Wisconsin co-ed dials 911; dies anyway


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Intrepid Dad
May 2, 2008, 02:53 AM
Here is a story I wish didn't have to be reported. A Wisconsin student dialed 911 after someone broke into her apartment. According to the story, 911 didn't take her seriously. She was subsequently killed.

MADISON, Wis. — A college student apparently called 911 from her cell phone shortly before she was killed but a dispatcher hung up, failed to call back and never sent police to investigate, authorities said Thursday.

Zimmermann, 21, was found slain in her apartment in an apparently random crime. Police believe someone broke into her apartment before killing her. They have not identified a suspect but have ruled out her fiance, who found her body in the apartment they shared.

Dane County Public Safety Communications Director Joseph Norwick said the dispatcher who received the call from Zimmermann's cell phone inquired several times to determine whether an emergency existed. The dispatcher hung up after receiving no answer and then answered another 911 call that was waiting, he said.

Since she was 21, I assume she was able to own a rifle or handgun. It's unfortunate she depended on 911 instead of herself. I hope they find the killer and punish him/her appropriately.

Here's the link to the full article:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,353938,00.html

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-v-
May 2, 2008, 03:09 AM
Norwick said he was investigating the incident and reviewing whether policies should be changed and employees should be disciplined. But he also said, "I don't think there's anything to apologize for at this time."

The Police, here to protect you, when they feel like it.

Very sad tale, might have been markedly different if she was armed. Thats why as a college student, living off-campus, I never keep less then 1 loaded handgun within easy reach at all times.

cowssurf
May 2, 2008, 03:12 AM
Wow. 911 is a joke. Well, that is too harsh. It does a lot of good in a lot of situations, but clearly it is not enough for all situations.

SecuritySixShooter
May 2, 2008, 03:19 AM
Accountability. Is it to much to ask?

Picard
May 2, 2008, 03:29 AM
What a tragedy.

Robert Hairless
May 2, 2008, 03:35 AM
As a father it hurt to read that story.

In the end all we can rely on is ourselves. Parents need to help their children become self-sufficient.

Standing Wolf
May 2, 2008, 08:29 AM
Parents need to help their children become self-sufficient.

Yep. That's what mammals do, with a single exception. Some perverted strains of Homo sapiens turn their young into serfs of the state.

Sato Ord
May 2, 2008, 09:07 AM
Most 911 dispatchers in Florida dispatch police if you call and then don't respond. In all of the counties down here I've had dealings with, that is policy. Of course that didn't save that Sheriff's Deputy's daughter who was kidnapped and murdered since the dispatcher still didn't bother to send the police!

If I need an ambulance the first thing I reach for is my cell phone. If I need protection from someone breaking into my home the first thing I will reach for is my weapon! I want to make sure that if there's a body for the police to find, it ain't mine.

Double Naught Spy
May 2, 2008, 09:28 AM
It's unfortunate she depended on 911 instead of herself.

There is not enough information to determine this statement to be factual or not. All we know is that a call was made from her phone. There is NO WAY to ascertain that this was the only thing she did or that she did not also rely on herself.

911 is just a tool, nothing more. A gun is a tool, nothing more. A gun can be brought into use much quicker, no doubt. However, a gun won't do other things.

They each have their purpose and if used properly by folks who understand their capabilities, they each are good. Both are known to be significant in the saving of lives and both are known to have failed in this regard as well.

romma
May 2, 2008, 09:38 AM
Madison,WI is one of the most liberal, anti-gun, anti-self-defense areas in all the United States.

It is no wonder people have a mindset to depend entirely on 911 in places like this.

Very tragic story. And an even more tragic stance by the police department there.

Phil DeGraves
May 2, 2008, 09:38 AM
I wonder how the dispatcher is feeling today.

JohnL2
May 2, 2008, 10:00 AM
Madison, Wisconsin emergency service is headed by none other than...

jefmad
May 2, 2008, 10:53 AM
This is more a case of not enough staff to handle the call volume. Once she called 911 the operator answered and the call hung up. The operator knew it was from a cell phone, didn't know where the call came from, and HAD 2 OTHER CALLS ON HOLD WAITING FOR HER TO ANSWER. Not that it makes it better but I can sure understand how it happened.

doc2rn
May 2, 2008, 11:00 AM
I don't think there's anything to apologize for at this time."

Are you kidding me! Fire the lot of them and start over. Something is broken and needs fixing in Maddison. A girl died on your watch chief. How serious does it have to get before you acknowledge the problem?

Tyris
May 2, 2008, 11:03 AM
I wonder how the dispatcher is feeling today.

