[saturno_v]

This rerm refers to a cartridge still loaded within SAAMI specs for that caliber or exceeding them??

In terms of stress to the gun there is difference between two loads generating the same peak pressure but one with an heavier bullet??
What about difference in powder burning rate?? Same pressure but one burning longer...hat is more stressful to the gun??

Thanks for the expert knowledge!!!:D:D:D

[raz-0]

If i had to hazard a guess, in the old days, before SAAMI there was proof testing. It was done by proof houses. They would take a gun, and run an over-spec load through it. If the gun survived, it was proven to be safe.

My guess is that full house load means a loadig of the cartridge right up to the proof house threshold.

just my guess though, we'll see if i am right.

[Virginian]

"Full House" to me means loaded to the SAMMI limit. In any cases where the limit has gone down, it means the old limit.
Guns are like anything else. As long as the peak stress remains below the elastic limit, regardless of the length of time of the peak stress, there will be no negative effect. If the elastic limit is exceeded, then the length of time does become a factor, because the material is in fact stretching while the stress is over the elastic limit. Bullet weight has an impact on pressure, as does powder burn rate, but pressure is what generates stress.

[Steve C]

Its an imprecise descriptive term indicating a full power maximum or near maximum load.

[Bearhands]

What a great question Saturno!....... a full house load is, IMHO... SAAMI limits. The "Hot" full house loads are just that.... "hot". Those who like to "test the waters'..... should do so and NEVER complain about abuse or wear on their weapons.
There are always folks who'd like to re-invent the "wheel"
If the shoe fits.... shoot it.... If you need more.. well then, "go Hollywood" and reap the rewards (or not).

[Jim March]

The term "full house" shows up connected most to the 357Magnum cartridge.

As better metal came out, 357 guns got smaller and smaller, to the point where J-Frame and similar "snubby" 357s are common. Ammo has been downloaded for controllability in these smaller critters. The most extreme is the S&W 12.5oz Scandium 357 5-shooter which is so light the bullets are being yanked out of the shells in some cases just from recoil. I dare anybody to shoot a box of really high-performance 357 in such a mini-beast.

BUT if you've got either strong wrists or a big enough gun, you can go back to the original full power levels the cartridge started at - which we call "full house".

This downloaded-performance 357 thing started all the way back in the 50's with the K-Frame S&W and has progressed from there. By now, most 357 guns (and their shooters) are uncomfortable shooting more than a small amount of full house ammo at a time and many can't take any.

This process is really just starting in the 44Mag (S&W's 26oz Scandium 44) but it's nowhere near as advanced. Likewise, relatively few 9mm, 40S&W and similar caliber guns have been made that cannot really maximize their own caliber.

[loneviking]

Jim, your explanation is right on the money and these smaller lighter guns are the reason 38 spc. are much easier to use in them. I have strong wrists and a big Colt, but I sure wouldn't want to shoot my 145 gr. Winchester Silvertips out of a 2 inch snubby! :eek:

[Rexster]

Actually, the 145-grain Sivertip in .357 is one of those milder loads; it is well under full-house. It is my preferred load for my SP101 snubbies and my skimpy-gripped Speed Six. I normally only carry the "full-house" 125-grain Federals in my GP100 sixguns.

[loneviking]

Wait....I need to look at my ballistics chart after work. I didn't think the 125gr. Remington was more powerful than the Silvertip loads. I've fired the 125 gr. Remington in the past and don't seem to remember a difference. Hmmm, time to buy some new ammo and try some tests....

[TargetTerror]

1) Find the exact load that will blow your gun up.
2) Now back off a couple 1/10s of a grain. That is your full-house load.

I usually tend to skip step 1 and just assume that the loading manuals have dealt with that issue for me. :D

[Jim March]

TargetTerror: no, that's not how it works.

The lightest 357Mag wheelgun made at 12.5oz will still hold together with the nastiest 800ft/lb monster loads by Buffalo Bore, Doubletap and Grizzly.

It may not do so for LONG, I would doubt it could take more than 500 to 1,000 absolute tops, esp. the 125gr version. But it'll be a slow death, not a fast one.

Your wrist will give out long before the gun does (and by "give out" I mean "likely need medical attention or a long rest, or both"). And of course some bullets will jump crimp from recoil and tie the gun up before you can get all five off.

That gun isn't heavy enough to make FULL use of it's caliber. Truth be told, nothing under 26oz or so can and it's borderline out to 32oz or so...all this assumes a good grip design that fits your hands well. You can however take a 12.5oz 357 up to at least hot 9mm+P territory and partway into the power realm of the 40S&W if you carefully pick ammo designed not to jump crimp.

