[orienteeer]

it'd probly be a pump gun like the mossberg. whattaya think?

[Owlnmole]

Most people will tell you, oh no, the .410 is no good, you need a 12 or 20 guage, but hey, anything is better than a sharp stick.

I'm not so sure about the usefulness of the "spreader choke" of the Mossberg 500 HS model, but if you need a low-recoil home defense gun then a .410 Mossberg 500 is not too bad.

According to the testing on www.brassfetcher.com, better to avoid the .410 slugs and stock up on 5-pellet 3-inch buck.

Depending on the kind of home security you have in mind, an inexpensive H&R single shot might do the trick and you can get extra barrels cheaply and easily.

If recoil is the issue, maybe you'd be better off with a pistol caliber carbine -- lever, pump or semi-auto in .357/38 or 9mm?

[wdlsguy]

I think it would be sufficient, assuming it was loaded with something like Winchester XB413 (http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/shotdetail.aspx?symbol=XB413&use=4&gauge=410).

[orienteeer]

how 'bout if i don't want to kill, just wound & detain?

[1911user]

how 'bout if i don't want to kill, just wound & detain?

1) Get a good alarm system
2) Get a big, loud dog and keep it indoors
3) Pray that steps 1&2 are enough.

Your goal should be "shoot to stop the attacker from doing bad things". It doesn't really matter whether they live or die. What does matter is they stop their bad activity ASAP. Shooting to stop means damaging them enough that they decide to stop or physically can't continue. That may very well result in them dying but it is far from certain. You should be justified in killing someone before pointing a gun at them and/or pulling the trigger.

If you can not live with the idea of killing an attacker, don't buy a firearm for defense purposes. If you already have firearms (for non-defense purposes), lock them up when not in use so they can't be used against you easily. It'd be a really bad day to get shot with your own gun.

[birdbustr]

If you are just going to wound and detain I would recommend a very good lawyer too. I'm sure the no good that breaks in will try to sue you later. If you shoot, shoot to kill and save yourself the trouble of legal fees and having to watch your back for the guy later.

BTW: Does anyone think I would be able to sue the perpetrator's family for the cost of cleaning up my house and all of the little pieces of their relative?

[Fred Fuller]

It's a deadly weapon no matter what size the bore. If you are not justified in killing then you aren't justified in shooting in the first place.

Please do everyone who cares about you a big favor, and let go the idea of shooting some bad guy "just a little bit." "Detaining" is a job for the cops. Your job is to defend yourself and your loved ones if necessary and justified. Otherwise, you're either going to jail or go broke paying lawyers- or both.

That said, a .410 will do if you hit with it, misses with anything are pretty ineffectual. I'd prefer a bigger bore, but I wouldn't try to take a .410 away from someone either...

lpl/nc

[orienteeer]

if you were attacking me, wouldn't you lay down right quick with a belly full of #7 shot until the law arrived?

especially if i had 5 more in the gun?

i realize i'm being provacative here. that's my intent.

[Scoupe]

If I were attacking you , yes. Are you willing to bet your life that a crackhead will?

[rantingredneck]

Rational people tend to surrender rather than be shot the first time.

People who are rational also tend not to invade occupied dwellings in a nation with gun ownership rates as high as ours.

Don't bet your life or the lives of loved ones on the possibility of your home invader being rational.

[Okiecruffler]

Nothing detains like death.

[mswestfall]

Spend some time on the Strategies and Tactics Forum.

[trickshot]

I really like lever action guns and I'm seriously considering buying a Winchester 9410 for home defense. But it only takes 2 1/2" shells. I did some research and this is what I figured out.

Winchester makes a 410, 2 ½" shell, loaded with 3 #000 buckshot.
That's three 36 caliber lead balls @ 1300 fps.
255 ft-lbs x 3 = a total of 765 ft-lbs energy.

Looking at ft-lbs of energy, thats more powerful than 5 bullets from a 380 ACP, or 3 bullets from a standard velocity 38 special.

It appears to me like a 410 loaded with 000 buckshot will work for home defense.

[rantingredneck]

Indeed, but typically the advantage of a longarm is that it is more powerful and more immediately incapacitating than a handgun. When your comparison of your longarm is to 2 handgun cartridges near the bottom of the acceptable SD caliber list that should tell you something.

[Carl N. Brown]

The published ballistics for the .410 buckshot loads shows 000 (.36") buck at the same velocity as a 12 ga load. 12 gauge carries eight 000 shot, the .410 carries 3 in 2.5 inch shells and 5 in 3 in shells. The .410 carries fewer buckshot, but the individual shot hit just as hard.

INAL but I do have a PC connected to the internet :)

A firearm is a lethal weapon and if used should not be used with intent to wound.

A shot to the leg that hits the femoral artery can lead to death by exsanguination or something.

Threaten to shoot to kill or actually shoot to kill, but fergit about the wounding idea.

That said, I know two gals who chased off a home invader and detained his accomplice at gun point for arrest by responding officers. No shots fired, gals safe and last I heard the two burglars were still in prison. But they chased-off and detained by threatening to kill. For a gun to work as a deterrent without being fired there must be a credible belief on the part of the criminal that the defender means death, not wounding or warning shots.

