I was disarmed today


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64nova
May 2, 2008, 06:14 PM
This is my first post but I have been viewing this site for some time now. I enjoy the people who post here and have learned a wealth of knowledge. I think many of you will be entertained by this post.

Today my wifeís grandfather and I were at the Museum of Nature and Science in Denver CO. I was CCWing my Kahr CW9 IWB on my right hip covered by a loose t-shirt. Well when I was leaning over looking at some of the exhibits the handle must have been printing through my shirt a little more than I thought. It must have caught the attention of a security guard who then found two other security guars who then confronted me. They were very polite and one of them casually asked me if I was carrying a fire arm. I replied that I was. He then asked if i have a CCW permit for the state of CO. I stated that I did. He then stated that since there were many kids around and this was a quazi governmental building he wanted me to place my fire arm in my vehicle. I stated that I would. We then walked out of the exhibit. He stated that he would rather see me have the gun on my person and that he too was pro gun. They never checked my ID or asked me to produce the gun and thanked me for being cooperative.

I hadn't prepared myself on how I would handle a situation like this so I was taken completely off guard. This opened my eyes a little on how unprepared I will probably feel if heaven for bid ever needed to use my CCW. I should look into getting some more training. Food for thought to all of you out there CCWing.

What would the rest of you done in this situation?

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mr_dove
May 2, 2008, 06:17 PM
thanks for the info. I have a membership to the museum and I've concealed carried there in the past. It sounds like you both handled it well.

Its a good lesson in keeping your firearm concealed if nothing else.

Trisha
May 2, 2008, 06:20 PM
You were courteous, non-confrontational, and compliant. You weren't situationally aware, and have an excellent object lesson in both that as well as better atire for CCW in any circumstance.

It could've gone much worse, given that it was Denver!

Absolutely, more training is highlighted!

What would've I have done? Other that different prep to avoid the situation (though no one is absolutely perfect always and everywhere), nothing.

YMMV

Geno
May 2, 2008, 06:21 PM
It obviously was not a government building...just hype on the guards' part. For my part, I would have asked the see the law that stated I could not possess my CCW in that location. Unless they could show me the law, or a "lawfully" posted sign prohibiting it, I would not remove the weapon to my automobile. Just my 2 cents.

As an aside, it may be a good idea to get a frontal, IWB holster if you believe you may have to be bending to look at items.

bogie
May 2, 2008, 06:21 PM
Guys, y'all both need to send -polite- letters to the head of the museum, asking for clarification on their policy, along with how they propose to ensure the safety of you and your family in the event of a situation.

Logos
May 2, 2008, 06:22 PM
I think you did exactly the correct thing.

Anytime a place of business asks that question, the only polite thing to do is cooperate in a friendly way.

You might write a letter to the people in charge and tell them nicely that you are not comfortable with their policy of taking away your right to self-defense.

You also need to work on improving concealment......that Kahr is definitely not a bulky gun.

:)

kingpin008
May 2, 2008, 06:40 PM
I agree that the guard was wrong in his statement that the museum is a "quasi-government building". If he had told me such, I would have politely asked him to explain that to me. If he was unable, I would have asked to see what the museum's policy was on patrons carrying legally concealed weapons, and offer to accompany him to a location (such as a security office, or the like) while we discussed it, so as to keep the conversation out of the public. If, after that, he was unable (or unwilling) to provide a museum-management-issued policy that prohibited lawful concealed carry, I would politely decline to remove my sidearm to the car.

If they persisted, I would quietly leave (along with my family) and make sure to get the names of all involved parties on the way out. I would inform them that I'm a law-abiding citizen, and as of that moment, a former patron, and would be contacting both the musem management as well as personal acquaintances and family members to inform them of their anti-self-defense policies.

End of story. :)

mr_dove
May 2, 2008, 06:51 PM
Perhaps its a bit like the Denver Zoo. They post signs at all the entrances saying not to carry firearms into the Zoo. I don't know the exact reason but there's something that keeps the Zoo from prohibiting permit holders from carrying in the zoo. So, they try to keep out all the guns but they can't actually keep you out if you have a permit.

Cosmoline
May 2, 2008, 07:04 PM
You need to work on concealment!I've spotted lots of people carrying IWB with a cover shirt. It doesn't work particularly well, or at least not well enough to hide from someone looking for it.

The Lone Haranguer
May 2, 2008, 07:11 PM
Is this place posted "no guns?" Then no one had any business telling you to do anything (other than hide your gun better;)). But, there was not much else you could have done anyway. A confrontation would not have helped anything. Sometimes in order to win a war you have to lose a few battles.

