[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

Well, it's ME asking this question after all. Humor me.

Ok, there's been a bunch of different Hand Rifles that have come and go over the years. But none of them seem to do particularlly well, with the exception of the T/C Contender (Which, chambered in .30-30, got me thinking/wishing on the whole concept.) and it's offspring, who's continued success I attribute to their extraordinary variety of caliber choice in spite of what I regard as a prohibitive cost. I'll get them (Contender and Encore) eventually, but I still think they cost too much, and barrels are rarely under $200. Ouch.

XP-100's were discontinued for a time. Silhouetter's brought 'em back.

Pachmayer Dominators are gone.

So is the Clerke X-tender.

And the Springfield Armory S.A.S.S. These were all 1911 adapter kits.

The Lone Eagle is discontinued.

The Ruger Hawkeye was DOA.

Savage Strikers are piddling along. I don't see 'em surviving.

Centerfire Anschutz Exemplars are history. (Dang it, I WANT a .22 Hornet Exemplar!)

Wichita Sillouette pistols are still here, but they have a captive market. They're a small company, too. I think they can survive on a small volume of very good guns, presuming they're still in production. Competitors will pay a premium for the top-end of the market.

Those new Blaser single-shots don't count. They cost, like $2500! (But you can get 'em in .375 H&H. Drool.)


I'm most surprised by the demise of the S.A.S.S.. These were down to $169/unit w/ 1 barrel, with barrels at $99. With calibers like .22 LR, .223, 7mm BR, 7mm-08, the .243, .308, and .358 Winchesters in 15", and .357 and .44 Mags in 10.75", this is the set-up that keeps me somewhat disgusted with the price of T/C's. S.A.S.S.'s are well-known for sub-MOA accuracy, which I can vouch for. And a drop-in kit to turn your sweet-triggered 1911 into a sub-MOA powerhouse for $169, I mean, what's not to like? I'd think everyone with a 1911 would've jumped on this like I did. I was buying other stuff, and therefore missed my chance to get a .44 Mag barrel which disappoints me no end! (Now I can't re-bore it to .444, either.) But their discontinuation caught me by surprise. I thought that these would continue to sell if any Hand Rifle could.

What really drove home the point was the death of the Lone Eagle. I had planned to get one of these, like I plan on getting every kind of Hand Rifle possible. I've heard nothing but good stories about these, and they ran about $300. But they're discontinued, like so many other non-rimfire variants.

It's a fact. Obviously, Hand Rifles do NOT sell well, and the market is severly limited. None of them survive, once the existing demand is filled. I realize that there's exceptioins to this, (Taurus has a whole line of Silhouette revolvers in all sorts of cool calibers, which I NEED but can't buy in my stupid state. Argh!) but this is rather cramping my collecting style, and it is the fault of the world at large for failing to support my ideals of what a handgun should be! How dare they! ;)

I like these things way to much to understand why anyone would pass one up. I am blinded by my enthusiasm, it seems. :banghead:

So explain it to me. :confused: WHY DON'T THESE THINGS SELL? HOW COME YOU DON'T WANT ONE?! :confused: You're not doing your part to support my habit, here! ;););)

[C.R.Sam]

Limited market.

Pretty well covers it.

Bloody well expensive to manufacture a firearm in the U.S.
If the market is small, the rewards are slim to none.

Sam

[rugerfreak]

Uuuummm----well if you want a rifle----you go get a rifle. Stock and all.

[Quartus]

One word: RECOIL.

Not many can handle it. Or rather, not many know how. Most of the macho blustering you hear is just that - blustering. Most are afraid to even try, and few that try stick with it.


Doesn't need to be that way. I'm a beanpole, and I can handle the big stuff with no problem. (Haven't tried a .444 Marlin in a TC, though. I hear it's pretty stout.)

The macho thing is probably why. Most try to prove they can "HANDLE" the recoil by holding it down. So all that energy goes straight back. Ouch.

