Hot German .308/7.62x51 Ammo Headstamped "MEN"...????


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s2brutus
May 7, 2008, 11:41 AM
Does anyone know anything about some German .308/7.62x51 ammo that is headstamped "MEN" and is very hot? The "MEN" is all that is on the headstamp and there is no "cross in the circle" indicating that it is/was NATO ammo.

I use both .308 and 7.62x51 to describe it because I don't know which it truly is. A friend has some of it that he bought several years ago and all he's been able to find out is that it was made in Germany. He's shot it in his Rem. 700, FR-8, and 1916 Guardia Civil rifles and it gives "sticky bolt" in all three and shows primer cratering. He pulled down a few rounds and they each contained a ~47.2 grain charge of an as yet unidentified ball powder.

By ball park estimate, that much ball powder in a typical powder used to load .308/7.62x51 would yield something in the range of 60,000 psi.

Needless to say, he knows better than to shoot any more of it as is, and is in the process of pulling down a bunch of it and reducing the powder charges.

Has anyone ever heard of this stuff or know anything about it?

:confused:

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Chipperman
May 7, 2008, 11:46 AM
MEN = Metallwerk Elisenhütte G.m.b.H., Nassau, Lahn, Germany

http://stevespages.com/intheadstamps.html

foghornl
May 7, 2008, 12:26 PM
Machine gun ammo maybe????

Some of the Soviet 7.62x54 ammo is loaded hot to be used ONLY in the Shkas (sp??) aircarft-mount machine guns...UNSAFE to use in a Mosin-Nagant rifle.

Thrash1982
May 7, 2008, 08:04 PM
Hot German men? . . .




















:neener: Sorry, couldn't resist!

Bwana John
May 7, 2008, 09:45 PM
I still have a bunch of this stuff, I bought it in sealed 1200 rnd (HEAVY!) ammo boxes marked New Zealand Dept of Defence. Here is a pic of the ammo box with the NSN Number http://img802.mytextgraphics.com/photolava/2008/05/08/762-4afmz7mn3.jpeg

The ammo is packed in 20 rnd boxes marked 7.62 Ball, MEN 86

The headstamp reads MEN-86, with green primer sealant, the primer is 3 way staked in place.

Case shows annealing.

I have read that the projectile is designed to yaw and break upon impact, like the 5.56 bullet.

As surplus ammo I rate it as being right up there with Hirt.

I didnt think it was loaded really hot, it works well in both my M1-A and FAL.

alsaqr
May 7, 2008, 10:17 PM
It may be made for the MG-3 machinegun. Some of the ammo for that gun has a kind of coating that causes some sticking. This slows down the cyclic rate of the gun. Brought some Venezulean surplus stuff a few years ago. It was made for the MG42/3 machinegun and had a clear coating. When fired from my Remington model 700 you could open the bolt easily but could not pull the bolt back.

Jeremy2171
May 8, 2008, 08:06 PM
foghornl
Machine gun ammo maybe????

Some of the Soviet 7.62x54 ammo is loaded hot to be used ONLY in the Shkas (sp??) aircarft-mount machine guns...UNSAFE to use in a Mosin-Nagant rifle.

No such animal.....7.62 NATO is safe for use in all 7.62 NATO chambers.

ShKAs ammo is also safe for use in rifles.

alsaqr
May 8, 2008, 09:17 PM
This is somewhat off topic. Here is an article about a .308 target rifle built on a M14 action that ka-boomed with with another brand of German 7.62mm ammo. Folks, this kaboom is the real deal. According to analysis of the wreck, the barrel had previous cracking.

http://www.thegunzone.com/m1akb.html

slzy
May 8, 2008, 09:28 PM
moisin.net warns of specially headstamped .62x54r,which has the cyrllic letter which Shksa. starts with.

Jeremy2171
May 9, 2008, 09:11 AM
moisin.net warns of specially headstamped .62x54r,which has the cyrllic letter which Shksa. starts with.

Same bullet weight as light ball and same velocity...how is it unsafe in a rifle? If you make a "special" MG only round you don't make it in the same caliber as your main rifle otherwise dumb troops WILL start shooting the wrong ammo in them. Specifically the SHKaS ammo had three "grades"..
Grade 1: safe for use in forward firing syncronized MGs (firing through a propeller)
Grade 2: safe for rearward firing non-syncronized MGs.
Grade 3: restricted for ground use only.

slzy
May 9, 2008, 04:47 PM
i don't have any idea. ask the question on the moisin board and get back to us.

Bwana John
May 9, 2008, 05:07 PM
If you make a "special" MG only round you don't make it in the same caliber as your main rifle otherwise dumb troops WILL start shooting the wrong ammo in them.
I dont know, Ive got some VERY VERY warm 9mm SMG ammo that you might not want to shoot all the time through your pistol.

I did not find the MEN 7.62 mm ammo that hot. It works the action on my FAL and M-1A fine with no signs of high pressure. I wouldnt shoot a converted M93 Spanish 1916 with ANY 7.62, Im not so sure about the M98 FR-8 (Spanish metalurugy, and some Mauser bolts just get sticky when they warm up) but if the M-700's bolt was sticking I woulnt shoot any more.