Pat-inCO
May 2, 2008, 07:19 PM
64nova - You handled it well, and you've heard about better concealment.

To many of the others, I suggest you review the CCW laws for Denver. They think themselves above the state law when it comes to CCW and I, for one, do not care to be the test case in court and spend all that money to prove them wrong.

DoubleTapDrew
May 2, 2008, 07:19 PM
Were the security guards armed? Maybe they were just jealous :D

koja48
May 2, 2008, 07:20 PM
You handled it well, but if, by the laws of CO it is legal to carry there, the guard was way out of line. Definition/description of carry/no carry areas should be black & white, no gray areas. Learn from the experience and improve your carry . . . concealed should be just that . . . and all the time.

nplant
May 2, 2008, 07:27 PM
I would second bogie's statement - write a most polite letter to the head of the museum asking for clarification and tell them that if the policy is "no personal protection items are allowed," then they need to outline the policy on how they will take the responsibility to protect you when you're visiting.

gym
May 2, 2008, 07:36 PM
You did Good, I had an experience 20 yrs ago, and ended up in a cell for the night. I spent a lot of time and money, to get the charges dismissed and get my license and weapons back. Don't listen to the guys that tell you what they would have done. You can end up making a heck of a lot of unnecessary trouble when confronted by police, as they are always right, even when they're wrong.

Guntalk
May 2, 2008, 07:37 PM
It's called concealed for a reason.

A shirt just doesn't cut it in most situations. A photographer's/traveler's vest, with a camera around the neck, works well.

And don't overlook the fanny pack. NO, it does not "scream gun" to others. Only to real gunnies, and that's okay. Look around, and you'll see others using fanny packs for wallets, keys, etc.

Sounds like you did well . . . after you screwed up. <grin> No harm, no foul. And a good education.

bogie
May 2, 2008, 07:41 PM
Perhaps its a bit like the Denver Zoo.

Zoo people tend to get REALLY uptight when you're in there with your best shootin' bud, you've had a coupla beers, and you're discussing the finer points of just where to shoot Mr. Grizzly before he chews your face off...

glockman19
May 2, 2008, 07:51 PM
another good reason to pocket carry

64nova
May 2, 2008, 07:57 PM
You are all right. I screwed up and didnít conceal my gun (although as I stand in front of the mirror now that security guard was really on his game to spot me, the Kahr conceals pretty well) and subsequently I was made. Iím going to look into better concealment techniques including a vest in the future.
This has been a good lesson to me. Even when CCWing one can get complacent.

bogie
May 2, 2008, 07:58 PM
Betcha touched it...

Geronimo45
May 2, 2008, 08:03 PM
A shirt just doesn't cut it in most situations.
That's because too many people wear normal shirts - T-shirts, polos, what-have-you.
True operators wear a tactical deep-cover high-capacity assault shirt. Example collection:
http://www.nps.gov/archive/hstr/exhibits/aloha_shirts/aloha_3.htm
This one in particular:
http://www.nps.gov/archive/hstr/exhibits/aloha_shirts/Images/17405.htm

22LongRifle
May 2, 2008, 08:05 PM
If its private property, ie not government, don't they have the right to not allow firearms?

22lr

Bill2e
May 2, 2008, 08:06 PM
That is a shame, but you handled yourself well.

CHAINGUNMASSACRE
May 2, 2008, 08:12 PM
You and the guards handled it well. In my state, printing is BAAAAD! The local police will revoke your CCP on the spot. Concealed means concealed, and you learned a valuable lesson today. IWB holsters don't work well at all for me. Even with mouseguns that I sometimes carry, I'm always paranoid of them printing. The only full size pistol I can carry without printing is my BHP tucked into my waistband, no holster. We're talking summer, of course. In the winter my Beretta 92 hides away nicely.

koja48
May 2, 2008, 08:13 PM
They do; if made & and you are asked to disarm or leave & don't do either, you can be cited for trespass, but not for carrying (assuming their place is not on the "Thou shalt not carry list" as defined by the laws of your state.).

BruceRDucer
May 2, 2008, 08:22 PM
This is of interest for all of us Coloradans and Denverites.

You handled it about as well as could be expected, given that it was easier to do as asked. Although, I think the guards at the Museum were unreasonable, since you did have a permit.