When I shoot a .45-70 on a TC frame, or a .454 Casull, or whatever, that thing ends up pointing at the sky, or pretty close to a 45 degree angle. Mebbe a bit more. Let it ride! And I can do that all day long without hurting mysefl. Ran through a box of 100 .308 in a Wichita one morning, and enjoyed the last round as much as the first. All of it shot Creedmore.

OTOH, I watched a BIG fella (+300 pounds, maybe 6'6") try a stout loaded .45-70 in a TC, and he kept that barrel down like I keep a .38 down.

But he only fired ONE shot. Kinda went gray and went back to his 9mm. :what:


And this beanpole kept shooting. :D


Except for blazing full auto on someone else's dime, I think shooting a hand cannon is the most fun you can have shooting.

But you gotta Let it ride!

[hillbilly]

I love rifles.

When I want a rifle, I go buy one.....the old fashioned kind that takes two hands?

When I want a handgun, I go buy one, almost always in a handgun caliber.

hillbilly

[hksw]

As others have mentioned, I think (IMO) that there was extremely low demand for handguns with high recoil. At the distances the guns were meant for, why not just get a rifle?

Like you, though, the SASS and the X-tender were on my list. Unfortunately, by the time I got around to them on the list they went away. I think I'll just have to get a TC G2 in their place.

[BlkHawk73]

Although the Lone Eagle is gone, the Competitor is still around. I believe it was designed by a former designer of the LE that went off on his own, amde a few changes. It allows barrel changeing without changing the entire action as on the LE. I've shot them and they're quite accurate. There's one on my "gonna get" list and proberly not very far away. :D
www.competitor-pistol.com/

[Jeeper]

You forgot about the RPM XL. It is mainly a sihlouette gun though also. I think the lack of popularity has to do with what the market wants. Handguns are more difficult to shoot. The average hunter only shoots a box or two of ammo per year. With a handgun they would need to practice more than that or they couldnt hit anything. Look at the popular calibers now. It is all about making it easier for the lazy hunter to take his game. Who really needs a 300 mag for whitetail? It is almost better that fewer people use them because otherwise there would be a lot more wounded animals.

[Kamicosmos]

I think the overall expense of the single shot one frame, many barrels is what keeps their popularity down.

I bought a frame and a nice barrel, rings and scope. It is my most expensive firearm! My plan was to have it be a handload test platform, and maybe hunt a little with it. But, if I want another barrel....I gotta shell out around 200 bucks for it. Then, more for scope and rings. Or fancy iron sights.

They also have a limited use in my opinion. My contender in .44 is rarely shot, mainly because I have a pistol and a rifle chambered in .44, so the Contender doesn't get used much. If I want longer range, beyond 100-150 yards...I'm going with a Rifle. Anything under 100 yards...my pistols will cover it.

Also, I have often thought of selling my Contender...but it's like a custom built hot rod. You'll never get out of a Contender package what you put into it as far as money goes.

Don't get me wrong here, I like my Contender very much, and it is well worth the money! I just can't see shelling out 'a new gun' in money just to get another caliber setup for it.

[Gewehr98]

Especially after the demise of Elgin Gates. IHMSA took a long while to rebound from his untimely departure, some say it still hasn't quite gotten back up to the earlier days.

I kept my 7-R Wichita Silhouette, but they're no longer being made. The Wichita bolt-action handguns are still being manufactured, but the big stainless 1911-style tip-up gun is long out of production.

http://mauser98.com/wichitarightplonk.jpg

Who can forget the RPM XL, the MOA Maximum, those Dan Wesson SuperMags, and all the handcannons HRG mentioned above?

Does Savage still make their Striker bolt-action handcannon?

And Weatherby's bolt-action version?

[jem375]

Of all the guns in my safe, there is only 1 gun that I would never sell and it is a SSK Industries 375JDJ handcannon made by JD Jones......this is my deer, elk, moose, elephant gun all rolled into one......When I write elephant, just dreaming of course....I also have a Savage Striker in 308, and a T/C Contender in 44 mag, and really like them all......one of these days will find a nice XP-100 and will probably get it rechambered into something I think I need.............