My Ruger New Vaquero is 43 ounces(!) and THAT felt uncomfortable with Doubletap's hottest (which is way out past Federal's idea of "full house") until I went to smooth grip panels instead of checkered. This gun is roughly similar in size and heft to an N-Frame S&W which is where the 357 originated, so it's no surprise it can be configured for the original power levels the 357 was designed for.

[TargetTerror]

Jim, I'm going to have to disagree with you. You are certainly correct that not every gun can handle a steady diet of full house loads, and not every shooter can handle a steady diet of them in every gun. But I nonetheless maintain that a full-house load, itself, is nothing more than a load that comes right to the edge of what the gun can handle without immediate failure.

For example, I have a Ruger SBH and SRH in 44 magnum, and I feed them a steady diet of full-house loads (240 gr bullet over 24.0gr H110). They take this load with no problem. Now if I did the same thing with a Model 29 (Dirty Harry's gun), the gun wouldn't explode, but it would shoot loose in not too much time. But that doesn't mean that my load isn't a full-house load per se. It just means that the Model 29 cannot handle a steady diet of full house loads.

Saturno, for all intents and purposes, a full-house load is one that yields the highest velocities/muzzle energy while remaining within SAAMI specs. Buffalo Bore and Double tap have simply managed to squeeze more energy out of the round while staying within SAAMI spec. I believe that used special powders or powder blends that aren't available to private reloaders. (and DON'T EVER mix powders unless you REALLY know what you're doing) Some guns can safely and regularly exceed SAAMI spec (like the Ruger Redhawk in 357, when they made it), but then you are in "inchartered territory" and run at your own risk

[Jim March]

TargetTerror, THIS definition is correct:


Saturno, for all intents and purposes, a full-house load is one that yields the highest velocities/muzzle energy while remaining within SAAMI specs.

When you run past-SAMMI-pressure loads in an abnormally strong gun like your Rugers, you are NOT doing "full house", you're doing "borderline wildcat handloads that exceed SAAMI". Which isn't the same thing.

The definition of "full house" still remains within the realm of SAAMI pressures, but maxes them out. The definition (and pressure level) doesn't vary between guns.

If it did, nobody could walk into a gun shop and buy "full house" ammo (such as Buffalo Bore) safely.

Handloading past SAAMI is it's own thing...which I don't consider all that safe. If you need more power, go to a bigger caliber with more case capacity.

[TargetTerror]

Fair enough

[mainmech48]

Dittoes Mr. March. IMO, anybody who regards the "Maximum" loads in reloading manuals or SAAMI specs to be "conservative suggestions" is just begging for trouble. You may be able to get away with pushing the envelope for a while, but sooner or later something's going to give.

People who do this regularly usually refer to the results as having "bad luck". Go figure.

[Harley Quinn]

Interesting question, I thought it was referring to a mixed load 2/5 s of one and 3/5s of another powder. As in 2 "pair" and 3 of a "kind". :confused: Which gave you a full house load """Hot"""

Primer sets off a fast powder "2/5" and that inturn sets off a slower burning powder "3/5".

:)

[Virginian]

Harley, I think that's what's called a 'dead hand man'.

[Rugerlvr]

Is the Remington Golden Saber .357Mag. 125gr HPJH a "full-house" round?

[Harley Quinn]

Harley, I think that's what's called a 'dead hand man'.

Dead mans hand was two pair... "Aces and Eights":)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man's_hand

[Bearhands]

"When you run past-SAMMI-pressure loads in an abnormally strong gun like your Rugers, you are NOT doing "full house", you're doing "borderline wildcat handloads that exceed SAAMI". Which isn't the same thing.

The definition of "full house" still remains within the realm of SAAMI pressures, but maxes them out. The definition (and pressure level) doesn't vary between guns."

Mr. March has hit the nail on the head read "maxes out SAAMI pressures".

When we start to "push the envelope".... we need to realize that this may be a bad thing.

[Master Blaster]

I have never understood the fascination with shooting loads that exceed SAAMI specs for that caliber.
if .357 isnt enough shoot .44 mag. if thats not enough (and it is for me for anything a handgun can do) then there is .454 cassull. then 500 S&W, and then the .460.

For me .308 rifle follows .44 mag and 12 guage with slugs does the same , BTW those are fired from a rifle or shotgun not a pistol.

A.45 acp will do the self defense job for me, and a .44 mag can go throughthree badguys if you line em up. As far as hunting goes rifle or shotguns do the job beyond standard .44 mag.

Tremendous blast noise and muzzle flash are not a good thing for a self defense gun, I like to be able to see and hear after the first shot. Accurate shot placement is the key in any handgunning situation I may find myself in.

