[rbernie]

I'm not much of a shotgun guy. In fact, most of you would pretty much call me a moe-ron about scatterguns. And you'd be right. Still, I like to dabble in stuff. I've acquired, over the years, a couple of semi's and a couple of pumps. But I have no doubles.

Today, my FLG handed me a 311 to handle. Other than the fact that it was heavier than expected, I was pretty much OK with what I saw. When he takes it back to hang back on the wall, he proceeds to tell me how much harder a SxS is to shoot than a OU or a repeater.

Having no practical experience in the matter, I'm forced to ask - why? What makes a SxS harder to shoot than any other form of shotgun?

[Okiecruffler]

I think alot of people get distracted by the wide sight plane. And they definately swing different that a single barrel. But I shoot the SXS better than any single.

[romeo212000]

Its a different sight plane but if you get used to it you will break more clays off of the front because of it.

[ArmedBear]

Other than the fact that it was heavier than expected

I'd say, hang it BACK on the wall. A slug is a slug is a slug, doesn't matter what kind of shotgun it is.

It's not fair to base your impressions on a gun that feels too heavy right off the bat, IMO.

[Okiecruffler]

SXS's are heavy, it's what gives them that nice smooth swing and follow thru.

[Fred Fuller]

Interesting.

I never had problems hitting stuff with my 311... (26" IC and Mod). Good thing I didn't know it was supposed to be hard to hit with, I guess.

lpl/nc

[TAB]

There is also the double triger aspect. Some people can use them, some can't. Part of that is what your use to. Then again, some people just can't get it, no matter how much they try.

[Shawnee]

Not to insult anyone, but the 311 is mostly the AMC Gremlin of SxS's.It's serviceable and it has two barrels, and yes it is overweight.

Shooting a (good) SxS is delightfully easy once a person learns the right mechanics. It just takes some reasearch and/or good coaching to make learning it easy and progress relatively fast. Probably the biggest element is understanding the importance of balance as the SxS is not too forgiving of balance/swing errors and of being horsed around with the arms.
Also, because they are so sensitive to balance, (and grip pressure, et al) they are also sensitive to fit. And that's something many of us in America do not pay enough attention to.
Others have mentioned the sighting plane and it does take some attention because it is very easy to develop the habit of canting the SxS and that can cause misses.

In general, the SxS is a finesse firearm. Are they "better" or "worse" than anything else? - that's entirely subjective. On any given day a shotgun of any given type can be the "best", or the "worst.

I've loved my SxSs but over the years I've noticed that whenever my skill got better - my SxSs were already at that level waiting on me.

;)

[BozemanMT]

it's hard to hit targets with a SxS?????? :rolleyes:
Dang, I better go get back my O/U's that I can't hit the side of a barn with for my trusty SxS.
It's different than an O/U or a pump, but no better, no worse, just different.

Just gotta practice with 'em.
Tain't the gun, it's the shooter.

[Okiecruffler]

"Not to insult anyone, but your go to shotgun is a piece of excrement"

Get real. You don't understand the 311 and it's kin. It wasn't made for some tweed wearing product of generations of incest. It was made for the common man. The guy who worked 18 hours a day and only quit because it was too dark to see. The man who took a break on the weekend to go to church and not much else. The man who planned on taking his vacation in heaven because he'd only have time for one after he'd passed on. They were made stout because that man wasn't just buying that shotgun for himself, but also his children and their children.
A gremlin? Only to those who don't know any better.

[Dave McCracken]

Opinions are going to vary widely on whether a SxS is hard to hit with.

Those folks who love the game guns a la British best would vehemently disagree.

I've been able to do a decent job with darn near every SxS I've shot.

A couple, including Mom's farm sale sawed off once redone and a French boxlock, were terrific at finding the right lines on game birds.

Even my Lupara, heavy by SxS standards, did well once lightened.

With a SxS, I do note that most are less than muzzle heavy compared to repeaters or long barreled O/Us, so more attention must be paid to keeping the swing going. Little inertia there to do the job for us.

And that is why few SxS shotguns are found on clays ranges these days.

[MCgunner]

SXS's are heavy, it's what gives them that nice smooth swing and follow thru.

What? Most SxSs I've handled are LIGHT and more importantly muzzle light, balance between the hands. That makes 'em quick to the shoulder for flushing game. Depends on the gun, I guess, and I've never handled a really high end side by side. I'm one of those guys the 311 was built for. LOL I picked up a 10 gauge side by side a goose guide I was hunting with hand, once, and WOW, that thing was about 12 lbs. But, consider its function and use. It was a GOOSE gun and a 10 gauge for Christ's sake. But, normally, the SxSs are NOT smooth of swing.

