[Coyote Rider]

Howdy folks,
I've been thinking about prettifying my bp rifle with the addition of a bayonet, and I have a couple of questions.
1.) I have a Lyman trade rifle, not an Enfield. How weird would one my smokepole look with a bayonet? (Translation: what I really meant to ask was if it would be historically correct, although I'm also wondering about the aesthetics.) I'm guessing that during the War of Northern Aggression there were people (basically on the CSA side) who had to use personal weapons, including Hawken-style rifles not that different from my Lyman, and who affixed bayonets to them. Does anyone know if that was so?
2.) Not sure how I could attach one without interfering with my front sight or ramrod, or if there's a bayonet that will go on my rifle without me needing to modify either the bayonet or the rifle. I'm looking at doing this on budget, so expensive fixes aren't really an option. any suggestions?
Thanks.
P.S. Please feel free to post any bayonet or rifle and bayonet photos in your answers.

[DutchmanDick]

I have seen photos of Confederate weapons that were originally civilian guns pressed into service. One that comes to mind was a half-stock octagon barrelled rifle that had the first inch or so of the muzzle turned down and a lug brazed onto the side to take a sword bayonet, a la Enfield musketoon. I've even seen double-barrelled shotguns with bayonet attatchments added to them!

[4v50 Gary]

I've seen a photo of an American flintlock rifle that was fitted for a bayonet during the Revolution. I'm uncertain if the gun's bore was smoothed out to make it a smooth bore rifle.

[oneshooter]

You could always make a plug baynet for it. Just don't forget to remove it BEFORE pulling the trigger!!:evil:

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[JNewell]

Many civilian arms were modified for bayonets during the Revolution. You cut back the forearm, if necessary, and silver solder or braze a stud on. You need a bayonet with the correct size sleeve. You cut an dogleg-shaped channel in the sleeve and that's basically it. It's not incredibly secure but it is relatively quick and effective.

Why you would want to do this is another question, though...:confused:

[DutchmanDick]

Only gun I have with a bayonet is my original P1853 Enfield. I recently bought a "long, pointy, sharp thang" from Blockade Runner Civil War Sutlers to go onto it, just for grins and giggles. It's a repro, and it's a rather loose fit ( I think it was made to fit some of the repro guns with larger diameter barrels), but the quality seems to be pretty decent and there's no foreign maker's marks ( or any other marks, for that matter) on the bayonet. And it DOES look pretty intimidating!:evil:

[Coyote Rider]

Why you would want to do this is another question, though...

Dang. Now, my wife can't understand why I like things that make loud bangs and sulfurous smells...

[Coyote Rider]

Many civilian arms were modified for bayonets during the Revolution. You cut back the forearm, if necessary, and silver solder or braze a stud on. You need a bayonet with the correct size sleeve. You cut an dogleg-shaped channel in the sleeve and that's basically it. It's not incredibly secure but it is relatively quick and effective.
Thank you. Sounds like the design you're describing is for a round barrel, though, and I have an octagonal barrel.

[DutchmanDick]

Check out my earlier post about Confederate-used civilian guns. Muzzle lathe-turned round, and a lug brazed to the side of the barrel. Saw a photo in a book about Confederate weapons I checked out from a library many years ago.

[JNewell]

Yes, but the principle probably applies the same. You just need an octagonal collar. BTW, you probably don't need to cut the forearm back (and :D you probably don't need me to tell you that) - the arms of the period were often stocked essentially to the muzzle. I would thing a blacksmith of modest ability could take care of the collar, and you could braze a bayonet onto it?

[Rachen]

I don't like the looks of today's "tacticool" rifles. Heck, I have even seen some AR-15s that are so loaded down with tacticool gear, that I couldn't even see the original rifle under all that expensive gadgetry. Now that is just sad. Not to mention the fact that you won't even get to use half of all that junk in a real battle, some folks spend A LOT more on tacticool gear than the original rifle.
A common AR-15 from Bushmasters or Sabre might cost around $800.
The tacticool gear thats mounted on it might cost around $5000 or more.

Now if there is one thing a military rifle MUST have, it is a bayonet.


Not only the bayonet has been a proven tool, it is responsible for saving the lives of countless soldiers in battle.

As a student of strategies and tactics, I have seen many instances where the enemy rushes at his opponent in a headlong rush, sometimes so fast that the defender has no time to fire accurately. Automatic weapons fire and semiauto fire might hit the enemy, but most of the rounds fired would simply miss, and hit something farther back. A bolt action or single action rifle would simply be helpless, since you only have one round in a given time, and if you miss with that round, you're screwed for good.
When the enemy, whether it be a Nazi SS killer, a Japanese soldier, or a Bloods or Crips fanatic rushes at you in aheadlong rush, there is no time for aimed fire, only fight with pure instinct will gaurantee your (possible) survival.
This is where the bayonet is most essential.
It is a defensive weapon, and made for defensive purposes. Most of time, during a headlong rush, the enemy might even impale him/herself on the bayonet, if they did not see the bayonet when they are charging. When a split second equals survival or death, there is only time for instinct.