What difference would it make? the police would not be able to defend her as they'd get there 10-15 minutes later anyhow. They'd just draw the chalk outline as usual.

-T

Tyris
May 2, 2008, 11:09 AM
double

Samuel Adams
May 2, 2008, 11:19 AM
Many questions remain unanswered.

1. How many dispatchers were on duty?

2. If there was only one, how serious was the second call that she took?

3. Zimmerman called on a cell phone instead of a land line. Was the dispatch center Phase II compliant, meaning that the location of the cell phone was triangulated and placed on a computerized map?

4. The contents of the call were not released. Was the dispatcher able to get the girl's address prior to being disconnected?

I've been dispatching since 1982. All of the cell calls can't be tracked.

woof
May 2, 2008, 11:32 AM
So how does one determine if their local 911 is able to track location of cell phone calls? No-one is suggesting (are they?) that calls are taken less seriously JUST because they are coming from a cell phone?

BruceRDucer
May 2, 2008, 11:58 AM
What a senseless tragedy. What if it went this way?

Co-Ed: ("Bang".....shoots intruder then dials ...911)

"Hello! I need to report a break-in.....etc"

-----------------------------------------------------

But unfortunately, we seldom learn about the victim's mindset and rationale, even after such a tragedy.

Too often, the person felt "safe" or somehow protected by some "Magic Thought Bubble" whereby they wished no harm to anyone.

It isn't the lawless element that I cannot understand. I understand selfishness, and a will to prey upon others.

What I do not understand, is the rationale behind the law abiding citizen's willingness to be a victim, and their willingness to live in a "Magic Thought Bubble".

It looks like this:

"Nothing will hurt me, if I THINK nothing will hurt me."

This might work regarding certain kinds of non-physical wounds caused by words and negative attitudes; but when wounding goes to the physical, beyond words, and beyond emotions, .... "Magical Thought Bubbles" will not insulate us from harm.


/

dmazur
May 2, 2008, 12:08 PM
While it probably varies, I have read of several recent cases where there was a shooting (at a school) and one of the victim's next-of-kin sued the school for not providing a safe environment for the student, and for preventing self-defense by creating a gun-free zone.

The defense argued that the school had done no wrong and had no obligation to protect the students.

Similar arguments are used when police departments are blamed for failing to provide protection.

The "To Protect and Serve" should be taken off their vehicles. Maybe allow "To Investigate and Possibly Prosecute if You're Lucky".

And (the ultimate crime, IMO), they are hammering "be a victim" into the heads of the kids at the grade school level. I was touched by the story of a mom who explained to her daughter (in a gun store) that the guns behind the counter weren't necessarily bad, that they were useful. Grandpa uses one to get that deer sausage you like. Her daughter had acted scared when she saw all the guns, and you know she didn't get that at home...

The Tourist
May 2, 2008, 12:16 PM
If you want to really have your day spolied, read the entire article in today's (May 2, 2008) edition of The Wisconsin State Journal.

It turns out that 911 operators hung up on dozens of people that day. It had been my false assumption that all telephone calls had to have follow up.

For example, if I have a severe heart attack, the only thing I might be able to do is dial 911 before I pass out.

It's no secret that I despise Wisconsin's lack of concern for drunkeness, CCW legislation, taxes and now the very lives of the citizens it has vowed to protect.

My wife has one more year before she retires. She also dislikes the circumstances of our residency. I have told her that I will support her actions no matter what choice she makes. If she walked off her job today, I would toast her with Patron. She maximizes her pension next year.

I watch me retired friends leave one by one. My wife and I will have a serious discussion next year.

Harley Quinn
May 2, 2008, 12:34 PM
This is an interesting thread, I sure hope bogie does not complain that it is not gun related:uhoh: The way threads like this have been getting closed and mentioned they need to go to APS is interesting:confused:

APS must have a lot of data space available:)

The Tourist
May 2, 2008, 12:41 PM
I think the thread has already accomplished its goal.

We all know where the article is located, and we all have well known opinions on firearms and unilateral personal disarmament.

mikesays_hi
May 2, 2008, 12:42 PM
Do you have to be 21 to own a firearm or just to get a concealed carry permit?

jefmad
May 2, 2008, 12:54 PM
The Tourist,
While I like many things Wisconsin has to offer only a fool stays here after retirement if they have another choice. The govt is full of crooked tax and spend busybodies that are sure they know better than you how you should live your life. I have a business in Madison that I will be able to run from far away and as soon as my son graduates high school we will most likely be Texas residents.