[Pappy John]

So explain it to me. WHY DON'T THESE THINGS SELL? HOW COME YOU DON'T WANT ONE?! You're not doing your part to support my habit, here!

Yeahbut..... when I think of the benefits of a handgun, I think "easily portable...can keep it about my person leaving hands free for other jobs, capable of firing quickly with a single hand if need be" and these just don't qualify. Heck, even my scoped Redhawk doesn't quite pass the second criteria. But these things are just so large that sling carry is often in order, and if I have to do that, then why wouldn't I go with a full rifle, and give myself better odds with a moving target if need be.

Niche, sedentary target.

[jem375]

I use a bandoleer chest holster for my big scoped handguns......I hunt mostly from tree stands and most shots are within 65 yards....a handgun is easier to swing from the tree stand especially if they are behind or to the extreme side........and the holster keeps your hands free when dragging out the deer.........when I am walking to and from the tree stand, I carry it with both hands just like I would a rifle anyway...........I am giving all my hunting rifles to the grandkids and am using pistols only now...........

[Glockster35]

There just doesn't seem to be much of a market for these weapons.

Very few people actuallyhunt with them (at least as far as I know).

I want one in .308, scoped for boar hunting, but it's low on my priority list right now. I got guns to customize while I am away from them for 4 years.

[Gordon]

I got an XP-100R in .35 Rem. because I love the caliber and the 600 action! I love my T/C's . They are all banned in California for new gun sales(and you can;t bring in used ones).:cuss: These guns don't sell well to run of the mill customers, they are special interest only IMHO!:cool:

[BigG]

My observation of the species is they have all the bulk and unhandiness of a rifle combined with the striking power of a magnum revolver, in other words the lowest common denominator of both types of arms. They are a specialty gun and not everybody's cup of tea. A couple of friends have had them and I was only impressed by the guy who could get groups out of his in 30'06 at 100 yds off the bench. It had the breech that you twist one way to open and reverse to close. Had to be separately cocked with a cocking lever on the side like a *cough* air gun, also.

[Stevie-Ray]

I've said this before, but I have a Contender with a .30-30 barrel which I love. 4x Leupold completes the package and shooting paper with it is a blast. (Spotting scope a must!) The same gun with the .45-70 barrel is a downright nightmare! Unpleasant as Hell with Winchester or worse, Remington 300 gr loads. Popgun with 405 gr loads, but not very accurate. I stick to the .30-30, though it's been years. Like to get a .223 barrel soon.

[caz223]

One of the big advantages of a rifle is the shoulder stock. Another is the long sight radius of iron or peep sights.
Without these two advantages, why would these hand rifles sell?

[ddc]

I'll add my vote for the niche market explanation. It's a pretty specialized application.

If you are "in" that niche then it makes all the sense in the world to you.

If you are not then you're one of the people asking "why in the world would you want to do something like that?"

[B27]

They don't all pound you with recoil.
Some just blind and deafen you with muzzle flash and blast. :)

http://www.fototime.com/0E551CDAB823CF1/standard.jpg

Actually the market is so limited I'm sorta surprised at the number that have been produced. Other than the occasional Contender, I have yet to see anything like my XP-100 being fired at my gun club.

[Oleg Volk]

I bet sales of single-shot pistols will rise sharply after people read "Enemies Foreign and Domestic" ;)

[Gordon]

B-27 : is that a Western Gunstocks Stock on that XP? Sure is pretty!:)

[B27]

Gordon-
No, that's a Fajen. Midway was practically giving them away on sale a few years back.
Wonder why? I'd imagine there would be a HUGE market for them.:D

[tex_n_cal]

This one is in CA, but it's not for sale:D One of the last XP100's made, and maybe the best. Sure would like to have one in 7mm-08, or .358 Winchester:evil:

The muzzle blast on a 14" .22-250 will truly give you Inner Beauty, I might add, but recoil is no big deal.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=29315

[happy old sailor]

have an old (60's) XP Fireball rechambered to .223 and a TC 30/30. the XP is deadly and the TC is no slouch. neither will be for sale or trade in my lifetime.

some days i want to go blasting and some i get serious. i just like shooting and will not knock anyone's preference.

