I am going to list several rifles and carbines, and while they are all adequate for hunting, I want to know which of these if the BEST candidates for long range accuracy shooting.
Please list them in order of: The first: the best, the last, the least.
Rifles:
1853 Enfield(Euroarms), 1853 Enfield(ArmiSport) 1853 Enfield 2 band (Euroarms)
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Mike OTDP
May 4, 2008, 07:33 PM
Unless you are desperate, I would not use any of them at 1000 yards. Right now, the rifle to beat is the Pedersoli Gibbs rifle...the long-range muzzleloading shooters are using these or custom rifles.
Rachen
May 4, 2008, 07:41 PM
Unless you are desperate, I would not use any of them at 1000 yards. Right now, the rifle to beat is the Pedersoli Gibbs rifle...the long-range muzzleloading shooters are using these or custom rifles.
I HAVE A DREAM......................................................:D of taking an Enfield to a modern benchrest competition, where you will find customized target guns of all shapes and sizes, and using a 19th century rifled musket to beat them all at 1000 yards and hold a new world record.:D:D
Of course, I am just dreaming of doing that, but it doesn't mean it couldn't be done.
Any insights? Using a Whitworth would be cheating, because none of the other guns have hexagonal twist.
StrawHat
May 4, 2008, 08:00 PM
Not sure how using a Whitworth would be cheating? Unless you mean cheating yourself.
As Mike OTDP said
Right now, the rifle to beat is the Pedersoli Gibbs rifle...the long-range muzzleloading shooters are using these or custom rifles.
Why handicap yourself with the Whitworth.
I used to belief it was the end-all do-all rifle until I was handed the tail end charlie award.
Really, the Gibbs rifle or a custom rifle are the way to go.
Rachen
May 4, 2008, 08:04 PM
Really, the Gibbs rifle or a custom rifle are the way to go.
I agree, but it doesn't take much pain either to accurize a utility rifle-musket so that it will be a tack driver on the firing line. By "accurizing", I don't mean any barrel jobs or rifling jobs either, you have to use a certain load and position your sights a certain way until you become accustomed to it.
Does anybody here have an Enfield from Euroarms? Just curious to how it performs on the field.
scrat
May 5, 2008, 12:11 AM
I dont see how you can not do it. As last i saw when i was doing some research a few months ago. There used to be matches in the 1800's at ranges around 600 yards. Through a muzzle loader. With very primitive scopes. So i believe it can be done. It will just take some time to develop the right load. I would almost bet you could do this with most .50 cal muzzleloaders. In the end its usually not the rifle but the person pulling the trigger.
Jim Watson
May 5, 2008, 01:13 AM
Rachen,
From your list ONLY, forget the carbines.
Sorry, I do not know the relative merits of Euroarms and Armi Sport.
From what I have read, the Whitworth was outmoded and outshot within 5 years of its introduction by Rigby, Alex Henry, and Gibbs.
You can find old accounts of the .577 versus the .451 "smallbores". I doubt you could group on anything smaller than a squad of infantry at 1000 yards with a .577.
scrat
May 5, 2008, 01:32 AM
my question is what kind of scope would you use for 1000 yards.
Steve499
May 5, 2008, 10:05 AM
Euroarms makes a .451 volunteer rifle with Alexander Henry rifling which looks, to me, exactly like a .577 Enfield. There may be better quality manufacturers out there, but you couldn't tell that by only looking at the Volunteer rifle I have. It's about as good as one could get.
During Whitworth's experimentation, his firing of the .577 Enfield and of rifles made to his own design was conducted from what amounted to be a machine rest. The dispersion of the fall of the rounds fired from both at long range was recorded. I can't cite them right now but a google search should turn them up pretty quick. Anyway, the .577 minie ball wasn't capable at long range of maintaining any useful measure of accuracy and was totally eclipsed by the Whitworth. I don't believe that fact had anything at all to do with his polygonal rifling but rather to it's fast twist which stabilized a very long bullet with a much greater sectional density than the then standard .577. At long range the minie bullet with it's relatively low rpm doesn't remain stable and starts going everywhere, apparently.