SSN Vet
May 2, 2008, 01:05 PM
Most 911 dispatchers in Florida dispatch police if you call and then don't respond.

and just exactly where do they dispatch to when it's a cell phone call??

I'm sure the dispatcher feels terrible....but...he made a judgement call and took the waiting 911 call. Maybe they saved someones life by hanging up and taking that call. Maybe the reason the girl never spoke is because she died the second her finger hit the third digit on the touch pad.

IMHO it's this kind of whiney, blame casting, ambulance chasing lawyer attitude, that expects LE to save everyone from everything that is at the root of the anti 2A nanny-state problem.

Please don't say "people can't depend on 911 and need to be more self sufficient" in one breath and then say "911 be cursed for not saving everyone that calls them" in the next.

The Tourist
May 2, 2008, 01:08 PM
Jefmad, that's my thinking, as well.

My wife can draw a pension and SS from any state in which she resides.

The job I have does not depend on physical strength, hence I can easily work into my seventies.

My wife and I were born and raised in Wisconsin (the Milwaukee area), and we would leave begrudgingly for all of the mismanagement this state has endured.

Mainsail
May 2, 2008, 01:12 PM
I listen to the scanner here in Tacoma Washington and hear dozens of 911 calls that were made by Phase2 Wireless that are routinely ignored. These go out as “information only” and no officer is dispatched. I have even heard police sergeants reply to dispatch to ignore the calls for their shift. There is apparently some issue with this company’s cell phones that they dial 911 automatically. If the dispatcher tries to call back it doesn’t work.

It’s sort of the modern day “boy who cried wolf”.

Rachen
May 2, 2008, 01:17 PM
Norwick said he was investigating the incident and reviewing whether policies should be changed and employees should be disciplined. But he also said, "I don't think there's anything to apologize for at this time."

May a terrible tragedy just like that happen to someone in your own family, Norwick!
And may you NEVER be able to fall asleep again, while the spirits of all wrongful death victims surround you and torment you to eternal madness!

BruceRDucer
May 2, 2008, 01:26 PM
/


Do you have to be 21 to own a firearm or just to get a concealed carry permit?

Yes Mike. "Legal Age" is important at law. Let me give an example. Even a chess club, has a requirement that its Executive Board be 21 years of age, because they must be legally responsible for other people. If someone "sues" a club over an accident, if I'm a 19 year old officer, they cannot hold me legally liable. Same thing with gun ownership.

Being 21 means that you are legally "liable" and can be held accountable for what you do with a gun.

Being 18, or 19, is not the age of a responsible "adult".

/

RustyShackelford
May 2, 2008, 01:29 PM
In my area, I feel some of the 911/public safety dispatchers are extemely lacking, :rolleyes:. As a security officer, I've called 911 many times in different places and about 80% time it's a major hassle :banghead:. 911/dispatchers have been rude, insulting and arguementative with me in emergency situations. My biggest problem has been telling the 911 operator what and where an event or person is then they ask me for the address( :confused: ). When they send LE to the location, they go to the exact address rather than where I TOLD the 911 dispatch to go, :mad:. When I've explained this to them in the past, LEOs and 911 dispatchers make lame excuses and dodge the problems.
Poor training and a lack of supervision are the sources of many of the 911 call center problems. I worked as a 911/desk clerk when I was a US Army MP. I know how frantic and upset callers are. I also know they may not be safe or able to say their names or addresses quickly.
Rusty S

The Tourist
May 2, 2008, 01:33 PM
I have felt a palpable shift in politics, personal responsibility and crime in Wisconsin during the last five years.

You used to be able to walk anywhere in Madison after dark. Now aggressive panhandlers walk right into peoples' homes. The murders here have occurred within weeks of each other.

The second rate bangers who get displaced from Chicago by the really dangerous ones flock to Madison to earn their bones and street creds. There has been a rash of gang tagging, especially during the last two years--and it's by gangs who were never here before.

After one attack of a patron leaving a bar, our Police Chief Noble Wray, on camera, actually appeared confused on the next step his department should take. I believe "walk in pairs" was the only substantive remark he made.

And much like England, Madison has adopted sort of a "shoot the victim" mentality in dealingwith crime. I actually had a client buy a replacement knife because his original knife was confiscated by police because he successfully cut a mugger.

Oh, come to our Mifflin Sreet Block Party. Those kids the police will arrest...

dmazur
May 2, 2008, 01:41 PM
Do you have to be 21 to own a firearm or just to get a concealed carry permit?

As far as I can tell, the Commonwealth of Virginia allows sales of handguns to persons 18 yrs or older, and you have to be 21 to apply for a concealed carry permit.