[B27]

My old XP is still in .221 Fireball, but I occasionally threaten to have it rebarelled to .222 Remington.

[euclid]

I think they look gay, like duck bill gay. Hell, I would pose the question: Why would anyone WANT to buy one?


cheers

[B27]

http://www.utm.edu/departments/ed/cece/fowl/malla.JPEG

Please, think of the ducklings. :neener:

[euclid]

B27 - great reply!

Personally, I think ducks look cool, especially wood ducks and redheads, but you have to admit: a duck bill is pretty gay.:D

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

Just to be odd, and 'cuz it's my thread, I give you this.

Here in Beneficeint Palo Alto of the Rose Colored Glasses, I raised ducks in the backyard for something like 22 years! Ducks live a long time! We had a duck that apparently changed sex on us, ( It got a deeper quack, and developed curly tail feathers, a male trait. It also quit laying eggs.) but it wasn't gay. Maybe "Trans-gandered", (As in goose. Had those too.) but not gay. I think. ;)

Hokay, back on topic. As an FYI, I don't hunt. At all. I am a purely recreational shooter who likes to punch paper, plink, and be prepared for the collapse of civilization. I understand hunting requirements, but dismiss them out of hand as they don't apply to me. If I do go hunting one of these years, I'll take a rifle. As I understand it, hunting's hard enough without adding "challenges" like handguns to a first hunt.

I must say I got a bigger response to this question than I anticipated. Thanks one and all for your explanations. I shoot handrifles for the "Whuwazzat?!" factor at the range on top of trying to actually hit stuff.

That, and I'm a die-hard non-conformist. I want what's different BECAUSE it's different Handrifles are plenty different, as I almost NEVER see them at the range. I find that interesting in the context of alloy-framed magnum revolvers, which decisively illustrates the change in marketing strategy from the big manufacturers. Somewhere in there, somebody decided that there really was a market for j-frame .357's that hadn't existed before. From that, I'll extrapolate to the explosion of handrifles and new magnum rifle rounds, along with the Ever-Lighter-Boltgun that everyone has a variant of.

But it kinda bombed. No-one really LIKES shooting these flyweight guns, and the concept is getting lukewarm reception.

Fundamentally, I don't care. If handrifles aren't being bought, or are being sold because they're awful to shoot and dreadfully impractical, so much the better. That many more for me to buy just as soon as I'm fabulously wealthy.

I oughta get into handgun silhouette shooting. It's got what I like most about shooting: Handrifles and ringing reactive targets.

[Gewehr98]

Why would anyone WANT to buy one?

Never understood why anybody wanted to buy a Desert Eagle, too.

Or a Jennings/Lorcin/Bryco/Davis/Raven for the home defense gun.

Or a .458 Winchester Magnum Model 70, when they live in a metropolitan area and don't hunt.

Or why anybody wants a car or motorcycle that can go darned near twice the speed limit.

(I'll give you a hint, it's because you can)

But the term you used to describe the handcannon in question would probably not be appropriate in describing the motivation for it's purchase.

(As I think about taking my Desert Eagle and the above-pictured Wichita out for some 200 yard steel silhouette practice this upcoming 3-day weekend...)

HRG - Funny you should mention waterfowl, my family had pet mallards and snow geese, and not one of the drakes ever got upset that his bill was considered gay. ;)

[scotjute]

As one who has considered buying one and didn't, my reasons are as follows :
They're expensive.
They're heavier that I had imagined, 5-6 lbs.
They just didn't quite seem to have the right "feel" for me when holding them.
I found other guns that served the same purposes that I liked better.

(What I opted for instead was 20" barrell bolt-action carbine in 6.5x55 and Uberti Rolling Block pistol, 9" barrell, in .22 mag.(which is sort of close to the hand rifle idea)).

