[tightgroups]

Hello everyone,

I put a new hand/spring in my pocket navy and the timing is a bit off. Before filing the hand down the timing was really bad. If the gun was cocked too aggressively, the cylinder would slide past the hammer, I guess because the hand is still a bit too long and maybe the bolt isn't popping up fast enough/properly.

I also noticed it seems to only overshoot on the fifth cylinder hole, seems like the other four times I cock the hammer back the timing is fine! Very odd!:scrutiny:

What should I do to fix the problem?

Thanks.

[ZeSpectre]

Take it to a qualified gunsmith.
Timing issues are not something for the layman to mess with.

Sorry if that was too blunt but bad timing can turn a firearm into a hand grenade and it's just not worth the risk to home tinker if you don't know what you are doing.

[scrat]

ok now the help part. Check this out.

http://www.blackpowderrevolver.net/page129a.html

Hope this helps

[tightgroups]

Thanks scrat!

Don't care for the "you can't possibly do it yourself types!"

Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he'll eat forever.

If I can build custom 1911's then I think I can fix a Single action bp revolver. It's always wise to ask for advice regardless of ones skill level. There are some old timers on this board that have some very clever ticks and techniques that I'm sure I don't know about.

Thanks again scrat!

[ZeSpectre]

Don't care for the "you can't possibly do it yourself types!"

Hey, it's your hand/face/gun. There are plenty of things on firearms that I say "go ahead and tinker" but revolver timing and trigger sear work aren't among them because it's way too easy to turn a nice firearm into a dangerous timebomb if you haven't had any training and by the simple fact that you are asking the question I'd guessed you hadn't had any training

If I can build custom 1911's then I think I can fix a Single action bp revolver.
And I was supposed to know that you had some gunsmithing experience how exactly? By psychic osmosis? Sheesh, I was trying to help you stay safe.

Personally I don't care for people who ask for advice and then get snarky if it's not the advice they wanted to hear.

[scrat]

No problem. Id first get a new hand spring. However it really seems like you need to take a look at the back of the cylinder. Replace hand spring. may have to fine tune it a bit with some stones. IF that does not work. Id say a new cylinder is in the works.
Not a gunsmith problem though. But then i used to own a machine shop so for me it would be like making lemonaide.

All in all the gun has 30 parts. That is counting everything. Back in the day i could take apart a Rotchester 4 barrel carburetor. Re machine the housing myself and have all 100 or more parts back together and have the engine running perfect in a few hours. So 30 parts in a revolver is nothing. Wow i used to love redoing carburetors. Man there were a boat load of parts too.

[scrat]

here is some past info on timing you might want to look up too.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=344974&highlight=timing

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=349485&highlight=timing

[mykeal]

scrat,

In post #6, did you mean to say new HAMMER and spring, or perhaps it was HAND and spring?

I haven't seen anything to suggest a new hammer was in order, at least not so far.

Timing a c&b single action revolver can be tricky, but it's very rarely ever dangerous. I have a hard time coming up with a timing issue that causes the gun to fire when significantly out of battery, for instance. About the worst you can do is make it worse and have to spend $10 for new parts.

[scrat]

woops. yep. woops


dont know what i was thinking

[Voodoochile]

Scrat:
It does sound as though the hand is just a tad long & some minor stoning will bring it back in order.

I had to do this very thing "well sortof" for a friend of mine that wanted to get the creep out of his trigger, lets just say that he deffinitly had no creep when he got done with it but he also had no need for the thing you put your finger on either.

After finally acquiring some Kasenit to reharden his new hammer when I had finnished it he had just enough creep to make the trigger have a 4Lb pull "I will not go below 4Lb even though the law allows 3.5Lb."

BTW Scrat, I'm Raider2000 in Firingline just seems some one else has the name in here as well, & before anyone rings in.
No I am not a professional Gun Smith but I've learned from my early teens "with my grandfather" till now how to fix my own stuff be it my Guns to my Automobiles & everything inbetween, Patience is the key to making the job be enjoyable as well be performaed right.

[scrat]

hahahahah small world uh Raider 2000

[tinygnat219]

Interesting... all.