Lots of information on Google...

(Also, while you said "firearm", I assumed you meant handgun. Virginia has no restrictions on 18 yr olds buying rifles / shotguns, as far as I can tell from reading. Best thing to do is check with a responsible authority, like maybe the State Patrol. They probably won't get upset at a reasonable question.)

32winspl
May 2, 2008, 01:41 PM
My understanding of cell phone/911 use, is that the only calls that will automaticly get an officer sent are those that have gps capabilities built in.
To whom it was that asked about the "age to ccw here", well, this is Wisconsin; THERE IS NO LEGAL CCW HERE.

dmazur
May 2, 2008, 02:03 PM
The "age of majority" is a whole 'nuther can of worms, which probably doesn't need to be reopened.

I've heard "Drive a motor vehicle at 18, vote at 18, serve in military at 18, get married at 18, execute contracts at 18, consume alcohol at 18 (some states), why not CCW at 18?"

Don't know the answer. It seems an awful lot of the list requires maturity and judgement, which may / may not exist at 18. Of course, 21 is no guarantee, either.

So, if citizens have the right to protect themselves, and if it is generally agreed that the police aren't required to perform that duty, is there a "disenfranchised" gap of 3 years for citizens who are 18?

President Bush was supposed to have reviewed a proposal to raise the age for ownership of handguns nationwide to 21 yrs. Don't know the outcome of that, but that would seem to be going backwards in this area...

If someone asked me, or if it ever came to a vote, I suppose I would be in favor of uniform "18 you're an adult and will be treated as such" laws, but that would have to be across the board. (No "lesser penalties" for under 21 offenses.) And I'd vote for severe punishment for criminal offenses.

IMO, it's time to quit punishing the innocent.

The Tourist
May 2, 2008, 02:17 PM
this is Wisconsin; THERE IS NO LEGAL CCW HERE

No, but it is legal to carry "off body" in a legal gun case. This is my old one from my white collar days. As you'll notice, the top half is a day-planner. No one knew, except one employer, and it solves the legal issues.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb231/TheTourist_bucket/DSC00254.jpg

freakshow10mm
May 2, 2008, 02:18 PM
Police protect the public. That is their job. They have no obligation to protect the individual.

The Tourist
May 2, 2008, 02:25 PM
Police protect the public. That is their job. They have no obligation to protect the individual.

I understand that. However, I am part of the "public."

BTW, that attitude stems from a Supreme Court case of similar CYA in nature. A woman was killed in Washington D.C., for much the same reason. I believe this case set the tone for all police departments where "individuals" are killed.

Edit: The case was Castle Rock vs. Gonzales

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCommentary.asp?Page=/Commentary/archive/200609/COM20060922d.html

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
May 2, 2008, 02:33 PM
Police believe someone broke into her apartment before killing her.

Boy that is a crack police squad, to figure out that they didn't kill her THROUGH the apartment walls with some sort of remote electrocution device. They must have been watching a lot of CSI, and maybe all that blood gave it away.

Yet another 911 victim. When oh when will then antis learn?.....

Just a beautiful girl, too, very sad.

Authorities refused to release the content of the phone call,

And the authority responsible for that refusal should be fired, tarred and feathered, and charge with a crime of dereliction of public duty. :mad:

frogomatic
May 2, 2008, 02:37 PM
What I do not understand, is the rationale behind the law abiding citizen's willingness to be a victim, and their willingness to live in a "Magic Thought Bubble".

Because this is the kind of "citizen", overbearing governments and corporations want to have. It's easier to take advantage of those that are willing to be victimized. Companies can squeeze more money out of them. Governments can manipulate them easier. There is a great deal of money and power to be made on the backs of the weak minded. The motive to induce simple mindedness on a large scale exists, and so long as the motive exists the means will evolve. A side effect of creating such a society is that the criminal element will have more to prey upon, and will be more successful.

They are willing to live this way because it has been ingrained from birth. Fortunately for us, it only takes root in a minority of the population, it can be combated, and anyone with a mildly functioning brain can connect the dots if they can be shown the truth.

1911Tuner
May 2, 2008, 02:37 PM
Sad...but in this case, any further attempts to find out where the cell call originated would probably have been for naught. Not excusing the dispatcher for not trying...but by the time the girl had been located and police arrived on the scene...she'd have been dead.

Damn sad. Moreso to think that an inexpensive single-shot 20 gauge and 35 cents worth of ammunition could have brought a different ending to this tale.