[Hand_Rifle_Guy]

FWIW, the S.A.S.S. kits weigh in at 4 lb.s 2 oz, a not-unreasonable burden. "Specially configured to enhance your recoil experience." Susequent review puts that at a fairly typical weight for the class.

^This guy^ has a Rolling Block Pistol. No Fair! I need a pair of those, in .22 Hornet, since I can't get the rumored-but-never-produced .45 Colts. (Original caliber for R.B.pistols was .50 rim- or centerfire. Nice original pistols go for about 3 grand, though. Obsoleted by revolvers before they were even made, there were only something like 5000 produced for Army and Navy service trials that failed to land a contract.)

An additional odness I shal have to build is a Trapdoor pistol. Springfield Armory cobbeled up *one* back in the day for prototype testing. It had lockwork from an 1868 rifle and the stock was glued-up out of three pieces of wood. It was chambered in .50 Army centerfire, NOT .50-70 like the original rifle. I'm not sure what caliber I'd chamber mine in, probably .45 Colt. But first, I need to procure an 1868 Trapdoor action, and a good machinist to make a barrel. The stock I'll make myself, albeit from one piece of wood rather than sectioned rifle stocks.

BTW, if amyone should ever come across a Trapdoor Pistol that's a .45-70, it's a Hollywood propgun that did substitute duty for a muzzle-loader but didn't take five minutes to reload. (Trapdoors make dandy logistically-enhanced muskets, too. They have a distincly "muzzle-loader" profile that looks appropiate on the silver screen.) There are NO rifle-caliber pistols produced by Springfield Armory. They only made one, and it's currently living in the Prototype Room/Museum at the Armory. Since there's only one, naturally I have to have one. Or one like it.

[thebear101]

I have an xp-100 in 7-08 (rechambering 7mmbr) and this isa stout kicker, accurate and also wade down with leopald 2X scope see through scope mounts peep sight and a jp red dot sight on top of the scope also has by pod, I use it for hunting, I also have 7 more xps one in 221 3 in 7mmbr 2 in 35 rem, and one in 300 Win Mag, from Andy

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

I bought an ar-15 pistol from bushmaster and it soured me so much i refuse to try any other rifle turned pistol. i know they are handy and all but i dont like the thought of less velocity for more money

[Okiecruffler]

I usually try not to respond to threads older than my youngest son, but I never miss a chance to show off my favorite girl...
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h234/okiecruffler/100_2229_edited.jpg
1/4" groups at 100 yrds, what's not to like. You can keep your goofy looking rifles.

[Timthinker]

The topic of hand rifles is one that has been upon my mind recently, no doubt due to my budding interest in the Ruger Charger. I hope the moderators will allow this thread to continue for a while since it might generate some new thoughts. Thanks.


Timthinker

[theNoid]

El Noido here would love to have a Lone Eagle or Competitor in .243

[feets]

I've become rather fond of my Encore.
The 22-250 is a riot to shoot and very well mannered. I've used it to thin the herd of rampaging bowling pins out to 200 yards. Now with a scope, I'll take it even farther.
My 308 feels like a mid sized revolver in 357. It packs the power of a rifle and pretty good accuracy too!
The 460 is accurate but ugly. I don't care for the recoil at all. I'm exploring integral muzzle brakes to tame it down. It lacks the heft, pressure venting cylinder gap, and muzzle brake of the XVR. I generally trap 200 to 300 fps higher in the Encore than the revolver.

I've got to be careful or I'll end up owning all kinds of barrels for this thing.

http://members.aol.com/kalexan857/guns/encore.jpg

[Matt-J2]

I want a Contender/G2 in .45/70. And of course, I want to learn how to shoot it properly, so I can enjoy it for a long while.
I think I'd also like one in .22 Hornet. That little cartridge is so intriguing, and I've never fired anything chambered for it.

[Stevie-Ray]

I want a Contender/G2 in .45/70. And of course, I want to learn how to shoot it properly, so I can enjoy it for a long while.Trust me, no you don't!