The solution's simple. Take it to a smith. They have the tools, experience and know how to fix a revolver's timing.

[scrat]

Thats the last thing i would do. I would never see the gun again. The only gun smith in town around me is Bain n Davis. they have a 6 month waiting list right now for ANY work.

[RecoilRob]

If you are having the overshoot problem on one chamber only, please look carefully at the cylinder where the hand contacts THAT chamber to advance it into position. It may have a burr that needs removed. At the least, it is good that you can lessen THAT chambers movement by taking a little off the corresponding cylinder piece...and not the hand which is fine for the other four.

[Jamie C.]

There are plenty of things on firearms that I say "go ahead and tinker" but revolver timing and trigger sear work aren't among them...

Funny.... I've always thought that if a person's gonna play with BP revolvers, they'd better be willing to learn how to work on their own guns.

The things just aren't all that complicated, and are likely to wear out some of the smaller parts. ( Why do you think places like Cabela's sells spare parts kits as well as the guns themselves? )

As for turning one into a "grenade"... I don't see how you could do that by working on the timing. You might cause it to shave and spit lead between the cylinder and the forcing cone, or to not fire at all, but I just don't see how you could get it to explode in your hand.

Anyway... I'm pretty sure that most of here either do or will tinker with our guns. And so far, I've not heard of anybody having a catastrophic failure due to their efforts.


J.C.

[Jamie C.]

If you are having the overshoot problem on one chamber only, please look carefully at the cylinder where the hand contacts THAT chamber to advance it into position. It may have a burr that needs removed. At the least, it is good that you can lessen THAT chambers movement by taking a little off the corresponding cylinder piece...and not the hand which is fine for the other four.

Also check the bolt notch for that chamber, to see if it has a rounded or peened edge that's letting the bolt "ramp" back out of the notch. ( Dirt or fouling built up in the notch can cause the same problem. )

The cylinder bolt and spring need to be checked too. If the spring is too weak, or the screw holding it in is too loose, it may be letting the bolt jump the notch. The same is true if the cylinder bolt is worn or defective.


J.C.

[tightgroups]

Recoil rob,

Yup. that sounds about right to me also.

Tinygnat,

No gunsmith is touching my revolver....overpriced....and you never know if they're any good. Besides, I can do anything any other man can do, there might be a learning curve but that is normal. These revolvers aren't exactly complicated. It usually takes a little common sense. I generally ask for advice to back up what I'm already most likely going to do anyway, and it's a good way to make sure I'm not missing anything painfully obvious...just like what recoil rob posted...didn't think of that myself until last night.

[StrawHat]

Another spring to consider replacing would be the trigger/bolt spring under the triggerguard.

If it were mine, I'd look at that spring, the ratchet on the rear of the cylinder and the hand as sources of the problem.

Good luck.

[tightgroups]

Hi guys,

I just pulled out my pocket navy...(been working on a custom 1911 for the past few days and I just finished up) and I marked what I though was the chamber that was sliding past the hammer slot. I was wrong, it is doing it on more than one chamber.

This leads me to believe that either the hand still needs to be shortened a bit or it's the bolt spring underneath the cylinder. I did look at the ratchets and one does seem to be a bit banged up but it's still working fine.

So...think I should go ahead and take off a bit more metal on the hand and spring? I'll check the bolt and spring just in case, it would be a shame if I shortened the hand so much that I'd have to order another one.

The gun works fine but if I rack the hammer back with any force the cylinder timing goes goofy. I just like my guns to work in any situation, under different amounts of cocking pressure, etc. What if I was in a situation where my adrenaline was pumping and I cocked the hammer with a lot of force? I understand that probably would never happen but Mr.Murphy always pops up when you don't want to see him, and it's usually when you're in a serious situation.

TG.

[mykeal]

One of three things is happening:

1) the hand is too long and pushes the cylinder past the point where the bolt can enter the notch cleanly, or

2) the bolt is damaged and allows the cylinder to move even though it's engaged, or

3) the bolt spring is weak/broken and isn't pushing the bolt far enough for it to engage properly.