Your desire to compete in a long range match with a service type rifle will probably require you to be firing a long bullet from a fast twist barrel. As far as I know, the only two which fit that standard are the Whitworth and the Volunteer. Both can equal the accuracy of the Gibbs but will be a little more reluctant to give it up due to full length stocks, barrel bands, etc. You can shoot a minie rifle at 1000 yards but the laws of physics stacks the deck against putting any two rounds very close to one another.
Jim Watson
May 5, 2008, 11:05 AM
Agreed, the so-called Volunteer rifle repro is nice quality.
"Volunteer" is kind of a misnomer. Rifles bought by the British Volunteer regiments of the day had to shoot the government ammunition with .577 "Minie ball." (Which was neither a ball nor the original Minie' design.)
The "smallbore" .45s were known as Military Rifles, or if with better sights, Military Target Rifles.
The .577 was a 500 yard rifle at best. A Whitworth and its .45 competitors were good solid thousand yard guns.
By the way, scrat, you don't have to have a scope to hit at 1000 yards.
Rachen
May 5, 2008, 11:58 AM
my question is what kind of scope would you use for 1000 yards.
A Davidson scope, perhaps. These are very intricate brass machines, and when I read about them for the first time, I was very surprised, that they were made in the 19th century. The mechanism inside that thing would definitely look like a product of the space age if seen by an amateur
Davidsons were supposed to be mounted on Whitworths, but the Enfield has almost the same configuration as it's small-bore bigger brother.
Rachen
May 5, 2008, 12:02 PM
Your desire to compete in a long range match with a service type rifle will probably require you to be firing a long bullet from a fast twist barrel. As far as I know, the only two which fit that standard are the Whitworth and the Volunteer. Both can equal the accuracy of the Gibbs but will be a little more reluctant to give it up due to full length stocks, barrel bands, etc. You can shoot a minie rifle at 1000 yards but the laws of physics stacks the deck against putting any two rounds very close to one another.
The Volunteer rifle seems to be a good choice. The one pet peeve about the Minie is that it's shape and it's expansion as it travels through air, would likely counteract the rifling at extended ranges, causing it to tumble. However, I am not sure if the Minie's weight can compensate for it's lack of aerodynamics. It was absolutely good for 600 yards or less, but beyond that, it's performance and flightpath would likely be unpredictable.
Mike OTDP
May 5, 2008, 02:02 PM
A Whitworth would do...but I'd strongly recommend looking around for an English-made Parker-Hale rifle. Better quality.
Minies won't tumble...they have good directional stability. Unfortunately, they also have tremendous base drag.
Again, you can't go wrong by doing what the top-flight long-range competitors are using. Try lrml.org for more information.
rusty from italy
May 6, 2008, 03:57 AM
Euroarms volunteer are all still made with the parker hale barrel buyed at the time when PH ceased the production in UK
The longest barrel for the three band are out, now like new is possible to buy only two band Henry rifle!
The withworth barrel are actually made in Italy (but i'm not really sure of it)
The so called volunteer need some job around it for a god performance!
I own one, and a good match of barrel in stock channel with epoxy bedding under the tang the breech and the band made it a good shooter!
Last firing session give good results with only 50 grains of FFFg (swiss brand) under a 475 grains Lyman bullet with milk jug card wad unter the bullet!
Inportant advice, much grease under the barrel and let it always in place also for cleaning, i clean it with a rubber hose in the nipple and a bucket of water.
Only big trouble with this rifle is the short life of the standard nipple (iron or mild steel i presume) after 15-20 shot its blown out :mad:
ciao
Rusty
Threeband
May 6, 2008, 09:02 AM
I suspect your fantasy is doomed to remain a fantasy. There are reasons that competitors use the equipment they do. They are realists, rather than romantics.
Still, a couple points:
The two-band Enfields have thicker, stiffer barrels than the three-bands. That's why the NSSA shooters favor them. (And they shoot at 50 and 100 yards.)
