[10-Ring]

I don't know if this is the right place to post this -- moderators please move if necessary...
Anyway, I was just curious. When the ATF goes into my favorite shop & starts their dreaded audit, what are they looking for? what would it take to pass? what would it take to fail? and is a fail necessarily enough to shut down the store?
TIA

[GarySTL]

I can't say what's involved in the audit, but my local shop was audited recently and got 100% passing grade.

Maybe they check his incoming shipments against his bound book and 4473s?

[fixyurgun]

They check the 4473s, the bound books, required signs. They check books vs inventory(as in ,''show me this gun, page 5 line 9"). Then they go over the proper procedures for sales, transport & storage. At least that's the way my last one went. Jim

[csmkersh]

Audits seem to be done by the youngest and dumbest ATF agents. Many don't seem to know that prior to the GCA of 1968, there was no requirement that a firearm have a serial number. There are many rifles, shotguns and handguns out there that don't have serial numbers. My current dealer has problems every time ATF comes through. He's got dozens of these old firearms on display and ATF goes bonkers.

[10-Ring]

Is the audit done for the prior year? or for the entire length of operation? the length of the current license?

[Aguila Blanca]

Is the audit done for the prior year? or for the entire length of operation? the length of the current license?
The audit is done for the inventory. Any gun that has been logged INTO the shop in the bound book and not logged out must be in the shop. They can pick any gun entry and ask to see THAT gun.

Then they also go over the paperwork, randomly (or perhaps not randomly, if they find problems) checking 4473s to be sure EVERY buyer wrote "NO" instead of "N" for the questions, etc. Like that's really important and if you just wrote "N" instead of "NO" you must be a criminal ...

[Pilgrim]

They are especially interested in seeing what happened to a firearm where a potential purchaser was refused by NCIS. Was it returned to inventory? Was it sold to someone else?

Pilgrim

[oneshooter]

If the buyer fails the background check the firearm is not removed from inventory. The firearm is then available for sale to another buyer. Only AFTER the buyer is approved is it released to him/her, and then removed from inventory.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[bigjohnson]

The gun store where I work was recently audited. The ATF Inspector (they are NOT Special Agents) looked at the following:
All 4473s for sales completed since the last audit;
All entries in our bound books that were made since the last audit;
All State Police approval forms completed since our last audit;
Randomly checked our inventory to ensure that we had the guns on hand that we were supposed to have.

The state forms were reviewed because federal law requires dealers to adhere to state laws as well as federal laws.

The inspector found one case where we had accepted a mortgage statement instead of a utility bill as a 2nd form of identification. Since a mortgage statement is not specified as a valid 2nd ID form, the inspector notified the supervisor in his office, and the owner of the shop was called in for an "interview". After a lengthly discussion with the inspection supervisor, it was agreed that a mortgage statement could be used as a valid 2nd form of ID.

The shop was audited several years ago, prior to the new "white form 4473", when we were still using the old "yellow form". The yellow form did not have a separate block on the buyer's address line for the buyer's county of residence. On two occasions, the buyer neglected to put his county of residence on the address line, and the clerk handling the sale didn't catch it. As a result, the store owner had to have an "interview" with the inspections supervisor, and was threatened with loss of his license if it happened again.

[Aguila Blanca]

The new, white 4473 isn't a lot better than the old, yellow one.

Ever read the names of counties in places like, for example, anywhere that uses Indian (Native American) names for counties? Like, say, Washington?

There isn't nearly enough space to write some of those Indian names.

[larry_minn]

It really depends. It does seem they get the folks that since they can't get anything "exciting" instead try to find any nit pick to make a major case out of.
Lets see one person put that days date where it is supposed to be DOB. IIRC if the dealer did NOT get the person at the shop before they were done they would charge him with selling a handgun to person under age 21. Never mind the person had bought other guns and put CORRECT DOB and was in his 60s.
Of course the major crimes of people putting "USA" or "United States" or heaven forbid "AMERICA" instead of the correct. "United States of America"
Since the buyer showed up in 10 minutes (only lived 3 miles away) they decided to let him go with severe warning.
Job well done preventing crimes like putting wrong date or not using full titles.