Deanimator
May 2, 2008, 02:38 PM
Please don't say "people can't depend on 911 and need to be more self sufficient" in one breath and then say "911 be cursed for not saving everyone that calls them" in the next.

There's a difference between being UNABLE to "save" someone and not being COMPETENT.

Would you agree that the cases where 911 blew off the little boy who called because his mother was dying, and the case where 911 demanded that the woman shot by her husband put HIM on, demand redress?

Or do you believe that even though your tax dollars pay for these services, a minimum level of diligence doesn't need to be enforced?

callgood
May 2, 2008, 02:40 PM
I have wondered if you wouldn't be better off stating........

"FIRE! FIRE at 123 Apple Road- I think it's ARSON!"

They may be more concerned about property than you. Any type of approaching sirens would be better than none.:confused:

Harley Quinn
May 2, 2008, 02:41 PM
Tourist,
That is a great picture and one that is very revealing.

1) The weapon appears to be loaded and the hammer is in position to be fired.

2) No way to tell if the weapon is in a safe mode, cannot see it because of the way the firearm is laying.

I agree with what you are saying, I am a person who believes all should be allowed to carry if they are willing to be responsible, and follow the rules.

That particular situation (picture) is something I would not carry it that manner:) maybe the filler can be reversed so the weapon is sitting in a way to observe the safety:confused:

These are small things that many don't notice. I on the other hand do:o Why I advocate no bullet in the chamber for civilian carry.

Regards

The Tourist
May 2, 2008, 02:43 PM
I would be willing to scrap the entire 911 system, if the Wisconsin CCW licensing was passed and a "selective GPS" system was available on cell phones.

The reason I say "selective" is that once my truck battery failed, so I called the On-Star style system I have on my cell phone.

The operator pin-pointed my position my a matter of feet, not yards, and clearly told me that I was in the parking lot, not in the building of the parking lot nor on the road.

If a private company has that expertise, it's just a matter of time before government agencies use our phones--even if shut off.

When I ride, I want privacy, even if it means removing my cell phone's battery.

romma
May 2, 2008, 02:48 PM
All I know is here in CT, the only legislation they keep bringing up is stiffer sentences for the criminals, which is a good thing.

But not one piece of legislation has been written with regards to breaking the victim mentality; such as a Castle Doctrine, or similar Stand Your Ground type of law.

And that is where this mindset is bred. Even after repeated high publicity home invasions.

plexreticle
May 2, 2008, 02:50 PM
Dispatcher should be charged with negligent homicide.

Kino74
May 2, 2008, 03:00 PM
You know I strongly believe that women especially younger women in the early 20s seriously need to learn how to properly use a defensive firearm. How many college girls can you think of off the top of your head being killed either at an atm machine or in their home? I can think of a few high profile ones within the last few months.

scrat
May 2, 2008, 03:06 PM
first of all to the tourist thats one nice day planner. As for 911 depends on where you live. In the city of Los Angeles. its a joke. a friggen joke. I called 911 one time. I was driving on the freeway on got side swiped. Anyhow the guy tried to get away. he was driving a minivan. I was in my BMW. Needless he did not get far nor could he ever out run me. I called 911 several times got busy signals or was placed on hold for several minutes. In all it almost took 10 minutes to get through and talk to someone. Amazing friggen amazing.

Harley Quinn
May 2, 2008, 03:08 PM
Dispatcher should be charged with negligent homicide.

:what:

Boy is that a thought or what:eek: Who is the dispatcher and why would that be your reply:rolleyes: The receiver of the call hung up accidently or on purpose, right or wrong. What happened did happen and someone died. Now they need to fix the system that caused this tragic incident. The lawyers will get this and try to collect some money I am thinking for better or worse its going to happen:(

freakshow10mm
May 2, 2008, 03:10 PM
BTW, that attitude stems from a Supreme Court case of similar CYA in nature.
That case was Warren vs DC, 1983.

Dksimon
May 2, 2008, 03:35 PM
That is such a shame. My prayers go out to the family.

Poper
May 2, 2008, 06:15 PM
As a father it hurt to read that story.


A gross understatement.

JMHO

Poper

Guy B. Meredith
May 2, 2008, 06:17 PM
I am collecting articles and videos of instances where 911 failed. This is another one in the collection.

Reyn
May 2, 2008, 06:26 PM
This brings up an interesting point. An anonymous call or 911 hangup.

Do the police enter? Some are gonna holler no,they have no right to enter. Others are gonna complain if they dont enter and someone dies.