The threeband Enfield is a beautiful, graceful rifle, but that long, skinny barrel is a problem. What's even worse is that long, skinny wooden stock, constantly swelling and shifting. Tie it all together with three barrel bands, and you compound the challenge. That's what Rusty was talking about, with his references to bedding and sealing the forend with grease.
You'll have to do something with the sights too.
Anyway, the .577 couldn't compete with the .45 in it's day.
Steve499
May 6, 2008, 09:38 AM
Rusty, you can get a platinum lined nipple which will last almost indefinitely. There's some evidence that using Swiss 3f will erode those, also, but with other makers, all granulations, and Swiss larger than 3f, they will last thousands of shots.
http://www.jcunard.com/firearms.htm
Joe Hepsworth sells them, link to his website for the phone number and call him. He's a true gentleman.
Mike OTDP
May 6, 2008, 10:31 AM
Concur on the reference to Joe Hepsworth. Great guy.
rusty from italy
May 6, 2008, 11:03 AM
I know Steve, but i shot my volunteer 3-4 times in a year, and don't play match :) Last year i went to euroarms and i bringed at home 30 standard nipple for a few euros, at the time i don't feel the need of a platinum lined nipple :)
(at the moment my favorite muzzleloader rifle is a .58 colt signature series short musket, only 200 ever mede like replica, and i'm having a lot of fun with a Uberti win. '73 buyed last mounth)
I have heard about swiss FFFg (i'm in the mailing list of LRML)
I can confirm that a standard nipple with FFg is good for 50-70 shot, with 3f 20 shot is the max!
Other brand here (remember i'm in Italy) are french powder (vectan) and german (Wano) but are higher price and lower quality VS the Swiss!
Thanks for the remind of the nipple :)
ciao
Rusty
Pancho
May 6, 2008, 02:48 PM
Just curious, I wonder what kind of drop you would figure for 1000 yds with a muzzleloader.
sundance44s
May 6, 2008, 03:11 PM
Pancho ..the drop in serious at 1,000 yards furthest I`ve shot black powder was with my 45/70 black powder cartridge ...here`s what I discovered , and didn`t even want to do further test ...from a bench ..my .405 gr bullets with 65 grs of 3f goex under them dropped 18 inches at 200 yards with the rifle sighted in at 100 yards . The rifle shoots 3 inches high at 50 yards .
With that much drop , it`s like lobbing bullets instead of aiming them at 1,000 yards ...History tells us that a fellow knocked a Indian off his horse at 1,500 yards with a sharps rifle ..lucky shot , fellow said he knew he couldn`t do it again ...but the Army was there and wrote an account of it and walked off the distance .
Jim Watson
May 6, 2008, 03:29 PM
Actual drop below the line of the bore of a typical BPCR bullet like a .45-90 is about 150 feet at 1000 yards.
Assuming you were zeroed at 1000 as a target shooter would be, the midrange trajectory above the line of sight would be about 50 feet.
A "smallbore" muzzleloader like the Gibbs is shooting about the same as that.
Pancho
May 6, 2008, 06:11 PM
holly cow 50 feet! if you shot a man at 1000 yds. the forensic guys would think he was shot from a plane.
Steve499
May 6, 2008, 06:36 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember reading that 1000 yard targets fired at with .45 caliber rifles of whichever loading preference, will have an oblong hole when actually hit due to the steep downward angle of the trajectory way out there.
Rachen
May 6, 2008, 07:04 PM
Speaking of bullet drop, you are going to have to play artilleryman if you want to take advantage of the bullet's flight and arch momentum.
Once you find out what load you are going to use, the issue now is to be able to aim at a certain point ABOVE the target, so the bullet will take up an arc trajectory, then come down, and then, CLANG!!! Strike that steel buffalo or clay pigeon with AUTHORITY. Of course, that is going to take a certain amount of trial and error at the range before I am ready to join the firing line.
The threeband Enfield is a beautiful, graceful rifle, but that long, skinny barrel is a problem. What's even worse is that long, skinny wooden stock, constantly swelling and shifting. Tie it all together with three barrel bands, and you compound the challenge. That's what Rusty was talking about, with his references to bedding and sealing the forend with grease.
