Can the State determine what guns I have?


PDA






vito
May 3, 2008, 11:21 AM
Every time we go to buy a gun we go through a Federal criminal background check, and here in IL we have a three day waiting period for a handgun purchase. I wonder about the paperwork related to these purchases, and if the State or Federal government can go back and figure out what guns I have (or at least which ones I've bought since the background checks began). Here is IL there are many reasons why the State can revoke your FOID card (Firearm Owners Identification), and if such happened, I wonder if I would face a government official coming to my door with a list of every gun I have ever purchased, ready to seize them. While hypothetical right now, I don't think its prudent to think it could never happen. Anyone have an answer to this?

If you enjoyed reading about "Can the State determine what guns I have?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
AirForceShooter
May 3, 2008, 12:23 PM
I guess it all depends on what State.
Here in Florida the Sate doesn't have a clue.

AFS

Jeff White
May 3, 2008, 12:34 PM
Any firearm you purchase from an FFL dealer has a paper trail. That form 4473 you fill out. It doesn't leave the dealer unless he goes out of business.

When the instant check is run, all they say is handgun or long gun. If you are approved a control number is issued. The only information they have in that system is that on this day, you inquired about purchasing a handgun or long gun. If you backed out of the purchase, the state has no way of knowing.

So the answer is yes and no. Yes it's possible for the government to to know every gun you purchased from an FFL dealer. No it's not handy. To get a total list of all your purchases they would have to visit each and every FFL you ever bought a gun from.

Jeff

Standing Wolf
May 3, 2008, 01:44 PM
Any time government wants to know what guns you have, all it has to do is issue a warrant to a cop.

You've heard of restraining orders, haven't you? That's all the Bill of Rights is.

elrod
May 3, 2008, 01:46 PM
Here in Florida the Sate dosen't have a clue.

I'm enough of a conspiracy (or tin foil hat) nut to think that, given the government tendancy for records, computers, and nosiness, somewhere there is a database containing all the relevant data on time, place, and type of firearm purchases. Try to tell me that that information would not be especally intresting to the anti-gun politicans. The powers-to-be of the 50's (J. Edgar Hoover, Eugene McCarthy, etc.) would have been more than happy to intitate such a database.

Any firearm you purchase from a FFL dealer has a paper trail. That form 4473 you fill out. It dosen't leave the dealer unless he goes out of business.

Would anyone care to guess who gets it then?

These are reasons I dislike buying from a FFL (although I have filled out many 4473s). Getting old, I suppose.:uhoh:

rugerman07
May 3, 2008, 03:10 PM
When the dealer goes out of business all of his 4473 forms goes directly to the BATF.

bogie
May 3, 2008, 03:13 PM
And f-troop is just another government bureaucracy. So there's a good chance that a large numbers of the 4473 are stored in warehouses somewhere, and if they're entered into some sort of system, they are rife with errors.

Wrap your guns with aluminum foil. They'll feel better that way.

MD_Willington
May 4, 2008, 03:51 AM
WA State...

IIRC it is the DOL that knows what pistols you have...

wcb
May 5, 2008, 01:05 AM
I'm enough of a conspiracy (or tin foil hat) nut to think that,

I have a question, not to change the subject here; why is it that people automatically think a conspiracy is untrue or suspect?

The definition of conspiracy is:
1. the act of conspiring.
2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.
3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.
4. Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act.
5. any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.

None of those definitions in any way indicate an inaccuracy or rumor as the word tends to be used.

romeo212000
May 5, 2008, 01:12 AM
"Oh that gun. No I sold it to someone through an internet deal a long time ago. I dont even know how to contact him. Sorry I cant be of more help to ya."

Diamondback6
May 5, 2008, 01:35 AM
WA State...

IIRC it is the DOL that knows what pistols you have...
Only if you bought from an instate FFL, dude... Two words: "private sale."

:D

I have a private "acquisition form" I've written up which basically says "buyer certifies under penalty of perjury eligibility to purchase, seller certifies under penalty of perjury he/she is lawful owner of weapon being transferred" and a copy goes home with each of us--I keep mine alongside the guns they're for. I lifted a lot of the language from something on Xavier Brass's blog. (Thanks, XB!)

MD_Willington
May 5, 2008, 02:19 AM
Actually.. WA State has a "Private Disposition Transfer" form...

Voluntary of course..

http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.pdf

Diamondback6
May 5, 2008, 02:40 AM
True, MD, but it's still voluntary, until legislated otherwise, which means I don't have to use it. Especially since theirs becomes public record which anyone can see, and mine is just me and the seller/buyer...

Oh, there's an idea, fill out the form but don't send it in, then "oops, I thought I'd filed this!"

Thernlund
May 5, 2008, 02:47 AM
When the instant check is run, all they say is handgun or long gun. If you are approved a control number is issued. The only information they have in that system is that on this day, you inquired about purchasing a handgun or long gun. If you backed out of the purchase, the state has no way of knowing.

Or... if you have a concealed carry permit and your state accepts that in lieu of the background check, the gov't will not know if you bought a gun at all. They can of course assume you own a gun, but beyond the point where you got the CCW, quantity is nearly impossible to determine (unless the FFL goes under, as has been said).


-T.

ServiceSoon
May 5, 2008, 08:46 PM
You are asking how well the gov can do its job and enforce a law. Your gov has authority on their side and an endless pit of money to investigate anything. The gov could probably motivate a private seller to tell them who they sold the firearm to.