So what do you think the appropriate action should be in a case where a 911 call is received and they know the location but no one answers the door?

akodo
May 2, 2008, 07:04 PM
...Madison Police Chief Noble Wray said it was too early to know whether a better response could have prevented the April 2 slaying of Wisconsin-Madison student Brittany Zimmermann...

Well, the truth is, a better response wouldn't have saved her either. Truth is, had the operator not hung up, but instead stayed on the line, and immediately dispatched the police, they STILL would have arrived too late to do anything but collect evidience

plexreticle
May 2, 2008, 07:35 PM
Boy is that a thought or what Who is the dispatcher and why would that be your reply The receiver of the call hung up accidently or on purpose, right or wrong. What happened did happen and someone died. Now they need to fix the system that caused this tragic incident. The lawyers will get this and try to collect some money I am thinking for better or worse its going to happen

I'm having a hard time following your reply but why do i think this? Public officials seem to have a different standard of accountability than the general public.

- Someone calls 911 for help, dispatcher hangs up doesn't send help. Policy change needed?

-SWAT team kicks in wrong door and shoots someone. Oops sorry.

- High speed police chase ends in pile up. Cops is suspended for a couple of weeks.

Lets say I'm driving my work truck and I'm talking on the phone or eating donughts or whatever. I run a red light and clobber someone. If they died I would be in jail.

Gross negligence is OK if your salary is paid with taxes it seems.

RustyShackelford
May 2, 2008, 07:50 PM
To address Reyn; post:
From the past incidents I've seen, most 911 dispatchers/call centers will send an LEO to the location if possible and then check to see if it's just a mistake or if it's more serious. I had a 911 hang-up call by accident on a remote post where I was working and a LEO came by to check it out.
To me excessive 911 calls(like bogus alarm/fire safety call outs) should result in a formal criminal charge and/or fees for the waste of public safety officers. I'd say more than 3 seperate false alarms/911 hang ups in a 12mo period should result in this action by local law enforcement or the code enforcement section. In a recent security job I worked, tenants of an upscale condo kept calling 911/police from a phone in the lounge. The local PD was not happy! :uhoh:

As for the LE agencies/sworn LEOs, I would say that many US law enforcement agencies deal with things the wrong way. Many PDs and public safety officals would rather face civil lawsuits or bad PR than change SOPs or take legal-admin actions against public safety officers/supervisors who do things wrong or are inept. Some LE agencies do not want to face the facts that a sworn officer could have said or done something that caused major problems. They'd rather settle for millions(of tax payer's money, :mad:).
Rusty

Travis McGee
May 2, 2008, 09:38 PM
Dial 911 and die.

Rachen
May 2, 2008, 09:46 PM
Dial 911 and die.

Hey, I think Oleg Volk can make a really nice poster with these words. Example, show in the first picture of a terrified little boy at home, clutching a cell phone, with the towering silhouette of an armed intruder looming over him. Beneath are the words "Dial 911 And Die"
In the next picture, the same little boy, but this time, with an extremely confident defiance on his face, a cell phone on the dresser, and him holding a loaded Glock or 1911A1 directly at the intruder's heart, fiber optic sights all lined up, and ready to fire. Beneath are the words "Words Count When Backed Up With Actions".

I think it would turn out to be very good.

The Tourist
May 3, 2008, 12:12 AM
No way to tell if the weapon is in a safe mode, cannot see it because of the way the firearm is laying.

It was a "staged" photograph.

I had not used the case in +/-eight years, but I wanted to show it. I went to my gunroom, found it, picked up my Colt, dropped the magazine, and set up the case.

FYI, I have carried it cocked and locked due to enhanced work on the safety lever done by Tussey. The trigger is set at +6 pounds and you have to be a weight lifter to push the safety lever to "fire."

I had it set that way to compensate for adrenaline if I needed the pistol. I do plink with it, but its primary job is security.

JohnMc
May 3, 2008, 07:40 AM
Rachen
I think Mr. Volk has covered this subject fairly well:
http://www.a-human-right.com/dependonothers.html
http://www.a-human-right.com/s_fightback.jpg

Jeff22
May 3, 2008, 08:59 AM
"The Police, here to protect you, when they feel like it."

That's pretty irresponsible.

The dispatchers in this case are civilian non-sworn employees who dispatch police/fire/ems for the City of Madison, the Dane county Sheriff's Department, and many smaller municipalities.

I've been dispatched by them since 1981. In general, they do a damn fine job.

As somebody pointed out, if the call comes in on a cell phone, where is the Comm Center supposed to send the police to? They don't have a way to locate, in real time, where the cell phone call is being made from. (Although they can usually tell which tower the cell call came into. Not always)

That's why I still have a conventional land-line phone at home, in addition to the cell phone I carry around with me.