JMHO YMMV

[Jim March]

Is the Remington Golden Saber .357Mag. 125gr HPJH a "full-house" round?

No it's not, it's downloaded in performance some. Rated 1,220fps from a 4" barrel per this page:

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=10480_14658_14743_14907_14748&products_id=74666

...and I've seen other references to it as being a downloaded critter. Mind you, it's a quite decent load for all that, if you don't need full power. I think the similar-powered Cor-Bon DPX125 has it beat by a small amount...

"Full House" by the standards of major manufacturers means at least 1,400fps with a 125gr slug in 357 (from a 4" barrel). Doubletap and Buffalo Bore hit 1,600(!) with Cor-Bon slightly behind last I checked.

As to pushing past SAAMI:

There are some guns where you can to some extent play with the concept. My Ruger New Vaquero's 357 cylinder is beefier than a GP100; the Ruger larger-frame SAs ("44Magnum class frame") in 357 are stronger yet, the rare Redhawk 357s are unbelievably strong and toughest of all is the Freedom Arms five-shot large-frame in 357 (model "353").

That latter can push some downright silly velocities:

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt353.htm

This is load data developed by John Taffin, who KNOWS his stuff, m'kay? But even in this instance, with this information as a guide, you can still screw up: first, powder recipes may have changed slightly since he wrote this (it happens!), and when a cartridge is taken to this extreme tiny fractional increases in powder can yield enormous velocity spikes.

Some of this data involves 200gr slugs doing 1,500fps. That's 44Magnum-class horsepower right there yet it takes a gun significantly STRONGER than a 44Mag (which that FA is!) to cope with these loads.

So right there you're seeing the pattern of diminishing returns in pushing a caliber to the firewall even in a strong gun.

Add to all that, if you were to load this crazy stuff by accident in any lesser gun, including my New Vaquero 357, you've got a hand grenade instead of a gun.

[ZeSpectre]

When we start to "push the envelope".... we need to realize that this may be a bad thing.

An old test pilot once told me "We like to push the envelope, you know, that upper right hand corner of the stress/performance graph. 'Course what we also keep in mind is that's where the postage gets canceled!"

[Big Boomer]

"Full house loads"

1. yes loaded to the max limit of pressure.
2. usually referring to loads that by industry standards and typically available manufactured loads that are well below their limit. Examples of this are 44 Mag, 357 Mag, 10mm, and more

Specialty manufacturers such as Doubletap, Buffalobore, and others load to the absolute max pressure but still within the safe range. This does not mean that it will not accelerate wear and tear on your gun but they are safe.

Some of these loads specify only a specific firearm to be used it (T/C encore or Ruger only models)

If you load a 45 Colt "full house" at 44 Mag pressures in a vaquero or old colt it's very likely that you will blow it to smithereens! If not the first time, shortly thereafter.

Many long time loads are loaded to well within safe levels so that someone that has an "old classic" that is 60 years old or more when metals were not quite as advanced as they are today or as strong loads one of these "proof" loads and sues.

45/70's are like this a lot. Most are safe for Trapdoor rifles from the 1800's while modern rifles can take the same caliber close to 458 lott pressures. These loads would be devastating to older firearms.

Know your weapon, know your ammo!

[Jim March]

Wait: you're talking about some situations that are past "full house". The 45LC+P loads meant for bigger 45LC guns are a classic example, as are the "Marlin only!" 45-70 loads. Those aren't "full house", they're past that point and you bet, if you're out in that performance territory you need to know what your gun can do.

[Rexster]

Just like the term "snubby" revolver, "full house" loads will mean different things to different people. Anytime I have seen a gun writer say "full house" load, he has meant a load at maximum industry-sanctioned pressure. On the internet, I have seen the term used to refer to over-pressure loads, and I do not agree with this, but it is not an exact term anyway, so it really does not matter whether I like it or not.

Regarding Remington 125-grain Golden Sabers, no, they are not full house, but quite mild, and Remington made, and makes, no secret of that in their literature. I also believe, but am not sure, that Remington loaded their scallop-jacketed 125-grain .357 ammo to two different velocities at one time, and once again, made no secret of it.

Federal has, as I recall, consistently loaded their silver-box 125-grain JHC .357 as a full-house load; at one time termed "Classic," I think they dropped that term recently, but it's the same stuff. This stuff is, to say the least, vigorous in lighter-weight weapons, and with my wrists not getting any younger, may well reserve the Federal stuff for my heaviest GP100 sixguns, and sparingly at that.

[Rexster]

I saw a recent post on some forum, in which one member used the term ".357 S&M." I got a laugh out of that, and agree; I wish I could give credit, but can't find that post. A full-house .357 mag is not a kindly load to shoot.