If 1, then I would expect to see marks on the trailing edges of the cylinder notches. If 2, the bolt head will be worn clean. If 3 the spring will be bent/broken (it could be shortened).

Since this happens only (?) when pulling the hammer back quickly I think you're looking for a subtle clue. It's something minor, a few thousandths of an inch or ounces of force. Use a magnifying glass to examine the parts for wear.

[tightgroups]

Great advice mykeal.

It's definitely something very subtle. The bolt face isn't worn, all of the edges are crisp and clean so that leads me to believe it could be the bolt spring underneath. I may not have tightened the screw that holds the bolt spring in place, or, the spring itself needs to be bent a bit more. If I'm remembering correctly the spring has not been shortened.

I'll check those things first, then move on to the hand and spring. If you take the cylinder off of the arbor and watch the hand's range of travel, while cocking the hammer, you'll notice that the hand moves a bit past it's natural range of travel, if/when you pull the hammer back to its furthermost point, which is when it contacts the back strap of the grip.

It's exactly like decocking the pistol. In order to save the hammer notch from being damaged, you should pull the hammer all of the way back, so the hammer notch clears the trigger sear completely during decocking. If you don't do this you'll eventually ruin the hammer notches or the trigger sear. I guess it depends on which of the two parts is softer than the other.

Thanks for the help.

[StrawHat]

. If you take the cylinder off of the arbor and watch the hand's range of travel, while cocking the hammer, you'll notice that the hand moves a bit past it's natural range of travel, if/when you pull the hammer back to its furthermost point, which is when it contacts the back strap of the grip.


On a properly timed single action the hammer touches the grip strap and locks up at the same time.

The hammer should not move forward after touching the grip strap.

Shortening the tip of the trigger to "improve" the let off will result in the hammer moving forward.

It also allows the trigger to move forward in the triggerguard.

It also allows the hand to drop back and not support the cylinder when fired.

Not a good thing.

[tightgroups]

Straw,

You misunderstood what I wrote. The hammer's travel isn't effected, but the hand's travel is! Either way, it is a mute point now. My hand is at the proper length. I checked the bolt & trigger spring and that was the culprit. I tightened the screw that tensions the bolt spring and the problem has been solved.

Originally, I had to shorten the length of the hand and that did improve the cylinder overshooting the hammer slot. but I still got intermittent timing issues after shortening the hand, of the same kind, only not so extreme. Since tightening the screw as mentioned above, I can rack the hammer back as hard as is safe without causing damage, and the cylinder will not overshoot the hammer slot. The timing is now perfect!

All those "take it to a gunsmith" naysayers should take note:

We free born Americans used to be able to fix everything ourselves. Having other "men" fix our problems instead fixing them ourselves is a very recent phenomenon. If you guys want to depend on other people to take care of you, that is your choice. In my opinion though, it's a bad choice. Look at what happened to all those people down there in the Southlands, during Hurricane Katrina....some of them are still waiting for food and water at the SuperDome!!!!!:cuss:

Thanks to all those who gave me advice, whether it helped or not. At least you threw it out there!;)

BP shooters are normally a breed apart and like to be self sufficient. I'm riding that train, along with all of you fellow BP brothers.

Thanks.:D

TG.

[mykeal]

Tightgroups,

We free born Americans used to be able to fix everything ourselves. Having other "men" fix our problems instead fixing them ourselves is a very recent phenomenon. If you guys want to depend on other people to take care of you, that is your choice. In my opinion though, it's a bad choice.

Interesting philosophy. I would modify it slightly - do for yourself what you can do (repair of single action mid-nineteenth century replicas is one) but know when to seek trained professional help when you can't (removal of unexploded ordnance as discussed in another thread would qualify).

[tightgroups]

Very good point mykeal, and well taken! :cuss:

Still though, I think you understand the point I was trying to make, right?

Thanks for the good advice mykeal.:)

TG.

[mykeal]

Yes. I understood, and agree wholeheartedly, with that point. But, sometimes we need to compromise.

[tightgroups]

I agree with compromise, only a fool doesn't compromise...depending on the situation of course!