Now, there may be some other issues with the way the call was handled. I suspect more details will come out in the coming days.

cracked butt
May 3, 2008, 09:11 AM
Not much .gov can do for you if they don't have a fix on your location and even then, they don't have the magical ability to appear on the scene instantaneously. Sometimes you just have to deal with the wolves yourself.


There's no way that I would send my daughter off to somewhere else to live without a 'plan B.' I distinctively rememebr when we as a family helped my younger sister move to her first apartment off campus. My parents brought along a care package which included cookies, cooking utensils, linens, and a .410 shotgun with a box of shells.

JWarren
May 3, 2008, 09:28 AM
I haven't been following the "Minute-to-minute" on this case, but yesterday they said on Foxnews that they have refused to release the 911 call tape.


As it is, until we know what was on that tape, I will think the worst of the LE response. The fact that they choose not to release it casts a shadow on them.


-- John

rtroha
May 3, 2008, 09:49 AM
I am collecting articles and videos of instances where 911 failed. This is another one in the collection.

Do you have this one from Columbus, Ohio?

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/04/24/wrong.html?sid=101

Testimony in the seven-day trial showed that Kirk was beaten, kicked and slapped over a 30-minute period by her former boyfriend, Marvin T. Moss, who could be heard on the 911 tape threatening to rape her before he ripped two telephones from the walls of Kirk's Westport Road apartment.

During the last call to 911, Kirk told former county dispatcher Marino Susi that she had been “ whooped” by Moss and she needed a cruiser. A tape of the call has Kirk yelling at Moss not to rip out her phone before the line goes dead. Susi didn't try to call back.

Kirk, 34, was found strangled in bed the next day.

Double Naught Spy
May 3, 2008, 09:58 AM
There are some funny things about 911 and the attitudes of people about 911. For those of you who don't remember, 911 if hugely better than the old system of dialing the operator and being asked to be connected with the police.

Just because somebody tells you to do something doesn't absolve you from all responsibility for yourself. If there are those who call 911 and then do nothing, they would have done nothing without 911 as well. Let's face it. There are some folks who will never be self reliant. There will be folks we can't ever save.

Speaking of which, how many people here who are comlaining about 911 and the lack of response are willing to pay the extra money for a better system and to have cops on every corner, 24/7?

I don't care who tells you that you should rely on 911, but everyone should try thinking for themselves for a change. We call folks "sheeple" because they default to what the police tell them to do just like so many of us will default to whatever some gunwriter or gun instructor tells us to do. We are just as guilty of the same sin of blindly following a supposed leader as those we call "sheeple." We just think we are smarter because we blindly follow with guns.

If you don't like 911, then don't use it. That will free up the limited system resources for others. You can call the non-emergency number to report a crime after you have vanquished the bad guy.

JWarren
May 3, 2008, 10:19 AM
DNS wrote:


Just because somebody tells you to do something doesn't absolve you from all responsibility for yourself. If there are those who call 911 and then do nothing, they would have done nothing without 911 as well. Let's face it. There are some folks who will never be self reliant. There will be folks we can't ever save.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that people should not be self-reliant. I DO think people here disagree with the idea that all problem can be-- and should be-- handled by a 911 call.

The reactions you are seeing here are from those exasperated persons who are tired of the "Call 911 in the event of an emergency" with the assumption that it will fix everything statements we routinely get.

Clearly, that is NOT the case, and yet it is repeated as if it were the word of god by many.


Speaking of which, how many people here who are comlaining about 911 and the lack of response are willing to pay the extra money for a better system and to have cops on every corner, 24/7?

I've spent quite a bit on upgrades. None of them rely on waiting for a cop to get here from 22 miles away. Instead, I focus on what is actually effective for me. Even the most uninformed among the rural communities understand that 911 can't save us.

But I fail to see how ANY money spent on upgrades would prevent an operator from hanging up and forgetting about you.

I don't care who tells you that you should rely on 911, but everyone should try thinking for themselves for a change.


You seem to operate from the assumption that we don't.

We call folks "sheeple" because they default to what the police tell them to do just like so many of us will default to whatever some gunwriter or gun instructor tells us to do. We are just as guilty of the same sin of blindly following a supposed leader as those we call "sheeple." We just think we are smarter because we blindly follow with guns.


While your point is valid for many people in the gun community, it fails to be even remotely relevent.

We could say the exact same about cars, entertainment systems, and that guy who talked me into planting Sawtooth Oak Trees in my yard.