A wounded burglar can be explained by saying you were in fear of death and shot to kill. A dead burglar cannot be explained by, gee I only meant to wound and detain him.

[1911user]

if you were attacking me, wouldn't you lay down right quick with a belly full of #7 shot until the law arrived?

especially if i had 5 more in the gun?

Are you willing to bet your life on that?

Don't think of the intruder as a nice, rational person who'll see the error of their ways. Treat them as a big, rabid dog that will NOT stop until you force it to stop due to physical disablement. Lose the small birdshot, aim for something vital, and don't stop shooting until they absolutely stop being a threat.

[TAB]

the real diffrence between 12, 20, 16, 28 and 410( I know I missed a few bores) is the number of pellets in the shell. very little diffrence in velocity.

[Jorg]

i realize i'm being provacative here. that's my intent.

So, you don't actually care about the usefulness of a .410 and you just want to play games?

Not much point a lot of point in this thread in that case.

[pbearperry]

I would use a .410 for self defense if it was the biggest gun I had.Other than that,it makes a great quail gun for close up work.

[Dave McCracken]

A standard 3" 410 load has roughly the same ME as the 44 Maggie Numb.

FWIW,one story out of NOLA after Katrina has an elderly couple dealing with a home invasion. He had been a target shooter and hunter in his early days but had only a revolver and a Model 42 Winchester skeet gun in of course, 410.

According to the story, three thugs tried to kick in their door and take whatever. Each received one chest hit with a skeet load and were stopped forthwith. Range was literally feet. No further trouble reported.

IMO, the 410 is a bit light for HD which may become Community Defense if it really hit the fan, but way better than nothing. 3" shells loaded with 000 are worth trying.

And while I've fired a 9410 and thought it a ton of fun, IMO a pump may be a better choice.

[orienteeer]

jorg & others -
i just meant that i wanted you all to think about the same possibilities i was considering. apparently, you have it figured out for yourselves more concretely than i. that's a good thing. it's just that i'm still kind of on the fence about taking another life.

[Jorg]

it's just that i'm still kind of on the fence about taking another life.

Well, if that's the case, gun selection isn't the question. First come to grips with whether you'd be willing to use potentially deadly force force to defend yourself. Then start talking about tools. There really isn't a "less deadly" gun when it comes to this.

[dagger dog]

Load it with slugs and it very capable of stopping a intruder!

[orienteeer]

thanks to all for your input. i've got some thinkin to do.

[jkingrph]

I picked up one of the little Marlin .410 lever actions a couple of years ago, primarily as a fun gun. I really have not researched what shot sizes are available, but would think #6 and larger would be quite effective at close range. I do load mine with the 3x36 000 buckshot, but have not tried them on anything. Hell, initimidation factor should be tremendous as it looks like a 45 cal rifle pointing at the perp.

A big advantage with the buckshot would be the limited range in an urban environment as well as limited penetration as round balls are not the greatest.

[Fred Fuller]

I'm glad you realize that. If you lack the resolve to pull the trigger when you should, you risk arming your attacker with your weapon.

Please let me suggest something for you to do, while you are thinking.

Get some training in basic firearms use. One of the basic NRA classes would do nicely, and they are pretty widely available. See http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/basictraining.asp for more information, and to help locate classes near you.

I have found in working with new shooters in the past that sometimes 'the skill increases the will.' It seems to me that a certain number of people have some pretty basic doubts regarding their ability to use a firearm successfully, even on the range in a nonthreatening environment. They lack confidence in their own ability- until they see from experience that they CAN be a successful shooter, that they DO have the ability to use a firearm safely and successfully.

Please let me suggest, if you have had no introduction to shooting so far, that you seek to get one at the hands of a competent instructor. It might help a lot.

Stay Safe,

lpl/nc

[pete f]

Orienteer,

There is time to do the thinking now, but IF and WHEN something goes horribly wrong, you will not have the time.

Ask yourself. If a stray dog had your wife or kid by the throat, would you not do EVERYTHING possible to stop that?

IF you are in the house and a stranger walks in and tells you not to move, I am going to do your wife first, then your daughter.... are you going to say "please use a condom?"

I basically put it this way. Killing a human being is a hard thing to do, but these animals who walk on two legs preying on good people who have done nothing to them are no longer my species....


Its self defense, and defense of those people I treasure most in my life.

PS, forget the 410 pump, High school girls manage hundreds of rounds of 12 gauge when they are involved in trap and skeet. TV makes a 12 gauge recoil far more excessive than it is. Get a nice 870. Your kids will end up with it and teach your grandkids how to shoot with it.

[chris in va]

Not a shotgun length, but this gives you some idea about the 410 for defensive purposes.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

Not very favorable.

Hey, if you're still on the fence about firearms do some reading up on crime in your area. It'll be a real eye opener. The guys busting into your house often aren't intent on just taking a few items.