Whats that? Is the forend of the Enfield that fragile? Do you think they will crack, or fall loose, or something?
mykeal
May 6, 2008, 07:32 PM
The issue isn't cracking or loosening, it's barrel harmonics. At long ranges barrel dynamics can have a significant effect on projectile trajectory.
Threeband
May 6, 2008, 08:20 PM
Is the forend of the Enfield that fragile? Do you think they will crack, or fall loose, or something?
No, but it will shift with changes in humidity. That thin barrel will be whipping around like a noodle with every shot. The barrel bands will dampen vibration in constantly changing ways.
Get a Threeband. Take it to the range on six consecutive weekends. See if it isn't shooting a little differently each time. Now try to adjust your sights to compensate. You can't!
the issue now is to be able to aim at a certain point ABOVE the target...
That's what adjustable sights are for.
Listen, if you really want to show up those know-it-all 1000 yard riflemen with their fancy-schmancy modern guns, why mess around with half measures? Why not use a matchlock arquebus?
Yup. The 1000-yard rifles of the Long-Range Muzzle-Loading Team have VERY heavy barrels and half-stocks for precisely that reason.
4v50 Gary
May 6, 2008, 09:55 PM
The chunk guns with barrels that look like a drive shaft do well at 1,000 yards, but there is a price-weight & portability. Custom gun makers will make one for you and if you ever get out to Friendship (IN) for the (blackpowder) National Matches, you'll see them on the firing line.
The British Whitworth was capable of hitting at 1,000 and considering their weight and portability, were the preferred (and highly desirable) guns of the Confederate sharpshooter.
Threeband
May 6, 2008, 10:19 PM
But notice that none of those 1000 yard rifles uses minie balls. The heavy powder charges would blow the skirts of a minie, and besides, you need all the sectional density you can get.
scrat
May 6, 2008, 10:24 PM
wow kep this up. this is some good reading here.
Rachen
May 6, 2008, 10:49 PM
I am starting of thinking about getting the Whitworth. Right now, I am aware of only two manufacturers building them: Gibbs/Parker-Hale and Euroarms. According to Dixie, the Euroarms is built with the exact tooling located in Birmingham, England, just minus the Parker-Hale trademarks.
I was looking at a Whitworth round just before, and it has a very long construction, sleek, almost like the modern .308 or .30-.06 match bullet instead of the Minie, which looks more like a MINIVAN minus the wheels.
No, but it will shift with changes in humidity. That thin barrel will be whipping around like a noodle with every shot. The barrel bands will dampen vibration in constantly changing ways.
Wow. Before this, I was only minutely aware of the issue with expansion and contraction with the barrel, I heard many match shooters talk about how leaving a rifle in the sun too long will affect accuracy.
Listen, if you really want to show up those know-it-all 1000 yard riflemen with their fancy-schmancy modern guns, why mess around with half measures? Why not use a matchlock arquebus?
Hehehe, if someone makes one with WHITWORTH rifling, it'll sure be interesting to try it out.
Threeband
May 7, 2008, 01:27 AM
Wow. Before this, I was only minutely aware of the issue with expansion and contraction with the barrel, I heard many match shooters talk about how leaving a rifle in the sun too long will affect accuracy.
EVERYTHING affects accuracy. You could go nuts!
Expansion and contraction is a big issue with all wooden stocks. That's what glass bedding and is intended to address. That's why you see so many synthetic stocks these days, on hunting as well as target rifles. Wood is beautiful, but it has Problems.
The Whitworth uses a special polygonal bullet, or at least the originals did. You need a special mold for it. Solid base, of course: i.e., not a minie.
Getting into the new-fangled breechloaders, those Trapdoor Springfields were known for excellent long range accuracy. I have a long article somewhere on the subject of tests conducted on Long Island with the Trapdoor at over 1000 yards, back in the 1880s, I think. Maybe I can dig it up and post the reference.