The reason why I bring this up is because the headlong rush has been used effectively by many antagonists in history, from World War II to the tactics of modern day urban gangbangers, plenty of videos from vicious gang attacks on innocent civilians that show the scumbags using headlong rush tactics. One of the only effective ways to counter that type of assault is a sharp instrument that relies on instinctive pointing rather than trigger or action control. Such as a spear, or a bayoneted rifle.

That is also one of the reasons why the Soviets used spike/socket bayonets with their Mosin Nagants during the War. They were less visible than the German and Japanese saber-type bayonets, along with their tremendous fixing lugs.
When the Germans charged the Soviets, they would simply impale themselves on the long, needlelike projections, without even being aware that their opponents' defensive line is bristling with bayonets like a porcupine.
The Mosin Nagant bayonet looks very similar to the Enfield spike bayonets of the War For Southern Independance.

This video is called "The Sacred War". There are pictures of Mosin Nagants with their socket type bayonets. A 17th century design, they are still extremely effective and popular well into the twentieth century.
And the song is one of my favorites.
WARNING: SOME GRAPHIC AND DISTURBING CONTENT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEKUtus5LlQ

Precisely on 00:50, 2:00 and 2:11

[mykeal]

So, instead of a .357 SP-101, I should be carrying an AR-15 with a bayonet? Or perhaps more to the subject of the forum, a Lyman GPR with a bayonet?

[Rachen]

So, instead of a .357 SP-101, I should be carrying an AR-15 with a bayonet? Or perhaps more to the subject of the forum, a Lyman GPR with a bayonet?

No, but to all owners of military style rifles. Instead of investing so much $$$ in tacticool stuff, why not get a bayonet instead? Something that is actually worthwhile, and might save your life during a home invasion situation where you would not want to fire too many random and wild rounds.

And also a bayonet is a great multi tool as well. Tent stake, candlestick, campfire roasting holder, entrenching tool, etc...

I am just not a fan of all that super mall ninja stuff that is flooding the shooting sports market.

[Coyote Rider]

Thank you Rachen, now I want a bayonet more than ever. Never thought about using one for roasting weenies, but hey, why not!

Anyway, I'm not entirely clear on the concept of how to attach a bayonet to a Lyman, despite all the helpful posts about about octagonal collars and brazed lugs. Can anyone post a photo of what it would look like, or a scan of a sketch? If it's not too much trouble... :D

Thanks

[arcticap]

You could simply sharpen up an extra long steel ramrod to have a spike tip and insert it into your ramrod holder. Then you could even shoot with it in place.
Sure it might pull out if you ever actually impale somebody with it, but how many people do you plan on actually impaling?
Or you might be able to make a similar thin steel bayonet & stud that simply snugly fits into the ramrod ferrules, and then fix it there with screws or some other kind of attachment method. All you need is a piece of steel rod of the right diameter. If you make it out it out of brass, the back end could still serve as a functional ramrod.
Hey, necessity is the mother of invention, so why not try to be creative while doing it crudely & cheap at the same time? Plus it's more period correct that way! It's mostly for appearance anyway, but if you do want to make it more functional than you're going to need to make a more secure attachment method for the rod or stud. That shouldn't be too difficult, maybe even a simple cotter pin or a bent nail through the rod (like behind the ferrule) would suffice so that the whole works doesn't back out so easily after "the impaling".
If you do mount a nice thin spike bayonet low enough under the muzzle, then you can always cook that weenie by using the muzzle blast while shooting!:D

[Rachen]

I use spike bayonets to roast weenies, marshmallows, you name it on campfires all the time. They also make good campfire pokers.

I also build my own tent, using rubberized fabric that I cut, shape, sew, stitch, and align by myself. Whenever I use this tent for trips out in the woods and mountains, I use several spike bayonets (Enfield) as tent stakes.

I am not sure about roasting weenies with the muzzleflash, unless you like them seasoned with BP Flavor:D

[historynut]

I believe that less than 1% of wounds during the American Civil War were from edged weapons (bayonet, sabre, sword, knife). More often than not the attackers were either decimated by rifle musket fire (and accompanying artillery) or gave up before they could close OR the defenders broke and fled rather than face the point of the bayonet. Obviously there were many instances of hand to hand combat but in the grand scheme of things this was rare. More often than not the bayonet was used as a tent stake, candleholder, coffee grinder, bent to form a pot hook, digging impliment, discarded (yes, you'd get fined for missing equipment), etc.

I'm speaking of the triangular bayonet here, but it applies to all types in some form/fashion... If you are fixing a bayonet on your long arm I would suggest that you practice the dry loading procedure many, many times before you go to the range (if you're doing the ACW use Hardees or Caseys and learn the 9 count). If you elect to shoot with the bayonet fixed when you go to the range BE VERY CAREFUL (especially if you're left handed and don't practice the drill with your right hand as soldiers were taught) as it is pretty easy to snare your hand, fingers, sleeve, etc. if you're not paying attention while ramming the charge home. Most bayonets of the ACW period were designed to be mounted with the right handed shooter in mind and as you load (assuming you are doing it per the manual of arms) the bayonet will be to your left and when you go to "ready", rotating the weapon in the process, the bayonet will then be on the right.

Also, don't waste your money on cheap "made in India" reproduction bayonets if you plan on actually using it for anything other than display. They will bend under the slightest load. Original bayonets, in my experience, fit the repro rifles better as well. While the price on originals has gone up, and there ar some who will flame me for suggesting the use of an original piece, you won't be sorry spening the extra $ especially if you are a reenactor where you'll use the thing in camp and field as the boys of '61-'65 did. Repro: display = OK.

Now, I'm out of my element here as I'm not an expert in these weapons, but weren't the KY and PA rifles designed primarily for game? A bayonet is designed for humans. While we all know that the KY and PA rifles were used against men I would imagine that it would be more trouble than it was worth to fabricate a bayonet for practical use during the time. Of course someone did it, but...

In any event, have fun and follow your own path, but do be careful if you decide to fix a bayonet for anything other than display. The weight, balance and everything is effected and of course there's that pointy thing that can stick you, or a friend, in the eye!

[Coyote Rider]

Huh. I never thought about how much of an adjustment charging a muzzle-loader with a bayonet in place would require.:scrutiny:

[StrawHat]

I have seen more than a few civilian arms worked over to hold a bayonet. All the ones I have seen/handled had the muzzle end turned round and a lug attached.

All the ones that had seen any kind of use with the bayonet also showed stock damage where they broke at the wrist.

Considering the hassles involved (point of impact is also different with the bayonet attached) would not a 4" or 5" belt knife be more useful?

[CajunBass]

and there ar some who will flame me for suggesting the use of an original piece, you won't be sorry spening the extra $ especially if you are a reenactor where you'll use the thing in camp and field as the boys of '61-'65 did. Repro: display = OK.

Back when I was a kid, call in 1961-1965, and growing up in rural Hanover County, Virginia on the grounds of "The Seven Days", and Cold Harbor, that's what we did. Things like bayonets were so common only the best were saved for display or sale. We kids got the really rusted/beat up ones to use as tent pegs, candle holders, or just for a "long pointy thing." (My grandfather and uncles were Civil War relic hunters.)

Nobody ever got impaled or put an eye out as our mothers often predicted either. :D

[historynut]

I've got an original non-dug, non-battlefield pick-up Enfield bayonet with my CW reenacting kit somewhere. I paid the princely sum of $100 for it about 15 years go. The thing was, and I suppose still is, beautiful with a dull grey patina and few pits. The thing was so stong that you could affix it to your rifle, jam it into the ground and use it as a tent pole all night long. Tried that with a repro bayonet before I was wiser and it took about 5 minutes for the weight of the rifle to bend the "made in India" bayonet about 45 degrees. :rolleyes:

My admonition regarding safety when loading the rifle makes sense once you try to do it. It's not any more difficult - you just have to be aware that your arm is moving up and down while ramming and there is a potentially large pointy thing in close proximity, parallel to your motion.

Given that you're thinking of modifiying a weapon that wasn't designed for a bayonet AND you're designing a bayonet for said weapon at the same time, I would take my time and make sure it's designed with proper clearance for your hand and arm, etc. Measure twice - cut once. For instance, the direction of the "dog leg" cut in the socket will determine which side of the barrel the bayonet is on while loading. This becomes important when you go to load assuming that you load a Lyman with the rammer towards you and the butt on the ground between your feet like a military arm.

Let us know how you proceed and share some pictures!

[Coyote Rider]

If the project ever gets beyond the wishful thinking phase, I will definitely post some pictures.

[davecampperry]

For home defense, a mounted bayonet is priceless. Jim Bowie said something to the effect that many a man would charge into rifle or even cannon fire without much thought, but puke at the sight of cold steel.