[glocktrouble]

don't do nuthing shotta bird and didn't do nothing cept blow feathers

[orienteeer]

thanks to chris in va. very informative.

[TAB]

the box of truth link is not a good example of what a 410 can do from a long gun. it is an example about what a 410 can do from a very short barrel.

[Rampant_Colt]

a .410 sounds like a poor choice for self-defense to me....

Why settle for second best when a 12 gauge stoked with reduced recoil 9-pellet 00 buck shotshells or slugs are available??

If you're not prepared to use lethal force to defend you and your loved ones, a shotgun's not for you. It sounds like you're not committed to the possibility of having to take another person's life in the defense of your own.

my .02

[briansp82593]

if your stoked on getting a .410 get the taurus judge, 45 lc's and 410's, in a small house friendly package

[nollsp]

Door kickers love scatterguns...and that is what I use in my house (a 20 though (Mossy 500)).

As mentioned before, I would much rather face stand down a solid marksman with a handgun of any caliber than a hoe hum shooter-dad with a 410.

At 6-10 feet, it doesnt really matter what barrel length or what the buckshot size is...

[loneviking]

Well, here's couple of real life experiences to mull over.

As a teenager I raised livestock and one time had this Spanish/Brahma cross bull that was about 1.5 years old. Mean, good sized horns and he loved to get into a pasture that I had a pony in that had green grass foundered. He'd go to batting the pony around with his horns and my dad or I would go down there with a .410 and fire several rounds of #7 shot at him to get him to off the horse. We figured the #7 was too small to hurt much--sort of sting like rock salt. After we butchered the bull out, we discovered that the shot had penetrated under the skin, into the meat but the bull was so tough that he just didn't care!

I've met some humans like that, such as the guy on PCP who took 15 rounds from a 9mm at point blank range to kill him (nope, wasn't me but I got there about 30 seconds after the firing died down).

Another night, I had to kill a big racoon with a 12 gauge loaded with 00 Buckshot. Easy--right? Wrong! I was using an over/under with the first barrel modified, the second full choke. The little monster was smaller than the shot pattern and only took about two of the 00 shots. The second shot he gathered a couple of more and decided to run. I had to reload, hunt him down and put one more round of 00 shot into his brain to finish him.

So, three rounds of 00 Buckshot from a 12 gauge at close range to kill a 35 lb. critter. Do you really want to bet your life on only a .410? I know a human is bigger, but from the tough spots I've been in, I always want a bigger gun!

[Bud Tugly]

IMO a home defense gun should be the biggest meanest thing you can shoot with confidence and accuracy. If that happens to be a .410 then go for it. Get a good supply of 3" 000 buckshot shells and practice shooting at varied conditions and distances until you can do it and reload with confidence even in pitch dark.

If you aren't sure whether you could shoot to kill in a life-or-death situation then a gun is the wrong choice for home security. Invest in motion-sensing yard lights, a big dog that barks at strange noises, excellent dead-bolt locks for all doors, an alarm system for all windows, many cans of pepper spray, and a cell phone for every family member with 911 keyed into the speed dial.

[Carl N. Brown]

i'm still kind of on the fence about taking another life.

I am no longer on the fence about having my life taken by someone willing to attack me. If you won't take the life of an assailant to protect your life, what would be your answer to that assailant's next victim? The majority of murderers are people with past histories of violent crime. There is little chance that they would be striken with reflection and resolve to amend their ways after taking your life. If you wont defend yourself, think about the next victim.

[Robert Hairless]

i just meant that i wanted you all to think about the same possibilities i was considering. apparently, you have it figured out for yourselves more concretely than i. that's a good thing. it's just that i'm still kind of on the fence about taking another life.

It's good of you to want other people in the Shotgun section to think about the same possibilities you were considering. I don't know why you thought that no one else here had done so, or why you would ask here if you thought that.

But since you're still thinking your way through the complex subject of home defense and are reluctant to do anything extreme, have you considered the excruciating pain an attacker could experience from a wound? It would be more humane if you simply shot really close and shouted something like "Let that be a warning to you!"

Is there some reason why you want to defend your life and your family's? Life is much simpler if you don't.

[lvcat2004]

Orienteer, I don't think very many of us in this forum have taken another human beings life and don't really want to in any sitiatuion. However, when we are between a rock and a hard place, most of us would gladly choose the lives of our loved ones or ourselves over that of a violent intruder.

Having said that, most of us have not done that, and are hoping not to do it, but perhaps taking some defensive shooting class may help by somewhat simulating that kind of envinronmnet so that we don't have to "think" about it too much when such lethal action is called for.

I think that you are taking a very rational step by thinking about it first, and I am hoping that you will take the step toward training yourself/family so that you will be at least prepared for such circumstance, and not be defenseless.

And if you haven't purchased a gun, I would recommend a larger and more commonly used caliber such as 12 or 20 since they are cheaper to shoot and more powerful, and even though it is easier to hit a target with a shotgun, there is no substitue for good marksmanship, and cheaper ammo only helps to allow you to practice more.

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Better'n harsh words.