Until you are an expert on something, you typically defer to the opinions of "the experts." Later, you learn that they are not necessarily experts themselves-- or have an agenda-- or are speaking about things that are not relevent to you.

By the time you figure that out, you don't NEED thier opinions.

In the case of the experts putting down any suggestion other than calling 911, you do not get the benefit of figuring out the fallacy of it later.

If you don't like 911, then don't use it. That will free up the limited system resources for others.

It is not a question of not liking it. It is a question of understanding that it is not rubbing on a lamp to get 3 wishes from a blue guy in a turbin. It is a question of QUESTIONING the conventional wisdom offered routinely.


And in the case of a 911 operator that hangs up and does not send any response to a plea for help, it is inexcusable, irresponsible, incompetation, unconcerned, and damned evil. Don't try to defend that with "if you don't like it, don't use it."

Until you tell me that I don't have to pay for it with my taxes, I'll use it as damned often as I need to.

You can call the non-emergency number to report a crime after you have vanquished the bad guy.

Considering that we can't get a response here in under 30 minutes, that was my original plan. It's either that or be found in a pool of my own blood. The former sounds more workable for me.


-- John

rocinante
May 3, 2008, 10:28 AM
This is sad but seems to fit a normal pattern and that poor REAL girl is gone. Not even much point in reading the responses here because nothing new can be added. I read the comments on the same incident over on digg.com and the usual LAME anti comments pop up. Absurdies like you will never be fast enough to get to a gun for it to be effective. The poor girl had time to get to a telephone didn't she? Bet she would of felt more comfort holding even a derringer than her hot line to no help at all. Stories like this just in my mind reinforce the TRUISM 'when seconds count the police are minutes away'. I am so puzzled where this notion that self defense is not a personal responsibility got such a hold on so many minds.

papajohn
May 3, 2008, 11:52 AM
I spent over a dozen years as a 911 Dispatcher, and the attitude of some of the posters here is just plain appalling. The call came from a cell phone.....which can't be traced. The dispatcher SHOULD have called back, no doubt......but had other emergency calls to take. Do we put all the other calls on hold until we call back the number where no one was answering? How would you feel if you called 911 and no one answered, because they were busy doing followups? Jesus, the bleating and whining around here is unbelieveable.

And if the dispatcher HAD called back, and got no answer, then what? What would you have her do? Anyone who has worked in a call center knows there are times when the phones are ringing off the hook, quite often with people calling in NON-emergency problems. What do you want to do about them, prison time? Cut off their phone priveleges? Public spankings?

As for not releasing the tape, I'm sure this is an on-going investigation, and as such, should NOT be released pending the outcome. Duh.

Did the dispatcher screw up? Probably. So did the victim. Several different ways.....not being prepared, not using a land line, not being armed, who knows what else. Maybe nothing would have helped, maybe she was dead before the call was even answered, we don't know. But an awful lot of folks are being awful quick to point fingers before they have all the facts, or even understand how the system is supposed to work. Maybe once all the halos are passed out for the perfect among us we can revisit this.......:scrutiny:

PJ

macadore
May 3, 2008, 01:59 PM
As a father it hurt to read that story.


+1
When my first daughter moved out, I gave her a double action 38 Special loaded with 125 grain +P hollow points. Last summer another daughter went on vacation with some friends. Before she left, I handed her a double action 44 Special loaded with Cor-Bons. In the middle of the night, someone started pounding on the door of the hotel room my daughter her friends were sharing and demanding to be let in. My daughter grabbed the previously concealed 44 and told one of the other women to call the front desk. It turned out to be a drunk trying to get into the wrong room, but it could have been otherwise. The other women were shocked, relived, and confused by my daughter being armed. Hopefully, they learned a valuable lesson.

Harley Quinn
May 3, 2008, 02:12 PM
I haven't been following the "Minute-to-minute" on this case, but yesterday they said on Foxnews that they have refused to release the 911 call tape.

As it is, until we know what was on that tape, I will think the worst of the LE response. The fact that they choose not to release it casts a shadow on them.

Legality is the whole issue. At some date and time it will be released I think.
Right now many of the thoughts and statements made at this forum is some of the reasons it is not open to public opinion.
The opinion poll at the newspaper is a good location also, to get the feeling of the general public.
Some real interesting thoughts for sure.

:)

Justin
May 3, 2008, 02:19 PM
Truly a terrible story. Citizens would all do well to understand that the system cannot protect them 24/7 and that we are all responsible for our own safety.

That said, I don't think it's a lesson that's lost on the membership here, and since there's no direct gun content in the story, I'm going to close the thread.

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