You should read up on the original Creedmore matches between the British and the American teams, back in the 1870s. The Americans used Remington rolling blocks; I think the British used Sharps, but I might be wrong. Try this:
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember reading that 1000 yard targets fired at with .45 caliber rifles of whichever loading preference, will have an oblong hole when actually hit due to the steep downward angle of the trajectory way out there.
These are not mortars or even howitzers. By calculation and actual test, a black powder bullet from a .45 at 1000 yards is coming in at an angle of only about 4.5 degrees above the horizontal. A little more or less depending on whch .45 and what bullet, but it runs 4 to 5 degrees. This would apply pretty much the same to a .451 muzzle loader as to a .45-70 or .45-110. That does not ovalize the holes very much. The range test was done with two targets about 6 feet apart over the pits, and measuring the actual drop from 1000 to 1002 yards.
Threeband
May 7, 2008, 09:28 AM
Just to clarify what I said about glass bedding, (although I don't have any glass-bedded rifles, so what do I know?):
Barrels are typically free-floated, so they touch nothing, or set up with a single pressure point, often carefully adjusted with shims. Actions are often glass bedded, as well as other critical spots.
Anyway, these problems are what RustyfromItaly was talking about in his post above:... a good match of barrel in stock channel with epoxy bedding under the tang the breech and the band made it a good shooter!
... much grease under the barrel and let it always in place also for cleaning
In other words, he never removes the barrel from the stock, now that he has it "settled in."
I once thought about installing three hidden pressure/support points beneath the three bands, with hidden adjustment screws in the ramrod channel. One reason I never did is because it's a completely absurd idea.
Steve499
May 7, 2008, 10:35 AM
Thanks for the information, Jim. I may have read that on the net and you know what THAT means.
My two band .451 Volunteer wasn't performing anything like I expected it to. There are so @#$*^% many variables and I only have one mold so I could never be sure the bullet itself, of whatever alloy, wasn't the problem. I managed to ring my barrel and had to have it relined so the Alexander Henry rifling is gone.
The 'new' barrel shot no better than the original until I worked on the bedding and even now, it is very sensitive to hand placement. Resting on a sandbag at any point forward of the rear band changes the point of impact. It shoots best when hand held on the checkered portion behind the rear band, and the hand rested on the sandbag. The barrel is free floated from the rear band forward with a shim exerting upward pressure at the nose cap. It shoots pretty good like that if you just don't touch the stock forward of the rear band. If I only intended to shoot targets with it, I'd get rid of the full length stock and give it a Gibbs look, but I hunt with it and need to keep the ram rod with the rifle.
But....it's very rewarding at times. I was working on getting my tang sight calibrated and set it by guess and by golly when I moved from 300 to 400 yards. A 16 inch solid black bull gives the same sight picture in the tang and globe at 400 as a 4 inch circle does at 100, so it really isn't any more difficult, aiming wise, than shooting at shorter range, just need the wind to cooperate. Anyway my very first sighter at 400 was an X. That's just way cool to do with a muzzle loader!
Rachen
May 7, 2008, 01:21 PM
Getting into the new-fangled breechloaders, those Trapdoor Springfields were known for excellent long range accuracy. I have a long article somewhere on the subject of tests conducted on Long Island with the Trapdoor at over 1000 yards, back in the 1880s, I think. Maybe I can dig it up and post the reference.
There is an article about that in Dixie Gun Work's Black Powder Annual. I have every single edition published since 1987. I am going to find it tonight and post the edition and issue tomorrow.
I am also aware that the Whitworth uses special bullets. Dixie carries a specialty mould and mould prep for these things. Whitworth rifling is already built into the slug before it is loaded.
StrawHat
May 7, 2008, 02:35 PM
Here's a link to a report of the Sandy Hook Trials.
Great link.
Had already read it before, do not forget to go back to the 'index' in that site.
There you will find more interesting historical stories.
Hildo
sundance44s
May 7, 2008, 04:55 PM
Thinking about a Whitworth ?? Check this one out , I`ve been drooling over it for a month now , wish someone would buy it so I can stop wishing ...http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(gqi3lx452tfxa43oaqkacmz5))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=12&subId=83&styleId=290&partNum=AAF-374
sojournerhome
May 7, 2008, 05:08 PM
That Whiteworthooks so cool.