Sungun09
May 6, 2008, 04:54 PM
In Illinois, you are required to keep records of gun sales for 10 years, after that I assume you can burn the receipts

bigdaddydan
May 6, 2008, 05:32 PM
you need to get out of that stupid liberal state and move to a good state if you still want to be able to exercise your constitutional rights........................

wcb
May 6, 2008, 08:55 PM
We need to move to Switzerland where the law dictates that if you're between the ages of 20 ad 42, you're required to have a handgun or rifle in your home.

Thernlund
May 6, 2008, 10:21 PM
We need to move to Switzerland where the law dictates that if you're between the ages of 20 ad 42, you're required to have a handgun or rifle in your home.

But do they have quantity limits?


-T.

wcb
May 6, 2008, 10:26 PM
I seriously doubt it.

Strings
May 6, 2008, 10:27 PM
heh... I have a standing offer to anyone in IL: if you wish, you can store whatever guns you wish with me. I'll even buy a seperate safe for them to reside in, and clean them twice a year (and no, I won't play with your toys)...

Thernlund
May 6, 2008, 10:28 PM
I seriously doubt it.

Heh. It was kind of a half joke.

I was reading about Swiss gun laws. They're great, but I think I'll stay where I'm at. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland


-T.

Jim K
May 6, 2008, 10:37 PM
If the "evil government" really wanted to take your guns, they would simply knock on the door with the end of a tank cannon and ask politely if they could come in and take them, and you would do...what?

They wouldn't care about what papers you have or what used to be legal or who you sold what to, or what it said on some 4473. They would use ground penetrating radar if they thought you had buried your guns.

Next question?

Jim

wcb
May 6, 2008, 11:17 PM
Heh. It was kind of a half joke.

I was reading about Swiss gun laws. They're great, but I think I'll stay where I'm at.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_pol...in_Switzerland

HA!!! I'm wrong; it's 3 guns. Read below. Nice find.

Buying guns
To purchase a firearm in a commercial shop, one needs to have a Waffenerwerbsschein (weapon buying permit). A permit allows the purchase of three firearms. Everyone over the age of 18 who is not psychiatrically disabled (such as having had a history of endangering his own life or the lives of others) or identified as posing security problems, and who has a clean criminal record can request such a permit. The sale of automatic firearms and selective fire weapons is forbidden (as is the sale of certain disabled automatic firearms which have been identified as easily restored to fully automatic capability), unless the buyer has a special collector's license.

To buy a gun from an individual, no permit is needed, but the seller is expected to establish a reasonable certainty that the purchaser will fulfill the above-mentioned conditions. The participants in such a transaction are also required to write down a contract detailing the identities of both vendor and purchaser, the weapon's type, manufacturer, and serial number. The law requires the written contract to be kept for ten years by the buyer and seller. The seller is also required to see some official ID from the purchaser, for such sales are only allowed to Swiss nationals and foreigners with a valid residence permit, with the exception of those foreigners that come from certain countries (Croatia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Turkey, Sri Lanka, Albania, Algeria), to whom such sales are not allowed even if they do have a residence permit. Foreigners without a residence permit or from countries on the ban list must ask for a special permit.

After turning 18, any individual can buy singleshot or semiautomatic long arms (breech-loading or muzzle-loading) without a permit. Likewise, members of a recognized rifle association do not need a buying permit for purchasing antique repeaters, and hunters do not need one for buying typical hunting rifles.

Most types of ammunition are available for commercial sale, including full metal jacket bullet calibres for military-issue weapons; hollow point rounds are only permitted for hunters. Ammunition sales are registered only at the point of sale by recording the buyer's name in a bound book.

These rules will be changed — presumably in 2008 — because Switzerland will be joining the Schengen treaty; and all member countries must adapt some of their laws to a common standard. Following the draft of the Swiss government for the new Waffengesetz (weapons law), these points will change:

Unlawful possession of guns will be punished;
Gun trade among individuals will require a valid buying permit (under today's law, persons with a criminal record can trade guns);
Every gun must be marked with a registered serial number;
Airsoft guns and imitations of real guns will also be governed by the new law;

wcb
May 6, 2008, 11:21 PM
Oh and the Swiss appear to be heading towards gun control now too (go to the site and read). If you're up on what's going on in the World and how far down the path of a one World Government we are; guns will be taken from people worldwide as that's the only way "the people" can stop what is planned and happening. But we wont stop them and they know that.

Kentak
May 7, 2008, 12:11 AM
To the OP, only if your state has gun registration. Most don't.

K

Robert Hairless
May 7, 2008, 12:51 AM
If the "evil government" really wanted to take your guns, they would simply knock on the door with the end of a tank cannon and ask politely if they could come in and take them, and you would do...what?

They wouldn't care about what papers you have or what used to be legal or who you sold what to, or what it said on some 4473. They would use ground penetrating radar if they thought you had buried your guns.

Next question?

Jim

Jim, no offense intended but you and I are so yesterday. I just read here that all you have to do is say this and everything will be okay:

"Oh that gun. No I sold it to someone through an internet deal a long time ago. I dont even know how to contact him. Sorry I cant be of more help to ya."

bond007
May 7, 2008, 01:05 PM
Here in California you can make a request for a list of firearms registered to your name: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/pubfaqs.php#26

Not sure what other states offer this. Since I assume they're tracking as best they can anyways, it's nice that you can at least access the list.

brighamr
May 7, 2008, 01:49 PM
It matters on what state you live in and how you purchase the firearms (FTF for instance)

If you enjoyed reading about "Can the State determine what guns I have?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!