in a hurry and have to be somewhere, then I'll make a mental note and send an email later on or make a phone call. If I'm not in a hurry I take time to speak to a manager or owner.

I never tell the store owner/manager that they have a sign that isn't legal. I don't want them to change it to a legal one and ruin my fellow Texas CHL holders visits. If they have a legal sign, then I'll still confront them about it. Other than the already mentioned Taco Cabana type of establishments where its already been attempted.

What I do is simply ask them 1) why they have a "no guns allowed" sign posted, 2) why they don't want my business and 3) how are they going to protect me while I'm on their property. Most of the time its simply corporate policy. Some people are just anti's and will always be that way. Often times the small businesses I talk to say the sign was on there when they leased the space & they just never took it down. Once in a long while it actual results in someone taking a scraper to the sign and removing it...:)

After reading this thread I'm confused about one thing though...why all the insults and name calling to fellow gun enthusiasts?

If your friends, family or relatives don't agree with you about something, do you insult them and call them names? I'm sure you don't, so why do it on here? Just makes you look immature and childish...which in turn makes all of your arguments lose weight and value.

bdickens
May 4, 2008, 10:51 AM
Bogie, I outlined the thought process behind my decision to do as I do. Apparently, there are others who think the same way. If you can't understand such simple reasoning, then I can't help you. Personally, I don't have the energy to devote to being the Second Amendment Thought Police.

akodo
May 4, 2008, 02:18 PM
Tequila Mockingbird writes
I understand your point. The point I was trying to make is that the Constitution protects your rights vis a vis the government, and the enumerated rights in the Constitution are rights that the government may not infringe on. When you are invited to someone else's property, it's on the understanding that you will follow the rules that the property owner has laid down: no smoking, no profanity, no drinking, no firearms, whatever. All of these prohibitions might arguably run afoul of some constitutional right if they were exercised by the government, but a private property owner is within his rights to enforce any of them.

This is half correct. Those rules function just fine with respect to a person's dwelling.

However, a business is different. A business isn't allowed to hang out a sign that says "no coloreds" or "Catholics ONLY" for customers, or to place similar restrictions who they decide to hire or not.

Further, they are required to have insurance, x amount of fire extinguishers, exit signs, smoke detectors, etc etc.

If not, the 'punishment' is revocation of the business licence. I think in addition to all the other demands, to keep your business licence, one should also not be allowed to bar legal law abiding gun carrying citizens from entering armed, as long as they aren't causing a disturbance.

Now, the whole situation isn't perfect. In a libritarian ideal, there would be no business licence, and a business would be free to have no smoke detectors and ban methodists and anyone who has a last name starting with V, and anyone who has a handgun or who had premarital sex.

But that isn't where we are now. If we are going to have business lisences at all, and we are going to tie those lisences to safety AND tolerance of consitutionally protected differences, then we need to do the same for gun rights and gun owners as well.

mljdeckard
May 4, 2008, 02:27 PM
In Utah, they have no force of law, and I therefore ignore them. Only the state legislature may define where guns are or are not allowed. A business may refuse service to anyone, but if you refuse to leave, you are only guilty of trespassing.

I have never heard no said a word about carrying in any of these places.

Geno
May 4, 2008, 02:45 PM
In Michigan, only pistol-free zones are illegal. Other than those areas, I carry, even if there is a sign. The worst that can happen, if they discover the firearm, is to request that I leave. I cannot be arrested for trespass, unless I refuse to leave.

bogie
May 4, 2008, 03:03 PM
Guys, could we put this one to bed, and revisit it at...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=361094

Let's see just how many of you are doing nothing.

Because I'm not feeling all that great about our population here. Are you expecting someone else to make those signs come down? Let's see if that "someone else" exists...

Sabah Alev
May 5, 2008, 12:00 AM
anyone else want to be the person about to walk into said store with the sign and see a bunch of masked men with illegal assault rifles. and then stand there as the men look at the sigh and turn to one another and say:
"oh! no guns! crap. looks like we need to find another place to go..back to the car"

i would like to see that.

Sage of Seattle
May 5, 2008, 02:51 AM
You mean, something like this?

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=77728&d=1209966599

scurtis_34471
May 5, 2008, 10:50 AM
If I am at home in Florida, I ignore the signs because they have no legal weight. If I am travelling, I make sure I follow the law in whatever state I'm in. If the sign has no legal weight, I ignore it.

Robert Hairless
May 5, 2008, 11:30 AM
Normally I would recommend combatting this prejudice by taking a lesson from Martin Luther King, Jr. Practice civil disobedience and nonviolent resistance. Our conundrum is that if we are civilly disobedient, it means we are armed. It's hard to argue that armed people are practicing nonviolent resistance, even though we are. Maybe we need to get the phrase "armed nonviolence" into the public's lexicon.

Let's form a subcommittee to study the issue and make recommendations that we can debate at our leisure. We don't want to do anything too quickly. These are weighty matters that need thoughtful discussion.

The committee should take at least a year to study the situation fully. Two or three years would be even better because it would allow greater depth. Perhaps it could issue its report in time for the 2012 elections.

Then the committee of the whole can deliberate with full knowledge of the situation.

I propose that the subcommitte be named the Deliberative Emergency Action Committee. That name communicates the proper sense of urgency.

In the meantime what can it hurt to support the businesses who want to use our money to prevent us from owning firearms. They can't really be serious. It's our right.

If Rosa Parks had been a gun owner there would have been no civil rights movement. It took courage not to sit in the back of the bus. We don't do courage real well and don't enjoy spending time, energy, or money. But, my oh my, we surely do talk. :)

divemedic
May 5, 2008, 02:30 PM
Actually, Rosa parks ignored the signs and sat anyway. If she had followed your plan, she would have gotten off the bus, refused to ride it, and then she would have sent a letter to the bus driver explaining why.

THAT would have shown 'em.

bogie
May 5, 2008, 02:33 PM
If she'd followed your plan, she would have tried to "pass," possibly with aid of a few layers of makeup, and then sat in the front of the bus, with nobody aware otherwise...

She DID something, and she did it so people would see it.

You, sir, are proudly and vocally doing NOTHING.

divemedic
May 5, 2008, 02:42 PM
Nothing? I am exercising MY RIGHTS without getting in people's face about it and shrilly whining like some pre-pubescent child.

bogie
May 5, 2008, 03:25 PM
Nothing.

The store owners are not psychic.

As you sneak past them, they are not subliminally getting the message.

Instead, they think that they've increased safety.

And you have done NOTHING to alter that.

And a portion of your money is helping them keep that sign up.

divemedic
May 5, 2008, 04:35 PM
Boycott away.

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=15

I hope you don't patronize or work for any one on that page.

bogie
May 5, 2008, 04:53 PM
I can post a link too...

BTW, if you are "boycotting" and the store's owner/management doesn't know about it, it doesn't count.

Check this out - this is how it is supposed to work.

http://www.missouricarry.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21166&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Art Eatman
May 5, 2008, 08:11 PM
Sheesh! I get done with three days on the Superslab and come here to find this stuff?

Yuck.

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