Unless you plan on a steady diet of factory 405 gr loads.

[katastrof0]

Don forget MOA

http://www.moaguns.com/moa_max.html

BB John

[Okiecruffler]

And for those with descriminating taste, the Kimber.
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7725729

[Walkalong]

I have often considered getting one. Should be fun. I like your set up Okiecruffler, but would like a low recoil caliber. What caliber is yours?

[Okiecruffler]

6TCU and that rig weighs a hair over 9 pounds. Recoil isn't an issue.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Hmmmmmm.

1. I'm most surprised by the demise of the S.A.S.S.. These were down to $169/unit w/ 1 barrel, with barrels at $99. With calibers like .22 LR, .223, 7mm BR, 7mm-08, the .243, .308, and .358 Winchesters in 15", and .357 and .44 Mags in 10.75", this is the set-up that keeps me somewhat disgusted with the price of T/C's. S.A.S.S.'s are well-known for sub-MOA accuracy, which I can vouch for. And a drop-in kit to turn your sweet-triggered 1911 into a sub-MOA powerhouse for $169, I mean, what's not to like? I'd think everyone with a 1911 would've jumped on this like I did. I was buying other stuff, and therefore missed my chance to get a .44 Mag barrel which disappoints me no end! (Now I can't re-bore it to .444, either.) But their discontinuation caught me by surprise. I thought that these would continue to sell if any Hand Rifle could.


I think the problem with THAT particular company is marketing budget or marketing strategy. For example, I've never heard of them until now. And I read a fair amount of gun stuff. Sounds interesting enough that I probably would have wanted one. Marketing. Exposure. Advertising. Paying retailers to carry your stuff. Gotta have it.

2. As for the rest, I dunno. If shooting from the bench, these things are a hoot. But why don't I want one? Because I'm *mostly* about hunting, and I want a SHOULDER stock for stability in the hunting field. If if using a field rest, a shoulder stock is better than no shoulder stock. For example, buttstock buried in your shoulder, and forestock against a tree, trumps a hand cannon merely held against a tree, for a field rest. Beyond that, it irritates me to "waste" the velocity/performance capability of rifle rounds due to a castrated barrel. Also, muzzle blast and recoil are reduced with full-sized guns - more pleasant to shoot means more fun. Beyond that, the incredible inertia (market share) of T/Cs is hard to overcome- and they justifiably won this inertia, due to their very high quality/accuracy, as well as extreme modularity. I wouldn't MIND having a hand cannon, but I've got an ever-growing list of long guns I want badly first. I did come *this* close to getting a "Thor" pistol from CDNN in .45-70 when they were on closeout, but couldn't quite justify it in the budget.

The UPSIDE (selling point) of a handgun like this for hunters, is being lighter and more packable than a rifle. Easy to put into a body holster and climb into your treestand. Lighter for a looooooong hike. I'd actually want one if hunting woods, where shots are limited to 75 yards or so, and if I were hiking many miles to the honey hole. But I'm not hiking that far, so...... There IS still a slight appeal of not having to tie a string to my rifle and pull it up after getting in the stand (instead, putting the handgun in a pack or holster) - not only is this extra time and hassle saved, using a string to pull up your weaon also createso more movement and sound potential which can scare game (i.e. if the rifle bumps your stand on the way up making noise, for example). So, in a perfect world, with a COMPLETE inventory of guns to cover all hunting situations, I'd like one. That's why I almost got the Thor pistol. But it's a low priority at the moment.

[Okiecruffler]

The big ones aren't much good for off hand shooting, that's why I have this one for walking about...
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h234/okiecruffler/MissMaxine.jpg
But mostly I like my pistols because I don't have a rifle that can do this with 10 rounds at 100 yrds.
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h234/okiecruffler/308postal.jpg

I'll give up a few fps in trade to being about to decide which ventricle I want to park my bullet in.

[thebear101]

If you hand load, you can get some fps,s back