I've had run-ins with staff at the museum concerning other issues, not gun related. Frankly, I think they mostly consist of twits, but that's besides the point. :what:

ants
May 2, 2008, 08:24 PM
Yes, they do have the right to disallow firearms. It is private property. From the Colorado State Shooting Association FAQ on concealed weapons carry:

The law does not prevent a private party, including a business, from restricting firearms on his/her own property.

coloradokevin
May 2, 2008, 08:27 PM
The law is written poorly, but in essence does not restrict the rights of a private business owner (et al) to restrict the carry of firearms on their property.

However, I'm unsure of the ownership of the museum and/or zoo. Both are in Denver's City Park, and both at least seem to claim affiliation with the city. As such, I couldn't honestly tell you if the building is public, or private.

I think the OP handled things well, was civil, and didn't create a scene!

(as someone else mentioned, the catch in all of this would be if they asked you to leave, and you refused... Then they could sign for trespassing.)

Travis McGee
May 2, 2008, 08:34 PM
I don't CCW with T-shirts any more, they print too readily.

I always CCW with a wide variety of loose printed short sleeve shirts instead. Not just Hawaiian shirts, but lots of bold geometric prints. No matter how you lean over, the gun's bulge just won't show.

rmarcustrucker
May 2, 2008, 09:23 PM
another reason I'm into deep concealment, not just casual cover. Not beating a dead horse, but the best way to handle this situation is to make sure no one sees your gun. No offense, just the easy way to handle it. Find a method that works and works 100% of the time to conceal it.

ants
May 2, 2008, 09:37 PM
Like many museums, it is a private not-for-profit organization funded by a combination of foundations, donations, and public funding. It can establish a no-guns policy and has no obligation to post it at the entrance. As coloradokevin says, gun laws are often poorly written and difficult to apply clearly. It takes a lot of good judgement.

Frankly, I think the guard and our member 64nova both did a fabulous job of communicating, cooperating, and taking The High Road.

bakert
May 2, 2008, 10:01 PM
Think both you and the guard conducted yourselves in a polite and proper manner. I agree a properly concealed gun shouldn't be noticed but if so, one who is asked to leave a business or other private property because of having a gun is better off just leaving. Blustering and stating one's god given rights may well get a person a ride downtown:p

rero360
May 3, 2008, 12:25 AM
oops, wrong thread, trying to cut and copy didn't quite work how I had intended.

koja48
May 3, 2008, 12:26 AM
Well-stated, 'nuff said.

Autolycus
May 3, 2008, 12:28 AM
It obviously was not a government building...just hype on the guards' part. For my part, I would have asked the see the law that stated I could not possess my CCW in that location. Unless they could show me the law, or a "lawfully" posted sign prohibiting it, I would not remove the weapon to my automobile. Just my 2 cents. That is a good way to get arrested for trespassing.

Nnobby45
May 3, 2008, 12:53 AM
What would the rest of you done in this situation?





On the way to the car I would have stopped and bent over and asked the security guard to put his boot up my @&% for being such an amaturish klutzhead and allowing myslelf to be made like that.:D

Now, mind you, I'm not calling you any names, but that's how I'd see myself if it'd been me.

I would have, under the circumstances, realized whose fault it was and co-operated 'cause I would have deserved it while insuring that it didn't happen again. If a security guard can make me that ease, so can a bad guy. :cool:

DWARREN123
May 3, 2008, 06:01 AM
Always be polite and back up any statements with facts, know the laws.
I think you did well.

Geno
May 4, 2008, 10:09 AM
DWARREN said:

Always be polite and back up any statements with facts, know the laws.

I agree. It seems to me the building/business was public per the guard saying "quasi government". If there were no signs declaring it a pistol free zone, trespass is out.

So, I agree,

Always be polite and back up any statements with facts, know the laws.

The part I find laughable on the guards' part is the "...kids around". It's always for the children's benefit and safety. I counter that with, what of my family's safety, and my own safety? I submit as evidence of the lack of security, the fact that the "security" guards did not dare confront until they were multiple against one who was none violent. What would they do if someone were violent? Run? Hide? Call 911? Let everyone be killed?

Always be polite and back up any statements with facts, know the laws.

Unless the requesting person can reference the law stating that they have the authority (not right), the authority to disarm me, or show me state authorized signs prohibiting my carry, carry I will. I would add, conceal well and these matters should not happen. Pick up a nice CCW vest. They have them that match jeans or dress pants.

blackcash88
May 4, 2008, 05:13 PM
Do you live in CT or MA, Chaingun?

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