Was worth the look.
Steve499
May 7, 2008, 06:38 PM
I am also aware that the Whitworth uses special bullets. Dixie carries a specialty mould and mould prep for these things. Whitworth rifling is already built into the slug before it is loaded.
Those Whitworth molds and the six sided bullets they throw sure are sexy but regular bullets shoot equally as well from a Whitworth, according to all reports. The 'bumping up' which occurs when the powder ignites will apparently expand a round bullet to fill a six sided bore as easily as it does to expand the bullet into the grooves of conventional rifling. Given the price I've seen for the Whitworth molds, I'd be inclined to give regular bullets from a cheaper mold a trial before I spring for one of those.
There may be a Whitworth in my future. I had the tore-betweens when I got the Volunteer but I can feel the old acquisition gene kicking up again. Someone stop me before I spend again!
hildo
May 7, 2008, 08:00 PM
The 'bumping up' which occurs when the powder ignites will apparently expand a round bullet to fill a six sided bore as easily as it does to expand the bullet into the grooves of conventional rifling.
Then I have a question.
When a bullet 'bumps up' that much, why is it so important to slug a barrel and then choose a +.001" or so larger bullet size then the actual bore, measured groove to groove?
Or does a round bullet not bump up that much in a regular round barrel, but only in a whitworth rifled barrel?
By the way... check out this original whitworth rifle
Far beyond my budget, but nevertheless....
http://www.antiek.net/bolkantiques/showimagebig.cfm?cat=1209&subcat=2185&aid=265735&the_start=14
Hildo
scrat
May 8, 2008, 12:20 AM
Here's a link to a report of the Sandy Hook Trials.
Hildo, I'm not sure I qualify to answer since I have nothing beyond suspicions about how it all works. My Volunteer rifle's bore mikes .451. I don't know how deep the grooves are by actual measurement. I size the bullets for it to .450. They seat with only the weight of the ramrod. When it's fired, the bullet only has to expand .001 to fill the lands but must expand more to fill the grooves.
In a Whitworth bore which mikes .451 or so, also, the same amount of expansion, .001, would be required to fill the flats, leaving only the corners. I'll bet if one took a cross section of both rifling styles and measured the straight line distance of the circumference each one posesses if all the lands and grooves were straightened out, you'd be looking at nearly the same linear length, meaning nearly the same amount of expansion would be required to fill both bores, just different shaped expansion.
Here's a link to a picture from an old thread. I shot this bullet through 13 plastic jugs filled with water and it still buried a few inches into the ground beyond the jugs. Notice how much the fired bullet has shortened which is apparent by comparing the grease grooves side by side. The nose deformation was probably due to impact but may have been partially due to slumping of the nose as the bullet bumps up. The lands in my rifle are narrow, meaning quite a bit of expansion is required to fill those wide grooves.
Steve, I can see that expansion theory of you working. Interesting, also the photo's. I didn't now a bullet would bump-up that much. You must have used a heavy powder charge.
Did they minie's for for lighter charges, or maybe for lighter bullet weight to achieve the required expansion?
A larger than the bore bullet is obviously only used in breech loading weapons.
However they are used in them, and according to many topics on THR on C&B revolvers it is quite important for the bullet to be a tad bigger than the grooves for best accuracy. So sometimes people enlarge their chambers in the cylinder to accomplish that.
Maybe a bullet does not bump-up as much in a breechloading rifle then, or only not when it is not heavy enough? Or would it bump-up in a breechloader as well and and oversize bullet is not needed at all, unless you are using hardened lead like in modern rifles?
And probably bullits used in revolvers are just too light to bump-up?
Sorry for going indepth with all the questions, but... I just have to know!:confused:
Thanks,
Hildo
rusty from italy
May 8, 2008, 06:56 AM
Hildo, i can try to give you same answer, i own a volunteer.