With a SxS, I do note that most are less than muzzle heavy compared to repeaters or lng barreled O/Us, so more attention must be paid to keeping the swing going. Little inertia there to do the job for us.

Exactly and this is the down side of the "between the hands" balance, requires a lot of concentration to swing the gun smoothly, at least when you're getting used to it. I've found in the duck marsh that hunting with a pump one day and going out with a side by side the next can really mess you up if you don't realize this. This is how I learned this particular fact about side by sides. "Dangit, I used to hit everything I shot at with this damned thing. What's wrong with it?" LOL

This might be the reason the guy thought it was hard to shoot a side by side, don't know. To me, if I just concentrate on swing and smooth follow through, I can switch guns now without a lot of heartache. I've become a better shotgunner (which ain't sayin' a whole lot) understanding such things as this. Helps to THINK about what you are doing sometimes. I have this little 20 gauge Spartan now with 20" barrels for dove and have used it on teal. I knew going in with this thing I was going to have a real shock for balance and would have to concentrate right off on swing. I was a little concerned it might not be too good on birds for its extreme rearward balance, but I adapted to it last season and shot it very well, actually. I'd prefer a 28" gun, but it wouldn't fit in the saddle bags of my GoldWing with 28" barrels. That was the whole purpose of buying it, otherwise I HAD a 28" side by side already in 12 gauge.

[Virginian]

A SxS is hard to shoot because all the "gurus" pushing Over and Unders since the 1960s have been telling you they're hard to shoot.
I started out with a SxS and of course never had a problem, and it always amazed me to hear people say they cannot shoot a SxS.
Now I can't shoot an O/U bigger than a slim 20 gauge. My left eye sees that huge barrel shape and transmits "cringe" to my brain.
There is nothing inherently wrong with any basic shotgun design.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I keep my SXS 12ga Mag Coach Gun leaned in corner near my bed (Makarov in holster velcroed to bedpost) in case I need it. it is the only firearm I own that I feel invincible when holding it.

[Okiecruffler]

Maybe it's because I basically learned on one, but I can feel the weight and balance of a SXS where as the single tubes feel like the weight is shifting around. I find that I slow down in the follow thru of the swing with a single. Maybe it's a balance thing, dunno.

[Funderb]

it's always hard to go to a different system or setup when shooting.
change is hard, the gun is not the problem.

[rbernie]

While poking around at a local shop this morning, I found a Sears & Roebuck-branded AyA 12ga (Model 433.512.371) in reasonable shape. The furniture had some noticable handling marks and a few bruises, but the case-hardening on the receiver was in good shape and the action seemed very tight and well fitted. It's got 27.5" long Full/Mod barrels with 2.75 chambers. It balances about half an inch in front of the hinge pin, and it's fairly light and quick to shoulder. It's not quite as snappy as a 20ga Yildiz that I handled at my local Academy, but it feels pretty lively. The AyA action looks like this (only not as clean):

http://www.glennreasportguns.com/images/AyA-4-53.jpg

It was a consignment piece, and for an OTD price of less than three bills I figured it'd be worth trying out. I almost passed because of the full choke on the left tube, but in the end I elected to try it out and see how it works.

Thanks to all for their comments. I'm looking forward to seeing how I like it. :D

[rcmodel]

I was gonna say the reason the guy thought it was hard to shoot was because it was probably choked Full & Fullest!

With todays shotcup wads, it probably will be hard to shoot, because it shoots like a rifle!

rcmodel

[MCgunner]

I was gonna say the reason the guy thought it was hard to shoot was because it was probably choked Full & Fullest!

That could be, too. LOL My old Sarasqueta (a Spanish gun) is mod/full and just too much choke for anything I'd use it for now days. I bought it for waterfowl and it worked back when there was only lead shot for waterfowl. But, it's too tight for dove shooting. I'd like to find a good gunsmith that could open those chokes up to I/C, mod maybe. Anyone got any suggestions where to send the barrels for that? I hardly ever shoot that thing anymore and it's a good shooting old gun.

[Regolith]

I shot a 20ga 311 when I was younger, and could never hit anything with it. I attribute that to poor fit and inexperience, however. I couldn't hit anything with the 20ga Browning Auto-5, either.

[ArmedBear]

LOL

The guys who shoot H&H doubles in England might be inbred, but so are a lot of these old American shotguns.

Okiecruffler, a Farmall may be a helluva tractor, but if you can beat even a base-model BMW 3-series around a sports car track with it, well, I guess I'll eat my hat.

Same difference.