I thought is was intresting the Kiwis get their ammo from Germany when the Aussi's are much closer and use the same rifle and ammo. (but Id go with the Germans also)

If you can look up the NSN number it might have a lot more info on this ammo.

300magnum
August 6, 2008, 12:25 AM
Hi, The MEN 86 7.62 x 51 was what we Kiwi's used to use when our army was armed with real guns, L1A1's and 7.62 cal machine guns.

I've used heaps of it in my ex NZ army L1A1, my H&K G3 and in several bolt rifles, shoots well, never had a problem with it.

It was put up for tender by the NZ Army when we went to the 5.56mm Steyr's and 5.56 FN machineguns.

It used to be very popular as target ammo for service rifle matches over here and lots of it used to be pulled and reloaded with the same powder charge and 180gr softpoint projectiles on top, made for real grunty hunting ammo.

Still have a case or two stashed away for a rainy day, hard to find it for sale now.

Cheers from NZ:)

jonnyc
August 6, 2008, 11:13 AM
Putting a 180 grain bullet on a "hottish" load meant for a 147-150 grain bullet is really stretching the envelope. I would guess "real grunty" is an understatement.

CAsasquatch
October 11, 2008, 11:23 PM
Just bought 1000 rounds at Crossroads gunshow for $750.00 -
headstamp says "MEN-88-40"

Anyone shoot this before?
What does the 40 signify?

Is this good boxer primed, non-corrosive?

Jason_G
October 12, 2008, 12:47 PM
Is this good boxer primed, non-corrosive?
It ought to be noncorrosive, but I am not sure about boxer vs. berdan, because you can find German-made surplus with both. I can't remember what primer the MEN ammo has.

Jason

lite-box
October 12, 2008, 01:49 PM
Holy Jz 'us ! $750 per 1k :eek:

Century Arms is selling it for $425 + $12 shipping per 1k Oct special . Normal $500.

MEN should be Berdan primed.

1911Gunslinger
October 12, 2008, 03:12 PM
The ammo is 7.62x51mm Nato and is should not be fired in 308 commercial actions. 7.62 NATO Military rifles have a longer throat( the area from the end of the chamber to where the rifling starts) to account for variations in the ammo that occur in mass production military plants. Commercial rifles chambered for .308 have a shorter throat which can cause excessive pressure when fired with military ammo, same with .223 and 5.56x45 ammo.

CAsasquatch
October 15, 2008, 08:49 PM
Just curious, does the reverse hold true? ...or can .308 (non-nato) be safely fired from my FAL?

Jason_G
October 15, 2008, 09:50 PM
The ammo is 7.62x51mm Nato and is should not be fired in 308 commercial actions. 7.62 NATO Military rifles have a longer throat( the area from the end of the chamber to where the rifling starts) to account for variations in the ammo that occur in mass production military plants. Commercial rifles chambered for .308 have a shorter throat which can cause excessive pressure when fired with military ammo, same with .223 and 5.56x45 ammo.

With .308 vs. 7.62 NATO, it's a headspace issue. Some commercial .308 rifles are properly headspaced within the window to shoot both. It's not an "across the board" thing. It depends on the rifle.



Jason

USSR
October 15, 2008, 09:59 PM
Just curious, does the reverse hold true? ...or can .308 (non-nato) be safely fired from my FAL?

Yes, commercial .308 Win can be safely fired in your FAL. Worse case situation, brass life will be short.

Don

TexasRifleman
October 15, 2008, 10:01 PM
Just bought 1000 rounds at Crossroads gunshow for $750.00 -
headstamp says "MEN-88-40"

You paid 75 cents a round for this stuff? WOW. That's insane.
Sorry.

CAsasquatch
October 16, 2008, 01:13 PM
Checked my receipt - 650w/tax, 600w/o ... so .60/rd.

Bwana John
October 16, 2008, 01:18 PM
650w/tax, 600w/o ... so .60/rd.

I need to find the thread where people chastized me for overpaying $220 per 1200 round case for this stuff.:what:

TexasRifleman
October 16, 2008, 01:46 PM
I need to find the thread where people chastized me for overpaying $220 per 1200 round case for this stuff.

LOL I remember those days. People thought i was nuts for buying all that "cheap junk" south african :)

CAsasquatch
October 16, 2008, 03:06 PM
So to find out what the ammo you own right now is really worth, how cheap would you sell it for (without holding you to it) per round?

PzGren
October 16, 2008, 10:35 PM
Germany never issued a different 7.62 for the machineguns, at least they did not in my time, when soldiers used a battle rifle.

bingo
October 19, 2008, 09:28 AM
Hi folks.
I'm from Belgium and just bought me an L1A1 in brand-new condition for 375 € (= 500 US dollar). The ammo 7.62 x 51 Nato MEN is sold for 325 € (440 US dollar) per 1.000.:)

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