In a breech loading rifle actually you have a hard alloy and the bullet don't upset and expand in the bore, in a old breech loading cartridge, born for black powder propellant the bullet is softer than actual alloy with antimony, in the old 45-70 the good alloy was from 20:1 in the 45-70-500 of the rifle up till a 40:1 in the 45-55-405 of cabine load, the 405 bullet was hollow base, not like a minič with thin skirt, but a hollw base help to seal the bore, the bullet speed with black powder isn't so high to make the bullet jump the rifle, a 40:1 alloy of lead-tin is enougt with the moderate 55 grains of charge!
Going to the muzzleloader, speaking of small caliber fast twist like volunteer, withworth, gibbs or rigby (volunteer is 1:20, the other are usually 1:18) you must find the right chemistry, a well balanced charge with right hardness of the bullt and weight of it!
A heavy bullet help the expansion due the high mass that oppone to the kick of the blast, in a 1:18 a 540 grain bullet work quite well, (.45) but if you use a high admount of charge, and for long range you need it, the bullet gone straight out to the rifle if it is too soft like pure lead, so for take rifling is use to add a small admount of tin in the lead of the bullet, the right quantity to get a right expansion and a good take of rifling!
Going down with the charge, for example a 100 mt firing line is more usually here in europe (in Italy tere is three or four site with 300 mt line and no one over this) all the balance change, and the research for the good recipe start again!
Pardon my bad english i hope you have understand me!
ciao
Rusty
Steve499
May 8, 2008, 08:19 AM
Maybe a bullet does not bump-up as much in a breechloading rifle then, or only not when it is not heavy enough? Or would it bump-up in a breechloader as well and and oversize bullet is not needed at all, unless you are using hardened lead like in modern rifles?
And probably bullits used in revolvers are just too light to bump-up?
As Rusty said, there's a balance that has to be achieved for everything to work properly and, again, I only have suspicions about what's really happening.
The bumping up process apparently happens in the very first microseconds of the charge's ignition. The more mass it has by added length and the softer the bullet alloy is, the more it resists beginning to move, demonstrated by shortening in length and expanding in width, or bumping up. I know 70 grains of 1 1/2 fg powder is sufficient to make a .45 caliber, 550 grain bullet do that but I've never tried smaller and smaller charges with that long bullet or lighter bullets with heavier charges to see where the process begins.
As far as breech loaders go, I know the Brits had fits with this principle when they converted their Enfields to breech loaders using the Snider system. The Enfield had an excellent reputation for accuracy when loaded with just under bore size hollow based minie bullets. When converting the .577 Enfields to the Snider system they used the same bullets loaded into cartridge cases and found, eventually, that things don't work that way and earned the Snider a reputation for inaccuracy along the way. Apparently, a bullet expands into the area surrounding it at the instant of ignition. Further expansion stops after the bullet starts moving. If the bullet is contained in a cartridge case the case must limit it's expansion and by the time it clears the case it has already stopped, so for it to fill the grooves, it must necessarily begin the journey larger than land to land diameter.
I guess in revolvers, the only bumping up that could happen would take place in the cylinder. Any expansion in the barrel would be caused by lead being displaced by the lands moving into the areas of the grooves. Revolvers with cylinder chambers smaller than barrel diameter stack the deck against accuracy. There are some who theorize this is an allowance for fouling but I think it's just poor design.
Jim Watson
May 8, 2008, 10:03 AM
I don't have much experience with muzzleleoaders and zilch with the late cylindro-conical bulleted guns like Whitworth, but can say that there were a lot of black powder cartridge guns that depended on bumping up a soft bullet. There are a lot to be seen that will not chamber a cartridge loaded with a groove diameter bullet. They have to bump up to work at all.
The Trapdoor Springfield is infamous for oversize barrels that look sloppy with a standard .458" bullet. The original 405 grain bullet was hollow based to Minie-up. The later 500 grain bullet was flat based or maybe just slightly dished. Apparently its inertia was enough to cause it to bump up to fit the barrel.