And no, I don't have a BMW. I drive a Jeep and I like it. But that doesn't make the Jeep a Porsche.

Get real. You don't understand the 311 and it's kin. It wasn't made for some tweed wearing product of generations of incest. It was made for the common man. The guy who worked 18 hours a day and only quit because it was too dark to see. The man who took a break on the weekend to go to church and not much else. The man who planned on taking his vacation in heaven because he'd only have time for one after he'd passed on. They were made stout because that man wasn't just buying that shotgun for himself, but also his children and their children.
A gremlin? Only to those who don't know any better.

[axeman_g]

gremlin... no. Buick... maybe... but it would be a regal not some other model.

SXS are so good for me! I can thit crud with an o/u, dont know why but the swing just seems so different... I can move and swing a sxs easily, I love the simplicity and the wider sight plane. If you have one that is set up so the clay or bird is sitting just on top of the barrels, on a no lead shot, then it is deadly.

I had a Simpson-Suhl post war 16g that I was murder with. The stock cracked, and I arrogantly thought I could just get another gun. I have missed it ever since.

[MCgunner]

311? How bout Model A pickup?

Had a friend that had one. They ain't THAT bad. :D I liked it, but it weren't real pretty to look at and was a might heavy compared to my Sarasqueta 12 gauge and the 311 was a 16. It didn't kick too bad, though.

[uk roe hunter]

side by sides aren't hard to shoot. One of the other guys mentioned that we have been told since 1960 that they are.

I have a couple of sidebysides, an auto, a single and an ou. I shoot best with one of my sxs guns. that is becuase it fits me better. Thats the truth in this. if it fits you will shoot it better. Of course if you are in the position that you can afford to buy a gun and have it fitted then i believe that an o/u might be better for trap shooting.

I can't afford that but my sxs happens to fit me better.

steve

(English but not in bred... redneck)

[AZHighCountry]

Crap, I didn't know SXS's where hard to shoot and apparently neither did my 23 year old son. I grew up shooting a 311 and my son grew up shooting the same gun. We both shoot it very, very well and when I told him to pick one of my shotguns for his next gift that's the one he picked out of 9 shotguns including 3 Wingmasters and an 1100. Already found another 311 to replace the one he is taking.

I honestly think the SXS is easier to shoot for cross shooting doves etc. The wider site plain and added weight seem to make it easier for new shooters to follow through. I guess it works for some people and doesn't for others. I shoot eaqually well with my Wingmaster and my SXS. Never been able to shoot the A5 design well myself.

[chas08]

What is this wider sight plane you speak of? When I shoulder any of the three we own, all I see is "Bead" :confused: They have not been tweaked or tuned in any way either.

[TAB]

Lots of shooters never look at the beed, they use the barrels.

I know I use my barrel as a tool to judge leading. a sxs is 2.5 times as wide as a single barreled shot gun.

[MCgunner]

I've always just pointed the gun down the rib just like my auto and my pump. The barrels are out there, don't pay 'em any attention.

[ArmedBear]

If I'm looking at the barrels, I'm missing my target. Can't see where someone has time to use the barrel to judge the lead; there are surely much better ways to hit the target.

One way or t'other, I think that, if a SxS is hard to shoot, it either doesn't fit the shooter, or it's a poorly-balanced POS (same as any other shotgun that's hard to shoot). There's a reason people pay ungodly prices for the things, and it's not because they're hard to shoot.

[TAB]

Crossing targets when your using the "pull thru method" not really practical for games, but very pratical for hunting when you get cuaght off guard.

[KevininPa]

Good thing nobody told me.

[ArmedBear]

When I get caught off guard and do that, and one shot last fall sticks in my mind, I sure don't notice the barrel. Speed of swing vs. speed of target is all that works for me.

[Okiecruffler]

Well, all I see is the bead, and that only kinda subconsciously. But everyone who shoulders one of doubles makes some remark on how wide the barrel looks. I figure they weren't learned right.
I think most people shoot a single better than a double just because they learnt on a single.

[ArmedBear]

Well, all I see is the bead, and that only kinda subconsciously. But everyone who shoulders one of doubles makes some remark on how wide the barrel looks. I figure they weren't learned right.

LOL

My thoughts, too.

[SimpleIsGood229]

Originally posted by rbernie:
Having no practical experience in the matter, I'm forced to ask - why? What makes a SxS harder to shoot than any other form of shotgun?
It probably didn't fit him worth a darn.

[Dave Markowitz]

I shoot better with a SxS, based on my experience with a Pedersoli 12 gauge double and a Stoeger Uplander 20 bore, vs. the pumps and single shots I've fired.

YMMV.