[jrfoxx]

The yellow form did not have a separate block on the buyer's address line for the buyer's county of residence.
Never understood the point of listing the county. is the city, state, country, and zip code not enough for the ATF to figure out where someone lives?
If I were a meember of the tin foil hat brigade, I'd almost suspect it was only there to be something that they knew would get commonly missed so they could use it as an excuse to issue fines, revoke licenses, harrass dealers into giving up thier busines, etc.

As to what they can check in an audit, if sure they can check whatever they want inventory and paperwork-wise, to include as much or as little as they please. Seems to depend on the individual agent(s) doing the audit, and probly the results of past audits on the dealer in question. Doesnt seem to be any real laws on what they can or cant check, or how much of it. And the ATF isnt known for having written procedures for stuff so.....
(although they may have actually some written guidelines for their agents doing inspections, who knows)

[bogie]

It drives some of the dealers around here nuts.

St. Louis City is NOT part of St. Louis county, and does not reside within the county. Except for F-Troop...

[bigjohnson]

Bogie wrote, "St. Louis City is NOT part of St. Louis County..."

We have a similar situation here in Virginia, where cities are totally separate from counties. For example, if you live in the City of Richmond, which is the county seat of Henrico County, you do NOT live in Henrico County. In addition, we have several cities that are not located in any county at all. Norfolk, Virginia Beach, Newport News, Hampton, and Alexandria are just a few.
In a case where a resident of the City of Alexandria, for example, fills out a 4473, he should put "NONE" in the block marked "County".

[Kharn]

My indoor range had an ATF inspection a few months ago, during the inspection they were checking the books at a table 5' from the sales counter. One of the shooters started BSing with the clerk about various Tapco-style SKS parts they had for sale when he blurted out "Yeah, I've got an SKS at home, I'm going to make it full auto one of these days." :what:

All the employees went bug-eyed, the ATF guys both stood up with an "Excuse me, sir"

Kharn

[TexasRifleman]

All the employees went bug-eyed, the ATF guys both stood up with an "Excuse me, sir"

Well, it's still not against the law to say stupid things as long as you don't DO them :)

That's too funny...

[Sniper X]

I didn't read all the responses, but one of my nest freinds owns a gun shop and says they are simply checking paper work for accuracy, menaning the 4473 forms for being all filled out correctly and signed and so on.

[Tom Servo]

Well, it's still not against the law to say stupid things as long as you don't DO them
Unless you're dealing with the BATFE. Then, it's "conspiracy." :eek:

Good and accurate observations so far. As far as guns without serial numbers, we've never been hassled.

Guns are logged in by manufacturer, model, type (shotgun, pistol, etc), serial #, caliber and source. If it's a pre-68 and doesn't have a serial number, the other information is sufficient to identify the weapon.

Bear in mind, there are TONS of rifles out there without serial numbers. K-mart, Sears and some smaller manufacturers didn't serialize guns until it was required. The ATF knows that; they're concerned with making sure the weapons are correctly logged, and that the paperwork is in order.

Now, modern firearms without serial numbers are a different story...

The biggest things to look out for are customer errors on 4473's, guns sold but not logged out within 24 hours and guns brought in for repair that aren't promptly signed in. If they've visited before, and our books were good, it'll usually be quite awhile before we see them again.

[kwelz]

When I worked at Kieslers we wen though an Audit. The agents were professional and frankly they were nice people. In fact one of them had quite a sense of humor. They don't just shut a shop down when they find a couple clerical errors.

Ok let me qualify that. Some agents do not. Without question there are agents within ATF who are just looking for an excuse. Just remember that all of them are not evil. And Audits do serve a legitimate purpose.