Rachen
May 8, 2008, 10:50 AM
Hollow based bullets like Minies are meant to bump up when the gases from the burning powder pushes into the hollow base. When a Minie ball is leaving the barrel, it will hardly look like a Minie ball at all. It will look like a VERY FAT Hershey Kiss, due to the expansion of the base. Someone here mentioned something about the base of the Minie being dislodged when firing? The solution to that is having a projectile with NO grease grooves. On Dixie, they sell a mould that casts the ORIGINAL Enfield Minie ball, 530 grain hollow base round nose, no grease grooves.
oneshooter
May 8, 2008, 10:45 PM
The origional English pickett ( Pritcher?)had no grooves. The bullet was wrapped in greased paper that was loaded with the bullet. It was a paper patched bullet! I plan to order some from DGW, but does anybody know what paper would be used?
Oneshooter
Livin in Texas
Dithsoer
May 16, 2008, 01:53 AM
So if one wants a long range target-shooter, does he HAVE to go with one of the above choices? Is it possible to get a 500 to 1000 yard-accurate muzzleloader for under $1000 in the .36 to .45 caliber range that doesn't include one of the above rifles? This is exactly the kind of rifle that I've been looking for but I've gotten so discouraged in my search that I've all but given up.
TGeorge
March 3, 2009, 04:43 PM
I think that slug guns, designed for bench rest shooting would do pretty well at extended distances for a Black Powder weapon. They fire a solid paperpatched bullet with a hard lead nose piece and a soft lead body.
Jefferson Herb
March 3, 2009, 07:32 PM
I have a 1/28 green mt in my hawkin,now see they have a 1/24;I suppose you could get a .45 and twist 1/20 or 1/16 to try.It would give someone research anyway.
Sharps Paper Cart .54cal.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/1859SharpsRSLawrencePATAPR1858-1859.jpg ($600-12,00)
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/Smokin_Gun/11-12-08_1454.jpg
dbm
March 10, 2009, 04:01 AM
Here in the UK we have been shooting Enfield rifles and Match Rifles at long range for many years. The Muzzle Loaders Association of Great Britain (http://www.mlagb.com) holds National Rifle Championship matches for Enfields at 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards, and for match rifles at 200, 300, 500, 600, 900 and 1000 yards.
In addition the Long Range Rifles Branch (http://www.longrangerifles.co.uk) of the MLAGB holds other matches, including the Asquith Cup which is an aggregate match for Enfields firing 15 shots at each distance, 600 and 800 yards. Plus the Metford Trophy, another aggregate match of 15 shots at each distance, 1000, 1100 & 1200 yards.
This year (September) the 7th MLAIC (http://www.mlaic.org) World Long Range Championships will be held at Camp Butner, North Carolina. There will be matches fired at 300, 500, 600, 900 and 1000 yards.
Good scores with Enfields at long range can be made, and at times a skilled shot will out-perform others shooting match rifles. During the Victorian era, most target shooting with Enfields did not go beyond 600 yards.
Someone has already posted a link to my Research Press (http://www.researchpress.co.uk) web site which includes information on the Sandy Hook tests. Readers may also be interested in my Long Range Muzzle Loader (http://www.lrml.org) web site, which includes information on shooting and historical matter such as Whitworth and Metford's 2000 yard rifle.
David
garben54
March 12, 2009, 07:27 PM
The 1874 Match at Creeds Moor Long Island was shot between the American Team using a mixture of Sharps and Remington Cartridge Rifles and the Irish Team using Rigby Muzzleloading Rifles.Distances were 800yds,900yds,and 1000yds. I dont know the calibre of the rigby but the result was a win by the American team but only by one or two points. Can Muzzleloaders shoot accurately out to long range You betcha they can
Garben
MCgunner
March 12, 2009, 08:15 PM
I HAVE A DREAM...................................................... of taking an Enfield to a modern benchrest competition, where you will find customized target guns of all shapes and sizes, and using a 19th century rifled musket to beat them all at 1000 yards and hold a new world record.
Of course, I am just dreaming of doing that, but it doesn't mean it couldn't be done.
Any insights? Using a Whitworth would be cheating, because none of the other guns have hexagonal twist.
Rachen is offline Report Post
Hey, dreams are great, I have 'em myself. Of course, I'm always slapped down by the iron hand of reality. :D
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