[oneounceload]

use the beads, if you must, for practice alignment to check gun fit...once there, forget about them and focus on the bird.....SXS's are more inclined to intuitive reactionary shooting..not "target" shooting, and therefore need to be properly fitted and balanced to really obtain the maximum benefit of their configuration....once that is obtained, they aren't harder to shoot, just harder to put down......;)

[BigGunsMoreFun]

I've done a lot of shotgun shooting with many different shotguns. As far as I am concerned the SxS is by far the best clay gun out there. :what:

Semi-autos are nice but they are a pain in the rear to take apart and clean properly. Too many moving parts that get fouled up over time. :scrutiny:

I for some reason can shoot skeet, trap and sporting clays with pretty dang good accuracy with most any SxS, semi-auto or pump gun. I'm not sure why but I can't hit the broad side of a barn with an O/U standing 20 feet from it. :rolleyes:

Shooting skeet I generally hit over 20 out of 25 clays every round. Most of the time I get close to the 25 mark. When I use an O/U (and I've tried several and practiced plenty with them) I am lucky if I hit 10 out of 25 and that is on a good day. :p

I have never in my life handled and shot a more awkward, front heavy, piece of junk (IMHO) than an O/U shotgun. I'd do better chasing the clays and trying to swat them out of the sky using the O/U as a bat. :cuss:

My 2 cents. I love them SxS shotguns. Y'all can keep the rest. :fire:

Molon Labe,
Joe
:cool:

[BruceB]

My #1 shotgun is a Beretta GR4, a truly all-purpose and beautiful 12-gauge side-by-side.

It has 28" barrels choked full and modified ( NO TUBES), and they wear a nice ventilated rib. The gun weighs exactly seven pounds and balances precisely on the hinge pin. It has selective auto ejectors, and generally suits this shotgunner's dreams right down to the ground.
The gun was bought in 1970, and an inflation calculator says it cost me $4100 in today's funds. The action has 100% coverage of genuine engraving, and a silver bird is inlaid into the opening lever. It also has fine European walnut, well fitted, finished and checkered.

It handles like lightning. One day we were leaving our vehicle to roust some Ptarmigan, when one of the birds flushed from UNDER the car! Snap-shooting from the hip at about six feet, my Beretta completely removed its head without any calculations or aiming whatever.

It cost a bit of money, considering my income in those days of 38 years ago. However, I've never regretted the purchase for even one day. The gun has shared adventures with me in uplands, in duck blinds, in boats, and in walking-up ptarmigan in temps far below zero. It's a trusted companion and has fired thousands of rounds at game and targets.

The gun has served in swamps, in the High Arctic, in blinds, in ice-storms and dust and in
vehicles. It worked so well that we bought another one for my wife.

A good-quality shotgun WILL stand-up very nicely. with just the merest amount of care and consideration,

We have other shotguns, designed for more-utilitarian purposes, but our Berettas have the place of honor on our racks and in our hearts.

"Side-by-Sides are heavy, awkward and won't shoot." PHOOOOOEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[BozemanMT]

I've done a lot of shotgun shooting with many different shotguns. As far as I am concerned the SxS is by far the best clay gun out there.

Semi-autos are nice but they are a pain in the rear to take apart and clean properly. Too many moving parts that get fouled up over time.

I for some reason can shoot skeet, trap and sporting clays with pretty dang good accuracy with most any SxS, semi-auto or pump gun. I'm not sure why but I can't hit the broad side of a barn with an O/U standing 20 feet from it.

Shooting skeet I generally hit over 20 out of 25 clays every round. Most of the time I get close to the 25 mark. When I use an O/U (and I've tried several and practiced plenty with them) I am lucky if I hit 10 out of 25 and that is on a good day.

I have never in my life handled and shot a more awkward, front heavy, piece of junk (IMHO) than an O/U shotgun. I'd do better chasing the clays and trying to swat them out of the sky using the O/U as a bat.

My 2 cents. I love them SxS shotguns. Y'all can keep the rest.

Molon Labe,
Joe

Me too!!!!!!!!!!
Now some people might say I can't hit anything anyway, but I know better :scrutiny: I'm much better from low gun mount SxS than pre-mounting a O/U, which should be faster and better. (plus of course, you get extra manly points for working from low gun ;) )

[ArmedBear]

I have never in my life handled and shot a more awkward, front heavy, piece of junk (IMHO) than an O/U shotgun. I'd do better chasing the clays and trying to swat them out of the sky using the O/U as a bat.

Sounds like you tried a Citori. It's not fair to condemn O/U's based on a specific design that feels like a 4 foot length of waterlogged 4x4.

