Question for Marines; Active, Former, Ret'd, etc.


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M47 Dragon
May 1, 2008, 08:42 PM
First off, Semper Fi and thanks for your service!

I was just going through a box of old stuff and found my USMC Marksmanship and Data Book from 17 years ago in boot camp. I had a good time looking through it, seeing how I was able to shoot, the PMI comments, etc.

Anyway, there are pages for note taking in the back of the data book and there were several pages full of my own handwritten notes as dictated by the PMI. There were the rules of gun safety as well as some general rules. One of the general rules caught my eye: Never let the interest in your weapon become a conversation piece.

Funny thing is, all these years later I remember thinking at the time I wrote that "***?"

Anybody know why that was/is a general rule about firearms as given by the Corps? Is it a Marine Corps specific thing?

Thanks,
Semper Fi!

Brad

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siglite
May 1, 2008, 08:49 PM
I went in around '89, and I don't recall anything like that. I have no idea where that came from.

Winchester 73
May 1, 2008, 09:19 PM
Both my older brothers were Marines,(1940-1946) and (1946-1949)and neither,TMK,had any general rule that you are speaking of about firearms.
Semper Fidelis.

hddeluxe
May 1, 2008, 09:32 PM
I retired after 26 years in 1992 and I don't recall anything like that. However, I can say that PMIs had their own little world and some of the things I saw and heard on the range over the years was a little strange to say the least. But that is what makes the Corps so unique. Semper Fi

cog099
May 1, 2008, 10:05 PM
I went through Marine Basic Training and the School of Infantry 9yrs
ago. I don't recall any rule of that sort.
There are situations in which that rule could make sense. For instance, if you are standing sentry duty, or as is common now days, patrolling around civilians, it would be wise not to respond to comments regarding your weapon.


Semper Fi

M47 Dragon
May 1, 2008, 10:13 PM
Thanks for the responses!

You know, the more I read through those notes... and the section is subtitled "Common Sense" - I think what the PMI meant was not to chit chat about the weapon while on the firing line... not like we were able to shoot the breeze with the recruits next to us anyway. For many it was the first firearm they had handled, 99.9% of us had never touched the M16A2 before so maybe they were just warning against becoming "fascinated" by the rifle and talking about it.

Thanks guys!

Semper Fi!

M47 Dragon
May 1, 2008, 10:15 PM
...or as is common now days, patrolling around civilians, it would be wise not to respond to comments regarding your weapon.

Good point. That could well have been what he meant also.

BruceRDucer
May 1, 2008, 10:16 PM
/

There were RULES in training?:uhoh:

I'll tell you this. When I went through it in 1967, I NEVER, EVER even saw a recruit with a pencil, pen, or paper at the rifle or pistol range. :what: If there was writing, we were so dead tired or beaten too black and blue to remember.

I believe we were ordered to write a letter home once a week, but that's about all the writing suggested. I did earn an Expert badge though, proud of that. And at the .45 range, I shot so well the instructor asked if I'd had training before, and I have never even shot a pistol before; but notes are something I've no memory of. Nice that you found yours though M47 Dragon!

/

M47 Dragon
May 1, 2008, 10:22 PM
I'll tell you this. When I went through it in 1967, I NEVER, EVER even saw a recruit with a pencil, pen, or paper at the rifle or pistol range

Really? Didn't have one of these?

http://www.nicolausassociates.com/images/USMC-Rifle-Marksmanship-Data-Book.jpg

Mine was only for the M16A2, but other than that, looked exactly the same.

You didn't have to call shots and keep a record of zeroing the rifle? A record of windage and elevation changes for the different distances?

siglite
May 1, 2008, 10:52 PM
^^ I certainly remember my logbook. It's probably still around somewhere.

davepool
May 1, 2008, 11:04 PM
I was at Edson Range in 1971 and yea i had one of those,have no idea what happened to it. Mine was for the M-14 .We were one of the last platoons to carry the M-14 through boot camp, as we were preparing to graduate from MCRD san diego the new recruits were carrying the M-16s, i remember the DIs bitching cause they were going to have to teach a new style of drill with that "plastic piece of s**t"

Once a Marine ,always a Marine

USMC 1975
May 2, 2008, 06:31 AM
This is my rifle, this is my gun. This is for shooting and this is for fun.

And of course there were many other little gems I can remember my DI saying but cannot be repeated in a public forum. :)

I do not remember the general rule you mentioned though as it pertained to our weapons.

Chris

1911Tuner
May 2, 2008, 07:47 AM
Nothing really that well-defined, but just a directive to provide generalized, non-specific answers to curious questions pertaining to equipment, strategies, tactics, standing orders, etc. More like a
"Need to know" thing. If they don't need to know, don't go into any more detail than necessary to keep from insulting somebody...but if they push...Insult away if necessary.

Example:

"How do ya'll like the M16?"

"Fine weapon, sir. None better."

"Tell me about it"

"Shoulder- fired, gas operated, selective-fire weapon. 5.56mm"

"Well...How does it work."

I'm not sure, sir. I only load it and fire it and clean it. The technical stuff is up to the unit armorer....sir."

XDKingslayer
May 2, 2008, 08:52 AM
I remember the book. I remember the string attached to it tied to an 8 penny nail used to adjust the front site. Heck, I even remember the BZO of my weapon in boot camp (but no other M16 I was issued...).

But I DO NOT remember that being in the book.

doc2rn
May 2, 2008, 09:40 AM
Those are now kept by the LT of your company, and are used as a guage in promotions. I qualled (even though I was a doc) on the M16A2, SAW, 7.62 air cooled, and M9. I remember LT telling me I missed my calling as I got the highest score on all of them in the platoon.

siglite
May 2, 2008, 10:24 AM
I think you Docs are the only squids I ever respected :D

Devil Docs are HARD CHARGERS man. Hoorah.

BruceRDucer
May 2, 2008, 10:28 AM
M47 Dragon, I probably did have one; but do I "remember" it? Lordy no.:uhoh: We were shooting the venerable ... M-14.

But, Let me ask you this; Do you remember the beatings you got from your Platoon Commander and Drill Instructors at the Rifle Range? :)

(heh heh! Watch me get'im on this one!):what:

phonesysphonesys
May 2, 2008, 11:03 AM
I never heard of such a rule or saying and I was a marksmansip instructor. I still have my range book and all of my dope for my M1 when I went through boot camp. We were using M14's when I was at Camp Mathews.
I handed out a few lumps and bruises, but I qualified all of my shooters. I hope they all did well and came home.

Semper Fi

M47 Dragon
May 2, 2008, 11:12 AM
But, Let me ask you this; Do you remember the beatings you got from your Platoon Commander and Drill Instructors at the Rifle Range?

Negative. I don't even remember the Drill Instructors being on the rifle range that much. The PMIs and Rangemaster were actually a breath of fresh air compared to the DIs.

M2 Carbine
May 2, 2008, 11:35 AM
Never let the interest in your weapon become a conversation piece.


My time in the USMC/R was 1955-1963.
I don't remember anything like that.

BruceRDucer
May 2, 2008, 12:01 PM
Negative. I don't even remember the Drill Instructors being on the rifle range that much. The PMIs and Rangemaster were actually a breath of fresh air compared to the DIs.----M47 Dragon

:uhoh: Yeah, that testifies to the changes in the Corps over the decades. The Corps was different in the Chesty Puller Era, and it was even tougher then, before my time, although a non-wartime Corps might be viewed as more normative in its training.

In '67, we were all being prepared to go to 'Nam, and our training was more rushed, and more intensive, so forgive me, because I wasn't trying to make light of the question. It's just that whether or not we turned out to be good marksmen, was not very much on our minds.

I asked a church sponsor who made a career of the Corps if the training today was a "hands on" approach, and he tells me that NO WAY do instructors lay hands on recruits in today's Corps.

Now this might interest you M47. After Boot Camp, we went on to Infantry Training, and one of our Marine instructors had returned from 'Nam.

He had been through NVA ambushes, faced NVA tanks in I Corps (Northernmost region of South Vietnam along the Demilitarized Zone, the "DMZ") which was anything BUT "de-militarized".

He used to say things like:

"Listen up, People! The NVA has got his [STUFF] together! If you think they can't fight, you're going to get your [STUFF] handed right back to you! They will [FLOP] your [STUFF] up."

......or such comments...

And so I put the question to him one sunny, 60 degree, California day:

"Sergeant, when you are in a fire-fight, do you really AIM at your target?":what:


That is why I am mostly confident in instinctive shooting, and I am good at it too.

1911Tuner
May 2, 2008, 12:03 PM
Do you remember the beatings you got from your Platoon Commander and Drill Instructors

Come take a look at my shins...

BruceRDucer
May 2, 2008, 12:33 PM
Come take a look at my shins... ------------M1911Tuner

:what::what::what: Oh my! And I thought I had it rough!:eek:

M47 Dragon
May 2, 2008, 12:44 PM
Even though beatings are no longer allowed (and weren't back in '91 either) it still went on - the difference being that if the recruit wrote home and told mommy of the abuse, no doubt a congressman would be called and the DI would be removed from DI duty. It happened to some poor sap in a school circle sitting next to me... kicked HARD in the chest for eyeballing our heavy hat... The DI was gone by graduation.

But on the firing line, they took a break from being such hard@sses. I basically think it was the fact that we had live ammo and they didn't want us throwing an "AD" their way. :what:

The Annoyed Man
May 2, 2008, 12:51 PM
This is my rifle, this is my gun. This is for shooting and this is for fun....
Hey, USMC1975, if it's any consolation, they were marching to that one when my dad was in the Corps back in WW2. It has reached the status of "tradition!" :D

USMC - Retired
May 2, 2008, 12:58 PM
I was an 8531 (PMI) and never heard that one before. Sounds to me like a personal thing that your particular PMI was passing along.

Dorryn
May 2, 2008, 06:56 PM
NO WAY do instructors lay hands on recruits in today's Corps.

If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you. Amongst other things, my Senior once gave me a swift kick in the head for not doing crunches fast enough.

EyebrowZing
May 2, 2008, 08:06 PM
When I went through Edison rage last fall my PMI said that many of the coaches and other PMIs had funny ideas, that they weren't always actually experts in what they were doing, but had just managed to get though the instructor and coaching courses within acceptable tolerances.
And for DIs lightening up, they were a lot lighter than I had expected, and many times hoped as I saw other recruits slip past. All I ever managed to get was a bruise on my arm from a 'helpful repositioning' while practicing drill once. Sadly they're taking more from us. By the third month of recruit training it came down from some higher ups that we were no longer permitted to shout a healthy 'Kill!' for motivation. 'Drill, drill, drill them all' just didn't cut it.

BruceRDucer
May 2, 2008, 08:46 PM
:)

At least the Marine Corps did not bore us during training. It was, after all, quite an adventure; Who in his right mind would volunteer for a Gammo-Globulin Shot? :what:

Walter
May 2, 2008, 11:17 PM
NO WAY do instructors lay hands on recruits in today's Corps.
:D Yep, that's what the Drill Instructors told us in Boot Camp back in
1968, too. :rolleyes: Riiiiight!

I think you Docs are the only squids I ever respected
+1 on that! All the Corpsmen I knew rated an Eagle, Globe and Anchor
as far as I was concerned. And I had some close up and personal contact
with more than one Corpsman.:o

Walter

1911Tuner
May 2, 2008, 11:23 PM
To this day...I see a NavyDoc in a restaurant, I grab his check. His money's no good in that establishment on that day.

M203Sniper
May 2, 2008, 11:48 PM
Maybe he was telling you something from personal experience.

"Talk to no one except in the line of duty?"

We had a nice conversation about what a "terrorist is" and what he may look like, being aware in our AO (Area of Operations) which now included CONUS and any place we may be standing.

That was in 1997 when I went through Parris Island but I'm almost sure our Senior was in Beirut......

"Have a plan to kill EVERYONE you meet."

In 2001 we broached the subject of not looking like Marines (especially if you have a bad feeling) in certain areas, lose the DoD sticker off your vehicle, stop wearing "recruit" shirts and all that swag and No more TIAJUANA! trips.

I served with some of the finest NCO's and Warrant Officers the Marine Corps has ever produced; they spent all of their time making the troops in their charge and improvement on themselves.

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