Not all O/U's are Brownings clunkers, just like not all guns with barrels next to each other are finely-balanced works of art.:)

The difference is, some popular O/U's that people think are great guns are god-awful clunkers, whereas there are really only two types of SxS guns on the market: guns people know are cheap, and damn-good-to-world-class ones.

For example, I've got a little SKB 20/26" O/U that evokes the reaction "feels like a side-by-side" whenever someone tries it. What they're really saying is, "Man, this thing feels well-balanced, naturally-pointing and quick, not like my Brownings."

The top-locking Greener crossbolt design minimizes the amount of metal in the receiver. The low profile points well, and puts the shooter's forward hand in a much better position than with tall and fat O/U's.
http://www.skbshotguns.com/images/old%20website/barrel-group-o_u.jpg

Beretta uses a different design with similar objectives; a steel frame 686/687 field gun weighs about a pound less in 12 Gauge than most of its competitors. My 12G/28" Beretta O/U works very well from low-gun in the field and at the range, and has also evoked the comment, "feels a lot like a SxS."

That doesn't keep me from looking at a SxS for my next purchase, of course...:)

And either way, I've had to save up and/or sell off other things to buy any of this stuff.

[Hawk]

Ah, AB
There's a reason people pay ungodly prices for the things, and it's not because they're hard to shoot.
Hard to argue with that. They represent some of the most breathtakingly expensive firearms ever produced. Unlikely they'd command those kinds of tariffs if they were harder to use than a 200.00 alternative.

Interesting how personal assessments differ though. I never noticed the 525 being particularly heavy or large when I was picking out my first O/U. I didn't buy it and went with the 687 but this was a "fit" thing that I attributed more to cast-off vs no cast-off. I'm no expert on these matters but it seems I'd have noticed something other than the subtle differences I did notice. Maybe not. I still don't own one but the one I tried wasn't near being the railroad tie some make it out to be.

The D'Italia "felt" better to me than the Silver Hawk and I gather I'm near unique in that regard (maybe not - my transfer dealer says she's been seeing a lot of D'Italias recently).

The Cynergy 20/28 has so ingratiated itself I'm near forgiving the perforations. I'm wondering now how a 12/26 field model fits.

The Dallas Beretta Gallery is still calling your name...

[Srigs]

Never had a problem with mine. Just focus on the front bead. But from the other end (not like the pics) otherwise it could get messy :what:

http://esrigs.home.comcast.net/~esrigs/guns/SXS5.JPG

http://esrigs.home.comcast.net/~esrigs/guns/SXS6.JPG

[Striker]

I've loved my SxSs but over the years I've noticed that whenever my skill got better - my SxSs were already at that level waiting on me.

So true. Validates the philosophy of BA/UU/R regardless of the platform used.

[Shawnee]

That we refer to it as "swinging" a shotgun is an unfortunate habit because it raises the image of swinging a ball bat, and that isn't the way to move a shotgun.... especially a typical length SxS that is (usually) "light" in the front compared to other types.

Many people begin their shotgunning career with pumps, autos, or maybe the 28" O/U. These guns are long and have some tangible weight forward.
It's very common with these guns for beginners to get in the habit of performing the "swing" mostly by horsing the gun around with their hands/arms/shoulders. You can watch this at any local Skeet shoot.

Then they pick up a SxS and have a difficult time with it - because with its' lighter-forward nature - it MUST be handled correctly - that is the "swing" needs to come mostly from the body's "core" muscles (lower back, abs, and pelvic )augmented by legs and footwork and, very importantly, it has to be controlled and balanced - not jerky and off-balance like some hacker golfer. The hands and arms (and cheek) are the "mounting/aiming apparatus", NOT the "swinging apparatus".

But when people start out and learn that "horse it around with your arms method" - it takes them a goodly while to UNlearn it - whenever they get around to realizing they need to unlearn it.

Anyone who has ever missed a clay while having someone helping them shoot Skeet has been told "Ya lifted your head off the stock".
Sometimes the person lifts their head, but really not too often.
If one watches closely, it is often NOT that they lifted their head from the stock but that the gun was pulled away (however slightly) from the cheek because the person shifted in mid-movement from using their core muscles to using their arms/shoulders to move the gun and that immediately makes the gun shoot NOT where the shooter is looking.
One thing an instructor can do to help the student with that is tell them (about 1000 times) to "Keep your head down".
But a better thing to tell them is that the pressure of their cheek on the comb of the stock must be the same all the way through the "swing". That makes them focus on using their hands and arms to control that cheek pressure rather than to flail the gun around - that's what their hands/arms are for, and they can't do both at the same time.

:cool: